can humans BE God?
can humans BE God?
Hi. In my REC class, we were having a discussion which I guess I believe, but I wasn't too sure about it- we believe that God is everywhere, and He is a part of us, and that we're also a part of Him. After doing Ibadat, etc., we have to power to be one with Him as well..but in REC, my teacher said that since God is in us, we also have the Nur in us (the same Nur which the Imam has), and that we can also BE God. What is ya'lls input on this? I guess I believe it, but I'm not too sure, since I've never really heard this concept before.
identification
Nargis YAM
Its all a matter of identification.
If I think I am what I do then thats what I am identifying with.
If I think I am the body then that is also true.
If I think I am my thoughts then that is what I am identifying with.
If I think I am nothing then I am identifying with Allah.
The word Allah is frequently translated as "The Great Nothing"
Hope this adds feul to your spark.
Shams
Arre baba spark of inquiry/curiosity.
Its all a matter of identification.
If I think I am what I do then thats what I am identifying with.
If I think I am the body then that is also true.
If I think I am my thoughts then that is what I am identifying with.
If I think I am nothing then I am identifying with Allah.
The word Allah is frequently translated as "The Great Nothing"
Hope this adds feul to your spark.
Shams
Arre baba spark of inquiry/curiosity.
Hafiz's Poem on being GOD.
We have all heard Mansoor's story about the proclamation of "I am the truth". To give a different spin on this issue, the following is the poem by Hafiz taken from "The Gift" by Daniel Ladinsky, which conveys the same message of being God.
THE QUINTESSENCE OF LONELINESS
I am like a heroin addict
In my longing for a sublime state,
For that ground of Conscious Nothing
Where the Rose ever
Blooms
O, the Friend
Has done me a great favor
And has so thoroughly ruined my life,
What else would you expect
Seeing God would do!
Out of the ashes of this broken frame
There is a noble rising son pining for death,
Because,
Since we first met, Beloved
I have become a foreigner
To every world
Except that one
In which there is only You
Or - Me.
Now that the heart has held
That which can never be touched
My subsistence is a blessed
Desolation
And from that I cry for more loneliness.
I am lonely
I am so lonely, dear Beloved
For the quintessence of
Loneliness,
For what is more alone than God?
Hafiz
What is more pure and alone,
Magnificiently Sovereign,
Than God.
THE QUINTESSENCE OF LONELINESS
I am like a heroin addict
In my longing for a sublime state,
For that ground of Conscious Nothing
Where the Rose ever
Blooms
O, the Friend
Has done me a great favor
And has so thoroughly ruined my life,
What else would you expect
Seeing God would do!
Out of the ashes of this broken frame
There is a noble rising son pining for death,
Because,
Since we first met, Beloved
I have become a foreigner
To every world
Except that one
In which there is only You
Or - Me.
Now that the heart has held
That which can never be touched
My subsistence is a blessed
Desolation
And from that I cry for more loneliness.
I am lonely
I am so lonely, dear Beloved
For the quintessence of
Loneliness,
For what is more alone than God?
Hafiz
What is more pure and alone,
Magnificiently Sovereign,
Than God.
Mansoor
YAM
Nargis
Actually his name was Hussain Mansoor Al-Hallaj. He existed a little over a thousand years ago. He has been mentioned by 48th and 49th Imams in their Farmans. He is supposed to have evesdropped on a religious meeting his sister had gone to and since then he was gripped with the desire to taste the essence (of the ultimate reality) he searched and travelled through hundreds of cities met with multitudes of religious scholars until he came to a point where he started saying "Ana Al Haq" which means I am the truth. He is known to have performed miracles. He was seen as a heretic. He was thrown out of 50 cities because of what he kept saying. The Khalif of the area decided that he was committing a sin and decided to have him killed. first they cut his hands then his feet then his tongue cause he kept saying "Ana Al Haq". when they cut his tongue the drops of his blood cried "Ana Al Haq" and I have read that the drops would form the word allah as soon as they hit the ground. Then they proceeded to kill him (behead or lynch I am not sure). Since the blood continued to declare what it did they decided to burn his body pieces. Well the ashes started crying out "Ana Al Haq". So they decided to sprinkle the ashes in to the sea and that caused a severe storm in the sea with huge waves. Al Hallaj had once had a servant and had told him that when the sea is out of control spread my cloak on the shore to calm it down. So this servant did so and the sea calmed down but Hussain Mansoor Al-Hallaj became a legend.
