Yam!
I do not mean to offend anybody with my topic. I merely wish to question my beliefs so I can strengthen them in turn.
Please review [2:165-167] in the Quran to undertand my query. That is Verse 165 of Surah 2.
To revere anything (human being, object) to the same extent as we do Allah is sinful. Even to regard this enitity as a buffer between us and our Lord is a sin. There are many examples I can offer on where and how we idolize the imam, but I will not go into detail on this forum. We are the only sect of muslims that do not pray directly to Allah but through our through our imam (buffer).
Are we idolaters?
Salam wa alaikum!
Are we idolaters?
This issue has been discussed extensively and intensively in this forum under:
Doctrines --> Y We Pray to MHI(Wasila) Instead of prayingto God Directly?
Doctrines --> Is Hazar Imam God?
Please go there and read through the threads. There have been references to our literature including the Quran, Ginans, Farmans and work of our great Dais.
If you have further questions, raise them in the threads for the sake of continuity and coherance of ideas.
Doctrines --> Y We Pray to MHI(Wasila) Instead of prayingto God Directly?
Doctrines --> Is Hazar Imam God?
Please go there and read through the threads. There have been references to our literature including the Quran, Ginans, Farmans and work of our great Dais.
If you have further questions, raise them in the threads for the sake of continuity and coherance of ideas.
Dear brother,
I think this topic has been discussed in other threads. Please post all your suras here and we will pick up from there. After that I shall quote you all the suras in which Allah S.W.T. says to Obey the Ulil Amr and love the Prophet's progeny and this cannot be anybody but the Imams. Ulil Amr cannot be Bush or Saudi King, and as Hazarat Omar had said, Yazid was Ulil Amr and Omar had asked to do his bayah. I'll provide Hadith from Bukhari to this effect.
In which way do we revere the Imam? Is it because we pray through him? All the Shias pray through him. Ask the Ithnas, Bohoras, Alawites, Druze, etc. If the Bohoras and the Ithnas say that they do not then they are lying through their teeth, because Imam Jafar As-Sadiq has said that "Allah is prayed through us, the Imams".
Now let us see who the idolators are. Idolators are those who have raised shrines inside their mosques. Ommayad Mosque in Syria has a shrine of John the Baptist/Yahya Nabi. In Madinah, Prophet's tomb and the two other companions iare inside the mosque. Although they say that it is not where they pray, but believe me, women pray towards the tomb of the Prophet because there are no Askaris/Police to stop them. I have been there and seen it with my own eyes.
Again go to Syria and inside the two other Mosques are the tombs of Imam Hussein's daughter and his sister. Go to Iraq in Najaf, there is a tomb of Mowla Ali inside the Mosque. Go to Ajmeir and have you seen the tomb of Moiyuddin Chusti? When people go for Hajj they go to throw stones at the 3 stations of Shaytan??? Really? Shaytan only lives between those 3 pillars and not inside you? Go to Jerusalem, and inside the mosque, the Dome of the Rock, you will see the Prophet's hair and nails.
Now you decide who the idolators are? The tomb worshippers or the followers of the Prophet's Progeny, through whom, Allah S.W.T. has said, are our sins forgiven and upon whose hand the Bayah of Rasul and Allah is done. I'll quote you the Suras.
Come back to us with your answers. I'll be looking forward to continue my discussion with you. Thanks. Virgo2
I think this topic has been discussed in other threads. Please post all your suras here and we will pick up from there. After that I shall quote you all the suras in which Allah S.W.T. says to Obey the Ulil Amr and love the Prophet's progeny and this cannot be anybody but the Imams. Ulil Amr cannot be Bush or Saudi King, and as Hazarat Omar had said, Yazid was Ulil Amr and Omar had asked to do his bayah. I'll provide Hadith from Bukhari to this effect.
In which way do we revere the Imam? Is it because we pray through him? All the Shias pray through him. Ask the Ithnas, Bohoras, Alawites, Druze, etc. If the Bohoras and the Ithnas say that they do not then they are lying through their teeth, because Imam Jafar As-Sadiq has said that "Allah is prayed through us, the Imams".
Now let us see who the idolators are. Idolators are those who have raised shrines inside their mosques. Ommayad Mosque in Syria has a shrine of John the Baptist/Yahya Nabi. In Madinah, Prophet's tomb and the two other companions iare inside the mosque. Although they say that it is not where they pray, but believe me, women pray towards the tomb of the Prophet because there are no Askaris/Police to stop them. I have been there and seen it with my own eyes.
Again go to Syria and inside the two other Mosques are the tombs of Imam Hussein's daughter and his sister. Go to Iraq in Najaf, there is a tomb of Mowla Ali inside the Mosque. Go to Ajmeir and have you seen the tomb of Moiyuddin Chusti? When people go for Hajj they go to throw stones at the 3 stations of Shaytan??? Really? Shaytan only lives between those 3 pillars and not inside you? Go to Jerusalem, and inside the mosque, the Dome of the Rock, you will see the Prophet's hair and nails.
Now you decide who the idolators are? The tomb worshippers or the followers of the Prophet's Progeny, through whom, Allah S.W.T. has said, are our sins forgiven and upon whose hand the Bayah of Rasul and Allah is done. I'll quote you the Suras.
Come back to us with your answers. I'll be looking forward to continue my discussion with you. Thanks. Virgo2
Idolaters or more?
First off let me appolgize because for some reason I cannot use any apostrophes on the computer I am using. lol. With that I would like to say that I do not dispute most of what you have said. Yet I am still skeptical about whether or not we idolize the imam. I completely agree with you that all Shitte muslims follow their own imamat line. Some believe their imam is in hiding. I understand! But every branching of Shitte muslims pray salat or namaz. We on the other hand mention our imams name and then end off with Allahumma lakah suchu thi wah tah thi. They do not pray through their Imam! I remember speaking to a number of elder ppl that went to my JK. They told me that prayer used to consist of a shrine for the imam. Agarbathi would be lit around a picture of the imam and one by one ppl would pray to this picture of the iSeeing as tho the hindus follow a tradition similar to this, I dont doubt that we adopted it from them. There are still a lot of hindu traditions we follow. Also, Virgo, I would disagree that the Druze are muslims. They do not believe in the Shahadah nor do they follow the other 4 Pillars of Islam. This brings me to my next point; why dont we follow the 5 Pillars of Islam to the same extent as other muslims do. Yes, we may follow the Shahadah, Zakat, but what about praying 5 times a day, fasting in the month of Ramadan and actually attending Haj. None of these factors are even talked about in khane besides dasond and the Shahadah to some extent. Although I dont like to judge, I am deeply saddened that majority of my ismaili brothers and sisters do not even fast. I feel that some changes need to be brought into effect. I know the ismaili faith has been and is continuing to change but it needs to be done faster. For Gods sakes, I was frowned upon while I sat on paat because I asked if i could say, may Allah fulfil all our good wishes rather than may Hazar Imam. A lot of ismailis offer no tolerance to different opinions. I love my community but I would like to see more changes! Forgive me if i have been rude in anyway. I only want to fight this frustration i have!
Re: Idolaters or more?
I was trying desperately to stay away from this..but i guess my will power ran outa_gulmani wrote:First off let me appolgize because for some reason I cannot use any apostrophes on the computer I am using. lol. With that I would like to say that I do not dispute most of what you have said. Yet I am still skeptical about whether or not we idolize the imam. I completely agree with you that all Shitte muslims follow their own imamat line. Some believe their imam is in hiding. I understand! But every branching of Shitte muslims pray salat or namaz. We on the other hand mention our imams name and then end off with Allahumma lakah suchu thi wah tah thi. They do not pray through their Imam! I remember speaking to a number of elder ppl that went to my JK. They told me that prayer used to consist of a shrine for the imam. Agarbathi would be lit around a picture of the imam and one by one ppl would pray to this picture of the iSeeing as tho the hindus follow a tradition similar to this, I dont doubt that we adopted it from them. There are still a lot of hindu traditions we follow. Also, Virgo, I would disagree that the Druze are muslims. They do not believe in the Shahadah nor do they follow the other 4 Pillars of Islam. This brings me to my next point; why dont we follow the 5 Pillars of Islam to the same extent as other muslims do. Yes, we may follow the Shahadah, Zakat, but what about praying 5 times a day, fasting in the month of Ramadan and actually attending Haj. None of these factors are even talked about in khane besides dasond and the Shahadah to some extent. Although I dont like to judge, I am deeply saddened that majority of my ismaili brothers and sisters do not even fast. I feel that some changes need to be brought into effect. I know the ismaili faith has been and is continuing to change but it needs to be done faster. For Gods sakes, I was frowned upon while I sat on paat because I asked if i could say, may Allah fulfil all our good wishes rather than may Hazar Imam. A lot of ismailis offer no tolerance to different opinions. I love my community but I would like to see more changes! Forgive me if i have been rude in anyway. I only want to fight this frustration i have!
