pirs are the noor-e-muhammed but what about pir pandiyat
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ismaili103
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pirs are the noor-e-muhammed but what about pir pandiyat
most of us know that pir are the noor of muhammed but what about pir pandiyat-e-jawanmardi.i know its a pir.this book has same noor of muhammed but how the book have noor.........plzz reply
I don't agree with Admin comments, as per Ismaili Tariqua and practice" Pir Pandiyate Jawamardi" is also considered as "Pir" because this books had been bestowed by Imam after Pir Tajdin, who was killed by Murids from Sind, Pakistan. After this tragedy Imam was disappointed therefore instead of assigning a living person Imam assigned this book as a Ismaili "pir". For your kind information there was almost 300 years gap in this gap "Jampudwip" didn't have any pirs.
No one has to agree with me. Or with anyone else for this matter.
1) Who was the Pir after MustansirBillah II's Pir Pandiyat?
2) And what year according to you was he appointed Pir?
3) What source do you have on this interpretation of 300 years "gap" with which I do not agree.
I will prove this wrong once you give me your source and reply to this simple question, what year was the next Pir after Pir Pandiyat, who was he?
1) Who was the Pir after MustansirBillah II's Pir Pandiyat?
2) And what year according to you was he appointed Pir?
3) What source do you have on this interpretation of 300 years "gap" with which I do not agree.
I will prove this wrong once you give me your source and reply to this simple question, what year was the next Pir after Pir Pandiyat, who was he?
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ismaili103
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I will love if some one prove me wrong, that way I learn more.I will prove this wrong once you give me your source and reply to this simple question, what year was the next Pir after Pir Pandiyat, who was he?
for the sources, It will little time to find out the sources, since I am not come Ismaili.net every day now a days.
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star_munir
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Please read the old du'a. We used to take the names of all the Pirs. Pirs may not have been sent to Jampu Deep - but we did have Pirs that went to Turkey and Azerbaijan and Armenia etc.
Pir Ali Asgher Baig was one such Pir.
Other Pirs - Imam Aga Hassanali Shah was Pir before becoming Imam - upon becoming Imam He bestowed Piratan on his mother - Pir Bibi Sarkar Mariam Khatun and after her death, on Pir Aga Ali Shah, who went on to become Imam - at which time - He appointed His son - Shah Khalilulah as Pir - otherwise known as Pir Shahbuddin Shah (author of Risaladar Haqiqati Deen), and upon the death of Pir Shahbuddin Shah, Imam Aga Ali Shah appointed his son who was 5 months old as Pir Abul Hasan Shah, after whose death at the age of 9 or 10 months - Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah kept the Piratan with himself and upon His death appointed Shah Karim as Imam and Pir.
So Piratan never went away or was abolished - just not sent to India.
Shams
Pir Ali Asgher Baig was one such Pir.
Other Pirs - Imam Aga Hassanali Shah was Pir before becoming Imam - upon becoming Imam He bestowed Piratan on his mother - Pir Bibi Sarkar Mariam Khatun and after her death, on Pir Aga Ali Shah, who went on to become Imam - at which time - He appointed His son - Shah Khalilulah as Pir - otherwise known as Pir Shahbuddin Shah (author of Risaladar Haqiqati Deen), and upon the death of Pir Shahbuddin Shah, Imam Aga Ali Shah appointed his son who was 5 months old as Pir Abul Hasan Shah, after whose death at the age of 9 or 10 months - Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah kept the Piratan with himself and upon His death appointed Shah Karim as Imam and Pir.
So Piratan never went away or was abolished - just not sent to India.
Shams
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star_munir
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You are right. After death of Pir Tajdin, Imam Mustansirbillah was the bearer of Noor of Pir. Shortly, after that Imam Mustansirbillah appointed Pir Haider Ali as Pir. Pir Sent his dais to Turkey and Central Asia. When Syed Imam Shah went to Kahak to See Imam, Pir Haider Ali helped him in getting spiritual vision of heaven. Pir Haider Ali died during Imamat of Imam Abuzar Ali. As for India, When group of Indian Ismailis, went to Imam and prayed for forgiveness, Farman book was given to them entitled Pandiyat-e-Jawanmardi. Imam told them to respect it and consider it as Pir. (Source of information: Brief history of Ismailism by Abu Aly missionary)
Sorry, it take little time but I am here as I promissed.
Before I post any sources which I collected please let me make it clear that
1, we are talking about Jampudwip ( Indo-Pak area where Pir Tajdin, Pir Hasan Kabirdin and pir Sadardin and pir Shams was preached) not other part of the world.
