Essenes tradition before prophet mohammed

[salmankhuwaja]

Ya Ali Madad,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I was listening to Al Waaz Abu Ali's waaz a few days back in which he mentioned about essenes group who&nbsp;believed in&nbsp;spiritual enlightment. In that waaz he also mentioned that Imam SMS said in his farman "for 19 centuries our tradition has continued ....". The point here is 19 centuries not 14 centuries. So this implies that Ismaili tariqa existed before islam (not by the name of ismailies ofcourse). Would anyone shed more light o&shy;n this information.

[kmaherali]

"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).

[ShamsB]

Refer to the original farman made in London where on the tape...Mowlana Hazar Imam states that we have 1900 years of History...
The book says 1300..but Hazar Imam stated 1900 which validates the Essenic Tradition.

Shams.

[Admin]

He also said 1900 years in Nairobi and then again in French in Leopoldville so there is no doubt that he said 1900 years however this is open to interpretation in the same way he said 14 years in Vancouver [not 1400 years]

[shivaathervedi_3]

He also said 1900 years in Nairobi and then again in French in Leopoldville so there is no doubt that he said 1900 years however this is open to interpretation in the same way he said 14 years in Vancouver [not 1400 years]

14 years can be slip of tongue. Imam can make mistakes but not sins.
If our traditions goes to 1900 years back as Imam said, then how come we are stretching it to primordial times!!

[Admin]

The concept of time in Ismailism is a subject that can not be explained in few lines. There are books written on it and granths that you should read to understand how 14 days will symbolically signify one jug in one kalap which itself is in 4 kalaps and balances with a day of God worth of 1,000 of our years where 14 years converted at this scale cover the whole of the last creation. People dedicate their whole life to studying these concepts.

When you do not understand the Imam, it is your failing, not the failing of the Imam. If you do not believe Imam is protected from mistake, why do you follow him? Isn't that the definition of hypocrisy?

To say that Imam had a slip of tongue is like saying you can not trust what he is saying and his Farmans need editing, then why pretend to be Ismailis and follower of the Aga Khan? There are many other religions that would be happy to welcome you.

[shivaathervedi_3]

The concept of time in Ismailism is a subject that can not be explained in few lines. There are books written on it and granths that you should read to understand how 14 days will symbolically signify one jug in one kalap which itself is in 4 kalaps and balances with a day of God worth of 1,000 of our years where 14 years converted at this scale cover the whole of the last creation. People dedicate their whole life to studying these concepts.

When you do not understand the Imam, it is your failing, not the failing of the Imam. If you do not believe Imam is protected from mistake, why do you follow him? Isn't that the definition of hypocrisy?

To say that Imam had a slip of tongue is like saying you can not trust what he is saying and his Farmans need editing, then why pretend to be Ismailis and follower of the Aga Khan? There are many other religions that would be happy to welcome you.

You read my posts superficially and jump to conclusion. You did not paid any attention to my words," I wrote Imam can make mistake ", which he has admitted in one of his interviews. Prophet Muhammad also said he made mistakes while giving worldly advice. There is difference in making a mistake and sin, my words were Imam do not sin but can make mistakes.
Farmans have been edited by whom, I do not want to discuss, you have been through it.
There was no need of giving me lecture, by the way I am THE ISMAILI, I don't know about you!!!

[Admin]

There was no need of giving me lecture, by the way I am THE ISMAILI, I don't know about you!!!

One does not become Ismaili by shouting it on the roofs. If Imam says night, it is night. Imam's actions are not judged by his murids.

Imam has 2 audiences, those who believe in him as divine and those who do not. The audience of the Murids is not the one he addresses in public declaration but rather in his holy gathering and in person, ometimes in his holliness, which newspapers interviewers do not have access not the non-Ismaiis who say Imam makes mistakes and who are part of the second audience. Not everyone is a beloved spiritual or a haqiqati momin as mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah used to say. But he has taught us how to identify (not to judge) Ismailis and the recipe is very clear in the Farmans.

[shivaathervedi_3]

There was no need of giving me lecture, by the way I am THE ISMAILI, I don't know about you!!!

One does not become Ismaili by shouting it on the roofs. If Imam says night, it is night. Imam's actions are not judged by his murids.

Imam has 2 audiences, those who believe in him as divine and those who do not. The audience of the Murids is not the one he addresses in public declaration but rather in his holy gathering and in person, ometimes in his holliness, which newspapers interviewers do not have access not the non-Ismaiis who say Imam makes mistakes and who are part of the second audience. Not everyone is a beloved spiritual or a haqiqati momin as mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah used to say. But he has taught us how to identify (not to judge) Ismailis and the recipe is very clear in the Farmans.