Whew that was long and goose pimple inducing.
YAM
Shams
Nargis
Actually his name was Hussain Mansoor Al-Hallaj. He existed a little over a thousand years ago. He has been mentioned by 48th and 49th Imams in their Farmans. He is supposed to have evesdropped on a religious meeting his sister had gone to and since then he was gripped with the desire to taste the essence (of the ultimate reality) he searched and travelled through hundreds of cities met with multitudes of religious scholars until he came to a point where he started saying "Ana Al Haq" which means I am the truth. He is known to have performed miracles. He was seen as a heretic. He was thrown out of 50 cities because of what he kept saying. The Khalif of the area decided that he was committing a sin and decided to have him killed. first they cut his hands then his feet then his tongue cause he kept saying "Ana Al Haq". when they cut his tongue the drops of his blood cried "Ana Al Haq" and I have read that the drops would form the word allah as soon as they hit the ground. Then they proceeded to kill him (behead or lynch I am not sure). Since the blood continued to declare what it did they decided to burn his body pieces. Well the ashes started crying out "Ana Al Haq". So they decided to sprinkle the ashes in to the sea and that caused a severe storm in the sea with huge waves. Al Hallaj had once had a servant and had told him that when the sea is out of control spread my cloak on the shore to calm it down. So this servant did so and the sea calmed down but Hussain Mansoor Al-Hallaj became a legend.
Whew that was long and goose pimple inducing.
YAM
Shams
Identification
YAM
Nargis
Lets take another approach
"I am an American" here I identify with my country
I am a Texan ---Here I am identifying with my state
I am an Ismaili ----Here I am identifying with my Tariqa
I am an individual with a body---Here I am identiifyinf with my body.
Are you getting the drift?
YAM
Shams
Nargis
Lets take another approach
"I am an American" here I identify with my country
I am a Texan ---Here I am identifying with my state
I am an Ismaili ----Here I am identifying with my Tariqa
I am an individual with a body---Here I am identiifyinf with my body.
Are you getting the drift?
YAM
Shams
Thanks a lot Shamsu! The story about Mansoor was definately very interesting. I also understand the concept a lot better now. So I guess it is true, God is within me, therefore, if I choose to identify myself with him, I can be him. But in the physical sense, I can never be him right? (like do all the things God can do) I hope I'm getting this right! Thanks ya'll =)
Being an example
YAM Nargis
Let us say you have created an environment and then you set the rules for existing in this environment, would you ever break those rules while you exist in that environment.
Everyone else that exists in that environment is suffering because they knowingly or unknowingly break the standard rules.
So to "Be God" all you have to do is be yourself as you are supposed to be. Now who will decide how you are supposed to be?
The Imam through his Farmans tells us how to be(have) in order to Be(come).
Another way of understanding it is
God is experiencing the environment he himself created though each of us.
Like a giangantic monument with billions of windows through which he looks at himself, experiencing his own creation first hand.
Is it possible for you to imagine existing in an environment where there is no concept of space or distance?
It is a complete paradigm shift, in fact the relinquishing of all paradigms all together.
I am smiling at myself here because we are discussing that which is above and beyond our intellect and imagination.
YAM
Let us say you have created an environment and then you set the rules for existing in this environment, would you ever break those rules while you exist in that environment.
Everyone else that exists in that environment is suffering because they knowingly or unknowingly break the standard rules.
So to "Be God" all you have to do is be yourself as you are supposed to be. Now who will decide how you are supposed to be?
The Imam through his Farmans tells us how to be(have) in order to Be(come).
Another way of understanding it is
God is experiencing the environment he himself created though each of us.
Like a giangantic monument with billions of windows through which he looks at himself, experiencing his own creation first hand.
Is it possible for you to imagine existing in an environment where there is no concept of space or distance?
It is a complete paradigm shift, in fact the relinquishing of all paradigms all together.
I am smiling at myself here because we are discussing that which is above and beyond our intellect and imagination.