In regards to praying 5 times a day. It is never prescribed in the Quran.
3 prayers a day are prescribed..not 5.....
You'd like to see more changes?...as per the Imam's farman..which I am very sure either Munir or Nagib is about to quote.."it is only the Imam of the time that can change any aspect of the faith".
When you did Baiyat..you took an oath to follow the Imam..tan, man and dhan....if you can't follow the Imam..then this isn't the faith for you...
Attending Haj? How much money is spent in going to Haj? to me..it seems that money is better spent elsewhere helping poor people..
as per the Imam's farman in Maputo...keep enough to sustain one's self and share the rest with the poor in the community...
How many ismailies have you helped? you talk of following all the tenets of Islam..to me those come from the Imam...and before I ask for any changes..i need to first follow the disciplines of this faith.
I don't like waking up at 4 am every morning to do Bandagi..
why not have bandagi moved to noon..i am always awake at noon.....
This isn't a club as many would think it to be.
I don't mean to be direspectful ..and i apologize if it comes across that way...
If you aren't accepting the Imam as the leader of this faith...and his farmans..then you should reconsider..because you will be very unhappy and frustrated in the long run.
with Ya Ali Madat.
Shams
You're right! One may interpret the Quran as prescribing at least three prayers. But this is only an interpretation. My friend, the Quran does reveal to us five prayer times:
1. Fajr (Dawn Prayer)- Before sunrise. Mentioned in 24:58.
2. Zuhr (Noon Prayer)- As sun declines. Mentioned in 17:78.
3. Asr (Afternoon Prayer)- Between noon and sunset. Mentioned in 2:238.
4. Maghrib (Sunset Prayer)- Right after sunset. Mentioned in 11:114.
5. Isha (Night Prayer)- During the night. Mentioned in 11:114.
Shams do not be mistaken! I am loyal to the imam! But I question certain aspects of the ismaili faith. And as for Haj, I agree with you; money should be used to help the unfortunate. But then again, what about the money we put in khane? Does all of that money go to the poor? At least give me a good idea...? I am not going to get into the specifics of the Hazar Imams life.
And how many ismailis or other communities have I helped? I could always help more and inshallah I will be able to!
Never once have I referred to Ismailism as a club!?
Is it disrespectful to pray namaz after ceremonies in khane completed or is it disrespectful to be kicked out of khane for praying namaz when khane is finished? Do you really think this isn't the faith for me? Do you really think I should reconsider my religion?
Salam wa alaikum!
1. Fajr (Dawn Prayer)- Before sunrise. Mentioned in 24:58.
2. Zuhr (Noon Prayer)- As sun declines. Mentioned in 17:78.
3. Asr (Afternoon Prayer)- Between noon and sunset. Mentioned in 2:238.
4. Maghrib (Sunset Prayer)- Right after sunset. Mentioned in 11:114.
5. Isha (Night Prayer)- During the night. Mentioned in 11:114.
Shams do not be mistaken! I am loyal to the imam! But I question certain aspects of the ismaili faith. And as for Haj, I agree with you; money should be used to help the unfortunate. But then again, what about the money we put in khane? Does all of that money go to the poor? At least give me a good idea...? I am not going to get into the specifics of the Hazar Imams life.
And how many ismailis or other communities have I helped? I could always help more and inshallah I will be able to!
Never once have I referred to Ismailism as a club!?
Is it disrespectful to pray namaz after ceremonies in khane completed or is it disrespectful to be kicked out of khane for praying namaz when khane is finished? Do you really think this isn't the faith for me? Do you really think I should reconsider my religion?
Salam wa alaikum!
Show me one ayat of the quran where the word NAMAZ is mentioned.a_gulmani wrote:You're right! One may interpret the Quran as prescribing at least three prayers. But this is only an interpretation. My friend, the Quran does reveal to us five prayer times:
1. Fajr (Dawn Prayer)- Before sunrise. Mentioned in 24:58.
2. Zuhr (Noon Prayer)- As sun declines. Mentioned in 17:78.
3. Asr (Afternoon Prayer)- Between noon and sunset. Mentioned in 2:238.
4. Maghrib (Sunset Prayer)- Right after sunset. Mentioned in 11:114.
5. Isha (Night Prayer)- During the night. Mentioned in 11:114.
Shams do not be mistaken! I am loyal to the imam! But I question certain aspects of the ismaili faith. And as for Haj, I agree with you; money should be used to help the unfortunate. But then again, what about the money we put in khane? Does all of that money go to the poor? At least give me a good idea...? I am not going to get into the specifics of the Hazar Imams life.
And how many ismailis or other communities have I helped? I could always help more and inshallah I will be able to!
Never once have I referred to Ismailism as a club!?
Is it disrespectful to pray namaz after ceremonies in khane completed or is it disrespectful to be kicked out of khane for praying namaz when khane is finished? Do you really think this isn't the faith for me? Do you really think I should reconsider my religion?
Salam wa alaikum!
Namaz is actually a persian word meaning FIRE WORSHIP.
You might or might not be aware that Jamat Khana's all over the world are the property of Mowlana Hazar Imam, it's his HOUSE..any activity that is practised in HIS HOUSE needs to have his approval.
You want to say SALAT/NAMAZ..you are more than welcome to do it...HOWEVER NOT IN JAMAT KHANA...by doing so..you disrespect all of us ISMAILIES that may be deemed as FANATICS when it comes to the Imam..and in my case..happily so.
All the money we put in Khane..what happens to it or doesn't happen to it..is none of our business...if you are uncomfortable putting money in Jamatkhana..stop doing so..
just go to Mukhi/Kamadia Saheb..fold your hands and say your tobo tobo..they will give you dua...
Money given in Khane is voluntary..and should be given unconditionally.
When you join a faith or a sufi order..you agree to follow all of it's disciplines unconditionally and unquestionable...
and in our case.."in the ISMAILI CULT" (quoted from another website of similar topics) we fanatics (happily so in my case) follow Karim Aga Khan without question, without doubt and unconditionally..as I have promised my TAN, my MAN and DHAN to the Imam..as it was all his to begin with anyways.
Once again..if you can't digest the fact that MHI is the one who calls all the shots and he is all aware..then you will be unhappy and uncomfortable in the long run.
I have seen Farmans of Imams saying your DUA IS A MUST..nowhere has NAMAZ been mentioned..yes in Aga Ali Shah and Aga Hassanali Shah's farmans we are told to run away from the mullahs..however those farmans don't seem to hold any value for you right now..as you've run right back into their arms..
once again...if you want to recite Namaz and practise Shariat..Ismailism isn't for you...seek another path for your spiritual happiness..
With YA ALI MADAT
SHAMS
a_gulmani ..
As you Ask about Haj ... Tell me If for instance if a Person is a Begger And live in some other part of the country e.g pakistan. then do u think he can afford to goto saudi arabia ?
a_gulmani, do u think God live only in Khane-Kaba ? ... NO, Allah is EveryWhere
In My Sense the True Hajj is to See the Nur of Allah in our Life time Thru Ibadat. Not Only You goto the Saudi Arabia, But God is in your Heart if you r Momin .. Like in Quran there has been Said "MOMIN KA DIL ALLAH KA GHAR HAI"
We Have Educate a Child Department in Every JK
We have Welfare System in Jk and in Hospitals
New Project has been started 2 years Back BETTER TOMMOROW in Pakistan JK
AKDN Won Noble Prize for their Developement.
In Welfare/Charity System, We ismailies are No.1
As Far as Roza is Concerned, Imam never told us not to FAST, so it is Farz/Compulsary, Imam himself Fasts in the month of Ramzan
Correct me If i m Wrong
Razi
As you Ask about Haj ... Tell me If for instance if a Person is a Begger And live in some other part of the country e.g pakistan. then do u think he can afford to goto saudi arabia ?
a_gulmani, do u think God live only in Khane-Kaba ? ... NO, Allah is EveryWhere
In My Sense the True Hajj is to See the Nur of Allah in our Life time Thru Ibadat. Not Only You goto the Saudi Arabia, But God is in your Heart if you r Momin .. Like in Quran there has been Said "MOMIN KA DIL ALLAH KA GHAR HAI"
I think, you r not Aware of the systemBut then again, what about the money we put in khane? Does all of that money go to the poor?
We Have Educate a Child Department in Every JK
We have Welfare System in Jk and in Hospitals
New Project has been started 2 years Back BETTER TOMMOROW in Pakistan JK
AKDN Won Noble Prize for their Developement.
In Welfare/Charity System, We ismailies are No.1
As Far as Roza is Concerned, Imam never told us not to FAST, so it is Farz/Compulsary, Imam himself Fasts in the month of Ramzan
Correct me If i m Wrong
Razi
Imam does not fast but even if he was that is none of your business. This thread has already been discussed somewhere else in this Forum. The only month where we are required NOT to fast is Ramazan, you can fast any of the other month as there is no farman ever made that you can not fast the other month.
