‘Seeking the Face of God’:
The Safawid Ḥikmat Tradition’s Conceptualisation of Walaya Takwiniya
Sajjad Rizvi
Excerpt:
For Safawid thinkers, the Shiʿi faith is at its heart centred upon the notion of
walaya as a dual concept of the ontological status of the Imams and the devotion and initiatic adherence that disciples and followers owe to the Imams. Such a concept is not an invention of that period; Amir-Moezzi has, I think successfully, demonstrated its earlier precedents.11 However, it becomes the cornerstone of the new dispensation and revival of Shiʿi heritage that was a central concern of the Safawid project intellectually and spiritually. It was the work of the late Henry Corbin that made the most significant contribution to our understanding of the centrality of walaya
to Shiʿi Islam: as the central mode through which God was manifest in the pleroma of the ahl al-bayt through and beyond history, and the primary esoteric hermeneutic for under-standing revelation.12 The cosmos and indeed history is therefore defined through the walaya of the ahl al-bayt
as the mediation between God and human, a ‘hiero-histoire’ through which ‘esoteric’ Islam, in Corbin’s words, defies the ‘socialisation’ of the spiritual, or the poverty of a historicisation of a religious dispensation.13 The triumph of walaya therefore lies in its political incompletion. It is the Imams who define history, initiate it and accomplish and complete it at the end of times. It is their walaya that frames history and expresses their authority and power over time and space. While one may quibble with Corbin’s esotericising project, his identification of Shiʿi Islam as more than ‘Imāmism’ understood in a limited manner is an important genuflection to the notion of walaya takwiniya as a cosmological and ontological status that the ahl al-bayt
possess. It is both a prophetic (and gnostic) philosophy and an initatic approach to religion. In a significant chapter entitled ‘prophétologie et imāmologie’, Corbin demonstrates the coupling of Shiʿi ḥadith on the imamate with the concept of walaya in the Shiʿified school of Ibn ʿArabi from Sayyid Ḥaydar Amulī (d. after1385) to Mullaa Ṣadraa: the Imams as inheritors of the prophets complete the function of prophecy as revelation and as the face of God, the deus revelatus.14 The rational idea of the necessity of the Imam, or the proof of God (ḥujja) found in the ḥadith and the kalaam tradition, becomes an existential sine qua non of the cosmos as well as the epistemological condition for knowing God.15 Corbin’s main source in this chapter is Mullaa Ṣadraas famous commentary on the
Kitaab al-ḥujja of al-Kulayni’s al-Kaafi. For those who support the notion of
walaya takwiniya, this conception arises out of the reading of the ḥadith
including those ecstatic sayings attributed to Imam ʿAlī (and considered by specialists of Shiʿi ḥadith to be of dubious provenance) such as the
khuṭbat al-bayaan (The Expository Sermon).16 These texts present the Imam as eternal principle, pre-existing, existing outside of history and surviving history implicit in the famous saying of Imam ʿAli (mirroring a similar saying of the Prophet): ‘I was a wali even when Adam was still in the mixture of water and clay ( kuntu waliyanwa-Adam bayn al-maaʾ wa’l-ṭin).’
The entire article can be accessed at:
https://www.academia.edu/4377414/_prepu ... Bn%C4%ABya
Allah and the Nur of Allah
Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq: “From amongst us shall be the one over whose head the sun shall come down, and then rise from the place where it sets”
Posted by Nimira Dewji
Pachham deesaa hoi chadde aakaashaa,
Jaai dekhyaa agam tamaashaa.64
The skies in the West glow
And one witnesses a unique and unparalleled show of Light – Nur.
(Brahm Prakash v. 64)
The mysterious illumination of the western heavens is held to be a symbolic rendition of a spiritual experience. The 150-verse Brahm Prakash composed by Pir Shams relates the gnostic ascent of the mystic.
The Sun has for long been a primary symbol of divinity in man’s religious consciousness. … The Ancient Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, Aztec, Navaho, Wachagga, and Shinto traditions are a few of the many who have granted prominent roles to solar figures in their respective pantheons. In Islam, the Qur’an-e Shariff contains numerous references to the Sun as one of the ayat of Allah’s presence in the universe…”
And of His signs (ayat)
Are the night and the day,
the sun and the moon” (41:37)
In the Shi’i tradition, the Sun was generally a symbol of the Imam. Sufi writings also used the Sun “as a major mystical symbol; this is especially apparent in the poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi” (Karim, The Significance of the ‘Western Sunrise’ in the Isma’ili Tradition, Hikmat p 12). The Ikhwan al-Safa, a tenth century brotherhood, who wrote an encyclopedic work (Rasa’il) “gave a prominent place to the sun in their scheme of the universe. S.H. Nasr paraphrases the Ikhwan’s conception of the Sun’s place in the physical universe:
God has placed the Sun at the centre of the universe…. Below it stands Venus, Mercury, Moon, the sphere of air, and the earth and above it there are another five spheres, those of Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the fixed stars …. The Sun is thus ‘the heart of the universe’ and ‘the sign of God in the heavens and the earth.’ It is also the source of light for the whole Universe, light which in its most direct way symbolizes the effusion of Being” (An Introduction to Islamic Cosmological Doctrines p 77).
“The vital nature of the Sun and its light in the material universe of the Ikhwan’s geocentric cosmology can be said to parallel the indispensability of the Imam and his nur to the spiritual world. Hence, the Ikhwan employed the symbol of the Sun in the cosmos to portray the Imam as the existential hub of the universe” (Karim, Hikmat p 12).
Spiritual Geography
The four cardinal points – east, west, north, and south – are directions which orient oneself geographically in the world in relation to the geographic north.
“The organization, the plan, of this network has depended since time immemorial on a single point: the point of orientation, the heavenly north, the pole star” (Corbin, Man of Light p 1).
The rising of the Sun in the east refers to the light of the day as it succeeds the night. “Between the two, there is “a two-fold twilight: the crepusculum vespertinum, no longer day but not yet night; the crepusculum matutinum, no longer night but not yet day. Daylight breaks in the middle of the night and turns into day a night which is still there but which is a Night of light.” Iranian Sufi masters refer to the Night of light… as the black Light.”(Corbin, Man of Light p 4).