2, Imamat and Piratan must be present all the time, no matter which countries Imam or pir lives! without Imamat and Piratan this earth vanished in a seconds
Now back to the point after the pir Tajdin Imam Mustaniribillah appointed a book name Pir pandiyade Jawamardi as a pir for Jampudwip Ismailis.
and there were almost 300 years gape when a living pir (Human) appointed by imamin Indo-Pak sub continental however there were pirs in other part of the world as mentioned by ShamsB.
Non-Ismaili sources:-
1, Peer : Professor Iwanov
2, Tawarikh-E-Pir wirtter by Pirzada Sadaruddin Dargahwala.
Ismaili sources:-
1,History of Ismaili pirs waez series delivered by Rai Abu ali
2, Pir padharya Apane Dwar: written by Alwaez Alibhai Nanji.
Before I post any sources which I collected please let me make it clear that
1, we are talking about Jampudwip ( Indo-Pak area where Pir Tajdin, Pir Hasan Kabirdin and pir Sadardin and pir Shams was preached) not other part of the world.
2, Imamat and Piratan must be present all the time, no matter which countries Imam or pir lives! without Imamat and Piratan this earth vanished in a seconds
Now back to the point after the pir Tajdin Imam Mustaniribillah appointed a book name Pir pandiyade Jawamardi as a pir for Jampudwip Ismailis.
and there were almost 300 years gape when a living pir (Human) appointed by imamin Indo-Pak sub continental however there were pirs in other part of the world as mentioned by ShamsB.
Non-Ismaili sources:-
1, Peer : Professor Iwanov
2, Tawarikh-E-Pir wirtter by Pirzada Sadaruddin Dargahwala.
Ismaili sources:-
1,History of Ismaili pirs waez series delivered by Rai Abu ali
2, Pir padharya Apane Dwar: written by Alwaez Alibhai Nanji.
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star_munir
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No - I don't think we had any other Pirs or Imams visit India until Imam Abul Hasan Shah who came for a very short time during the campaigns of Nadir Shah Turani (where the peacock throne was carried away from Delhi to Tehran), Imam Abul Hasan Shah came to the vicinity of Lahore and maybe Lahore itself for about 40 or so days, but returned to Persia.
Imam Aga Hasanali Shah upon his ascending the Imamat appointed His mother as pir; Pir Sarkar Bibi Mariam Khatoon - and she had come to India via Muscat post her appointment as Pir.
Shams
Imam Aga Hasanali Shah upon his ascending the Imamat appointed His mother as pir; Pir Sarkar Bibi Mariam Khatoon - and she had come to India via Muscat post her appointment as Pir.
Shams
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star_munir
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Imam Abul Hasan Shah and before that Imam Kasam Shah during the time of Pir Shams this facts proves by this ginanic verses.Who was the next Pir to come India after that long gap? Was it Pir Ali Akbar Baig?
"Nare didho che didar Kasam Shah aavine re lol"
In my opinion Imam Abul Hasan Shah came before Imam Hasan Ali shah, our 46th Imam, he came till Lahore and stayed over there almost month, he came with King Nadir Shah Durani to help him to win fort of Lahore, however many scholars believes that Imam Hasan Ali shah was the first imam who came in Jampudwip (Jeruk, Sind) in year 1842.
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star_munir
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star_munir
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RelyOnAllah
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Pirs in Ismaili Tariqa
Dear All, lets quickly reflect on our community today and will see many different traditions across the globe, now, our believed Imams based on the circumstances of the time appointed some individuals to start the Dawa, those individuals are such us Sudrudin, Kabiruddin, Nasir Khusrow, Hamiduddin Kirmani, Abu Yaqub As Sijistani and so on, in fact we know them as Pirs or Daeis, the time of Imam Mustansir Billah the II he produced a book named Pir Pandiyat Jawanmardi, the question is why this book as pir?
Well there are many myths and stories that one can come up with, but the reality is these individuals who we know and believe in them as pirs and say that Noor e Muhammad (PBH) is in them which may take us in the wrong direction, the question is why our Jamat is so different in the practice of their faith, in their rites and rituals in Jamat Khana, in their Majalis, in their form of practice in Jamat Khanas today, who did this to us? Who thought us to be different? How this happened? Are these Pirs responsible for all these divisions?