Nagib
Nagib
I never Said about my Bussiness .. If You Look more closly I was answering Mr. A Gulmani's Quesion in a Whole
As Far as Roza/Fast are Concerned.. We Ismailies Are SHIA IMAMI ISMAILI MUSLIM ... Not to Forget the Word MUSLIM .. If you Belive in Quran then it has been Said that PHYSICAL/SPRITUAL Both Fast are Neccesary ..
Nagib Don't Raise this Topic in this thread.. It has already been Disscussed Somewhere else (Fasting).. I was just answering A Gulmani's Question in Short
As Far as Roza/Fast are Concerned.. We Ismailies Are SHIA IMAMI ISMAILI MUSLIM ... Not to Forget the Word MUSLIM .. If you Belive in Quran then it has been Said that PHYSICAL/SPRITUAL Both Fast are Neccesary ..
Nagib Don't Raise this Topic in this thread.. It has already been Disscussed Somewhere else (Fasting).. I was just answering A Gulmani's Question in Short
Shams once again, I have never referred to Ismailism as a "cult" or a "club". There is no need in raising those particular points! You also stated that "Jamat Khana's all over the world are the property of Mowlana Hazar Imam", "it's his HOUSE", and that "any activity that is practised in HIS HOUSE needs to have his approval." Number one, I am sadly mistaken because I could have sworn that JK is the House of God and not just "HIS [(Mowlana Hazar Imam's)]. Secondly, when did the Hazar Imam ever say he disapproves of one praying "FIRE WORSHIP" (Namaz)! lol! You did notice that I used the word Salat as well! Right? Tell me what the meaning of Salat is...? Well if you don't know, let me educate you; Salat is defined as "the activity of worshipping" or in other words "prayer"!
What in the world??? So let me get this straight, if you "join a faith or a sufi order..you agree to follow all of it's disciplines unconditionally and unquestionable..."? Isn't that blind faith??? or am i mistaken once again? Never once have I ever heard any community say that you are not supposed to question. We are even supposed to question the Quran for ourselves! Shams, who are you to speak on the behalf of his Highness Aga Khan? If you're going to make strong, irrational comments, I suggest you study your material first! I do not mean that rudely. But if you do not know factual information, do not speak out so strongly! I attended Padhrami (Didar) and I heard the Imam state something along the lines of: do not have blind faith, question your religion, and when you find the answers you will be stronger in that faith.
I just want to know: how does the Hazar Imam pray? I'll let you find that one out!
Razinizar, you asked me "if a Person is a Begger And live in some other part of the country e.g pakistan. then do u think he can afford to goto saudi arabia ?" Your question is fair! But what about those pakistanis or other nationalities that want to join a mijlas (I am not "posting on private mijlas or Bol") and cannot afford to do so! How do you think they feel?
I have never said that Allah was not everywhere!? So you can tell me without a doubt (110%), the money we put in khane goes to the places you talked about?
Once again I just want to inform all of you that my question was "Are we idolaters?" I still have not received a proper response!
With Salam wa alaikum (May peace be upon you) and Ya Ali Madat (Oh Ali help)!
What in the world??? So let me get this straight, if you "join a faith or a sufi order..you agree to follow all of it's disciplines unconditionally and unquestionable..."? Isn't that blind faith??? or am i mistaken once again? Never once have I ever heard any community say that you are not supposed to question. We are even supposed to question the Quran for ourselves! Shams, who are you to speak on the behalf of his Highness Aga Khan? If you're going to make strong, irrational comments, I suggest you study your material first! I do not mean that rudely. But if you do not know factual information, do not speak out so strongly! I attended Padhrami (Didar) and I heard the Imam state something along the lines of: do not have blind faith, question your religion, and when you find the answers you will be stronger in that faith.
I just want to know: how does the Hazar Imam pray? I'll let you find that one out!
Razinizar, you asked me "if a Person is a Begger And live in some other part of the country e.g pakistan. then do u think he can afford to goto saudi arabia ?" Your question is fair! But what about those pakistanis or other nationalities that want to join a mijlas (I am not "posting on private mijlas or Bol") and cannot afford to do so! How do you think they feel?
I have never said that Allah was not everywhere!? So you can tell me without a doubt (110%), the money we put in khane goes to the places you talked about?
Once again I just want to inform all of you that my question was "Are we idolaters?" I still have not received a proper response!
With Salam wa alaikum (May peace be upon you) and Ya Ali Madat (Oh Ali help)!
How does Hazar Imam pray? Not for me to know and NOR DO I CARE...a_gulmani wrote:Shams once again, I have never referred to Ismailism as a "cult" or a "club". There is no need in raising those particular points! You also stated that "Jamat Khana's all over the world are the property of Mowlana Hazar Imam", "it's his HOUSE", and that "any activity that is practised in HIS HOUSE needs to have his approval." Number one, I am sadly mistaken because I could have sworn that JK is the House of God and not just "HIS [(Mowlana Hazar Imam's)]. Secondly, when did the Hazar Imam ever say he disapproves of one praying "FIRE WORSHIP" (Namaz)! lol! You did notice that I used the word Salat as well! Right? Tell me what the meaning of Salat is...? Well if you don't know, let me educate you; Salat is defined as "the activity of worshipping" or in other words "prayer"!
What in the world??? So let me get this straight, if you "join a faith or a sufi order..you agree to follow all of it's disciplines unconditionally and unquestionable..."? Isn't that blind faith??? or am i mistaken once again? Never once have I ever heard any community say that you are not supposed to question. We are even supposed to question the Quran for ourselves! Shams, who are you to speak on the behalf of his Highness Aga Khan? If you're going to make strong, irrational comments, I suggest you study your material first! I do not mean that rudely. But if you do not know factual information, do not speak out so strongly! I attended Padhrami (Didar) and I heard the Imam state something along the lines of: do not have blind faith, question your religion, and when you find the answers you will be stronger in that faith.
I just want to know: how does the Hazar Imam pray? I'll let you find that one out!
I have never said that Allah was not everywhere!? So you can tell me without a doubt (110%), the money we put in khane goes to the places you talked about?
Once again I just want to inform all of you that my question was "Are we idolaters?" I still have not received a proper response!
yes JK is the HOUSE OF GOD - and if you follow my posts you will see to me Hazar Imam is GOD TO ME..thus Jamat Khana is HOUSE OF GOD/Hazar Imam
The legal owner of all the Jamat Khanas in the world is Mowlana Hazar Imam...and notice we use the terms Jamat Khanas..not Masjid..or mosque..but Jamat Khana..a very specific term.
AND..as Ismailies..we don't allow NON ISMAILIES TO COME INTO JAMAT KHANA DURING PRAYER TIMES.
You want to say Namaz 5x a day..go for it..
just don't do it in Jamat Khana...
think of it this way..during your 5x a day Namaz/Salat..you recite 20 ayats of the quran
during my 3 x dua..i recite 21 ayats of the quran..go figure...
And as for blind faith..i am not referring to blind faith..I am referring to the baiyat that you took..this isn't I like this rule..so i'll follow it..i don't like this rule..so i won't follow it or change it for me..
this is a take all or leave all proposition.
There are FARMANS - RECENT FARMANS of the IMAM where he's stated that he is the absolute AUTHORITY ON MATTERS OF THE FAITH.
Hell it's in the constitution..
For the money that goes in Jamat Khana..it's none of my business where it goes...
I give to the mukhisaheb voluntariliy...
like i said..you have issues with it..don't give money to jamat khana..Go to mukhisaheb and fold your hands and do your tobho tobho..he will still bless you...
go to the nearest mosque and put it in the box there...and ask them where it goes..see if they are able to tell you....
I grew up in a 3rd world country where the Aga Khan institutions stepped up and filled the gaps in education, in health care, in social welfare...so I am well aware of the use of the funds..
and so what if it goes into the personal pocket of Mowlana Hazar Imam..after all it is all HIS anyways..and I don't pay dasondh for charity..I pay dasondh because it is the RIGHT of the SHAH AND PIR....
my $2.00 aren't going to make a difference to him anyways...
You are questioning where the money goes..how about asking those same questions to your arab brethern who are sitting on billions of dollars of oil revenue and pretending to be muslims but practising rampant acts of hypocrisy, by partaking in homosexual acts and prostitution and intoxication...and being very intolerant of others....
but you will not do that..because to me now it's becoming apparent that you might not be an ismaili at all...like the others that have tried infiltrating and misleading others..you too maybe an imposter...this is the only forum you've posted on since signing up..
As for us being idolators..if my faith and the practise of it..makes me an idolator in your and your shariati brothers eyes..
hell ya..i am one...go ahead and hang me..i am willing to be hanged for that..can you say the same for your faith...
I am willing to go to the hell for eternity for what i believe in..can you lay the same claim?
For when the day of judgement arrives..I will have my Imam with me...which Maulvi will stand next to you and give witness....
once again..if you can't or are unwilling to follow the farmans of MHI unconditionally and 100%..then you should not be an ismaili..because you don't have the conviction..