In Sufi literature, the Orient, a mystical east, is not a geographic direction, but rather the realm of light, “the place of the Origin and Return, the object of the eternal Quest” (Corbin, Man of Light p 2). ‘Black light’ is not a colour, but the lack of it. “It is light in its purest, most ‘unmaterial’ sense, that is, spiritual light. Therefore ‘black light’ does not exist in the material universe but can be gnostically perceived by the mystic when he stands witness to ‘the dawn in the west.'” (Karim, Hikmat p 12).
“Isma’ili tradition traces the earliest-known mention of the mystical illumination of the western sky to a [saying] of Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq:
“From amongst us (the Imams) shall come…salvation (hadi) and the Mahdi, the rightful Guide (muhtadi) and the one by whom people shall be led … From amongst us shall be the one over whose head the sun shall come down, and then rise from the place where it sets.”
In the zaheri (exoteric), historical terms, this “has been seen as a prophecy of the establishment of the Fatimid Empire in the [10th century]… However, the esoteric (batini) interpretation … transcends history and stands as a spiritual metaphor of the awakening of mystical enlightenment in the followers of the Imam…. it goes far beyond the confines of the terrestrial concepts of history and geography” (Karim, Hikmat p 12).
Spiritual North Pole
In spiritual geography, “the North, the Orient, and the Occident are not situated on our terrestrial maps. They have a vertical, heavenly orientation as opposed to the usually-understood horizontal directions. The rising of the Sun from the west, the side of the night, denotes a mystical ‘midnight sun,’ a symbol which has appeared in the esoteric literature of various traditions. The Mathnavi of Jalal al-Din Rumi devotes several lines to the experience of witnessing ‘a sun at midnight.’ And the Ishraqi school of Sufism, which is well-known for its concepts of spiritual lights perceived in gnostic experience, also speaks of the ‘midnight sun.'” (Karim, Hikmat p 14).
“The journey toward the Orient of pure light is a journey without return. Once the gnostic has become divorced from the world of matter and is allowed to enter the realm of pure forms, the domain of the angels, he does not fall back into the darkness of this world, just as in alchemy once the gold is made it cannot be unmade into a base metal” (Nasr, Islamic Cosmological Doctrines p 266).
“This is the place of its origin. North in this heavenly dimension is the location of paradise and the closer one approaches its pole (qutb) the freer is one of the dark shackles of materialism. It is the place where spiritual light (nur) shines brightest. In the Indian (Hindu) mystical tradition the northern Sun is referred to as Uttara-kurus” (Karim, Hikmat p 15). Corbin states that the souls of the people of Uttara-kurus, have “reached such completeness and harmony that it is devoid of negativity and shadow; it is neither of the east nor of the west” (Man of Light p 40).
Pir Sadr al-Din tells his converts:
The Light of the Lord will shine brightly
in the Northern Continent (Uttar-khand)”
Uttar khand mahe Shah ni jot jaageva
(tr. M. & Z. Kamaluddin, Ginan Central University of Saskatchewan)
“In Isma’ili belief the northern spiritual pole is the heavenly symbol of the Imam. Professor Henri Corbin interpreted the Ismai’ili concept of the ‘western sunrise’ as referring “specifically to the Imam who is the pole (qutb), the keystone and axis of the esoteric hierarchy” (Man of Light p 40). The Imam is the personal guide (murshid) of the murid in the spiritual endeavours of the latter.. .Light dispels darkness as the gnostic moves further away from the Occident and rises to the northern qutb by means of dhikr [the murid’s link with the murshid]. When he ultimately attains the dawn of spiritual recognition (shinakht) of his Imam the sky is said to be mystically illuminated in the west” (Karim, Hikmat p 15).
The ‘midnight sun’ therefore corresponds directly to the Ismai’ili gnostic’s relation with his Imam. Its manifestation occurs with the culmination of his mystic quest. He now experiences spiritual realization of the Imam who he hitherto knew only in exoteric terms. Every Imam as the Mahdi and the Qa’im of his followers makes possible the ‘western sunrise’ as he guides them to spiritual enlightenment” (Karim, Hikmat p 15).
He brings them forth from the shadows into the light.
Qur’an 2:257
Adapted from The Significance of the ‘Western Sunrise’ in the Isma’ili Tradition by Karim H. Karim, published in Hikmat, July 1984
Henry Corbin, Man of Light in Iranian Sufism translated from French by Nancy Pearson, Omega Publications, New York, 1971
https://nimirasblog.wordpress.com/2020/ ... e-it-sets/
Posted by Nimira Dewji
Pachham deesaa hoi chadde aakaashaa,
Jaai dekhyaa agam tamaashaa.64
The skies in the West glow
And one witnesses a unique and unparalleled show of Light – Nur.
(Brahm Prakash v. 64)
The mysterious illumination of the western heavens is held to be a symbolic rendition of a spiritual experience. The 150-verse Brahm Prakash composed by Pir Shams relates the gnostic ascent of the mystic.
The Sun has for long been a primary symbol of divinity in man’s religious consciousness. … The Ancient Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, Aztec, Navaho, Wachagga, and Shinto traditions are a few of the many who have granted prominent roles to solar figures in their respective pantheons. In Islam, the Qur’an-e Shariff contains numerous references to the Sun as one of the ayat of Allah’s presence in the universe…”
And of His signs (ayat)
Are the night and the day,
the sun and the moon” (41:37)
In the Shi’i tradition, the Sun was generally a symbol of the Imam. Sufi writings also used the Sun “as a major mystical symbol; this is especially apparent in the poetry of Jalal al-Din Rumi” (Karim, The Significance of the ‘Western Sunrise’ in the Isma’ili Tradition, Hikmat p 12). The Ikhwan al-Safa, a tenth century brotherhood, who wrote an encyclopedic work (Rasa’il) “gave a prominent place to the sun in their scheme of the universe. S.H. Nasr paraphrases the Ikhwan’s conception of the Sun’s place in the physical universe:
God has placed the Sun at the centre of the universe…. Below it stands Venus, Mercury, Moon, the sphere of air, and the earth and above it there are another five spheres, those of Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the fixed stars …. The Sun is thus ‘the heart of the universe’ and ‘the sign of God in the heavens and the earth.’ It is also the source of light for the whole Universe, light which in its most direct way symbolizes the effusion of Being” (An Introduction to Islamic Cosmological Doctrines p 77).
