Let's go back to time of Nasir, Tusi, Rumi, how many Muslims were on planet earth at that time, (may be) 300 millions. Now out of 300 millions only 3 souls (may be few more) found real masters. What about rest of Muslim population? Those peasants, farmers, venders, laborers, soldiers were not intellectuals like the names you mentioned. God has not written on the JABEEN of real masters that follow them they are the real ones. It takes time, search, need intellect to distinguish between good and bad masters. Those poor masses did not have time to look for or search real ones. They had to work hard for livelihood to feed their families and look after them. Why God has not devised a system in which every one knows the real masters, instead of looking here and there wasting time!!kmaherali wrote:Through the application of intellect and search for the truth. Nasir Khsraw and Nasiruddin Tusi were not born Ismailis but found the Imam through search. Rumi's master appeared to him when he was ready.swamidada wrote: Apart from Ismails, how can a common person judge or determine for example Swami is a Godman.? What shall be the criteria, standard, or proof? Say Swami is a juggler to trap innocent people then what? NA IDHAR KE RAHEY NA UDHAR KE. Syed Saheb played a trick, hypnotized the group, did those would be followers had ASNAAN IN REAL IN GANAGA MAYYA OR THAT WAS IN SUBCONCIOUS?
can humans BE God?
Is there any historical proof that at time of Syed Saheb Ganges changed the route moved from Banaras to Pirana and then on orders of Syed Saheb went back to its original position (Rishees should have disturbed, who abducted Ganga).kmaherali wrote:He had a serious purpose of conversion. Once the group was convinced that he was a Godman, he restored the Ganges back to its original condition.swamidada wrote: (Just an example) Once Swami also made a point to a group of people. He whistled and his doggi came running near to him. He asked doggi to sit there. Swami then juggled few tricks with doggi to satisfy them. The group was impressed. Then Swami whistled again doggi smiled and ran away.
The notion of Insan al-Kameel, Godman who mediates between God and people is not an easy concept to understand generally. MHI alluded to this when he stated in an interview that mysticism in essence is difficult. That is the reason that the majority of Muslims consider the Prophet as only an ordinary human being who received and communicated Allah's message as a chosen one and had difficulty in accepting Hazarat Ali as his successor.swamidada wrote: Let's go back to time of Nasir, Tusi, Rumi, how many Muslims were on planet earth at that time, (may be) 300 millions. Now out of 300 millions only 3 souls (may be few more) found real masters. What about rest of Muslim population? Those peasants, farmers, venders, laborers, soldiers were not intellectuals like the names you mentioned. God has not written on the JABEEN of real masters that follow them they are the real ones. It takes time, search, need intellect to distinguish between good and bad masters. Those poor masses did not have time to look for or search real ones. They had to work hard for livelihood to feed their families and look after them. Why God has not devised a system in which every one knows the real masters, instead of looking here and there wasting time!!
However there have been individuals such as Rumi and Tusi and many others who have had the intellectual capacity and the motivation to seek out the truth for themselves and have indeed succeeded in this endevour through their Murshids. They then devoted themselves to guide others towards the truth and through them thousands have benefitted and found light through their teachings.
Then we have had genuine spiritual guides such as Pir Satgur Nur and Sayyed Imam Shah who were compelled to perform miracles ti impress upon the people their powers and authority which lead to the conversions.
Hence Allah's mercy has always been available for those who have the capacity and the means to seek out the truth.
These kind of events are difficult to get historical proof of. Nevertheless proof is provided through the impact these had upon people who experienced them. In the case of Sayyed Imam Shah, it led to many people being converted and establishing a living tradition which survives till present.swamidada wrote: Is there any historical proof that at time of Syed Saheb Ganges changed the route moved from Banaras to Pirana and then on orders of Syed Saheb went back to its original position (Rishees should have disturbed, who abducted Ganga).
