Yugas are time periods and Adam is a man created in one of them. They are not two systems.swamidada wrote:When Yugs already existed before Adam, then why God came up with NEW idea of Adam? Hence two systems were in place simultaneously.
Pre-Adam
The notion of Das Avtaars was used in the court of law to establish the legal basis of Imamat and it's institutions in the modern world. It was not merely a conversion tool to brain wash the murids.swamidada wrote:I am not challenging wisdom of Holy men.
In my opinion, it was the strategy of Pirs to include Dus Avtars and reincarnation as converting tools to lure Hindu masses. Pirs used Hindu terminologies in Ginans to brain wash them and they were successful in their mission.
If it were merely a conversion tool, it would not have been recited in our Dua centuries after the conversion!
I did not say that you have to dump older generations. If they have the capacity to learn they should learn. These days facilities and resources are provided by our institutions and hence the affordability should not be a factor.swamidada wrote: Do you mean we should dump the old generations. They knew not about Dus Avtars even today so we neglect them. Is there any Farman of Imam that Central Asian Ismailis MUST learn about Dus Avtars. Uzbeks, Tajiks, mostly Afghans are poor masses, they can't afford to have computers in their houses. Mostly they are without electricity. It is hard for them to make both ends meet.
Dus Avtar is not part a of Ismaili Tenets.
MHI has said that diversity is a strength which of course implies that all the different traditions are available to all the jamats and that we should share and learn from each other.
Where you fit Adam in lineage of Dus Avtars. Is Adam induced as Parashurama?kmaherali wrote:Yugas are time periods and Adam is a man created in one of them. They are not two systems.swamidada wrote:When Yugs already existed before Adam, then why God came up with NEW idea of Adam? Hence two systems were in place simultaneously.
Where is the original text of Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin? Who has one? There has been lot of discussions about it. If some one has, why not to post on this Forum.kmaherali wrote:If it were merely a conversion tool, it would not have been recited in our Dua centuries after the conversion!swamidada wrote:I am not challenging wisdom of Holy men.
In my opinion, it was the strategy of Pirs to include Dus Avtars and reincarnation as converting tools to lure Hindu masses. Pirs used Hindu terminologies in Ginans to brain wash them and they were successful in their mission.
Why Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah did not include Dus Avtars in New Dua if that is so important?
Why Hazar Imam did not mention it in the Tenets of Ismailism in Preamble?
You have mentioned couple of times on this Forum;
CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES, THAT'S WHY IMAM IS PRESENT TO GUIDE US ACCORDINGLY.
According to me, there is difference in Tenets and Traditions. Tenets are fixed but Traditions can vary in jamaits living in different parts of world.kmaherali wrote:I did not say that you have to dump older generations. If they have the capacity to learn they should learn. These days facilities and resources are provided by our institutions and hence the affordability should not be a factor.swamidada wrote: Do you mean we should dump the old generations. They knew not about Dus Avtars even today so we neglect them. Is there any Farman of Imam that Central Asian Ismailis MUST learn about Dus Avtars. Uzbeks, Tajiks, mostly Afghans are poor masses, they can't afford to have computers in their houses. Mostly they are without electricity. It is hard for them to make both ends meet.
Dus Avtar is not part a of Ismaili Tenets.
MHI has said that diversity is a strength which of course implies that all the different traditions are available to all the jamats and that we should share and learn from each other.
I have heard the recitation of the Asal Dua by late Alwaez Shamshudin Bandali Haji. It is available although I have lost my copy.swamidada wrote: Where is the original text of Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin? Who has one? There has been lot of discussions about it. If some one has, why not to post on this Forum.
Why Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah did not include Dus Avtars in New Dua if that is so important?
Why Hazar Imam did not mention it in the Tenets of Ismailism in Preamble?
You have mentioned couple of times on this Forum;
CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES, THAT'S WHY IMAM IS PRESENT TO GUIDE US ACCORDINGLY.
I think the reason that MSMS did not include Das Avtaars in the New Dua is to make our practices understandable to other Muslims as well.
Preamble serves to articulate our faith to others. It is an external document. Hence it would be problematic for other Muslims to understand Islam before Prophet Muhammad. However within our Jamats the notion of Imamat before Hazarat Ali is well established.
The fundamental truths remain the same, although they may be expressed in a different manner depending upon changed circumstances.
Mai(n) tenu ki samjhawa(n) ji..kmaherali wrote:The final Adam was born in the beginning of Budh Avtaar. The first Adam could have been created in any Yuga.swamidada wrote: Where you fit Adam in lineage of Dus Avtars. Is Adam induced as Parashurama?
Question is about first Adam and not final Adam.
Let me try in this way. WHO WAS CREATED FIRST MUCHH OR ADAM?
So you admit Tenets are fixed and applied unanimously for all Ismailis.kmaherali wrote:Nevertheless traditions can be shared across different cultures and languages.swamidada wrote: According to me, there is difference in Tenets and Traditions. Tenets are fixed but Traditions can vary in jamaits living in different parts of world.