YAM
There is NO WAY that man can be God. God is perfect in everyway. He knows all sees all is all. If God is in human form (Imam) then physically, mentaly, and spiritualy he is pure. Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Sha Himself has said that even the BEST of momins (313 momins) commit etleast 7 sins in day. Otherwise if they did not then they would become and only God is perfect. Regardless of what condition you are in you can not exolt yourself to the satus of calling yourself God becuase that is balsphomy in it self.
Elevation to the level of Imam.
In my opinion it is possible for a man to elavate himself to reach the level of the Imam. MSMH said the following in one of his farmans.
"Mowla Aly noe mojizo ae hato ke potani jagiyae pochade."
Meaning - The miracle of Mowla Aly was to elevate souls to his own level.
The following verse of seeharfee also alludes to this.
keett bhamareekaa tame dekho khelaa
esaa paayaa gur su(n) chelaa.....................................10
Meaning - Look at the relationship between a worm (larva) and a bee. When a worm(larva) endures the leaking of a bee, it is transformed into the nature of the bee. Similarly when a disciple rigorously follows the guide, he is transformed into the nature of the Guide, i.e. becomes Divine himself
The minor imperfection (at least seven sins) is only alluding to the humility that the person is still human inspite of being almost Divine. But for all intent and puposes this enlightened person( the best momin) is really God as much as the Imam is.
Our Imams would not mention the names of Rumi and Mansoor in their firmans if they felt their ideas were blasphemous.
"Mowla Aly noe mojizo ae hato ke potani jagiyae pochade."
Meaning - The miracle of Mowla Aly was to elevate souls to his own level.
The following verse of seeharfee also alludes to this.
keett bhamareekaa tame dekho khelaa
esaa paayaa gur su(n) chelaa.....................................10
Meaning - Look at the relationship between a worm (larva) and a bee. When a worm(larva) endures the leaking of a bee, it is transformed into the nature of the bee. Similarly when a disciple rigorously follows the guide, he is transformed into the nature of the Guide, i.e. becomes Divine himself
The minor imperfection (at least seven sins) is only alluding to the humility that the person is still human inspite of being almost Divine. But for all intent and puposes this enlightened person( the best momin) is really God as much as the Imam is.
Our Imams would not mention the names of Rumi and Mansoor in their firmans if they felt their ideas were blasphemous.
I understand what you are saying but think about it, if you were to elevate yourself to the level of the Imam (impossible) then what would be the point in having Him as the Imam. Becuase at that stage you would already know everything. The job of the Imam is to help elevate souls. You may get very far in Ibabat like Kara Rurah but even still it is not possible to reach the level of the Imam becuase remember whatever level you are at, he is above that. Read the firmans of Mowlana Hazar Imam for Batul Khyal, He always says "He who is above all else". So no matter what level you get to, the Imam will always be above it, becuase he has the Noor of Allah Manifested in Him.
At that stage you are FREE and not bound to ibaadat. The Imam's duty as a guide has ended. The relationship will not be of need but of gratitude and love. The Imam is not your guide but your constant companion, provider and protector. MSMS once told Bhagat Kara Rudaa to stop Bandagi because it had served its purpose.aminL wrote:I understand what you are saying but think about it, if you were to elevate yourself to the level of the Imam (impossible) then what would be the point in having Him as the Imam. Becuase at that stage you would already know everything. The job of the Imam is to help elevate souls.
According to Swami Sri Yuktesvar in his book "The Holy Science" , such a person acquires the following 8 aiswaryas or ascetic majesties.
ANIMA, the power of making one's body or anything else as small as he likes, even as tiny as an atom, anu.
MAHIMA, the power of magnifying or making one's body or anything else mahat, as large as he likes.
LAGHIMA, the power of making one's body or anything else laghu, as light in weight as he likes.
GARIMA, the power of making one's body or anything else guru, as heavy as he likes.
PRAPTI, the power of apti, obtaining anything he likes.
VASITWA, the power of vasa, bringing anything under control.
PRAKAMYA the power of satisfying all desires, kam, by irresistible will force.
ISITWA, the power of becoming ISA, Lord, over everything. See John 14:12.
"Verily verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."
