Pre-Adam

[Heiswithinme]

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.

You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is o­ne and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at different places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here o­nly BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?

Roxy
When we live in time and space and try to understand that which is above all else with our limited Human Intellect which is itself a creation of Allah, this type of post is what results.

The concept of a limited human intellect being able to understanding God is inherently flawed.

Our entire existence is contingent upon him and He is completely independent of all else.

He is above and beyond our highest evolved thought. Al- Mutaali is o­ne of the Names of Allah. Along with As-Samad and Al-Ahad.

We have lived our entire lives in the realm of time, Eternity is a concept we cannot even fathom.

The humility required in this search comes as you progress in it and eventually realize that you are so insignificant against his Vastness that you give up your Identity in the process and become fana (annihilated).

"Mai aur tu ki doori cchor, Ek dekh kuch do nahin<BR>Aisa samaj fana ho usme, tu nahi to woh sahi hai.

Think of a bubble floating in the air. What comparison is the air inside it to the rest of the atmosphere.

The bubble cannot even fathom the vastness of the atmosphere of this earth.

Now, when the bubble bursts it becomes o&shy;ne with the atmosphere. The only thing between its identity and the Vast Air around it was it's identity itself.

This example is a MINUSCULE one compared to the vastness of Allah and our limited selves.

I believe the search to be to recognize the self and discover that our identity is in fact nothing but a spiritual delusion. (A false belief that we exist as seperate from Allah)

The waves in the Ocean may think themselves to be seperate from the ocean and argue with each other o&shy;n the Forums of Ismaili.net but they were never, are not and never will be seperated from the Vast Limitless Ocean of Allah.

So let us progress towards discovering self instead of trying to Understand Him, Who defies Human understanding as he is above and beyond the Human Imagination.


Excellent post Shamsu... especially the bubble example in terms of understanding the concept of Fana Fillah. To those who are seeking all the answers about the Ismaili faith from Quran alone will be greatly disappointed. Quran is the true word of Allah but is incomplete and even then, it is written in allegories so we cannot take everything at it's face value. That is where the farmans of our Holy Imams and holy ginans come in and clear any misconceptions. Our Imam is the speaking Quran Himself so His word is superior to that of the Quran. Shamsu, your knowledge regarding the farmas and ginans is very vast and I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts.

[kmaherali]

Studying evolution might help...To anyone... how do I disable these tags?

Click the edit mode and delete them!

[Ali77]

Such ideas according to which God created universe on a specific time IMAM SULTAN MUHAMMAD SHAH(SA) said that this is the jewish idea of creation moula in that farman said that creation is perpetual and eternal on other occation moula said" IF U ASK ME A THOUSAND TIME WHAT WAS BEFORE ADAM MY ANS. WILL BE "ADAM" this is the ismaili point of view on on creation and pre adam if u read fatimids priod dais it wil becom clear that there is no begning and no ending in creation and there is creation after creation so if u think that there was a time when God created nothing it means that at that time he was not KHALIQ. not RAZIQ ,RAHMAN, GHAFUR etc and if so God and his acts become accidental and a thing which is accidental HADIS according to our dais can not be God. God and his every action is QADEEM eternal.
for more understanding read PIR NASIR KHUSROW'S 'GHUSHAISH WA REHAISH' which is published by Institute of ismaile studies london Titled Knowleged and libration'

[email protected]
Ameer Ali

[hamida777]

ali77 thanks for quotin the farman of SMS it makes things about creation very clear........... this is a thought i got after reading it that adam repesents one of each kind i guess leading to the fundermental tat is tawhid...oneness and unity...... would like to know more bout creation and ismaili point of view......