Well, one can easily think and say there had been a huge problem in the Jamat in the time of Imam Mustansir Billah the II and before, have not these pirs created division between Jamat and created their own parties? therefore Imam released the book and closed the notion of pirs
One can wonder why the Jamat still holding the old baggage while we have the present Imam who guides us in every steps and we do not listen carefully, for us should only be the Quran and the Imam.
Well there are many myths and stories that one can come up with, but the reality is these individuals who we know and believe in them as pirs and say that Noor e Muhammad (PBH) is in them which may take us in the wrong direction, the question is why our Jamat is so different in the practice of their faith, in their rites and rituals in Jamat Khana, in their Majalis, in their form of practice in Jamat Khanas today, who did this to us? Who thought us to be different? How this happened? Are these Pirs responsible for all these divisions?
Well, one can easily think and say there had been a huge problem in the Jamat in the time of Imam Mustansir Billah the II and before, have not these pirs created division between Jamat and created their own parties? therefore Imam released the book and closed the notion of pirs
One can wonder why the Jamat still holding the old baggage while we have the present Imam who guides us in every steps and we do not listen carefully, for us should only be the Quran and the Imam.
Re: Pirs in Ismaili Tariqa
Please read the Farmans of the Imams post Imam Mustan sirbillah on the Ginans. And please read the old du'a as well as the will of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah.RelyOnAllah wrote:Dear All, lets quickly reflect on our community today and will see many different traditions across the globe, now, our believed Imams based on the circumstances of the time appointed some individuals to start the Dawa, those individuals are such us Sudrudin, Kabiruddin, Nasir Khusrow, Hamiduddin Kirmani, Abu Yaqub As Sijistani and so on, in fact we know them as Pirs or Daeis, the time of Imam Mustansir Billah the II he produced a book named Pir Pandiyat Jawanmardi, the question is why this book as pir?
Well there are many myths and stories that one can come up with, but the reality is these individuals who we know and believe in them as pirs and say that Noor e Muhammad (PBH) is in them which may take us in the wrong direction, the question is why our Jamat is so different in the practice of their faith, in their rites and rituals in Jamat Khana, in their Majalis, in their form of practice in Jamat Khanas today, who did this to us? Who thought us to be different? How this happened? Are these Pirs responsible for all these divisions?
Well, one can easily think and say there had been a huge problem in the Jamat in the time of Imam Mustansir Billah the II and before, have not these pirs created division between Jamat and created their own parties? therefore Imam released the book and closed the notion of pirs
One can wonder why the Jamat still holding the old baggage while we have the present Imam who guides us in every steps and we do not listen carefully, for us should only be the Quran and the Imam.
Please also read history - and it wasn't Imam Mustansirbillah that gave us Pir Pandiyat e Jawan Mardi - it was Imam Abdus Salam, and there were other PIRS appointed by the Imams - that we have recorded in history - somehow in your talibanization attempt you glossed over that.
Shams
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RelyOnAllah
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MHI says "[A]n infinite part of the sheer interpretation of Islam is the rational process. And I attach enormous importance to that because it's a significant part of the way we live and work. So I encourage that."
Does Quran and Imam e Zaman through his farameen proves this notion of pirs?
history written by some one, but Quran revealed by Allah and Farman by Imam, I personally do not think there is a ref about notion of piratan, my biggist fear is 2 generation from now our kids will pronounce of the waezen as pir and will create more confusion within the Jamat, let not talk from one specific narrow tradition, and ask this notion of piratan exist in other sigment of the Jamat in different countries?
Quran only supports Din, Madhab, and Tariqa, Quran completely rejects the notion of FIRQA, which individual can create their own, and Imam e Zaman does not want division or Firqa within his Jamat
Does Quran and Imam e Zaman through his farameen proves this notion of pirs?
history written by some one, but Quran revealed by Allah and Farman by Imam, I personally do not think there is a ref about notion of piratan, my biggist fear is 2 generation from now our kids will pronounce of the waezen as pir and will create more confusion within the Jamat, let not talk from one specific narrow tradition, and ask this notion of piratan exist in other sigment of the Jamat in different countries?
Quran only supports Din, Madhab, and Tariqa, Quran completely rejects the notion of FIRQA, which individual can create their own, and Imam e Zaman does not want division or Firqa within his Jamat
And that's exactly what you're doing with your misinformation and miseducation - we are not sunnis.RelyOnAllah wrote:MHI says "[A]n infinite part of the sheer interpretation of Islam is the rational process. And I attach enormous importance to that because it's a significant part of the way we live and work. So I encourage that."