"our faith is one of conviction..not of conveience"
with Ya Ali Madat.
Shams
Brother, as I stated earlier, all the issues that you have raised have been discussed extensively under their respective threads in this forum. I mentioned the two threads on Imamat, there is a discussion for fasting, prayer, hajj under Customs and Traditions. Please go there and then raise your questions in those threads, otherwise it would be repetitive and boring for others. Thanks!a_gulmani wrote:I am really interested on what kmaherali has to say on what I have written so far and anyone else!
I did not ask this question with the intention of getting anybody riled up; yet it appears that I have done so! Everyone has their own opinions and I have mine. I merely wanted other perspectives on things. I don't think you should be comparing prayers though! What you said about the ayats doesn't say anything! You're writing about information that has no corrolation with what I've spoken about! In other words, what differnce does it make?
Ismailism preaches tolerance yet you show me none. Unlike you, I do not know how the Imam thinks so I am in no position to speak on behalf of him. As for my arab brethern??? Majority of muslims are not arab. The arab muslim population is a minority. There is corruption within many communities! There are many parts in the Quran that speak of what happens to muslims in the after life if they are hypocritical. Those people (that follow: homosexuality, prostitution, intoxication, whatever the case) will get whatever they deserve! What I do not understand is how you are angered when ppl refer to Ismailism as a "club" or a "cult" when you have just stereotyped every arab (when you said ask the same questions to "your arab brethern who are sitting on billions of dollars of oil revenue and pretending to be muslims but practising rampant acts of hypocrisy, by partaking in homosexual acts and prostitution and intoxication...and being very intolerant of others...."). Do not tell me what to do and what not to do! I question every community and I will continue to do so (that includes your arab bretheren as well). As a matter of fact: our arab bretheren! We are united through Islam.
I assure you that I am an Ismaili but I shouldn't have to prove it! Who are you to question that? I do not question your being so do not question mine! This is the only forum I've posted on because I am interested on this particular forum! Would you like me to go on the Anecdotes page and post a couple of ismaili stories for you??? Unbelieveable!
Would I be hung for my faith? The answer is yes! I would give my life for anything I believe in! Would I go to hell for blind faith? No! Inshallah, I wish to follow in the footsteps of what was revealed unto Prophets Abraham and Muhammad and all the Others(they are all important)!
You keep paying dasond! I never said stop! I am sure you give to charities as well (not being sarcastic) and that is very kind of you! No I will not follow the farmans of MHI unconditionally & 100% and I know many other ismailis won't either. So in your eyes we are not ismaili? Like I said... I will always question everything. You are in no position to judge me and say I "should not be an ismaili". You are not God! Do not enforce your opinions on me Brother!
Salam wa alaikum!
Ismailism preaches tolerance yet you show me none. Unlike you, I do not know how the Imam thinks so I am in no position to speak on behalf of him. As for my arab brethern??? Majority of muslims are not arab. The arab muslim population is a minority. There is corruption within many communities! There are many parts in the Quran that speak of what happens to muslims in the after life if they are hypocritical. Those people (that follow: homosexuality, prostitution, intoxication, whatever the case) will get whatever they deserve! What I do not understand is how you are angered when ppl refer to Ismailism as a "club" or a "cult" when you have just stereotyped every arab (when you said ask the same questions to "your arab brethern who are sitting on billions of dollars of oil revenue and pretending to be muslims but practising rampant acts of hypocrisy, by partaking in homosexual acts and prostitution and intoxication...and being very intolerant of others...."). Do not tell me what to do and what not to do! I question every community and I will continue to do so (that includes your arab bretheren as well). As a matter of fact: our arab bretheren! We are united through Islam.
I assure you that I am an Ismaili but I shouldn't have to prove it! Who are you to question that? I do not question your being so do not question mine! This is the only forum I've posted on because I am interested on this particular forum! Would you like me to go on the Anecdotes page and post a couple of ismaili stories for you??? Unbelieveable!
Would I be hung for my faith? The answer is yes! I would give my life for anything I believe in! Would I go to hell for blind faith? No! Inshallah, I wish to follow in the footsteps of what was revealed unto Prophets Abraham and Muhammad and all the Others(they are all important)!
You keep paying dasond! I never said stop! I am sure you give to charities as well (not being sarcastic) and that is very kind of you! No I will not follow the farmans of MHI unconditionally & 100% and I know many other ismailis won't either. So in your eyes we are not ismaili? Like I said... I will always question everything. You are in no position to judge me and say I "should not be an ismaili". You are not God! Do not enforce your opinions on me Brother!
Salam wa alaikum!
Once again..a_gulmani wrote:
You keep paying dasond! I never said stop! I am sure you give to charities as well (not being sarcastic) and that is very kind of you! No I will not follow the farmans of MHI unconditionally & 100% and I know many other ismailis won't either. So in your eyes we are not ismaili? Like I said... I will always question everything. You are in no position to judge me and say I "should not be an ismaili". You are not God! Do not enforce your opinions on me Brother!
Salam wa alaikum!
you don't begin or end with ya Ali madat..you might once or twice but salam alaikum is always part of your message..not that i am saying it is bad. am just pointing out some observations.....
I am also not saying you shouldn't be an ismaili..all i am saying is..Ismailism may not be for you....as you can't seem to be willing to live within our boundaries and are intent on redefining those boundaries..something that isn't in your realm or in your sphere of authority to do.
As per the Constitiuon and the farmans of the Imam..only THE IMAM HAS THAT AUTHORITY.
If you are truly an ismaili as you claim..you would understand the importance of the Imam and his Farmans...
Go study the ismaili constitution...it speaks of the ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY OF THE IMAM...
As for enforcing my opinions...isn't that a case of double standards of hypocrisy...
you want to force us to accept your praying Namaz in our JAMAT KHANA..yet when we tell you you can't...because we have our prayers..and we don't follow the sharaitis...we become bad and we're enforcing our views.. I am not enforcing any of my own views when it comes to prayers..rather i am trying to enlighten you to the farmans of the Imam and the previous Imams and the standard practise of the Ismailies...3x dua which is compulsory.....
.
You took an oath of allegiance to the Imam when you became an Ismaili..
if you can't follow it..rescind it..and follow your own faith..which is what you want to do anyways...
Go say Namaz in a mosque..you will be more than welcome there.
btw..in regards to correlation..the Quran has no prescribed Salat Prayer
or methods on how to pray..it speaks of establishing prayer which is what our DUA given to us by Mowlana Hazar Imam is.
You are attaching importance to Namaz..i was merely pointing out to you the shortcomings of the 5x prayer versus the 3x prayer
You want to do extra curricular stuff..that's great..but fulfill your curricular activities first...
you are a propenent of practises that are backward in the Ismaili faith..Devolutionary..not evolutionary....
As Ismailies and Khojas some of our brethren come from Hindu/Sanatan Dharma backgrounds...as per your arguement they also should be allowed to perform Artis in Jamat Khana in front of Hazar Imam's pictures right?
We are one of very few faiths that truly has a congregational prayer, that can be led either by a man or woman..
next you'll be telling us the quran states women shouldn't be sittig with the men and they should be in Burkhas...
I will not respond to any more posts on this topic. I have made my point a number of times.
with YA ALI MADAT.
Shams
brother a_qulmani,
i am a student and i learn great deal from these forums. reading through this post there are several things i would like to share.
Idolization:
Sunni muslims always criticize hindus for bowing infront of idols, how is bowing infront of Kaaba any different? why is that not a shirk?
i mean if muslims only believe in Allah and Allah does not fit in earth or space but in momins heart(as per Quran) isnt it better to look for him in your heart in morning bandagi as compared to going for Hajj. isnt it more in agreement with the true essance of Islam?.
By the way if Kaaba was that important than Muslims would have started with it from very beginning, instead of bowing towards jerusalm.
Saying that all Ismailis are free from Idolizing would be wrong. As jamat has gotten better educated i think we all are moving more and more towards true ismailism i.e. acquiring intellectual faith.
Cultural influence:
yes there is indianization of Islam that you may see with Ismailis from South Asia. but is Islam (as Sunnis follow) free from influences of previous religions Or culture of its origin?
Pilgrimage existed before Islam.
Sacrificing animals for idol gods existed before islam. even before Abraham it existed. it was called Bali in india and was pretty common in african tribes. they even sacrificed slaves man/women to please their gods.
something interesting i read the other day that Domes/gumbads on mosques and roundess of mosques in the shape of dome, existed before Islam as many ancient tombs in europe are also rounded like a dome. It orginated from pagens who in order to honour goddess of fertility created tombs in round shape to represent stomach of a pregnant women.
Dont get me wrong here i understand we have totally different significance and meaning of gumbads in Islam. what im trying to get to is cultural influences exist in every religion. And Islam is not completely free from it neither are Ismailis.
i am a student and i learn great deal from these forums. reading through this post there are several things i would like to share.