[Ali77]

ali77 thanks for quotin the farman of SMS it makes things about creation very clear........... this is a thought i got after reading it that adam repesents o&shy;ne of each kind i guess leading to the fundermental tat is tawhid...oneness and unity...... would like to know more bout creation and ismaili point of view......

hammida777 thanks. it is stated in " Tarikh e ibn e khaldoon " page 542 about brith of prophet muhammad that it took place 7000 thousands years after adam. this hadith is narrated by abdullah ibn abbaas . then think logicaly about this hadith and other narations in all religion(chirstanity,jews and in islam) according to which adam is about 7000-10,000 years old then how we can explan the research according to which farming started about 20,000 to 25,0000 BC.and there are pictographys about 50,000 bc . thats y in our islmaili literature there is the concept of cycle and each cycle in about 7000 year and the adam who was at 7000 bc called "Adam e sarandibe" = adam of sirlanka. and adam was not his name but title thats y we say Adam e zaman to mola hazir imam. in short there is creation whiout begning and endding creation in one sens there is begning and endding but as a whole this continous for ever such as day and night starts and end in one sens on other this cycle never ends.as far as tawhid this is explan by our dais in different angal in which God is above existance and non existance "hasti o nisti"

[Norm]

The word "GOD" derives from the German word "GOTT" which means "King of Wisdom"

According to a 1998 Billy Meier interview:

...No Creator-God exists in this sense. The Big Bang did not come about through the strength or might of one god, but did so, simply and exclusively, through spiritual- and material-physical as well as chemical processes, that were triggered and directed by a young Universal Consciousness, respectively Creation. The term "God" has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of the world or the universe, stars, galaxies and the like, for the expression "God" has existed in the vastness of the universe for billions of years, from ancient times to the present, and it represents nothing more than the title of a person. Initially this title was "Ishwish" which means "God" when translated into our languages. But Ishwish, respectively god, is nothing more than another term for "King of Wisdom." It is a purely human title assigned to humans who were particularly knowledgeable, wise, and who possessed great mastery in everything. This term's significance, however, was distorted and falsified by humans on Earth, particularly by the early religions and those experienced in profiting from using the word. The result was that God, as a King of Wisdom, was removed and the people turned him into a Creator-God who, allegedly, had created the Earth, the sun and outer space. Numerous individuals, such as Jehovah and many others, even claimed of themselves to be Creator-Gods with the consequence that they were also revered and worshiped. One thing led to another and soon the original meaning of the word "God" was forgotten and, consequently, the purported Creator-Gods were able to victoriously march into the realm of the people's religions, sects and faiths.

Quote from The Psyche (book):

The word GOD, from time immemorial, has been used as a designation for human beings who, because of their spiritual and consciousness-based powers and their abilities resulting from them, were able to master and accomplish things which remained denied to kings and emperors.

Because of their abilities, these human beings were consequently named GODS or GODDESSES, which means nothing other than 'standing above the emperors and kings' (spiritually and in a consciousness-based manner).

Standing higher in esteem and honour than the princes of the land and the sovereigns themselves, those named gods were asked for advice by these and by the people alike and were revered as human beings with tremendous knowledge and spiritual, as well as consciousness-based ability.....

.....However, it would be false, presumptuous and irresponsible to name this Creation GOD because the Creation is neither God nor anything similar....

Quote from Goblet of the Truth (book):

p. 509

105) The destiny which you determine yourselves through your thoughts and feelings, through your activity and your actions and deeds is based on consequences, i.e. effects which you yourselves create through distinct causes and which you then have to bear as your destiny, both in the good as in the evil.

108) Each destiny and each interaction is thus preceded by your own free and willing decision, and this means that with each first decision and volition you create something each time which manifests itself to you as interaction and destiny; therefore, you will, sooner or later, have to live in what you today determinatively create through your thoughts and feelings, through your activity and through your deeds and actions and out of which you will inevitably have to bear the consequences when you are struck by it, that is by the destiny.

Quote from Arahat Athersata (book)

p. 144

554. Therefore, the truth is only intended for those who recognize all harshness and bitterness of the truth and the words that announce it, and who are able to process and evaluate it.

555. All others are not yet ripe enough for it and must become developed in lengthy clarification-work for the understanding of the truth.

562. And because this is so, it is the highest obligation of all those even only the half-way knowing ones, wherever willing ears are, to scatter the seeds of the Teaching Of The Spirit and to support the work of those who announce harsh and bitter words of the truth.

[swamidada]

The name of thread is PRE ADAM means before Adam.
Why God made statue of Adam when there were thousands of Adam created before. God already had models of previous Adams then what forced Him to make a new model. Were those models defective or He disliked them? Why the brain of that new Adam was not creative and innovative say 6000 years back in the beginning. Looks like God has kept modifying brain of children of Adam, installing new chips, modified tiny brain computers, creating new brain cells, increasing power of brain memory. God is not satisfied with humans, they are pain in neck!!