“The vital nature of the Sun and its light in the material universe of the Ikhwan’s geocentric cosmology can be said to parallel the indispensability of the Imam and his nur to the spiritual world. Hence, the Ikhwan employed the symbol of the Sun in the cosmos to portray the Imam as the existential hub of the universe” (Karim, Hikmat p 12).
Spiritual Geography
The four cardinal points – east, west, north, and south – are directions which orient oneself geographically in the world in relation to the geographic north.
“The organization, the plan, of this network has depended since time immemorial on a single point: the point of orientation, the heavenly north, the pole star” (Corbin, Man of Light p 1).
The rising of the Sun in the east refers to the light of the day as it succeeds the night. “Between the two, there is “a two-fold twilight: the crepusculum vespertinum, no longer day but not yet night; the crepusculum matutinum, no longer night but not yet day. Daylight breaks in the middle of the night and turns into day a night which is still there but which is a Night of light.” Iranian Sufi masters refer to the Night of light… as the black Light.”(Corbin, Man of Light p 4).
In Sufi literature, the Orient, a mystical east, is not a geographic direction, but rather the realm of light, “the place of the Origin and Return, the object of the eternal Quest” (Corbin, Man of Light p 2). ‘Black light’ is not a colour, but the lack of it. “It is light in its purest, most ‘unmaterial’ sense, that is, spiritual light. Therefore ‘black light’ does not exist in the material universe but can be gnostically perceived by the mystic when he stands witness to ‘the dawn in the west.'” (Karim, Hikmat p 12).
“Isma’ili tradition traces the earliest-known mention of the mystical illumination of the western sky to a [saying] of Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq:
“From amongst us (the Imams) shall come…salvation (hadi) and the Mahdi, the rightful Guide (muhtadi) and the one by whom people shall be led … From amongst us shall be the one over whose head the sun shall come down, and then rise from the place where it sets.”
In the zaheri (exoteric), historical terms, this “has been seen as a prophecy of the establishment of the Fatimid Empire in the [10th century]… However, the esoteric (batini) interpretation … transcends history and stands as a spiritual metaphor of the awakening of mystical enlightenment in the followers of the Imam…. it goes far beyond the confines of the terrestrial concepts of history and geography” (Karim, Hikmat p 12).
Spiritual North Pole
In spiritual geography, “the North, the Orient, and the Occident are not situated on our terrestrial maps. They have a vertical, heavenly orientation as opposed to the usually-understood horizontal directions. The rising of the Sun from the west, the side of the night, denotes a mystical ‘midnight sun,’ a symbol which has appeared in the esoteric literature of various traditions. The Mathnavi of Jalal al-Din Rumi devotes several lines to the experience of witnessing ‘a sun at midnight.’ And the Ishraqi school of Sufism, which is well-known for its concepts of spiritual lights perceived in gnostic experience, also speaks of the ‘midnight sun.'” (Karim, Hikmat p 14).
“The journey toward the Orient of pure light is a journey without return. Once the gnostic has become divorced from the world of matter and is allowed to enter the realm of pure forms, the domain of the angels, he does not fall back into the darkness of this world, just as in alchemy once the gold is made it cannot be unmade into a base metal” (Nasr, Islamic Cosmological Doctrines p 266).
“This is the place of its origin. North in this heavenly dimension is the location of paradise and the closer one approaches its pole (qutb) the freer is one of the dark shackles of materialism. It is the place where spiritual light (nur) shines brightest. In the Indian (Hindu) mystical tradition the northern Sun is referred to as Uttara-kurus” (Karim, Hikmat p 15). Corbin states that the souls of the people of Uttara-kurus, have “reached such completeness and harmony that it is devoid of negativity and shadow; it is neither of the east nor of the west” (Man of Light p 40).
Pir Sadr al-Din tells his converts:
The Light of the Lord will shine brightly
in the Northern Continent (Uttar-khand)”
Uttar khand mahe Shah ni jot jaageva
(tr. M. & Z. Kamaluddin, Ginan Central University of Saskatchewan)
“In Isma’ili belief the northern spiritual pole is the heavenly symbol of the Imam. Professor Henri Corbin interpreted the Ismai’ili concept of the ‘western sunrise’ as referring “specifically to the Imam who is the pole (qutb), the keystone and axis of the esoteric hierarchy” (Man of Light p 40). The Imam is the personal guide (murshid) of the murid in the spiritual endeavours of the latter.. .Light dispels darkness as the gnostic moves further away from the Occident and rises to the northern qutb by means of dhikr [the murid’s link with the murshid]. When he ultimately attains the dawn of spiritual recognition (shinakht) of his Imam the sky is said to be mystically illuminated in the west” (Karim, Hikmat p 15).
The ‘midnight sun’ therefore corresponds directly to the Ismai’ili gnostic’s relation with his Imam. Its manifestation occurs with the culmination of his mystic quest. He now experiences spiritual realization of the Imam who he hitherto knew only in exoteric terms. Every Imam as the Mahdi and the Qa’im of his followers makes possible the ‘western sunrise’ as he guides them to spiritual enlightenment” (Karim, Hikmat p 15).
He brings them forth from the shadows into the light.
Qur’an 2:257
Adapted from The Significance of the ‘Western Sunrise’ in the Isma’ili Tradition by Karim H. Karim, published in Hikmat, July 1984
Henry Corbin, Man of Light in Iranian Sufism translated from French by Nancy Pearson, Omega Publications, New York, 1971
https://nimirasblog.wordpress.com/2020/ ... e-it-sets/
God has placed the Sun at the centre of the universe…. Below it stands Venus, Mercury, Moon, the sphere of air, and the earth and above it there are another five spheres, those of Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the fixed stars …. The Sun is thus ‘the heart of the universe’ and ‘the sign of God in the heavens and the earth.’ It is also the source of light for the whole Universe, light which in its most direct way symbolizes the effusion of Being” (An Introduction to Islamic Cosmological Doctrines p 77).