In India they have traced the route of ancient Sarasvati river mentioned in Rig Veda. They have found the proof of Ram-Situ bridge by using modern scientific tools and images from satellite, then why not one can trace the changing route of Ganges river at time of Syed Imam Shah.kmaherali wrote:These kind of events are difficult to get historical proof of. Nevertheless proof is provided through the impact these had upon people who experienced them.swamidada wrote: Is there any historical proof that at time of Syed Saheb Ganges changed the route moved from Banaras to Pirana and then on orders of Syed Saheb went back to its original position (Rishees should have disturbed, who abducted Ganga).
kmaherali wrote:The notion of Insan al-Kameel, Godman who mediates between God and people is not an easy concept to understand generallyswamidada wrote: Let's go back to time of Nasir, Tusi, Rumi, how many Muslims were on planet earth at that time, (may be) 300 millions. Now out of 300 millions only 3 souls (may be few more) found real masters. What about rest of Muslim population? Those peasants, farmers, venders, laborers, soldiers were not intellectuals like the names you mentioned. God has not written on the JABEEN of real masters that follow them they are the real ones. It takes time, search, need intellect to distinguish between good and bad masters. Those poor masses did not have time to look for or search real ones. They had to work hard for livelihood to feed their families and look after them. Why God has not devised a system in which every one knows the real masters, instead of looking here and there wasting time!!
How many Insaan ul Kamil can be present on planet earth at a time ? In spirituality 'MIRREY JO HUQQ SARKHO'. If the concept of Al Insaanul Kamil is difficult and is not generally understandable then what is fault of general public. If general public lacking in spiritual IQ, It is not their guilt. In my opinion there are two ways to have introduction with Insaanul Kamil. Either he introduce himself or some one else should introduce him to general public.
Why Pirs were compelled to perform miracles to IMPRESS public for conversion? Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali avoided to perform any miracles. Mostly public is superstitious, for time being they follow the path and then they go stray.kmaherali wrote:swamidada wrote: Let's go back to time of Nasir, Tusi, Rumi, how many Muslims were on planet earth at that time, (may be) 300 millions. Now out of 300 millions only 3 souls (may be few more) found real masters. What about rest of Muslim population? Those peasants, farmers, venders, laborers, soldiers were not intellectuals like the names you mentioned. God has not written on the JABEEN of real masters that follow them they are the real ones. It takes time, search, need intellect to distinguish between good and bad masters. Those poor masses did not have time to look for or search real ones. They had to work hard for livelihood to feed their families and look after them. Why God has not devised a system in which every one knows the real masters, instead of looking here and there wasting time!!
Then we have had genuine spiritual guides such as Pir Satgur Nur and Sayyed Imam Shah who were compelled to perform miracles ti impress upon the people their powers and authority which lead to the conversions.
I think the intention behind the miracle was not to make it known to the world at large but to those devoted Hindus who went to the Ganges daily for purification. Sayyed Imam Shah felt that these devoted souls deserved a better form of worship than going to the Ganges and hence performed the miracle for conversion purpose. Otherwise there was no reason to change the course of the Ganges permanently.swamidada wrote: In India they have traced the route of ancient Sarasvati river mentioned in Rig Veda. They have found the proof of Ram-Situ bridge by using modern scientific tools and images from satellite, then why not one can trace the changing route of Ganges river at time of Syed Imam Shah.
However we as Ismailis are required to accept the truth narrated in the Ginan
The number of Insaan al-kameel are very few in relation to the size of the general population, but their role and influence is great. MSMS in one of his Farmans has alluded to the number being 313. Everyone is not born with the same background and capacity to comprehend spiritual mysteries. For example a person who is born and brought up in a Sunni environment would find the notion of Imamat as diificult. On the other hand a person born and brought up as a murid of the Imam would not have a problem understanding Imamat.swamidada wrote:How many Insaan ul Kamil can be present on planet earth at a time ? In spirituality 'MIRREY JO HUQQ SARKHO'. If the concept of Al Insaanul Kamil is difficult and is not generally understandable then what is fault of general public. If general public lacking in spiritual IQ, It is not their guilt. In my opinion there are two ways to have introduction with Insaanul Kamil. Either he introduce himself or some one else should introduce him to general public.