[kmaherali]

The name of thread is PRE ADAM means before Adam.
Why God made statue of Adam when there were thousands of Adam created before.

The statue does not refer to Hazarat Adam. What makes you say that God created statues for all the Adams?

[swamidada]

The name of thread is PRE ADAM means before Adam.
Why God made statue of Adam when there were thousands of Adam created before.

The statue does not refer to Hazarat Adam. What makes you say that God created statues for all the Adams?

In a Hadith Qudsi, God has said," I kneaded the clay of Adam's creation with both My hands every morning for fort days".

[kmaherali]

In a Hadith Qudsi, God has said," I kneaded the clay of Adam's creation with both My hands every morning for fort days".

How can you say that it was Hazarat Adam from the hadith you have quoted?

[Admin]

In his Farman, Aga Ali Shah says of these 40 days, 40 days, the clay was plunged into the water of hell and 40 days into the water of heaven. Such a symbolism!

[swamidada]

In a Hadith Qudsi, God has said," I kneaded the clay of Adam's creation with both My hands every morning for fort days".

How can you say that it was Hazarat Adam from the hadith you have quoted?

On the reference of Quran and Old Testament.

[kmaherali]

On the reference of Quran and Old Testament.

Provide them please!

[swamidada]

On the reference of Quran and Old Testament.

Provide them please!

Al Quran:
“And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (Quran 38:71-72)

Indeed, the example of Jesus in the sight of Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, “Be!” And he was! 3:59


He (Iblis) said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay." 38:76

The Bible:
There are several instances given in the Bible referring to clay. In Job 33:6 it states: I also am formed out of the clay.

Another passage that refers to clay is found in Isaiah 64:8: But now, 0 Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

[kmaherali]

None of the above verses imply that it was Hazarat Adam, the first Prophet in the present cycle.

The Adam referred to in your references is the first man, unless of course you are implying that the first man was created 7000 years ago.

[swamidada]

None of the above verses imply that it was Hazarat Adam, the first Prophet in the present cycle.

The Adam referred to in your references is the first man, unless of course you are implying that the first man was created 7000 years ago.

Do you believe in Quran and Bible? The names of Christ and Adam are used in Quranic verse 3:59.

Regarding cycle "CHAKAR", there is no mention of cycles in Quran, Bible, and Ginanic literature. The cyclic theory was devised in Fatimid period.

[kmaherali]

Do you believe in Quran and Bible? The names of Christ and Adam are used in Quranic verse 3:59.

Regarding cycle "CHAKAR", there is no mention of cycles in Quran, Bible, and Ginanic literature. The cyclic theory was devised in Fatimid period.

Just because the name Adam is mentioned, does not imply that he was Hazarat Adam the Prophet.

The feras and yugas are mentioned in the Ginans!

[swamidada]

Do you believe in Quran and Bible? The names of Christ and Adam are used in Quranic verse 3:59.

Regarding cycle "CHAKAR", there is no mention of cycles in Quran, Bible, and Ginanic literature. The cyclic theory was devised in Fatimid period.

Just because the name Adam is mentioned, does not imply that he was Hazarat Adam the Prophet.

The feras and yugas are mentioned in the Ginans!

In Quran various Prophets are named without Title Prophet, will you deny them, like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and so on. Hadith and Ginan mention Adam as a prophet.

You are misusing the Ginanic terms 'Feras' and 'Yugas'. In Ginanic literature Feras are used in meaning of 'NAJAAT', salvation 'Lakh chourasi na fera'.

In Hindu mythology and Ginans there is mention of 4 YUGAS AND NOT 7 CYCLES. These are Krita, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali, the fifth is unknown Frita!!

[kmaherali]

In Quran various Prophets are named without Title Prophet, will you deny them, like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and so on. Hadith and Ginan mention Adam as a prophet.

If it was Hazarat Adam, then are you implying the first man appeared 7000 years ago?

You are misusing the Ginanic terms 'Feras' and 'Yugas'. In Ginanic literature Feras are used in meaning of 'NAJAAT', salvation 'Lakh chourasi na fera'.

In Hindu mythology and Ginans there is mention of 4 YUGAS AND NOT 7 CYCLES. These are Krita, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali, the fifth is unknown Frita!!