Idolization:
Sunni muslims always criticize hindus for bowing infront of idols, how is bowing infront of Kaaba any different? why is that not a shirk?
i mean if muslims only believe in Allah and Allah does not fit in earth or space but in momins heart(as per Quran) isnt it better to look for him in your heart in morning bandagi as compared to going for Hajj. isnt it more in agreement with the true essance of Islam?.
By the way if Kaaba was that important than Muslims would have started with it from very beginning, instead of bowing towards jerusalm.
Saying that all Ismailis are free from Idolizing would be wrong. As jamat has gotten better educated i think we all are moving more and more towards true ismailism i.e. acquiring intellectual faith.
Cultural influence:
yes there is indianization of Islam that you may see with Ismailis from South Asia. but is Islam (as Sunnis follow) free from influences of previous religions Or culture of its origin?
Pilgrimage existed before Islam.
Sacrificing animals for idol gods existed before islam. even before Abraham it existed. it was called Bali in india and was pretty common in african tribes. they even sacrificed slaves man/women to please their gods.
something interesting i read the other day that Domes/gumbads on mosques and roundess of mosques in the shape of dome, existed before Islam as many ancient tombs in europe are also rounded like a dome. It orginated from pagens who in order to honour goddess of fertility created tombs in round shape to represent stomach of a pregnant women.
Dont get me wrong here i understand we have totally different significance and meaning of gumbads in Islam. what im trying to get to is cultural influences exist in every religion. And Islam is not completely free from it neither are Ismailis.
Fasting
According to my understanding fasting is not obligatory for us. But there is so much more satisfaction and pleasure one acquires by choosing to do it, instead of being forced to do it.
im a young man, single living in western world and i find fasting to be a wonderful thing. It helps build your character, purifies your thought and makes you feel closer to Allah. As prohet muhammad said fating is one thing man does for Allah, while every thing else is for himself.
According to Quran, Young man should fast whenver they can and not only in the month of ramdan. For some fasting is staying hungary while for others it is purity of thoughts and action. You choose whatever works better for your self.
besides i have sunnis coworkers at the job and i find it much easier to fast then explaining them why ismailis dont(and trust me you cant explain any thing to them).
One suggestion i do have is that at the time of lailatul Qadar and Yaume Ali we have a little presantation in jamat khana informing jamat of significance of those days. We could have that at the start of Ramadan, letting jamat know about the historic significance of the month. and telling them benefits of fasting and letting them choose for themselves.
According to my understanding fasting is not obligatory for us. But there is so much more satisfaction and pleasure one acquires by choosing to do it, instead of being forced to do it.
im a young man, single living in western world and i find fasting to be a wonderful thing. It helps build your character, purifies your thought and makes you feel closer to Allah. As prohet muhammad said fating is one thing man does for Allah, while every thing else is for himself.
According to Quran, Young man should fast whenver they can and not only in the month of ramdan. For some fasting is staying hungary while for others it is purity of thoughts and action. You choose whatever works better for your self.
besides i have sunnis coworkers at the job and i find it much easier to fast then explaining them why ismailis dont(and trust me you cant explain any thing to them).
One suggestion i do have is that at the time of lailatul Qadar and Yaume Ali we have a little presantation in jamat khana informing jamat of significance of those days. We could have that at the start of Ramadan, letting jamat know about the historic significance of the month. and telling them benefits of fasting and letting them choose for themselves.
You're right Qiblah (direction of prayer) was originally towards Jerusalem. But then Jews began to believe that Islam was leaning towards Judaism. This misinterpretation was avoided when Qiblah was directed towards Ka'bah. I don't know why prayer was not directed to the Ka'bah first. That is a question I cannot really answer and I don't know if I'll ever get the answer.
The reason Sunnis and most Shiite muslims turn their face towards Ka'bah connects to the idea of Siratul Mustaqeem. Everyones prayers are directed in a straight line (the straight path). Prayers are not dispersed. But as you know someone always has a different interpretation! In terms of whether or not Sunnis idolized Ka'bah the answer is no! They do not pray through the Ka'bah or to it; they pray to God. Also, khanes nowadays are facing Ka'bah as well. A lot of changes have been taking place. They are very slow though!
Although Haj is one of the 5 Pillars of Islam, I have never mentioned that it is mandatory for anyone to go on Haj! Would I like to go? Oh yeah! What an experience that would be! Do I have the money??? No way! I am trying to cope with living costs, tuition fees, etc! There are muslim hypocrites that will follow the 5 Pillars of Islam and this is all they take refuge in. Blind faith! How can you live like that without helping anybody? I will never know! And you are right not all religions are free from cultural influences. For example, if everyone of the same religion is praying in a different language, it takes away the idea of congragation! A mainstream language is better I think!
Again, do Sunnis and most Shittes idolize an entity to the equivalence of God, the answer is a definite no! Ismailis pray through MHI and I'm sure you even understood that from what Shams wrote!
Salam and Ya Ali Madat my Brother of Islam!
The reason Sunnis and most Shiite muslims turn their face towards Ka'bah connects to the idea of Siratul Mustaqeem. Everyones prayers are directed in a straight line (the straight path). Prayers are not dispersed. But as you know someone always has a different interpretation! In terms of whether or not Sunnis idolized Ka'bah the answer is no! They do not pray through the Ka'bah or to it; they pray to God. Also, khanes nowadays are facing Ka'bah as well. A lot of changes have been taking place. They are very slow though!
Although Haj is one of the 5 Pillars of Islam, I have never mentioned that it is mandatory for anyone to go on Haj! Would I like to go? Oh yeah! What an experience that would be! Do I have the money??? No way! I am trying to cope with living costs, tuition fees, etc! There are muslim hypocrites that will follow the 5 Pillars of Islam and this is all they take refuge in. Blind faith! How can you live like that without helping anybody? I will never know! And you are right not all religions are free from cultural influences. For example, if everyone of the same religion is praying in a different language, it takes away the idea of congragation! A mainstream language is better I think!
Again, do Sunnis and most Shittes idolize an entity to the equivalence of God, the answer is a definite no! Ismailis pray through MHI and I'm sure you even understood that from what Shams wrote!
Salam and Ya Ali Madat my Brother of Islam!
azamour, I value what you have written about fasting! You have brought up some really valid points! Experience shapes everyone in a different manner right? Well as a previous Kamadia-Saheb, I observed a lot of disgusting things done with ppls contribution towards dasond in khanes. There is politics everywhere tho! Nothing you can do about it! Not gonna go into the specifics either! But I can honestly say that not all of the money is contributed to where we are told its going to go! And when the question arises, we are told not to question! I would rather volunteer first hand and know I am giving back to the community! Or even give money to a non profit organization that puts it into third world countries. And there are ways of finding out if they are proper charitable organizations! For instance, think about that toothpaste scandal! Ppl thought it was legitimate but it wasn't! What can you do? I believe dasond is giving to those dont have! That is my dasond! Take care my Brother!
May Allah guide us all on the path of Siratal Mustaqeem!
Salam wa alaikum!
May Allah guide us all on the path of Siratal Mustaqeem!
Salam wa alaikum!
i know i said i wouldn't post..however as most of us know..i am passionate about a few things..and i feel that brother gulmani is misleading the younger members of our Jamat.a_gulmani wrote:azamour, I value what you have written about fasting! You have brought up some really valid points! Experience shapes everyone in a different manner right? Well as a previous Kamadia-Saheb, I observed a lot of disgusting things done with ppls contribution towards dasond in khanes. There is politics everywhere tho! Nothing you can do about it! Not gonna go into the specifics either! But I can honestly say that not all of the money is contributed to where we are told its going to go! And when the question arises, we are told not to question! I would rather volunteer first hand and know I am giving back to the community! Or even give money to a non profit organization that puts it into third world countries. And there are ways of finding out if they are proper charitable organizations! For instance, think about that toothpaste scandal! Ppl thought it was legitimate but it wasn't! What can you do? I believe dasond is giving to those dont have! That is my dasond! Take care my Brother!
May Allah guide us all on the path of Siratal Mustaqeem!
Salam wa alaikum!
Do not make the mistake of considering Dasond as charity..it isn't charity.
it is the right of the imam.
This is for all the other "ismailies" out there (except you Gulmani as you are exempt from all that other ismailies are bound to)..
as per the farman of the Imam - dasondh can only be given to the Imam or his appointed representatives..because Dasond is his right..it isn't charity..if you're giving it thinking it's charity..it's better not to give ...
and what happens to dasondh is none of our business after we hand it over..
once again..dasondh is a basic tenet of ismailism...not giving dasondh renders one as not being a follower of the Imam.
and once again..if there is politics in this faith..walk away..go to another faith that permits you to create one's own tenets....
Mowlana Hazar Imam has so simplified our faith for us yet..we can't follow...
S.
I've already answered you question on the topic..maybe you need to read a little more clearly.a_gulmani wrote:I think you need to read everything over again. That way you can stay on topic of this discussion!