With reference to above paragraph by Nimira Devji, I have few questions.
1. Is the sun at the center of Universe, Above standing five planets and below five? If it is in symbolic form, what is the significance of these 10 planets in spiritualism? What science and astrology says about above statement?
2. Is the sun heart of Universe?
3. Is the sun literally and physically source of light for the whole Universe?
With reference to above paragraph by Nimira Devji, I have few questions.
1. Is the sun at the center of Universe, Above standing five planets and below five? If it is in symbolic form, what is the significance of these 10 planets in spiritualism? What science and astrology says about above statement?
2. Is the sun heart of Universe?
3. Is the sun literally and physically source of light for the whole Universe?
Posted by Nimira Dewji
Pachham deesaa hoi chadde aakaashaa,
Jaai dekhyaa agam tamaashaa.
The skies in the West glow
And one witnesses a unique and unparalleled show of Light – Nur.
(Brahm Prakash v. 64)
Pir Sadr al-Din tells his converts:
The Light of the Lord will shine brightly
in the Northern Continent (Uttar-khand)”
Uttar khand mahe Shah ni jot jaageva
With reference to 2 above parts of Ginans, what is PACHHAM DESH and UTTAR KHANDH? Where are these located? Are these 2 different continents for zahuraat?
Pachham deesaa hoi chadde aakaashaa,
Jaai dekhyaa agam tamaashaa.
The skies in the West glow
And one witnesses a unique and unparalleled show of Light – Nur.
(Brahm Prakash v. 64)
Pir Sadr al-Din tells his converts:
The Light of the Lord will shine brightly
in the Northern Continent (Uttar-khand)”
Uttar khand mahe Shah ni jot jaageva
With reference to 2 above parts of Ginans, what is PACHHAM DESH and UTTAR KHANDH? Where are these located? Are these 2 different continents for zahuraat?
Let me remind that during the opening of Burnaby JK in Vancouver Mowlana Hazar Imam asked Sultanali Nazarali Missionary "What are your thoughts about this JK?" - the Missionary related to me that he replied "Utak Khand mahe Shah ni Jot Jagewa" and before he could translate it for Hazar Imam, Mowlana Shah Karim told him "Yes, but don't forget, Utar Khand is also Europe.
She has stated:swamidada wrote: With reference to above paragraph by Nimira Devji, I have few questions.
1. Is the sun at the center of Universe, Above standing five planets and below five? If it is in symbolic form, what is the significance of these 10 planets in spiritualism? What science and astrology says about above statement?
2. Is the sun heart of Universe?
3. Is the sun literally and physically source of light for the whole Universe?
The Ikhwan al-Safa, a tenth century brotherhood, who wrote an encyclopedic work (Rasa’il) “gave a prominent place to the sun in their scheme of the universe. S.H. Nasr paraphrases the Ikhwan’s conception of the Sun’s place in the physical universe:
God has placed the Sun at the centre of the universe…. Below it stands Venus, Mercury, Moon, the sphere of air, and the earth and above it there are another five spheres, those of Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the fixed stars …. The Sun is thus ‘the heart of the universe’ and ‘the sign of God in the heavens and the earth.’ It is also the source of light for the whole Universe, light which in its most direct way symbolizes the effusion of Being” (An Introduction to Islamic Cosmological Doctrines p 77).
It is Ikhwan al-Safa's view according to the knowledge available then. Of course scientific view of the universe has changed since then.
The article states:swamidada wrote: With reference to 2 above parts of Ginans, what is PACHHAM DESH and UTTAR KHANDH? Where are these located? Are these 2 different continents for zahuraat?
In spiritual geography, “the North, the Orient, and the Occident are not situated on our terrestrial maps. They have a vertical, heavenly orientation as opposed to the usually-understood horizontal directions. The rising of the Sun from the west, the side of the night, denotes a mystical ‘midnight sun,’ a symbol which has appeared in the esoteric literature of various traditions. The Mathnavi of Jalal al-Din Rumi devotes several lines to the experience of witnessing ‘a sun at midnight.’ And the Ishraqi school of Sufism, which is well-known for its concepts of spiritual lights perceived in gnostic experience, also speaks of the ‘midnight sun.'” (Karim, Hikmat p 14).
“The journey toward the Orient of pure light is a journey without return. Once the gnostic has become divorced from the world of matter and is allowed to enter the realm of pure forms, the domain of the angels, he does not fall back into the darkness of this world, just as in alchemy once the gold is made it cannot be unmade into a base metal” (Nasr, Islamic Cosmological Doctrines p 266).
“This is the place of its origin. North in this heavenly dimension is the location of paradise and the closer one approaches its pole (qutb) the freer is one of the dark shackles of materialism. It is the place where spiritual light (nur) shines brightest. In the Indian (Hindu) mystical tradition the northern Sun is referred to as Uttara-kurus” (Karim, Hikmat p 15). Corbin states that the souls of the people of Uttara-kurus, have “reached such completeness and harmony that it is devoid of negativity and shadow; it is neither of the east nor of the west” (Man of Light p 40).
Can you elaborate Hazar Imam's saying," Utar Khand is also Europe".Admin wrote:Let me remind that during the opening of Burnaby JK in Vancouver Mowlana Hazar Imam asked Sultanali Nazarali Missionary "What are your thoughts about this JK?" - the Missionary related to me that he replied "Utak Khand mahe Shah ni Jot Jagewa" and before he could translate it for Hazar Imam, Mowlana Shah Karim told him "Yes, but don't forget, Utar Khand is also Europe.
My question is about Pachham Desh and Utar Khand? Spiritual geography, Spiritual history, Spiritual vertical, Spiritual horizontal, Spiritual IT, Spiritual google, can't solve these problems. Quran says," Mashreq (east)and Maghreb (west) belong to Allah", Al Baqarah. There is no mention of Shimaal (north).kmaherali wrote:The article states:swamidada wrote: With reference to 2 above parts of Ginans, what is PACHHAM DESH and UTTAR KHANDH? Where are these located? Are these 2 different continents for zahuraat?