Does Quran and Imam e Zaman through his farameen proves this notion of pirs?
history written by some one, but Quran revealed by Allah and Farman by Imam, I personally do not think there is a ref about notion of piratan, my biggist fear is 2 generation from now our kids will pronounce of the waezen as pir and will create more confusion within the Jamat, let not talk from one specific narrow tradition, and ask this notion of piratan exist in other sigment of the Jamat in different countries?
Quran only supports Din, Madhab, and Tariqa, Quran completely rejects the notion of FIRQA, which individual can create their own, and Imam e Zaman does not want division or Firqa within his Jamat
BTW - my interpretation of my faith is SOLELY BASED ON THE IMAM.
the quran which you profess to follow - says..to you your faith - to me mine...
you don't accept Piratan - all the more power to you.
I do.
Btw..i actually think you reject the notion of Imam al Mustaqar as Ali - i think when you speak of the Imam you speak of him as the intercessor - not as the Ultimate Source..which actually makes the argument of Imam al Mustawda - are you familiar with those terms?
Maybe a studying of "Ismaili" history will help...
Shams
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RelyOnAllah
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Well Mr.
with your good education and knowledge about history and Farmans or Hazir Imam why do not you provide references to the following question, instead attacking others or recomending others to read history that may not have solid base
have not these pirs created division between Jamat and created their own parties?
Does Allah in the Quran and Imam e Zaman (49th Imam) through his farameen proves this notion of pirs?
Old Dua you refer to is not valid and expired.
MSM's farmans you mention make sure you get the fact right, come up with the place and exact date (authentic farmans) not fabrication
cool down welcome to the diversity of thought and new era, but this is only encouters, do not be emotional
with your good education and knowledge about history and Farmans or Hazir Imam why do not you provide references to the following question, instead attacking others or recomending others to read history that may not have solid base
have not these pirs created division between Jamat and created their own parties?
Does Allah in the Quran and Imam e Zaman (49th Imam) through his farameen proves this notion of pirs?
Old Dua you refer to is not valid and expired.
MSM's farmans you mention make sure you get the fact right, come up with the place and exact date (authentic farmans) not fabrication
cool down welcome to the diversity of thought and new era, but this is only encouters, do not be emotional
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ismaili103
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You can rely on Allah and still make mistake.
Pirs never created any division, on the contrary they fostered unity.
Yes indeed it is important to read our history and understand it first. Discussing with people whose mind is not open is difficult, some times just impossible.
So it is an important step to take in life before accusing our Pir, something that no Ismaili from any tradition would do.
Mowlana Shah Karim is Pir of ALL Ismailis according to the same WIll of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah which says that Shah Karim is also our Imam.
We do not need any other proof nor lessons from non-Ismailis who do not even understand the importance of the Will of the Imam. For us Ismailis, the Will of the Imam is final and not subject to discussion.
The Old Dua is a master piece and one of the best authentic documents of Ismaili History. It will remain as important for Ismailis as it is today after all of us will have "expired"
Admin
Pirs never created any division, on the contrary they fostered unity.
Yes indeed it is important to read our history and understand it first. Discussing with people whose mind is not open is difficult, some times just impossible.
So it is an important step to take in life before accusing our Pir, something that no Ismaili from any tradition would do.
Mowlana Shah Karim is Pir of ALL Ismailis according to the same WIll of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah which says that Shah Karim is also our Imam.
We do not need any other proof nor lessons from non-Ismailis who do not even understand the importance of the Will of the Imam. For us Ismailis, the Will of the Imam is final and not subject to discussion.
The Old Dua is a master piece and one of the best authentic documents of Ismaili History. It will remain as important for Ismailis as it is today after all of us will have "expired"
Admin
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RelyOnAllah
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Fair enough, agreed pirs never created devision, but there are Jamats that pronounce themselves or indentify themselves as party of pirs such as pir Sudruddin, Pir Shams, Pir Sabsily and run their own sparate majalis, do not We? specially in our Khuja tradititon, I could not find them in Arab or Asain tradition, any way, if you can clarify this from a authentic source would be helpful for all who visits this chet room
well, I agree with you admin, Discussing with people whose mind is not open is difficult, some times just impossible.
no one knows how open minded we all are except Allah
I think Mr. Admin you are still need to be well educated, to understand the different between accusing and questioning for clarification, no one acccusing the individual who did great service for the Imam and for the jamat in different time, their services are appreciated the way we appreciate the services of individuals in our present time, which they serve as appointed councilors, waezeen, mukhi and kamdias, title holders within our jamat and so on.