I did not say I was. An authentic elevated person will never claim to be elevated. He will only be known as such if the Imam makes it known like Kara Ruda Bhagat or the Pirs. The Imam also says that once you have found that light you will know it and there will be no doubt in your mind about it and it will give you strength unlike anything else.aminL wrote:I know what you are saying all I am saying is that even though you are so elevated you are not the Imam nor are you anywhere near where he is. Thats all Im sayin
Ya Ali Madad to all,
In my humble opinion, we can talk about this topic according to the farmans of Imam e Zaman, Sultan Mohd. Shah. In his farmans Mowla says
Tame mehnat karoo thoo Pir Sadardin java thaow , which means that with hard work you too can be like Pir Sadarddin, who was able to reach oneness with God. Even Mowla says Tame humara java thaow which means you can become like me. Further, Mowla says je humara farman uper chalee che te kara haqiqati moman che, which means that those who follow my farmans through action are true momins. And finally, Mowla says momin ane murshid wachee kay pan judai nathee, which means that there is no separation between a momin a mowla (murshid). So through these farmans, I think a human being can become God, if they can uncover the truth that exists within their ownselves.
In Ginans Iman Begum says
ek rahman sub gaat diseh to ginan e ginan (I may be slightly mistaken in the exact words) which means that rehman is present in your hearts and that is the true knowledge.
When we say the shahada we are actually saying a shortened version. The true shahada is "la illaha il lalah adam safi allah, ibrahim kalilla, musa kalim ullah, isa ruh allah, mohammed rusul illah", which means that there is no God but God, Adam possesses all qualites of God, Abraham is a friend of God, Moses talks to God, Jesus is the spirit of God, and Mohammed is the messanger of God.
If Adam possesses the qualities of God, so why can't his decendants (us) also have these qualities? We have them, but we have to discover them.
In my signiture is a farman of Sultan Mohd. Shah which says keep your faith like mansur. If this is not possible (having a faith like mansur), then Mowla would not guide us in that direction.
This is my understanding. Any other opinions are appreciated.
May Mowla bless you all, and give you a deeper understanding of your faith.
In my humble opinion, we can talk about this topic according to the farmans of Imam e Zaman, Sultan Mohd. Shah. In his farmans Mowla says
Tame mehnat karoo thoo Pir Sadardin java thaow , which means that with hard work you too can be like Pir Sadarddin, who was able to reach oneness with God. Even Mowla says Tame humara java thaow which means you can become like me. Further, Mowla says je humara farman uper chalee che te kara haqiqati moman che, which means that those who follow my farmans through action are true momins. And finally, Mowla says momin ane murshid wachee kay pan judai nathee, which means that there is no separation between a momin a mowla (murshid). So through these farmans, I think a human being can become God, if they can uncover the truth that exists within their ownselves.
In Ginans Iman Begum says
ek rahman sub gaat diseh to ginan e ginan (I may be slightly mistaken in the exact words) which means that rehman is present in your hearts and that is the true knowledge.
When we say the shahada we are actually saying a shortened version. The true shahada is "la illaha il lalah adam safi allah, ibrahim kalilla, musa kalim ullah, isa ruh allah, mohammed rusul illah", which means that there is no God but God, Adam possesses all qualites of God, Abraham is a friend of God, Moses talks to God, Jesus is the spirit of God, and Mohammed is the messanger of God.
If Adam possesses the qualities of God, so why can't his decendants (us) also have these qualities? We have them, but we have to discover them.
In my signiture is a farman of Sultan Mohd. Shah which says keep your faith like mansur. If this is not possible (having a faith like mansur), then Mowla would not guide us in that direction.
This is my understanding. Any other opinions are appreciated.
May Mowla bless you all, and give you a deeper understanding of your faith.
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alinizar313
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:17 pm
" He who is above all else"
aminL wrote:I understand what you are saying but think about it, if you were to elevate yourself to the level of the Imam (impossible) then what would be the point in having Him as the Imam. Becuase at that stage you would already know everything. The job of the Imam is to help elevate souls. You may get very far in Ibabat like Kara Rurah but even still it is not possible to reach the level of the Imam becuase remember whatever level you are at, he is above that. Read the firmans of Mowlana Hazar Imam for Batul Khyal, He always says "He who is above all else". So no matter what level you get to, the Imam will always be above it, becuase he has the Noor of Allah Manifested in Him.