For those who have the right background and intellectual capacity with the intention of personal search, a guide appears to them when they are ready. For example Shams came to Rumi when he was ready. Hence no need to make a public introduction as such
As I indicated earlier, miracles are not performed for entertainment of general public but rather to individuals or groups of individuals who in the judgement of the Pir are ready for conversion.For this reason the Prophet and Hazarat Aly avoided performing miracles generally. But in some situations they have performed. It is well known and recorded that the Prophet split the moon for example.swamidada wrote:Why Pirs were compelled to perform miracles to IMPRESS public for conversion? Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali avoided to perform any miracles. Mostly public is superstitious, for time being they follow the path and then they go stray.
But that miracle was not intended for conversion. That miracle Hadith was recorded many many decades after demise of Prophet and is considered DHAIEF means weak Hadith.kmaherali wrote:It is well known and recorded that the Prophet split the moon for example.swamidada wrote:Why Pirs were compelled to perform miracles to IMPRESS public for conversion? Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali avoided to perform any miracles. Mostly public is superstitious, for time being they follow the path and then they go stray.
Let me clarify your statement first. MSMS USED THE # 313 AS MOMINS AND NOT AS INSAANUL KAMIL in his Farman.kmaherali wrote:The number of Insaan al-kameel are very few in relation to the size of the general population, but their role and influence is great. MSMS in one of his Farmans has alluded to the number being 313.swamidada wrote:How many Insaan ul Kamil can be present on planet earth at a time ? In spirituality 'MIRREY JO HUQQ SARKHO'. If the concept of Al Insaanul Kamil is difficult and is not generally understandable then what is fault of general public. If general public lacking in spiritual IQ, It is not their guilt. In my opinion there are two ways to have introduction with Insaanul Kamil. Either he introduce himself or some one else should introduce him to general public.
At a time there should be one INSAANUL KAMIL, not few not many. For example Prophet Muhammad is considered Insaanul Kamil and in his time there wasn't any other.
But Syed Imam Shah has also mentioned 50 Huru(n) and 500 Putar (sons) to be given to followers.kmaherali wrote:I think the intention behind the miracle was not to make it known to the world at large but to those devoted Hindus who went to the Ganges daily for purification. Sayyed Imam Shah felt that these devoted souls deserved a better form of worship than going to the Ganges and hence performed the miracle for conversion purpose. Otherwise there was no reason to change the course of the Ganges permanently.swamidada wrote: In India they have traced the route of ancient Sarasvati river mentioned in Rig Veda. They have found the proof of Ram-Situ bridge by using modern scientific tools and images from satellite, then why not one can trace the changing route of Ganges river at time of Syed Imam Shah.
However we as Ismailis are required to accept the truth narrated in the Ginan
HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523 Momin Chetamani
What is logic in this. Does a Momin should enter Paradise in Human body having 50 beautiful girls around him? Is it not a kind of bribe?
The miracle is mentioned in the Qur'an:swamidada wrote:But that miracle was not intended for conversion. That miracle Hadith was recorded many many decades after demise of Prophet and is considered DHAIEF means weak Hadith.
The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder.
But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, "This is (but) transient magic."
—Quran 54:1–2 (Yusuf Ali)
The Prophet was demanded by his tribal members to prove the signs of God and he performed it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon
Mowlana Rumi has also quoted this miracle in his Discourses
The exact Firman is: "There are always 313 true believers in this world. The world would not exist without these 313 true momins" (Majewdi, 27/12/1893).swamidada wrote: Let me clarify your statement first. MSMS USED THE # 313 AS MOMINS AND NOT AS INSAANUL KAMIL in his Farman.
What would be so special about the true momins that the world would not exist without them?
MSMS says in his memoirs:swamidada wrote: At a time there should be one INSAANUL KAMIL, not few not many. For example Prophet Muhammad is considered Insaanul Kamil and in his time there wasn't any other.
"Islam acknowledges the existence of angels, of great souls who have developed themselves to the highest possible planes of the human soul and higher, and who are centres of the forces which are scattered throughout the Universe".
Hence there are many such souls.