The Dua which you heard I did also on cassettes, but that Dua is of 30's and 40's. In 1950 MSMS made some changes in Dua and in 1956 came new Dua in Arabic. I am asking for the original Dua prescribed or written by Pir Sadardin himself. That original text (which is called asal Dua) is not available no where!!!kmaherali wrote:I have heard the recitation of the Asal Dua by late Alwaez Shamshudin Bandali Haji. It is available although I have lost my copy.swamidada wrote: Where is the original text of Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin? Who has one? There has been lot of discussions about it. If some one has, why not to post on this Forum.
Why Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah did not include Dus Avtars in New Dua if that is so important?
Why Hazar Imam did not mention it in the Tenets of Ismailism in Preamble?
You have mentioned couple of times on this Forum;
CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES, THAT'S WHY IMAM IS PRESENT TO GUIDE US ACCORDINGLY.
I think the reason that MSMS did not include Das Avtaars in the New Dua is to make our practices understandable to other Muslims as well.
Dus Avtar is not included in our Dua, the reason is, it is not part of our Tenets.
Preamble is meant for Ismailis that's why it was ordered by Hazar Imam to explain Tenets of Ismailism to all jamaits through out world. If it was meant for non Ismailis then should have published in news papers and advertised on TV. I consider it conspiracy that after 1986 Preamble was never explained to jamaits or put on JK notice boards nor printed and distributed.kmaherali wrote:Preamble serves to articulate our faith to others. It is an external document. Hence it would be problematic for other Muslims to understand Islam before Prophet Muhammad. However within our Jamats the notion of Imamat before Hazarat Ali is well established.swamidada wrote: Where is the original text of Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin? Who has one? There has been lot of discussions about it. If some one has, why not to post on this Forum.
Why Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah did not include Dus Avtars in New Dua if that is so important?
Why Hazar Imam did not mention it in the Tenets of Ismailism in Preamble?
You have mentioned couple of times on this Forum;
CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES, THAT'S WHY IMAM IS PRESENT TO GUIDE US ACCORDINGLY.
Of course the tenets and the constitution in general are meant for the general governance of our institutions. However they are also available to non-Ismailis who are interested in our community and its institutions.swamidada wrote: Preamble is meant for Ismailis that's why it was ordered by Hazar Imam to explain Tenets of Ismailism to all jamaits through out world. If it was meant for non Ismailis then should have published in news papers and advertised on TV. I consider it conspiracy that after 1986 Preamble was never explained to jamaits or put on JK notice boards nor printed and distributed.
Is Chirag e Roshan tradition or a part of Tenet? Tenets are basics in any religion.kmaherali wrote:Tenets articulate the Zaheri aspect of our faith. The traditions on the other hand articulate the Batini aspects. These vary based on historical context.swamidada wrote: So you admit Tenets are fixed and applied unanimously for all Ismailis.
Zahir is roshan, bright, visible but batin is in darkness, not visible.
If some one disobey Tenet it is sin like Tawheed, but if some one do not follow tradition it is not a sin like Chirag e Roshan.kmaherali wrote:It is not part of our tenets, nevertheless it is part of our wonderful tradition.swamidada wrote: Dus Avtar is not included in our Dua, the reason is, it is not part of our Tenets.
Tenets are the sacred rules which every Ismaili has to follow. Regarding non Ismailis now a a days every thing is on internet still they don't trust our beliefs!kmaherali wrote:Of course the tenets and the constitution in general are meant for the general governance of our institutions. However they are also available to non-Ismailis who are interested in our community and its institutions.swamidada wrote: Preamble is meant for Ismailis that's why it was ordered by Hazar Imam to explain Tenets of Ismailism to all jamaits through out world. If it was meant for non Ismailis then should have published in news papers and advertised on TV. I consider it conspiracy that after 1986 Preamble was never explained to jamaits or put on JK notice boards nor printed and distributed.
Chirag e Roshan is part of the of Ismailis of Nasr Khuraw tradition. Tenets are the clothes that we wear as a way of expressing ourselves to the world. The traditions are the body and the substance of our faith.swamidada wrote: Is Chirag e Roshan tradition or a part of Tenet? Tenets are basics in any religion.
Zahir is roshan, bright, visible but batin is in darkness, not visible.
MSMS made a statement at the Mission Conference 1945:swamidada wrote: Mai(n) tenu ki samjhawa(n) ji..
Question is about first Adam and not final Adam.
Let me try in this way. WHO WAS CREATED FIRST MUCHH OR ADAM?
"Number two: In 1905, Juma Bhagat, one of our great missionaries who had rendered great services to me, and other very very pious Ismailis, came to me---that is exactly forty years ago---and said that in the Dua the word which referred to 'fish' should be withdrawn. I said to them: Do you intend to drop one of the foundations of the Faith?
When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above. And of course they understood and dropped it.
Hence fish was in existence before the creation of man.
Good acrobat of words.kmaherali wrote:Tenets are the clothes that we wear as a way of expressing ourselves to the world. The traditions are the body and the substance of our faith.swamidada wrote: Is Chirag e Roshan tradition or a part of Tenet? Tenets are basics in any religion.