I am addressing other "isolated" issues that you tend to bring up in regards to the PRACTICES OF ISMAILISM, changes to which can only be authorized and initiated by the IMAM OF THE TIME - or the MAZHAR OF ALLAH. You claim to be an ismaili, yet you don't accept the heirarchy that it exists in...that's my point.
Shams
Dear brother Gulmani,
You say:
Salat means prayer.
Du'a means to supplicate. Ismailis are smart. They know the difference between Namaz and Du'a. Du'a, in Arabic also means to beg. Now, are you sure that all Muslims pray the same Namaz? There are 73 sects and they all have their own Namaz. So who is right? If you think that going into ruku and going into Sajada is the correct way of praying then why did Prophet, many times, prayed lying down?
I do not know if you read my response to you in which I said that Imam Jaffar-As-Sadiq has said that Allah is prayed through Imams. Now, if other Shias tell you that they do not pray through their Imams then they are lying. Some of them, when they prostrate, they do not touch their head to the ground but touch their head to a tablet made of Karbala's mati. Would you call that stone worship? Are they Najais? Let Allah be the Judge.
Do you know the meaning of Al-Lahum-ma Laka Sujudi wa Ta'aati? I don't think you do. It means "O Allah to Thee is my prostration and obedience." Now, tell me what is wrong with that. We are not bowing to the Imam, and if someone has told you this then he has made a fool out of you.
Also, I suggest you read the meanings of the Du'a one more time. Before we recite the names of the Panjatan Pak and Imams, We say: O Allah, in the name of Muhammad...etc followed by: O Allah, in the name of of our lord Aly (and Imams)... have mercy upon us, etc. What is wrong with this?
As regards your statement about Agarbathi, etc. I think somebody has pulled that out of a hat to convince you that we are worshippers of Imam's pictures. I checked with a few people and nobody has heard of it. I'll still give you the benefit of doubt and say that if that is true then I can only attribute it to the fact that a lot of Ismailis were converted from Hinduism and they might have brought their customs along but eventually the Pirs and Imams weaned them away to the point that we have no such traditions today.
There is a story about Moses and the Shepard. The Shepard called on God and said he (shepard) would like to wash God's hands and feet and comb His hair, etc. Moses scolded him for saying this. God admonished Moses and told him that the Shepard was his true believer. The moral of the story is that "what is in the heart is what is important" and not what is on the surface and only Allah S.W.T. knows who a true believer is. A bearded Mullah does not have these credentials.
Who told you that Druze are not Muslims? Of course they recite the Shahada. I think your sources are misguiding you. I spent a lot of time in Syria and made a lot of Druze friends and they are proper Muslims. I think you seem to mingle with too many Mullas who proclaim everybody that does not follow their path, an infidel or Kafir. Allah is the only Judge and judging other people is a sin. True Ismaili would never judge other faiths.
In the Qur'an Allah S.W.T. says: O Prophet verily those who give Thee their allegiance, they give it but to Allah (Himself): Allah's hand is upon their hands....Sura 48 Ayat 10. (Part IV of our Du'a).
Allah himself has equated the Prophet's hand to His own hand. In other words he has asked us to revere the Prophet as much as Allah Himself. And the Prophet has said, Aly is from me and I am from Aly. He has raised Aly to his own status. So are we wrong in revering the Imam? There is a BIG difference betweeen reverence and worship. We revere the Imam and not worship him. Prophet himself said that anyone who dies without recognising the Imam of the time dies the death of Jahalya.
Also, we revere our Imam, who, when he ascended the Throne of Imamat pledged to dedicate his life to us! He has kept his promise, have we? Do we truly deserve him? And you have the audacity to question the life style of our Imam. This Imam, who does not even have time to get a hair cut and you insinuate that he is living a luxurious life? Did you see how tired he looked at the last deedar in Canada? He had crossed four continents and 3 time zones. Yet, he tried to be cheerful for our sake, and we were all so exhausted from playing dandias and feasting that we could not even recite the salwat!
As regards fasting, you state:
I am deeply saddened that majority of my ismaili brothers and sisters do not even fast?
Is that what has saddened you? It does not sadden you to see our Imam going through 3 time zones and sneak away between meetings to see his Murids? What leader does that? what Mullah does that?
Do you think the majority of Muslims fast? If they fasted then they would not be killing people all over the world or fight major wars in Ramadhan. I know many, many non-Ismaili muslims who do not fast, and I know many many Ismailis who fast. I do not agree with you here.
As regards Hajj: I suggest you really read and find out how many people who go on Hajj follow what the Prophet had said. First of all, in order to perform Hajj, you need permission from your spouse, your parents. If you have any member in the family who is sick, you cannot perform Hajj. You have to liquidate all the debts of all your family members and your own debts. And I have also read that you have to liquidate the debts of your neighbour! This means you cannot have anything on mortgage, or credit card debts. You cannot perform Hajj if your husband or your parents have not performed Hajj. There are many other restrictions. I think our leaders know that it is not possible to satisfy all the conditions so they do not encourage it but they do not stop anybody from going to Hajj. Many Ismailis have performed it. I know many Muslims who have bought their tickets for Hajj on credit cards!!! Also, there are ahadith in which the Prophet is reported to have told Hazarat Ayesha that if it had not been that his people were of pre-Islamic period, he would have abolished the Kabah! Let me know if you want me to quote the ahadith.
By the way, Ismailis, like other Shias follow 7 pillars of Islam as prescribed by Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq and not 5 pillars which you state. Number One of the 7 pillars is Walaya (Love of Imam) without which the other 6 are useless. No amount of Zakah and Sadaqah is enough without Walaya of Imam.
As brother Shams has pointed out, Zakah is to be paid to the Imam only and the Imam does what he pleases with it. Sadaqah is to be given to the poor. No religion will bare its accounts the way AKDN, AKF, FOCUS, ETC. do. So now you know where the money goes. If you still have doubt then you truly are blind.
Ismailis pay Zakah as prescribed in the Qur'an, i.e. Ushr and not 2.5% which other Muslims pay. Nowhere in the Qur'an 2.5% is mentioned. What is mentioned is Ushr, i.e. one-tenth. Now tell me, who is following the qur'an?
Now please tell me why do Muslims have shrines in their Mosques. This was forbidden by the Prophet. Do you know of any Ismaili JK that has a shrine of a dead Prophet or Imam or his family inside a JK. Who are the real Idolators? Who are the bidatis? Please tell me!
I'll respond to your 5 x namaz shortly as I am very busy. Salaams. Virgo2
You say:
As brother Shams says, Namaz is an old Persian word which means fire worship.But every branching of Shitte muslims pray salat or namaz. We on the other hand mention our imams name and then end of with Allahumma lakah suchu this wah tah thi".
Salat means prayer.
Du'a means to supplicate. Ismailis are smart. They know the difference between Namaz and Du'a. Du'a, in Arabic also means to beg. Now, are you sure that all Muslims pray the same Namaz? There are 73 sects and they all have their own Namaz. So who is right? If you think that going into ruku and going into Sajada is the correct way of praying then why did Prophet, many times, prayed lying down?
I do not know if you read my response to you in which I said that Imam Jaffar-As-Sadiq has said that Allah is prayed through Imams. Now, if other Shias tell you that they do not pray through their Imams then they are lying. Some of them, when they prostrate, they do not touch their head to the ground but touch their head to a tablet made of Karbala's mati. Would you call that stone worship? Are they Najais? Let Allah be the Judge.
Do you know the meaning of Al-Lahum-ma Laka Sujudi wa Ta'aati? I don't think you do. It means "O Allah to Thee is my prostration and obedience." Now, tell me what is wrong with that. We are not bowing to the Imam, and if someone has told you this then he has made a fool out of you.
Also, I suggest you read the meanings of the Du'a one more time. Before we recite the names of the Panjatan Pak and Imams, We say: O Allah, in the name of Muhammad...etc followed by: O Allah, in the name of of our lord Aly (and Imams)... have mercy upon us, etc. What is wrong with this?
As regards your statement about Agarbathi, etc. I think somebody has pulled that out of a hat to convince you that we are worshippers of Imam's pictures. I checked with a few people and nobody has heard of it. I'll still give you the benefit of doubt and say that if that is true then I can only attribute it to the fact that a lot of Ismailis were converted from Hinduism and they might have brought their customs along but eventually the Pirs and Imams weaned them away to the point that we have no such traditions today.
There is a story about Moses and the Shepard. The Shepard called on God and said he (shepard) would like to wash God's hands and feet and comb His hair, etc. Moses scolded him for saying this. God admonished Moses and told him that the Shepard was his true believer. The moral of the story is that "what is in the heart is what is important" and not what is on the surface and only Allah S.W.T. knows who a true believer is. A bearded Mullah does not have these credentials.