It is an expression of the heavenly experience of perfect happiness for a momin. This verse should be considered with the verses preceding it and after it:swamidada wrote: But Syed Imam Shah has also mentioned 50 Huru(n) and 500 Putar (sons) to be given to followers.
HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523 Momin Chetamani
What is logic in this. Does a Momin should enter Paradise in Human body having 50 beautiful girls around him? Is it not a kind of bribe?
522) Eji Amra puri ma tena ghar chanaviya
Tema jartar khira manek padarth saar
Sovan inte tena ghar chanaviya
Tema nakhiya che anbar kastorina gaar
Cheto...
522. When these souls reach Heaven (Amrapuri) they will find that their
houses will be made of golden bricks studded with diamonds and the beams
will be made of sweet-smelling wood and the mud will be composed of
Kasturi (precious perfume).
523) Eji Horani pachas te gharma rakhsoon
Teno aek te thashe bharthar
Panchso putra te jiv na thashe
Teto farmani ramshe te ghar minjar
Cheto....
523. Fifty angels will quench these people's thirst and one of them will
marry him/her and they'll beget 500 sons, all of whom will be true
Farman-Bardari Momins.
524) Eji Panchso malaek tena hajorma raheshe
Teto farmani raheshe ae ghar minjar
Teto ashwa zaline oba raheshe
Ane te sahel karavshe swarg minjar
Cheto....
524. 500 slaves will serve that Momin and will be at his command and indeed
that soul will be soaring high.
Quran says;kmaherali wrote:The miracle is mentioned in the Qur'an:swamidada wrote:But that miracle was not intended for conversion. That miracle Hadith was recorded many many decades after demise of Prophet and is considered DHAIEF means weak Hadith.
The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder.
But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, "This is (but) transient magic."
—Quran 54:1–2 (Yusuf Ali)
UQTARABATIS SAA'ATU WANSHAQQAL QAMAR.
The hour has drawn near and the moon was split. Surah Qamar 54/1.
The word Saa'at is very important, it means hour, day of judgement, doomsday, day of resurrection, day of accountability.
The Surah talks about the impending Day of Judgment. It outlines some of the scenes of that Day. It also tells that God’s decision may come here and now. The stories of the people of Ad, Thamud, Noah, Lot, and Pharaoh told to show that how they denied the divine message and truth and in turn invoked God’s wrath.
There should be only one Insaanul Kamil.kmaherali wrote:The exact Firman is: "There are always 313 true believers in this world. The world would not exist without these 313 true momins" (Majewdi, 27/12/1893).swamidada wrote: Let me clarify your statement first. MSMS USED THE # 313 AS MOMINS AND NOT AS INSAANUL KAMIL in his Farman.
What would be so special about the true momins that the world would not exist without them?
Al Insaanul Kamil don't do any misdemeanors or involve in any felonies. But MSMS has also said that a Momin does 7 sins in a day!!?
Why humanity need 313 when one TRUE INSAANUL KAMIL is sufficient.
There is no mention of Prophet Muhammad in this Ayat did Shaqqul Qamar.kmaherali wrote:What about the second sentence which alludes to the magical phenomena?swamidada wrote: The word Saa'at is very important, it means hour, day of judgement, doomsday, day of resurrection, day of accountability.
Prophet Muhammad while preaching Islam and Divinity of Allah to Meccans he talked about resurrection on day of judgement and accountability. Which Meccans denied and refuted.
State of Insaanul Kamil is above a Momin. As I wrote there should be ONLY one Insaanul Kamil like prophet Muhammad or Imam of the time in my opinion. A Momin does 7 sins a day as stated by MSMS.kmaherali wrote:Who are the true momins if not Insan al Kameel?swamidada wrote: Did Imam said these or those 313 Momins are Insaanul Kamil?
What is Insan al Kameel to you? What do you mean by it? Whos said that there should be only one? How is the state of Insan al Kameel above the true momin?swamidada wrote:State of Insaanul Kamil is above a Momin. As I wrote there should be ONLY one Insaanul Kamil like prophet Muhammad or Imam of the time in my opinion. A Momin does 7 sins a day as stated by MSMS.