Call it whatever you may. The point is that history goes through cycles and there where many many Adams!

The following is a quote from Ibn Arabi's book "Divine Governance of the Human Kingdom" by Ibn 'Arabi as as interpreted by Sunni Sufi Shaykh Tosun Bayrak al-Jerrahi al-Halveti. This reinforces the view of many many Adams.

"As I was circumambulating the Kaaba, I saw a strange person, quite different in appearance from what I was accustomed to seeing among the people. As he walked around the Kaaba he continually recited, "We, like you, are circumambulating this House." I caught up with him and asked him who he was. He said I am your ancestor far removed."

"When did you live?"
"I died over forty thousand years ago."
"They say Adam, may Allah's blessing be upon him, was the first man,
and lived only six thousand years ago."
"Which Adam do you mean? Know that he is only the last
of one hundred thousand Adams who came and passed away before him."

[swamidada]

In Quran various Prophets are named without Title Prophet, will you deny them, like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and so on. Hadith and Ginan mention Adam as a prophet.

If it was Hazarat Adam, then are you implying the first man appeared 7000 years ago?

Personally I do not accept the figure 7000. The 7000 is mentioned in Hebrew religious literature and trickled down in Islamic literature.
I do believe there were thousands Adams before the last one. It is mentioned in Ginanic literature;
ASHTT CRORE BRAHMA AGEY TE UPPAYA

The discussion started is not about how many Adams were before final Adam but about the cycles after the last Adam. I mentioned in previous post that CYCLIC theory was adopted in Fatimid period starting with last Adam and divided in 7 stages of 1000 years period which comes to 7000. Fatimid Cyclic stages are not mentioned in Ginanic literature.

[swamidada]

You are misusing the Ginanic terms 'Feras' and 'Yugas'. In Ginanic literature Feras are used in meaning of 'NAJAAT', salvation 'Lakh chourasi na fera'.

In Hindu mythology and Ginans there is mention of 4 YUGAS AND NOT 7 CYCLES. These are Krita, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali, the fifth is unknown Frita!!

Call it whatever you may. The point is that history goes through cycles and there where many many Adams!

You have habit of twisting the statements and moving attention of readers to some other territory. The words Feras and Yugs were used by you, and when I countered it you came up with " Call it whatever you may". Question is about 7 CYCLES after Adam and not before in Ismaili literature.

[kmaherali]

Personally I do not accept the figure 7000. The 7000 is mentioned in Hebrew religious literature and trickled down in Islamic literature.
I do believe there were thousands Adams before the last one. It is mentioned in Ginanic literature;
ASHTT CRORE BRAHMA AGEY TE UPPAYA

On the one hand you are saying that there were thousands of Adams and then you are saying that the Adam mentioned in the scriptures is Hazarat Adam the Prophet in this cycle. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

The discussion started is not about how many Adams were before final Adam but about the cycles after the last Adam. I mentioned in previous post that CYCLIC theory was adopted in Fatimid period starting with last Adam and divided in 7 stages of 1000 years period which comes to 7000. Fatimid Cyclic stages are not mentioned in Ginanic literature.

The cycles after Adam do not have any bearing on this subject at all. However there were cycles before Adam. That was the point I made. Whether you call them Yugas or feras, they are still cycles.

[kmaherali]

You have habit of twisting the statements and moving attention of readers to some other territory. The words Feras and Yugs were used by you, and when I countered it you came up with " Call it whatever you may". Question is about 7 CYCLES after Adam and not before in Ismaili literature.

The cycles after Adam has no relevance in this discussion. However there were cycles before Adam. that is the point I was making.

[swamidada]

Personally I do not accept the figure 7000. The 7000 is mentioned in Hebrew religious literature and trickled down in Islamic literature.
I do believe there were thousands Adams before the last one. It is mentioned in Ginanic literature;
ASHTT CRORE BRAHMA AGEY TE UPPAYA

On the one hand you are saying that there were thousands of Adams and then you are saying that the Adam mentioned in the scriptures is Hazarat Adam the Prophet in this cycle. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

I am discussing cycles which started with Prophet Adam. 6 passed now we are in the 7th cycle. The duration of each cycle is around 1000 years.