Dear AminL,
Ya Ali madad
I really appreciate your interest in this forum. As far as Firman is concerned and especially BUK, one should take it as whole statement rather than a part from that to avoid any misinterpretation as a little misunderstanding or misinterpretation will change your whole thinking process. So be careful. You did not quote the firman completely that is why you gave your decision ( No need to mention). Anyhow The actual firman ( I will not mention in English here but in Gujrati dur to BUK Firman) " ALI NA NOOR DUARA IMAMAT NA NOOR THAKI TE KAIY JAIY SERVAIY THI PER CHHAIY TIYAN POHNCHVANI KOSHISH KERVI JOIYE". I could not discuss the BUK firman here, if u want any explaination, please contact thru Private message.
Always remember that issues like these should be discussed very patiently and witfully.
Nur - Aql e kul
According to my opinion the NUR is the aql-e-kul, the Divine Intellect which according to MHI's speech transcends and informs the human intellect. When a momin reaches the haqiqati level, the human intellect merges with the Divine Intellect hence becomes one with God.
When MHI refers to "He who is above all else" he is referring to the transendant Aql-e-kul. Above all else is relative to the ordinary consciousness. When through elevation of the soul, the supra consciousness is achieved, the limitations of the conscious mind are overcome and one reaches he who is above all else. All else is totality of experience as perceived through ordinary consciousness.
The following three verses of the Ginan "Sakhi Mahapad Keri Vaat" explains this elevation to Supra Consciousness.
sakhee tee-aa(n) pee(n)dd tannee khabar ke saghallee visaree re
jyaare suratee chaddee bhrahama(n)dd ke futtee nisaree re.........9
O beloved one, (in this state), all the discomforts of the body get forgotten when the mind breaks through the ordinary consciousness and reaches the state of "Brahma" (Supra-consciousness or Hakikati State).
sakhee ved kitaab maa(n)he ke e gam naahee re
tee-aa(n) nahee divas nahee raat ke dhup na chhaa(n)i re.........11
O beloved ones, the description or the experience is not given in the vedas (scriptures) or in any books because in this state there is neither day nor night nor sun nor shade. (In other words this experience is beyond human intellect and hence undescribable.)
sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re.........................12
O beloved ones, my Lord (attained through this experience) does not bear any telling (as He is undescribable) and He is nameless. He can only be seen or experienced.
When MHI refers to "He who is above all else" he is referring to the transendant Aql-e-kul. Above all else is relative to the ordinary consciousness. When through elevation of the soul, the supra consciousness is achieved, the limitations of the conscious mind are overcome and one reaches he who is above all else. All else is totality of experience as perceived through ordinary consciousness.
The following three verses of the Ginan "Sakhi Mahapad Keri Vaat" explains this elevation to Supra Consciousness.
sakhee tee-aa(n) pee(n)dd tannee khabar ke saghallee visaree re
jyaare suratee chaddee bhrahama(n)dd ke futtee nisaree re.........9
O beloved one, (in this state), all the discomforts of the body get forgotten when the mind breaks through the ordinary consciousness and reaches the state of "Brahma" (Supra-consciousness or Hakikati State).
sakhee ved kitaab maa(n)he ke e gam naahee re
tee-aa(n) nahee divas nahee raat ke dhup na chhaa(n)i re.........11
O beloved ones, the description or the experience is not given in the vedas (scriptures) or in any books because in this state there is neither day nor night nor sun nor shade. (In other words this experience is beyond human intellect and hence undescribable.)
sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re.........................12
O beloved ones, my Lord (attained through this experience) does not bear any telling (as He is undescribable) and He is nameless. He can only be seen or experienced.
In my opinion, it is a matter of degree, so long as it is 'within' and not 'out there' and that it is realisable as per MHI's firman " ALI NA NOOR DUARA IMAMAT NA NOOR THAKI TE KAIY JAIY SERVAIY THI PER CHHAIY TIYAN POHNCHVANI KOSHISH KERVI JOIYE", it does not matter.kandani wrote: "He who is above all else" refers to the Divine Essence in its pure form - indescribable, ineffable, and above being.