Who told you that Druze are not Muslims? Of course they recite the Shahada. I think your sources are misguiding you. I spent a lot of time in Syria and made a lot of Druze friends and they are proper Muslims. I think you seem to mingle with too many Mullas who proclaim everybody that does not follow their path, an infidel or Kafir. Allah is the only Judge and judging other people is a sin. True Ismaili would never judge other faiths.
In the Qur'an Allah S.W.T. says: O Prophet verily those who give Thee their allegiance, they give it but to Allah (Himself): Allah's hand is upon their hands....Sura 48 Ayat 10. (Part IV of our Du'a).
Allah himself has equated the Prophet's hand to His own hand. In other words he has asked us to revere the Prophet as much as Allah Himself. And the Prophet has said, Aly is from me and I am from Aly. He has raised Aly to his own status. So are we wrong in revering the Imam? There is a BIG difference betweeen reverence and worship. We revere the Imam and not worship him. Prophet himself said that anyone who dies without recognising the Imam of the time dies the death of Jahalya.
Also, we revere our Imam, who, when he ascended the Throne of Imamat pledged to dedicate his life to us! He has kept his promise, have we? Do we truly deserve him? And you have the audacity to question the life style of our Imam. This Imam, who does not even have time to get a hair cut and you insinuate that he is living a luxurious life? Did you see how tired he looked at the last deedar in Canada? He had crossed four continents and 3 time zones. Yet, he tried to be cheerful for our sake, and we were all so exhausted from playing dandias and feasting that we could not even recite the salwat!
As regards fasting, you state:
I am deeply saddened that majority of my ismaili brothers and sisters do not even fast?
Is that what has saddened you? It does not sadden you to see our Imam going through 3 time zones and sneak away between meetings to see his Murids? What leader does that? what Mullah does that?
Do you think the majority of Muslims fast? If they fasted then they would not be killing people all over the world or fight major wars in Ramadhan. I know many, many non-Ismaili muslims who do not fast, and I know many many Ismailis who fast. I do not agree with you here.
As regards Hajj: I suggest you really read and find out how many people who go on Hajj follow what the Prophet had said. First of all, in order to perform Hajj, you need permission from your spouse, your parents. If you have any member in the family who is sick, you cannot perform Hajj. You have to liquidate all the debts of all your family members and your own debts. And I have also read that you have to liquidate the debts of your neighbour! This means you cannot have anything on mortgage, or credit card debts. You cannot perform Hajj if your husband or your parents have not performed Hajj. There are many other restrictions. I think our leaders know that it is not possible to satisfy all the conditions so they do not encourage it but they do not stop anybody from going to Hajj. Many Ismailis have performed it. I know many Muslims who have bought their tickets for Hajj on credit cards!!! Also, there are ahadith in which the Prophet is reported to have told Hazarat Ayesha that if it had not been that his people were of pre-Islamic period, he would have abolished the Kabah! Let me know if you want me to quote the ahadith.
By the way, Ismailis, like other Shias follow 7 pillars of Islam as prescribed by Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq and not 5 pillars which you state. Number One of the 7 pillars is Walaya (Love of Imam) without which the other 6 are useless. No amount of Zakah and Sadaqah is enough without Walaya of Imam.
As brother Shams has pointed out, Zakah is to be paid to the Imam only and the Imam does what he pleases with it. Sadaqah is to be given to the poor. No religion will bare its accounts the way AKDN, AKF, FOCUS, ETC. do. So now you know where the money goes. If you still have doubt then you truly are blind.
Ismailis pay Zakah as prescribed in the Qur'an, i.e. Ushr and not 2.5% which other Muslims pay. Nowhere in the Qur'an 2.5% is mentioned. What is mentioned is Ushr, i.e. one-tenth. Now tell me, who is following the qur'an?
Now please tell me why do Muslims have shrines in their Mosques. This was forbidden by the Prophet. Do you know of any Ismaili JK that has a shrine of a dead Prophet or Imam or his family inside a JK. Who are the real Idolators? Who are the bidatis? Please tell me!
I'll respond to your 5 x namaz shortly as I am very busy. Salaams. Virgo2
Brother Gulmani,
When I started to respond to you, I thought you were genuinely interested in reaching to the truth, but after reading:
I now believe I am wasting my time with you. However, as I promised, I will definitely revert to you about the 5 x prayers and the suras you quoted. I hope after that you will crawl back into your Hell Hole and rot with the rest of them.
Virgo2
When I started to respond to you, I thought you were genuinely interested in reaching to the truth, but after reading:
I believe you are a hypocrite like others. They all claim to have occupied some post or other like one Iblees did so that they can convince other unsuspecting people that they do not know what is going on behind the curtains. Let me tell you, I have occupied many posts, and so have my kith and kin, including my parents, but nobody has witnessed any of the filth that you claim to have witnessed. You all start of with " I do not mean to offend anybody, but because I want to learn ...and I love my Imam and my faith" What lies!Well as a previous Kamadia-Saheb, I observed a lot of disgusting things done with ppls contribution towards dasond in khanes. There is politics everywhere tho! Nothing you can do about it! Not gonna go into the specifics either! But I can honestly say that not all of the money is contributed to where we are told its going to go!
I now believe I am wasting my time with you. However, as I promised, I will definitely revert to you about the 5 x prayers and the suras you quoted. I hope after that you will crawl back into your Hell Hole and rot with the rest of them.
Virgo2
Wow!?
You started off as a very open minded intellectual person. Wow.. what do i say? Just plz read this whole article... plz!
Virgo 2 said: "There are 73 sects and they all have their own Namaz. So who is right? If you think that going into ruku and going into Sajada is the correct way of praying then why did Prophet, many times, prayed lying down?"
My response: They are all right. The core of salat or namaz or w/e u wanna call it is the same. But brother, when have I ever said that I pray namaz. Once again I am going to tell you as well as I told Shams plz re-read the forum for your own sake!
Virgo 2 said: "Some of them, when they prostrate, they do not touch their head to the ground but touch their head to a tablet made of Karbala's mati. Would you call that stone worship?"
My response: Other Muslims touch their head to a rug! If they want to touch their head to a tablet... what is wrong with that? It makes them feel closer to Karbala, Iraq, but they are not praying to it! Doesn't matter where you touch your head? They are praying to Allah.
Virgo 2 said: "Let Allah be the Judge."
My response: When did I judge them?
Virgo 2 said: "Now, tell me what is wrong with [Al-Lahum-ma Laka Sujudi wa Ta'aati]?"
My response: Nothing! But before you say "Al-Lahum-ma Laka Sujudi wa Ta'aati" what do we say? Shah Karim Al-Husayni! Thus through Shah Karim Al-Husayni I prostrate and am obedient to Allah.
Virgo 2 said: "We say: O Allah, in the name of Muhammad...etc followed by: O Allah, in the name of of our lord Aly (and Imams)... have mercy upon us, etc. What is wrong with this? "
My response: Nothing!
Virgo 2 said: "The moral of the story is that "what is in the heart is what is important" and not what is on the surface and only Allah S.W.T. knows who a true believer is. A bearded Mullah does not have these credentials."
My response: I agree. Many mullah's change the Quran for themselves and others in a manner that suits them best. I am sure those will be punished.
Virgo 2 said: "Who told you that Druze are not Muslims?" and "Allah is the only Judge and judging other people is a sin. True Ismaili would never judge other faiths."
My response: I appologize if I have judged them! That was wrong of me! Many of the aspects that I have studied about Druze contradict the principles of Islam. For example: "When Druze live among people of other religions, they try to blend in, in order to protect their religion and their own safety. They can pray as Muslims, or as Christians, depending on where they are."
(http://i-cias.com/e.o/druze.htm) You have another perspective so enlighten me with it!
Virgo 2 said: "Allah himself has equated the Prophet's hand to His own hand. In other words he has asked us to revere the Prophet as much as Allah Himself."
My response: Lets review that one more time shall we?
Virgo 2 said: "Allah himself has equated the Prophet's hand to His own hand. In other words he has asked us to revere the Prophet as much as Allah Himself."
My response: Where??? When??? What???
Virgo 2 said: "Did you see how tired he looked at the last deedar in Canada? He had crossed four continents and 3 time zones. Yet, he tried to be cheerful for our sake, and we were all so exhausted from playing dandias and feasting that we could not even recite the salwat!"
My response: Virgo 2, brother...! He was receiving an award in Canada! He originally wasn't going to come for Didar! The Tariqah asked MHI to give Didar! He did not come just like that? Yet, it was still kind of him to do so!
Virgo 2 said: "Is that what has saddened you? It does not sadden you to see our Imam going through 3 time zones and sneak away between meetings to see his Murids? What leader does that? what Mullah does that?
My response: Have I referred to any mullahs, shekhs or imams besides Imam Shah Karim Al-Husayni?
Virgo 2 said: "If they fasted then they would not be killing people all over the world or fight major wars in Ramadhan."
My response: Can you stereotype everyone? Keep judging!