Zahir is roshan, bright, visible but batin is in darkness, not visible.
How come Chirag e Roshan be substance of our faith when majority of Ismailis do not follow that tradition.
In Ismaili faith what is the significance of FISH? Can you explain in what terms Fish is one of the foundations of our faith?kmaherali wrote:MSMS made a statement at the Mission Conference 1945:swamidada wrote: Mai(n) tenu ki samjhawa(n) ji..
Question is about first Adam and not final Adam.
Let me try in this way. WHO WAS CREATED FIRST MUCHH OR ADAM?
"Number two: In 1905, Juma Bhagat, one of our great missionaries who had rendered great services to me, and other very very pious Ismailis, came to me---that is exactly forty years ago---and said that in the Dua the word which referred to 'fish' should be withdrawn. I said to them: Do you intend to drop one of the foundations of the Faith?
When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above. And of course they understood and dropped it.Hence fish was in existence before the creation of man.
It means first creation of God is FISH and not ADAM in this world.
In sequence Adam as a human being is at stage 5th/6th. First Muchh, then Kuchh, followed by Korumbh, Varaha and ......
When Farman comes from Above and God is witness, we can not have doubts, whether we understand the meaning or not.
What Imam is saying is that there was a time when there was nothing on earth but Fish (no mankind) and at that time God stood as witness.
This is compatible with Quran saying that in the beginning His Throne of God was over the waters.
What Imam is saying is that there was a time when there was nothing on earth but Fish (no mankind) and at that time God stood as witness.
This is compatible with Quran saying that in the beginning His Throne of God was over the waters.
The essence of the Chirag ceremony is the celebrate the Light of Imamat, which is true of all traditions. The expressions may vary but the essence are the same.swamidada wrote: Good acrobat of words.
How come Chirag e Roshan be substance of our faith when majority of Ismailis do not follow that tradition.
Khat Niranjan verses: 28 -30Admin wrote: This is compatible with Quran saying that in the beginning His Throne of God was over the waters.
pahelaa rachyaa jamin aasmaan
At first he created the earth and the heavens
Pahele aasmaane utaaryaa Noor
At the first heaven, he brought down the Noor
tyaare sirajyaa chando ne sur
then he created the moon and the sun
Bije aasmaane utaaryaa kavan
At the second heaven he brought down the Ginan (Kavan means poem)
tyaare sirajyaa paanni ne pavan
Thereby he created water and wind
Beside Quran the above Ginan parts also resemble with the Genesis chapter one of old testament;kmaherali wrote:Khat Niranjan verses: 28 -30Admin wrote: This is compatible with Quran saying that in the beginning His Throne of God was over the waters.
pahelaa rachyaa jamin aasmaan
At first he created the earth and the heavens
Pahele aasmaane utaaryaa Noor
At the first heaven, he brought down the Noor
tyaare sirajyaa chando ne sur
then he created the moon and the sun
Bije aasmaane utaaryaa kavan
At the second heaven he brought down the Ginan (Kavan means poem)
tyaare sirajyaa paanni ne pavan
Thereby he created water and wind
THE BOOK OF GENESIS
Chapter 1
[1:1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,
[1:2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
[1:3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
[1:4] And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
[1:5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
[1:6] And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
[1:7] So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
[1:8] God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
[1:9] And God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
[1:10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
[1:11] Then God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it." And it was so.
Interestingly there is no mention of FISH in water in Quran, Ginan, and old testament!!
You wrote 'to celebrate the light of Imamat'. where as following paragraph suggests, it is for the eternal peace of departed soul!!kmaherali wrote:The essence of the Chirag ceremony is the celebrate the Light of Imamat, which is true of all traditions.swamidada wrote: Good acrobat of words.
How come Chirag e Roshan be substance of our faith when majority of Ismailis do not follow that tradition.
Chiragh-I-Rawshan - An Ismaili Tradition in Central Asia
in Chiragh Rawshan English
bibliography_link: Chiragh-I-Rawshan - An Ismaili Tradition in Central Asia
The
word chiragh is derived from the Syriac shrag or shragh,
meaning lamp, and Chiragh-i Rawshan means shining or luminous
lamp, which is one of the oldest surviving Ismaili traditions in the
regions of the Central Asia. It is an assembly (majalis) of the
believers, where a lamp is illumined, which is its hallmark, and the Koranic
verses are chanted for the eternal peace of the departed soul, or for the
prosperity of one who is alive.
Adopted from Ismaili.net
In Quran there is no mention of FISH swimming in water next to Throne.Admin wrote:
What Imam is saying is that there was a time when there was nothing on earth but Fish (no mankind) and at that time God stood as witness.
This is compatible with Quran saying that in the beginning His Throne of God was over the waters.
I am curious want to understand, "Why Imam used the word FISH, there should be some signification in relation to Ismailism".
In a Farman MSMS said, read my Farmans seriously, there is deep meaning and ponder on them.