In spiritual geography, “the North, the Orient, and the Occident are not situated on our terrestrial maps. They have a vertical, heavenly orientation as opposed to the usually-understood horizontal directions. The rising of the Sun from the west, the side of the night, denotes a mystical ‘midnight sun,’ a symbol which has appeared in the esoteric literature of various traditions. The Mathnavi of Jalal al-Din Rumi devotes several lines to the experience of witnessing ‘a sun at midnight.’ And the Ishraqi school of Sufism, which is well-known for its concepts of spiritual lights perceived in gnostic experience, also speaks of the ‘midnight sun.'” (Karim, Hikmat p 14).
Sun never rises or sets or stop moving. Midnight sun in symbolic form of who? Midnight sun is an imaginary terminology.
What midnight sun has to do with Pachham Desh or Utar Khand?
In your post about the article you posted about the correspondence between the brain and the universe, you said that the microcosm is equal to macrocosm. What dis you mean by that?swamidada wrote:My question is about Pachham Desh and Utar Khand? Spiritual geography, Spiritual history, Spiritual vertical, Spiritual horizontal, Spiritual IT, Spiritual google, can't solve these problems. Quran says," Mashreq (east)and Maghreb (west) belong to Allah", Al Baqarah. There is no mention of Shimaal (north).
Sun never rises or sets or stop moving. Midnight sun in symbolic form of who? Midnight sun is an imaginary terminology.
What midnight sun has to do with Pachham Desh or Utar Khand?
In the Ginan: Sakhi Mahaapad keri vaat, Pir Sadadeen says:
sakhee arasparas naa kott joyaa neesaree re
evaa sapt dip nav khand ke joyaa parakhee re.....................10
O beloved ones, (In this state), I have observed having gone to that state,
marble forts and palaces. I have also seen and verified for myself,
the seven islands and the nine continents (the entire world) in the experience.
The whole world is within as explained in the above verse.
Uttar Khand and Paccham desh are locations within the body where the Divine manifests. Uttar Khand meaning the northern continent can be interpreted as Bhamar Gufa - the northern point of the body.
At the time the verses were composed, pachham desh was the western continent in relation to the Indian Sub continent. It was the place that the Imam physically manifested. Hence within our bodies pachham desh is were the noor manifests in the spiritual experience. Mid night Sun alludes to the experience of Light - Noor in our bodies.
By microcosm and macrocosm I mean what elements are in Universe are in human body. Be it gold, silver, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, magnesium, potassium, iron and so on, what ever elements are found and will be found in future.kmaherali wrote:In your post about the article you posted about the correspondence between the brain and the universe, you said that the microcosm is equal to macrocosm. What dis you mean by that?swamidada wrote:My question is about Pachham Desh and Utar Khand? Spiritual geography, Spiritual history, Spiritual vertical, Spiritual horizontal, Spiritual IT, Spiritual google, can't solve these problems. Quran says," Mashreq (east)and Maghreb (west) belong to Allah", Al Baqarah. There is no mention of Shimaal (north).
Sun never rises or sets or stop moving. Midnight sun in symbolic form of who? Midnight sun is an imaginary terminology.
What midnight sun has to do with Pachham Desh or Utar Khand?
Is man's Bhamar Gufa on front or on back of forehead? Is Bhamar Gufa visible?kmaherali wrote:swamidada wrote:My question is about Pachham Desh and Utar Khand? Spiritual geography, Spiritual history, Spiritual vertical, Spiritual horizontal, Spiritual IT, Spiritual google, can't solve these problems. Quran says," Mashreq (east)and Maghreb (west) belong to Allah", Al Baqarah. There is no mention of Shimaal (north).
Sun never rises or sets or stop moving. Midnight sun in symbolic form of who? Midnight sun is an imaginary terminology.
What midnight sun has to do with Pachham Desh or Utar Khand?
Uttar Khand and Paccham desh are locations within the body where the Divine manifests. Uttar Khand meaning the northern continent can be interpreted as Bhamar Gufa - the northern point of the body.
Say I am pointing my face towards south in ibadat and not facing north means my Bhamar Gufa will be called south khand. You know well north and south sides of planet earth are related terms.
I said: Uttar Khand meaning the northern continent can be interpreted as Bhamar Gufa - the northern point of the body.swamidada wrote: Is man's Bhamar Gufa on front or on back of forehead? Is Bhamar Gufa visible?
Say I am pointing my face towards south in ibadat and not facing north means my Bhamar Gufa will be called south khand. You know well north and south sides of planet earth are related terms.
It can also be interpreted as an part of the body where the experience happens. It depends upon the background and practice. For some individuals it happens in the heart as : Dil manhe del pujie, dilmanhe dev duaar, dilmaanhe saanhiyaa aape vase ane dilmaanhe aape didaar.
Swami Sri Yukteshwar says:
"Seven Spheres or Swargas. This universe thus described, commencing from the Eternal Substance, God, down to the gross material creation, has been distinguished into seven different spheres, Swargas or Lokas.....
Sapta Patalas, seven churches. As God created man in His own image, so is the body of man like unto the image of his universe. The material body of man has also seven vital places within it called the Patalas. Man, turning towards his Self and advancing in the right way, perceives the Spiritual Light in these places, which are described in the Bible as so many churches; the lights like stars perceived therein are as so many angels."
Your statement is confusing. You wrote," Uttar Khand is the northern point of the body". Northern part of body related to what or facing which side? Say I am standing, do my Bhamar Gufa has to face towards North direction?kmaherali wrote:I said: Uttar Khand meaning the northern continent can be interpreted as Bhamar Gufa - the northern point of the body.swamidada wrote: Is man's Bhamar Gufa on front or on back of forehead? Is Bhamar Gufa visible?
Say I am pointing my face towards south in ibadat and not facing north means my Bhamar Gufa will be called south khand. You know well north and south sides of planet earth are related terms.