The Seven Cycles (“The Seven Days”) all together form a Major Cycle (“The Week”) of seven thousand years which began with the Prophet Adam – the Adam of the Quran & and the Bible. (A paragraph from Ismaili Gnosis).

You can deduce Prophet Adam's model of cycles be applied on the Adams before the last Adam. We don't know how many Adams were produced by Lord and in what form, do they have 3 eyes, 3 hands, 3 legs, how they looked, there is no recorded information.

[swamidada]

The discussion started is not about how many Adams were before final Adam but about the cycles after the last Adam. I mentioned in previous post that CYCLIC theory was adopted in Fatimid period starting with last Adam and divided in 7 stages of 1000 years period which comes to 7000. Fatimid Cyclic stages are not mentioned in Ginanic literature.

The cycles after Adam do not have any bearing on this subject at all. However there were cycles before Adam. That was the point I made. Whether you call them Yugas or feras, they are still cycles.

Please do not distort recorded history. Let me refresh your mind, " In Hindu mythology and Ginans there is mention of 4 YUGAS AND NOT 7 CYCLES. These are Krita, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali, the fifth is unknown Frita!!
The 4 established YUGAS are not cycles within cycles. If you extend 4 Yugas to 40 I don't mind. Yugas can't be compared with Ismaili Cyclic Thought.

[kmaherali]

I am discussing cycles which started with Prophet Adam. 6 passed now we are in the 7th cycle. The duration of each cycle is around 1000 years.

The Seven Cycles (“The Seven Days”) all together form a Major Cycle (“The Week”) of seven thousand years which began with the Prophet Adam – the Adam of the Quran & and the Bible. (A paragraph from Ismaili Gnosis).

You can deduce Prophet Adam's model of cycles be applied on the Adams before the last Adam. We don't know how many Adams were produced by Lord and in what form, do they have 3 eyes, 3 hands, 3 legs, how they looked, there is no recorded information.

The Adam of the Quran and the Bible points to the first Adam not the latest one who was Prophet Adam.

[swamidada]

I am discussing cycles which started with Prophet Adam. 6 passed now we are in the 7th cycle. The duration of each cycle is around 1000 years.

The Seven Cycles (“The Seven Days”) all together form a Major Cycle (“The Week”) of seven thousand years which began with the Prophet Adam – the Adam of the Quran & and the Bible. (A paragraph from Ismaili Gnosis).

You can deduce Prophet Adam's model of cycles be applied on the Adams before the last Adam. We don't know how many Adams were produced by Lord and in what form, do they have 3 eyes, 3 hands, 3 legs, how they looked, there is no recorded information.

The Adam of the Quran and the Bible points to the first Adam not the latest one who was Prophet Adam.

So you accepted that Allah made statue of first Adam with His both hands.
Now here is an interesting point. Allah made the statue of first Adam but later Adams were born through womb of mother! Kiya yeh khula tazzad nahi hai!

[kmaherali]

made statue of first Adam with His both hands.
Now here is an interesting point. Allah made the statue of first Adam but later Adams were born through womb of mother! Kiya yeh khula tazzad nahi hai!

Yes the later Adams were indeed born through the womb of mothers. Prophet Adam was the son of the Imam and the father of the Imam. Just like Prince Aly Khan

[swamidada]

made statue of first Adam with His both hands.
Now here is an interesting point. Allah made the statue of first Adam but later Adams were born through womb of mother! Kiya yeh khula tazzad nahi hai!

Yes the later Adams were indeed born through the womb of mothers. Prophet Adam was the son of the Imam and the father of the Imam. Just like Prince Aly Khan

You admitted, "Yes the later Adams were indeed born through the womb of mothers".
This is against the Sunnah or principle or tradition of Allah. Quran says;
FALAN TAJIDA LI SUNATILLAHI TABDEELA 35/43
There can not be change in My Sunnah

There is a twist in story. Very first Adam a statute and rest from womb of mothers!!

[kmaherali]

You admitted, "Yes the later Adams were indeed born through the womb of mothers".
This is against the Sunnah or principle or tradition of Allah. Quran says;
FALAN TAJIDA LI SUNATILLAHI TABDEELA 35/43
There can not be change in My Sunnah

There is a twist in story. Very first Adam a statute and rest from womb of mothers!!

So how did creating a statue for all Adams become a Sunnah of Allah?