Virgo 2 said: "I suggest you really read and find out how many people who go on Hajj follow what the Prophet had said."
My response: Once again, I have never said it was mandatory for you! You wanna do it... do it! Dont wanna do it... don't do it! I said it was one of the 5 Pillars of Islam.
Virgo 2 said: "By the way, Ismailis, like other Shias follow 7 pillars of Islam as prescribed by Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq and not 5 pillars which you state."
My response: The 5 of which I state are in the Quran. These are useless without Walaya (Love of Imam). Keep judging!
Virgo 2 said: " Ismailis pay Zakah as prescribed in the Qur'an, i.e. Ushr and not 2.5% which other Muslims pay. Nowhere in the Qur'an 2.5% is mentioned. What is mentioned is Ushr, i.e. one-tenth."
My response: Did I "insinuate" that ismailis didn't pay Ushr?
Virgo 2 said: "Now tell me, who is following the qur'an?"
My response: Keep judging!
Virgo 2 said: "Now please tell me why do Muslims have shrines in their Mosques. This was forbidden by the Prophet."
My response: Please be specific! Not all muslims have shrines in their Mosques and those who do are idolizing!
Virgo 2 said: "Do you know of any Ismaili JK that has a shrine of a dead Prophet or Imam or his family inside a JK."
My respone: No I do not! But we have other things that I have previously talked about. Why do you think so many pictures of MHI have been removed from khane? Just wait and see brother!
My response to your last msg: You are telling me that you can speak for every single khane that no corruption occurs??? Yet I am sure you can give references to every church, synagogue, temple; like you have with mosques?
You say "Let Allah be the Judge", and yet you judge me and other muslims? You go so far to compare me to the Devil? I have stated there are politics everywhere. Every khane is different! I find myself continuously repeating that to some of you! Experience shapes ppl! I have endured a bad experience and look ... I am put side by side next to the Iblis! You say I have the audacity? I must have struck you quite hard! You have just struck me 100 x harder with your few lines! Ya Allah! Words cannot express how I feel about your comments! You said a "true Ismaili would never judge other faiths." You said "I[(Virgo 2)] believe you are a hypocrite like others." What you said to me... do you know how haraam that is? do you?
As hard as it is for me to say the word Brother right now... Brother believe it or not... I will pray for you!
with Salam wa alaikum and Ya Allah Madat!
Chances are, if your next msg is like what you have just written to me, I will never write back to you again!
Virgo 2 said: "There are 73 sects and they all have their own Namaz. So who is right? If you think that going into ruku and going into Sajada is the correct way of praying then why did Prophet, many times, prayed lying down?"
My response: They are all right. The core of salat or namaz or w/e u wanna call it is the same. But brother, when have I ever said that I pray namaz. Once again I am going to tell you as well as I told Shams plz re-read the forum for your own sake!
Virgo 2 said: "Some of them, when they prostrate, they do not touch their head to the ground but touch their head to a tablet made of Karbala's mati. Would you call that stone worship?"
My response: Other Muslims touch their head to a rug! If they want to touch their head to a tablet... what is wrong with that? It makes them feel closer to Karbala, Iraq, but they are not praying to it! Doesn't matter where you touch your head? They are praying to Allah.
Virgo 2 said: "Let Allah be the Judge."
My response: When did I judge them?
Virgo 2 said: "Now, tell me what is wrong with [Al-Lahum-ma Laka Sujudi wa Ta'aati]?"
My response: Nothing! But before you say "Al-Lahum-ma Laka Sujudi wa Ta'aati" what do we say? Shah Karim Al-Husayni! Thus through Shah Karim Al-Husayni I prostrate and am obedient to Allah.
Virgo 2 said: "We say: O Allah, in the name of Muhammad...etc followed by: O Allah, in the name of of our lord Aly (and Imams)... have mercy upon us, etc. What is wrong with this? "
My response: Nothing!
Virgo 2 said: "The moral of the story is that "what is in the heart is what is important" and not what is on the surface and only Allah S.W.T. knows who a true believer is. A bearded Mullah does not have these credentials."
My response: I agree. Many mullah's change the Quran for themselves and others in a manner that suits them best. I am sure those will be punished.
Virgo 2 said: "Who told you that Druze are not Muslims?" and "Allah is the only Judge and judging other people is a sin. True Ismaili would never judge other faiths."
My response: I appologize if I have judged them! That was wrong of me! Many of the aspects that I have studied about Druze contradict the principles of Islam. For example: "When Druze live among people of other religions, they try to blend in, in order to protect their religion and their own safety. They can pray as Muslims, or as Christians, depending on where they are."
(http://i-cias.com/e.o/druze.htm) You have another perspective so enlighten me with it!
Virgo 2 said: "Allah himself has equated the Prophet's hand to His own hand. In other words he has asked us to revere the Prophet as much as Allah Himself."
My response: Lets review that one more time shall we?
Virgo 2 said: "Allah himself has equated the Prophet's hand to His own hand. In other words he has asked us to revere the Prophet as much as Allah Himself."
My response: Where??? When??? What???
Virgo 2 said: "Did you see how tired he looked at the last deedar in Canada? He had crossed four continents and 3 time zones. Yet, he tried to be cheerful for our sake, and we were all so exhausted from playing dandias and feasting that we could not even recite the salwat!"
My response: Virgo 2, brother...! He was receiving an award in Canada! He originally wasn't going to come for Didar! The Tariqah asked MHI to give Didar! He did not come just like that? Yet, it was still kind of him to do so!
Virgo 2 said: "Is that what has saddened you? It does not sadden you to see our Imam going through 3 time zones and sneak away between meetings to see his Murids? What leader does that? what Mullah does that?
My response: Have I referred to any mullahs, shekhs or imams besides Imam Shah Karim Al-Husayni?
Virgo 2 said: "If they fasted then they would not be killing people all over the world or fight major wars in Ramadhan."
My response: Can you stereotype everyone? Keep judging!
Virgo 2 said: "I suggest you really read and find out how many people who go on Hajj follow what the Prophet had said."
My response: Once again, I have never said it was mandatory for you! You wanna do it... do it! Dont wanna do it... don't do it! I said it was one of the 5 Pillars of Islam.
Virgo 2 said: "By the way, Ismailis, like other Shias follow 7 pillars of Islam as prescribed by Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq and not 5 pillars which you state."
My response: The 5 of which I state are in the Quran. These are useless without Walaya (Love of Imam). Keep judging!
Virgo 2 said: " Ismailis pay Zakah as prescribed in the Qur'an, i.e. Ushr and not 2.5% which other Muslims pay. Nowhere in the Qur'an 2.5% is mentioned. What is mentioned is Ushr, i.e. one-tenth."
My response: Did I "insinuate" that ismailis didn't pay Ushr?
Virgo 2 said: "Now tell me, who is following the qur'an?"
My response: Keep judging!
Virgo 2 said: "Now please tell me why do Muslims have shrines in their Mosques. This was forbidden by the Prophet."
My response: Please be specific! Not all muslims have shrines in their Mosques and those who do are idolizing!
Virgo 2 said: "Do you know of any Ismaili JK that has a shrine of a dead Prophet or Imam or his family inside a JK."
My respone: No I do not! But we have other things that I have previously talked about. Why do you think so many pictures of MHI have been removed from khane? Just wait and see brother!
My response to your last msg: You are telling me that you can speak for every single khane that no corruption occurs??? Yet I am sure you can give references to every church, synagogue, temple; like you have with mosques?
You say "Let Allah be the Judge", and yet you judge me and other muslims? You go so far to compare me to the Devil? I have stated there are politics everywhere. Every khane is different! I find myself continuously repeating that to some of you! Experience shapes ppl! I have endured a bad experience and look ... I am put side by side next to the Iblis! You say I have the audacity? I must have struck you quite hard! You have just struck me 100 x harder with your few lines! Ya Allah! Words cannot express how I feel about your comments! You said a "true Ismaili would never judge other faiths." You said "I[(Virgo 2)] believe you are a hypocrite like others." What you said to me... do you know how haraam that is? do you?
As hard as it is for me to say the word Brother right now... Brother believe it or not... I will pray for you!
with Salam wa alaikum and Ya Allah Madat!
Chances are, if your next msg is like what you have just written to me, I will never write back to you again!
Brother a_gulmani, allow me to interject few lines here between you and Virgo2.
I have seen your few postings, can you like clarify what your agenda is? I mean, it is very visble that you are a former ismaili, nothing wrong with that! But what exactly is that you are trying to achieve here with your comments? Pleaseeeee, do share, I'm dying to hear that out of your mouth.
Thank you.
Wa Salam and Ya Allah Madad to you too.
I have seen your few postings, can you like clarify what your agenda is? I mean, it is very visble that you are a former ismaili, nothing wrong with that! But what exactly is that you are trying to achieve here with your comments? Pleaseeeee, do share, I'm dying to hear that out of your mouth.
Thank you.
Wa Salam and Ya Allah Madad to you too.