But the splitting of the moon as a sign of Allah and the denial of it is mentioned. Most commentators say that it was the Prophet who performed the miracle but his tribesmen denied it. Click on the link I provided.swamidada wrote: There is no mention of Prophet Muhammad in this Ayat did Shaqqul Qamar.
Prophet Muhammad while preaching Islam and Divinity of Allah to Meccans he talked about resurrection on day of judgement and accountability. Which Meccans denied and refuted.
Let examine part 522;kmaherali wrote:It is an expression of the heavenly experience of perfect happiness for a momin. This verse should be considered with the verses preceding it and after it:swamidada wrote: But Syed Imam Shah has also mentioned 50 Huru(n) and 500 Putar (sons) to be given to followers.
HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523 Momin Chetamani
What is logic in this. Does a Momin should enter Paradise in Human body having 50 beautiful girls around him? Is it not a kind of bribe?
522) Eji Amra puri ma tena ghar chanaviya
Tema jartar khira manek padarth saar
Sovan inte tena ghar chanaviya
Tema nakhiya che anbar kastorina gaar
Cheto...
522. When these souls reach Heaven (Amrapuri) they will find that their
houses will be made of golden bricks studded with diamonds and the beams
will be made of sweet-smelling wood and the mud will be composed of
Kasturi (precious perfume).
523) Eji Horani pachas te gharma rakhsoon
Teno aek te thashe bharthar
Panchso putra te jiv na thashe
Teto farmani ramshe te ghar minjar
Cheto....
523. Fifty angels will quench these people's thirst and one of them will
marry him/her and they'll beget 500 sons, all of whom will be true
Farman-Bardari Momins.
524) Eji Panchso malaek tena hajorma raheshe
Teto farmani raheshe ae ghar minjar
Teto ashwa zaline oba raheshe
Ane te sahel karavshe swarg minjar
Cheto....
524. 500 slaves will serve that Momin and will be at his command and indeed
that soul will be soaring high.
Does souls reaching AMRAPURI really need big houses made of golden bricks and diamonds with precious mud of Kasturi??
The Momin souls will merge with Universal soul. Soul is subtle, don't need golden houses. Their abode is in Universal soul.
Let us look into part 523;
You have twisted the meaning as you usually do to prove your point.
Meaning of this part is clear. The departed soul will be given paid of golden house (no mortgage payments). There the BHARATAR will marry 500 beautiful Huurs and begets 500 sons (time period is not mentioned may be in one year or 500 years).
I wander Why Syed Saheb not prayed for DUAGHTERS?
Some one explain me. Does souls have private parts for sex, how come 500 sons be born?
Part 524;
Successful souls will be given 500 slaves (the word used is MALIK means angels) to serve the chief of tribe and his large family. (Oh boy who will pay the bills). It is a story of bribing souls.
In Shia Islamic terminology, Insaanul Kamil is Prophet Muhammad or Mowla Ali.kmaherali wrote:What is Insan al Kameel to you? What do you mean by it? Whos said that there should be only one? How is the state of Insan al Kameel above the true momin?swamidada wrote:State of Insaanul Kamil is above a Momin. As I wrote there should be ONLY one Insaanul Kamil like prophet Muhammad or Imam of the time in my opinion. A Momin does 7 sins a day as stated by MSMS.
As I mentioned before, the Hadith in which split of moon is mentioned is a week (dhaeef hadith). It was introduced around 100+ years after demise of Prophet.kmaherali wrote:Most commentators say that it was the Prophet who performed the miracle but his tribesmen denied it.swamidada wrote: There is no mention of Prophet Muhammad in this Ayat did Shaqqul Qamar.
Prophet Muhammad while preaching Islam and Divinity of Allah to Meccans he talked about resurrection on day of judgement and accountability. Which Meccans denied and refuted.
Ginans are allegorical and hence they have many layers of meaning. Do not impose your literalist outlook on them.swamidada wrote: Let examine part 522;
Does souls reaching AMRAPURI really need big houses made of golden bricks and diamonds with precious mud of Kasturi??
The verses are symbolic expressions of comfort and peace that will be attained in the heavens. They are not to be taken literally or at their face value.