It can also be interpreted as an part of the body where the experience happens. It depends upon the background and practice. For some individuals it happens in the heart as : Dil manhe del pujie, dilmanhe dev duaar, dilmaanhe saanhiyaa aape vase ane dilmaanhe aape didaar.
The other terminology you used to explain Uttar Khand is DIL, and one reference came from Admin quoting Hazar Imam,"...... don't forget Uttar Khand is also Europe". See four terms are used. Uttar Khand, Bhamar Gufa, Dil, and Europe!! In Hazar Imam's words, Is Europe Uttar Khand?
There can be many interpretations of the term depending on your background and more important your spiritual development and experience.swamidada wrote: Your statement is confusing. You wrote," Uttar Khand is the northern point of the body". Northern part of body related to what or facing which side? Say I am standing, do my Bhamar Gufa has to face towards North direction?
The other terminology you used to explain Uttar Khand is DIL, and one reference came from Admin quoting Hazar Imam,"...... don't forget Uttar Khand is also Europe". See four terms are used. Uttar Khand, Bhamar Gufa, Dil, and Europe!! In Hazar Imam's words, Is Europe Uttar Khand?
Dear Sir, but Hazar Imam said," Do not forget that Europe is also Uttar Khand". In my background are mountains.kmaherali wrote:There can be many interpretations of the term depending on your background and more important your spiritual development and experience.swamidada wrote: Your statement is confusing. You wrote," Uttar Khand is the northern point of the body". Northern part of body related to what or facing which side? Say I am standing, do my Bhamar Gufa has to face towards North direction?
The other terminology you used to explain Uttar Khand is DIL, and one reference came from Admin quoting Hazar Imam,"...... don't forget Uttar Khand is also Europe". See four terms are used. Uttar Khand, Bhamar Gufa, Dil, and Europe!! In Hazar Imam's words, Is Europe Uttar Khand?
Good interpretation. My findings;kmaherali wrote:My interpretation of Imams message is that Europe represents Northern Hemisphere and it's limits.swamidada wrote: Dear Sir, but Hazar Imam said," Do not forget that Europe is also Uttar Khand". In my background are mountains.
The Northern Hemisphere contains North America, the northern part of South America, Europe, the northern two-thirds of Africa, and most of Asia.
Look at map of our Imams movement (migration); from Mecca- Medina to Syria (Middle East) to Egypt (Africa) to Iran-Central Asia to subcontinent (Asia) to Europe.
Jabir al-Jufi in the presence of Imam al-Baqir: “I saw …a dazzling light that my sight could scarcely bear…”
Posted by Nimira Dewji
Mawlana Muhammad b. Ali b. al-Husayn b. Ali b. Abi Talib, better known by his title al-baqir, was born around 677 in Medina. He succeeded his father to the Imamat in 713, reigning for about twenty years. Imam received the title al-baqir al-ilm, ‘one who splits open knowledge,’ shortened to al-baqir due to his vast knowledge.
Imam al-Baqir “lived during a time of great developments in Islamic thought, when discussions on religious doctrine was at the centre of the intellectual life of the Muslim community. By the end of his lifetime, al–Baqir’s contribution had given the Shi‘a not only scholarly context for the articulation of their view of Imamat, but also laid the foundation of a distinctive identity for Imami Shi’ism.
From the prominence of his traditions in Shi‘i scholarly literature and the profoundly inspiring contributions they represent, we perceive a truly remarkable personality, one that deserves recognition as an outstanding figure in the history of the Shi‘a and a major force in the development of early Islamic thought in general.”
(Extracts from Synopsis, Early Shi’i Thought, by Arzina R. Lalani, IIS)
Abu Abd Allah Jabir al-Jufi (d. 745) was a scholar during the time of Imam al-Baqir. “Jabir relates that he once visited Imam al-Baqir’s house and found him reciting words of praise with prayer beads in his hand. Jabir said within himself, in awe of the Imam’s presence, ‘Truly you are great…The imam raised his head and said to me, ‘Truly, he is great whom He has made great; and he is knowledgeable whom He has made knowledgeable, through what has come from Him to me. I am the servant of God, glorified and exalted be He.
I said within myself, ‘This is [but] the veil; so what will the Veiled be like! Then he raised his head towards me, and I saw a tremendous radiance, and a dazzling light that my sight could scarcely bear, and my intellect could scarcely comprehend. Then the imam said [speaking to God], ‘This is indeed one of Your Friends.’ He then asked me, ‘Shall I give [you] more?’ I said ‘This is enough for me.’
Arzina R. Lalani, “Epilogue,” Early Shi’i Thought, The Teachings of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, I.B. Tauris in association with The Institute of Ismaili Studies, London, 2000 p 28
https://nimirasblog.wordpress.com/2021/ ... cely-bear/
Posted by Nimira Dewji
Mawlana Muhammad b. Ali b. al-Husayn b. Ali b. Abi Talib, better known by his title al-baqir, was born around 677 in Medina. He succeeded his father to the Imamat in 713, reigning for about twenty years. Imam received the title al-baqir al-ilm, ‘one who splits open knowledge,’ shortened to al-baqir due to his vast knowledge.
Imam al-Baqir “lived during a time of great developments in Islamic thought, when discussions on religious doctrine was at the centre of the intellectual life of the Muslim community. By the end of his lifetime, al–Baqir’s contribution had given the Shi‘a not only scholarly context for the articulation of their view of Imamat, but also laid the foundation of a distinctive identity for Imami Shi’ism.
From the prominence of his traditions in Shi‘i scholarly literature and the profoundly inspiring contributions they represent, we perceive a truly remarkable personality, one that deserves recognition as an outstanding figure in the history of the Shi‘a and a major force in the development of early Islamic thought in general.”
(Extracts from Synopsis, Early Shi’i Thought, by Arzina R. Lalani, IIS)
Abu Abd Allah Jabir al-Jufi (d. 745) was a scholar during the time of Imam al-Baqir. “Jabir relates that he once visited Imam al-Baqir’s house and found him reciting words of praise with prayer beads in his hand. Jabir said within himself, in awe of the Imam’s presence, ‘Truly you are great…The imam raised his head and said to me, ‘Truly, he is great whom He has made great; and he is knowledgeable whom He has made knowledgeable, through what has come from Him to me. I am the servant of God, glorified and exalted be He.