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_thaillestlunatic_
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:06 pm
can humans be god?
how can us (humans) be god?
in order for us to try to become god we have to understand who our beloved, Imam is. Is he really just a human being? or is he the "creator"
of this world. In my humble opinion, I think we can NEVER become god
because he is above that. The minute we give attributes to Allah or the 99
names of Allah, he is above that. However, I think through bandagi we can
become one with Allah. I belive we can find that light and perceive that light within us to perform the miracles our Imam have. Honestly speaking
I think Imam will ALWAYS be above us and noone will ever achieve the
status of Imam. That's just my views on it
in order for us to try to become god we have to understand who our beloved, Imam is. Is he really just a human being? or is he the "creator"
of this world. In my humble opinion, I think we can NEVER become god
because he is above that. The minute we give attributes to Allah or the 99
names of Allah, he is above that. However, I think through bandagi we can
become one with Allah. I belive we can find that light and perceive that light within us to perform the miracles our Imam have. Honestly speaking
I think Imam will ALWAYS be above us and noone will ever achieve the
status of Imam. That's just my views on it
Bol
Those who pray without Bol are actually praying for the Bol but dont know it.
Those who have Bol have EVERYTHING.
The Bol is itself Marifat (Recognition of Imam).
Irshad speeches etc may mean different things to different people but to some of us what ever comes from Noor of Imam (Aql of Imam) is Noor.
We can never be God but God manifests himself on earth through us. He looks at you through my eyes and at me through yours
ya ya I know we have never met.
But you never know.
Shams
Those who have Bol have EVERYTHING.
The Bol is itself Marifat (Recognition of Imam).
Irshad speeches etc may mean different things to different people but to some of us what ever comes from Noor of Imam (Aql of Imam) is Noor.
We can never be God but God manifests himself on earth through us. He looks at you through my eyes and at me through yours
ya ya I know we have never met.
But you never know.
Shams
Re: Bol
Have everything ONLY IF they put it to use, otherwise they are worse than animals.shamsu wrote:
Those who have Bol have EVERYTHING.
The Bol is itself Marifat (Recognition of Imam).
Irshad speeches etc may mean different things to different people but to some of us what ever comes from Noor of Imam (Aql of Imam) is Noor.
ya ya I know we have never met.
But you never know.
Shams
I agree with you about Irshad etc. They are also derived from the Noor. The value of them will depend on who reads them. If there is the recognition of the Imam, they are very valuable otherwise they will mean nothing.
It does not matter whether we have met or not physically. I think from Batini point we are close. We are after all a brotherhood around MHI.
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alinizar313
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:17 pm
Re: Noor
You are absolutely right.shamsu wrote:Imammat nu Noor = Farmans
Aly nu Noor = Bol
He who is above all else = He who is above all else
Shams
Apart from Jisam. there are three form of Noor ( just like three form of water; Ice, Water and steam), they are:
HAQ NOOR i,e Oochanta Noor, one who is above all. The essence (God). The Truth
SUT NOOR i,e Ism-e-Azam, ALI
BRHAMA KAHIY E NOOR i,e Farman
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alinizar313
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 9:17 pm
Ali & Mohammed
What is Ali and Mohammed? We try to compare:
If Ali is AQL-E-QUL, then Mohammed is NAFS-E-QUL
If Ali is ISM-E-AZAM, then Mohammed is ILM (firman and Ginan)
If Ali is SATYE ( TRUTH ) then Mohammed is IMAN (Faith)
If Ali is IMAM then Mohammed is PIR
If Ali is SUN then Mohammed is MOON
If Ali is MUSHKIL KUSHA then Mohammed Is REHAMAT-UL-ALEMIN
If Ali is AQL-E-QUL, then Mohammed is NAFS-E-QUL
If Ali is ISM-E-AZAM, then Mohammed is ILM (firman and Ginan)
If Ali is SATYE ( TRUTH ) then Mohammed is IMAN (Faith)
If Ali is IMAM then Mohammed is PIR
If Ali is SUN then Mohammed is MOON
If Ali is MUSHKIL KUSHA then Mohammed Is REHAMAT-UL-ALEMIN
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from_Origin
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- Contact:
Re: Noor
shamsu wrote: Imammat nu Noor = Farmans
Aly nu Noor = Bol
He who is above all else = He who is above all else
Shams
Isn't Imammat's Noor the very same Aly's Noor? If so, then Imam's Noor is Bol (as well as Farman), such as Aly's Noor is Bol (and Farman).