Imam e Zaman is verything for us not only pir or Imam, he is the one who Allah pronounced him in the Quran as UlilAmr, the one who vasted the knowledge of everything in him. Do not call him Pir, in different tradition pirs may mean very low level of authority, Hazir Imam himself pronounced himslef Imam, we call him Imam too.
if we expand our knowledge about different traditions of our Jamat will become to know, Yes we need to proof these elements which we discuss from the sources which is comon and acceptable not only for Jamat but outside of the Jamat, if we sleep in ignorance will essentially isolate our Jamat and our Imam in one cornor, which few did in the past, Now Hazir Imam works hard to place us back on the map of Mulsim Ummah
again the old dua we are talking about, just learned that not even practiced within other Jamats in other parts of the world, it was designed only for Khuja Jamat, correct me if I heard it worng.
well, I agree with you admin, Discussing with people whose mind is not open is difficult, some times just impossible.
no one knows how open minded we all are except Allah
I think Mr. Admin you are still need to be well educated, to understand the different between accusing and questioning for clarification, no one acccusing the individual who did great service for the Imam and for the jamat in different time, their services are appreciated the way we appreciate the services of individuals in our present time, which they serve as appointed councilors, waezeen, mukhi and kamdias, title holders within our jamat and so on.
Imam e Zaman is verything for us not only pir or Imam, he is the one who Allah pronounced him in the Quran as UlilAmr, the one who vasted the knowledge of everything in him. Do not call him Pir, in different tradition pirs may mean very low level of authority, Hazir Imam himself pronounced himslef Imam, we call him Imam too.
if we expand our knowledge about different traditions of our Jamat will become to know, Yes we need to proof these elements which we discuss from the sources which is comon and acceptable not only for Jamat but outside of the Jamat, if we sleep in ignorance will essentially isolate our Jamat and our Imam in one cornor, which few did in the past, Now Hazir Imam works hard to place us back on the map of Mulsim Ummah
again the old dua we are talking about, just learned that not even practiced within other Jamats in other parts of the world, it was designed only for Khuja Jamat, correct me if I heard it worng.
Go read the old dua - and visit the Jamat in Syria that recited the Old Dua as well.RelyOnAllah wrote:Fair enough, agreed pirs never created devision, but there are Jamats that pronounce themselves or indentify themselves as party of pirs such as pir Sudruddin, Pir Shams, Pir Sabsily and run their own sparate majalis, do not We? specially in our Khuja tradititon, I could not find them in Arab or Asain tradition, any way, if you can clarify this from a authentic source would be helpful for all who visits this chet room
well, I agree with you admin, Discussing with people whose mind is not open is difficult, some times just impossible.
no one knows how open minded we all are except Allah
I think Mr. Admin you are still need to be well educated, to understand the different between accusing and questioning for clarification, no one acccusing the individual who did great service for the Imam and for the jamat in different time, their services are appreciated the way we appreciate the services of individuals in our present time, which they serve as appointed councilors, waezeen, mukhi and kamdias, title holders within our jamat and so on.
Imam e Zaman is verything for us not only pir or Imam, he is the one who Allah pronounced him in the Quran as UlilAmr, the one who vasted the knowledge of everything in him. Do not call him Pir, in different tradition pirs may mean very low level of authority, Hazir Imam himself pronounced himslef Imam, we call him Imam too.
if we expand our knowledge about different traditions of our Jamat will become to know, Yes we need to proof these elements which we discuss from the sources which is comon and acceptable not only for Jamat but outside of the Jamat, if we sleep in ignorance will essentially isolate our Jamat and our Imam in one cornor, which few did in the past, Now Hazir Imam works hard to place us back on the map of Mulsim Ummah
again the old dua we are talking about, just learned that not even practiced within other Jamats in other parts of the world, it was designed only for Khuja Jamat, correct me if I heard it worng.
you speak of educated minds - first educate yourself in the Satpanthi Tradition and understand what it's about before you start slamming it.
Shams
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ismaili103
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i dont know fom wat reference u say that hazir imam is not pir. read the will of Imam Sultan mohd shah . Imam SMS appoint Shah karim hazir imam as 49th imam and 50th pir of ismaili's ....RelyOnAllah wrote:Imam e Zaman is verything for us not only pir or Imam, he is the one who Allah pronounced him in the Quran as UlilAmr, the one who vasted the knowledge of everything in him. Do not call him Pir, in different tradition pirs may mean very low level of authority, Hazir Imam himself pronounced himslef Imam, we call him Imam too..