I said within myself, ‘This is [but] the veil; so what will the Veiled be like! Then he raised his head towards me, and I saw a tremendous radiance, and a dazzling light that my sight could scarcely bear, and my intellect could scarcely comprehend. Then the imam said [speaking to God], ‘This is indeed one of Your Friends.’ He then asked me, ‘Shall I give [you] more?’ I said ‘This is enough for me.’
Arzina R. Lalani, “Epilogue,” Early Shi’i Thought, The Teachings of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, I.B. Tauris in association with The Institute of Ismaili Studies, London, 2000 p 28
https://nimirasblog.wordpress.com/2021/ ... cely-bear/
Imam Baqir said," I am the servant of God, glorified and exalted be He".kmaherali wrote:Jabir al-Jufi in the presence of Imam al-Baqir: “I saw …a dazzling light that my sight could scarcely bear…”
Posted by Nimira Dewji
..... ‘Truly, he is great whom He has made great; and he is knowledgeable whom He has made knowledgeable, through what has come from Him to me. I am the servant of God, glorified and exalted be He.
This proves Imam is not God.
kmaherali wrote:ALLAHU NURU SAMAAWAATI WAL ARDH - Allah IS the Light of the heavens and the earth.swamidada wrote: From Allah. Imam is Noor of Allah.
Hence no difference between Allah and the Light!
The debate started with a saying of Imam Baqir posted by kmaherali on Aug 3,2021.
Imam Baqir said," I am the servant of God, glorified and exalted be He".
My take was when Imam said he is servant of God therefore he is not God.
A servant can't claim to be Master, his job is to serve the Master.
You quoted first sentence of Ayat e Noor i.e. ALLAHU NURU SAMAAWAATI WAL ARDH, and stopped there. But the second sentence is MASALU NOORIHI KAMISHKATIN FEEHA MISBAH means the PARABLE of His light is as if there were a Niche..., And the last sentence of Ayat e Noor is WA YADHRIBULLAH UL AMSAALA LINNAAS, means Allah set forth parables for men...
Allah has explained His Noor in PARABLES to humans AND HAS NOT DECLARED THE REALITY.
What actually Noor is we don't know (the real definition)? Even in Ginans the word Noor is used in different ways:
NOOR VERA NOOR PIYO...
NOOR NA PIYALA HURAA(N) CHHANDHTI...
GINAN BOLO NOOREY BHARIYA...
CHAITAN NOOR MANHE(N) NOOR..
JENO NAAM MUHAMMAD NOOR KE - AAKHIR AMBIYAA RE LOL
VERA BHAI NOOR KHALIFA ISS JUG MAHEE(N) AAYA...
You have been informed of the two aspects of the Imam in several forums at several occasion in several posts. This can not go on forever. So you will understand that you have to go read the answer given in all those posts to the same arguments you are repeating again and again.swamidada wrote: Imam Baqir said," I am the servant of God, glorified and exalted be He".
My take was when Imam said he is servant of God therefore he is not God.
A servant can't claim to be Master, his job is to serve the Master..
By repeating a false interpretation 100 times, it will not become a true interpretation.The only thing you will achieve successfully is to waste everyone's time again and again.
For the sake of sanity, I will remove your account definitively at your next repeating. Countless people have complained that they do not post here because of the low quality of your postings and the illogical arguments repeated all over the place, which do not leave any space for a proper intellectual discussion..
Admin
Kmaherali please shed light on the lines of Ginans I quoted in reference to Noor.swamidada wrote:kmaherali wrote:ALLAHU NURU SAMAAWAATI WAL ARDH - Allah IS the Light of the heavens and the earth.swamidada wrote: From Allah. Imam is Noor of Allah.
Hence no difference between Allah and the Light!
You quoted first sentence of Ayat e Noor i.e. ALLAHU NURU SAMAAWAATI WAL ARDH, and stopped there. But the second sentence is MASALU NOORIHI KAMISHKATIN FEEHA MISBAH means the PARABLE of His light is as if there were a Niche..., And the last sentence of Ayat e Noor is WA YADHRIBULLAH UL AMSAALA LINNAAS, means Allah set forth parables for men...
Allah has explained His Noor in PARABLES to humans AND HAS NOT DECLARED THE REALITY.
What actually Noor is we don't know (the real definition)? Even in Ginans the word Noor is used in different ways:
NOOR VERA NOOR PIYO...
NOOR NA PIYALA HURAA(N) CHHANDHTI...
GINAN BOLO NOOREY BHARIYA...
CHAITAN NOOR MANHE(N) NOOR..
JENO NAAM MUHAMMAD NOOR KE - AAKHIR AMBIYAA RE LOL
VERA BHAI NOOR KHALIFA ISS JUG MAHEE(N) AAYA...
Kmaherali please shed light on the lines of Ginans I quoted in reference to Noor.[/quote]swamidada wrote: NOOR VERA NOOR PIYO...
NOOR NA PIYALA HURAA(N) CHHANDHTI...
GINAN BOLO NOOREY BHARIYA...
CHAITAN NOOR MANHE(N) NOOR..
JENO NAAM MUHAMMAD NOOR KE - AAKHIR AMBIYAA RE LOL
VERA BHAI NOOR KHALIFA ISS JUG MAHEE(N) AAYA...
NOOR VERA NOOR PIYO.
The literal meaning of the phrase above is: "Drink Light at the time of Light".
According to Islam, Allah being the light of heavens and the earth, the entire creation is full of Light and "wherever you turn, there is the face of God" (Quran 2:115). MSMS tells us in his Memoirs: We live move and have our being in God.
Hence every moment should be NOOR VERA and at every moment which should be drinking Light in the form of Sat Chit Anand (Truth, Conscoiusness and Bliss).
However most of us are not perfect and don't experience Light or have the awareness of it all the time. Hence the Pir has set up time NOOR VERA which is at KHAT GHADDI PACCHALI RAHENI as alluded in the same Ginan. The six ghadis at the end of the night are designated as the time we can have the best chance of experiencing and being aware of the NOOR and hence "drink the Light" in the form of remembrance, reflection and blisss.
NOOR NA PIYALA HURAA(N) CHHANDHTI...
The literal meaning of the phrase is: "the huris have brought the vessels of Light to sprinkle (upon murids)".
The NOOR here refers to the heightened awareness of the Light and the bliss accompanying it, that is obtained through the help of huris (angels).
GINAN BOLO NOOREY BHARIYA...
The literal meaning of the phrase is: "Recite Ginans for they are full of NOOR - Light". Here the NOOR means knowledge and wisdom which lead to the experience of NOOR (Spiritual Enlightenment) in a murid. Hence to ascend towards the Light one needs nourishment of the NOOR contained in the Ginans.
CHAITAN NOOR MANHE(N) NOOR..
The literal meaning of the phrase is: "The essential vitality - the soul is Light upon Light". Here the CHAITAN NOOR or soul is essentially Light which merges into the Light of Allah - hence light upon light.
JENO NAAM MUHAMMAD NOOR KE - AAKHIR AMBIYAA RE LOL
The literal meaning of the phrase is: "Whose name is Muhammad the Light who is the last among the Prophets". Here NOOR refers to Muhammad as its bearer through whose guidance and wisdom one attains the Light of Allah.
VERA BHAI NOOR KHALIFA ISS JUG MAHEE(N) AAYA..
The literal meaning of the phrase is: "Brothers, the Enlightened Leader has arrived in this world". Here the NOOR refers to the Enlightened Leader who is the Imam of the time.
In conclusion, the entire creation is NOOR. However different facets of it such as remembrance of the name, knowledge, wisdom, bliss, Imamat are provided to facilitate the relationship of individual souls with the NOOR of Allah.
Good explanation of Ginanic verses, thanks. Your explanation shows Noor has different literal, intellectual and spiritual aspects.
Noor e Muhammadi, Noor e Ali, Noor e Punjtan Pak, Noor e Imam, Noor e Quran, Noor e Ginan, Noorani water, Noorani time, and Noorani Khalifa sent by Allah.
VERA BHAI NOOR KHALIFA ISS JUG MAHEE(N) AAYA..
So Imam is Noorani Khalifa according to Ginanic verse, means Imam is intercessor, do you believe?
Let's go back to Quranic verse of Ayat e Noor you quote; ALLAHU NOORUS SAMAAWATI WAL ARDH. In the Ayat e Noor no where word Imam is used. In my understanding Noor is the binding force of UNIVERSE. All particles of universe are glued with each other because of Noor. On the Final day God will turn off the switch of Noor and whole universe will collapse.
Noor e Muhammadi, Noor e Ali, Noor e Punjtan Pak, Noor e Imam, Noor e Quran, Noor e Ginan, Noorani water, Noorani time, and Noorani Khalifa sent by Allah.
VERA BHAI NOOR KHALIFA ISS JUG MAHEE(N) AAYA..
So Imam is Noorani Khalifa according to Ginanic verse, means Imam is intercessor, do you believe?
Let's go back to Quranic verse of Ayat e Noor you quote; ALLAHU NOORUS SAMAAWATI WAL ARDH. In the Ayat e Noor no where word Imam is used. In my understanding Noor is the binding force of UNIVERSE. All particles of universe are glued with each other because of Noor. On the Final day God will turn off the switch of Noor and whole universe will collapse.
The meaning of Khalifa is broad. It can mean leader, ruler, successor. Does not imply that he is the intercessor only. Although Imamat is not mentioned in the Ayat, it is alluded to in the mention of the symbols - lamp, glass , oil, and light upon light. For further explanation there has been discussion at:swamidada wrote: So Imam is Noorani Khalifa according to Ginanic verse, means Imam is intercessor, do you believe?
Let's go back to Quranic verse of Ayat e Noor you quote; ALLAHU NOORUS SAMAAWATI WAL ARDH. In the Ayat e Noor no where word Imam is used. In my understanding Noor is the binding force of UNIVERSE. All particles of universe are glued with each other because of Noor. On the Final day God will turn off the switch of Noor and whole universe will collapse.
Sura An-Nur
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... vens+earth
There is a verse of the Ginan which alludes to the Imam:
ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3
Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22889
The meaning of Khalifa is broad. It can mean leader, ruler, successor. Does not imply that he is the intercessor only. Although Imamat is not mentioned in the Ayat, it is alluded to in the mention of the symbols - lamp, glass , oil, and light upon light.kmaherali wrote:The meaning of Khalifa is broad. It can mean leader, ruler, successor. Does not imply that he is the intercessor only. Although Imamat is not mentioned in the Ayat, it is alluded to in the mention of the symbols - lamp, glass , oil, and light upon light.swamidada wrote: So Imam is Noorani Khalifa according to Ginanic verse, means Imam is intercessor, do you believe?
Let's go back to Quranic verse of Ayat e Noor you quote; ALLAHU NOORUS SAMAAWATI WAL ARDH. In the Ayat e Noor no where word Imam is used. In my understanding Noor is the binding force of UNIVERSE. All particles of universe are glued with each other because of Noor. On the Final day God will turn off the switch of Noor and whole universe will collapse.
Can you exactly pin point what the Noor is? is it like fire, water, air, or a precious matter.
Since primordial times the Noor is mystery. Why God is not specific and clear about Noor? Why is He hiding Noor behind curtain. In Ayat e Noor He has used symbols, parables, comparisons to explain His Noor, though He knows religious and spiritual IQ of humans is not equal or not so advanced to grasp this mystery of Noor. Is He playing with humans?
On contrary Noor is Soul and Soul is Noor, both are same. It means when He says in Quran,"Allahu Noorus Samaawati wal Ardh", means His SOUL is contained in all particles and bodies of Universe.
Other interesting aspect of Noor. Ginan says 'Noor vera Noor piyo' or 'Noor na piyala chhandhiti Huraa(n) aaie' (suggestion is to drink water of Noor), AND Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said in a Farman," Till a man is alive he can't get WATER OF NOOR in his lifetime".
Is Noor some sort of water?
Your take Kmaherali.