You and kmaherali both have adopted an easy formula.
This is zahir and this is batin
This Imam said as Imam and this said as Pir.
This is said by Mukhi Saheb and this is by jamait bhai
This for general audience and this is for special audience.
This is said in an interview and this is whispered in some one's ear.
This is said in day time but was meant for night.
You wrote," If Imam says night it is night ". I accept it. And when he said " I make mistakes", I accept it, according to your deducing theory.

[Admin]

An interesting anecdote on this point: https://saibalsanskaar.wordpress.com/20 ... -the-dove/

“Krishna, for me, your words are more
trustworthy than evidence of my eyes”

The two are on a stroll in the garden when they see the bird hovering in the skies. Pointing to it, Krishna says,
“See that bird Arjuna… Is it a dove?”
“Yes my Lord! It is indeed a dove”, replies Arjuna.
“But wait… I think that it is is an eagle. Isn’t it an eagle?” asks Krishna
“Yes! That is definitely an eagle”, is the answer.
“No! It does not look like an eagle”, says Krishna, “it is definitely a crow.”
“Without a doubt Krishna, it is a crow”, replies Arjuna.
At this point, Krishna laughs and chides Arjuna,
“Are you blind my friend? You do not seem to have eyes of your own! You are simply agreeing to whatever I say.”
Arjuna says, “Krishna, for me, your words are far more trustworthy than the evidence of my eyes. When you say something, you have the power to make it so – be it a crow, dove or eagle. Hence, if you said it is a crow, it must be so!”
Learning
This story is oft quoted to exemplify how faith must be. This is the kind of faith one must develop on the guru and God. This is the faith on Krishna that Arjuna could win the war between good and evil.

[kmaherali]

You wrote," If Imam says night it is night ". I accept it. And when he said " I make mistakes", I accept it, according to your deducing theory.

I have always maintained, that the Imam speaks according to the nature and capacity of the audience. Do you think that it would have been appropriate for him to declare to the world at large that he did not make mistakes?

[shivaathervedi_3]

You wrote," If Imam says night it is night ". I accept it. And when he said " I make mistakes", I accept it, according to your deducing theory.

I have always maintained, that the Imam speaks according to the nature and capacity of the audience. Do you think that it would have been appropriate for him to declare to the world at large that he did not make mistakes?

Imam do not lie. He always says truth on any forum. Why should he hide any thing? Is he scared or ashamed of public to defer his statement?

Please read my post dated Aug 31, 2018. I have mentioned that 'IMAM DO NOT SIN' but can make mistakes. It is said,"To err is human". Imam being human in this world can make mistakes which he admitted in his interview. One should be clear in his/her mind that there is difference in a sin and mistake. Mistake can be for example wrong decisions in business or in financial matters and so on. Prophet Muhammad said that" He made mistakes in giving advice on worldly matters".

[shivaathervedi_3]

An interesting anecdote on this point: https://saibalsanskaar.wordpress.com/20 ... -the-dove/

“Krishna, for me, your words are more
trustworthy than evidence of my eyes”

The two are on a stroll in the garden when they see the bird hovering in the skies. Pointing to it, Krishna says,
“See that bird Arjuna… Is it a dove?”
“Yes my Lord! It is indeed a dove”, replies Arjuna.
“But wait… I think that it is is an eagle. Isn’t it an eagle?” asks Krishna
“Yes! That is definitely an eagle”, is the answer.
“No! It does not look like an eagle”, says Krishna, “it is definitely a crow.”
“Without a doubt Krishna, it is a crow”, replies Arjuna.
At this point, Krishna laughs and chides Arjuna,
“Are you blind my friend? You do not seem to have eyes of your own! You are simply agreeing to whatever I say.”
Arjuna says, “Krishna, for me, your words are far more trustworthy than the evidence of my eyes. When you say something, you have the power to make it so – be it a crow, dove or eagle. Hence, if you said it is a crow, it must be so!”
Learning
This story is oft quoted to exemplify how faith must be. This is the kind of faith one must develop on the guru and God. This is the faith on Krishna that Arjuna could win the war between good and evil.

Anecdote vs Anecdote:

In movie Muna Bhai MBBS, Circuit kept saying " Bhai bola tou theek bola ", because he had faith in Muna Bhai.

[kmaherali]

Imam do not lie. He always says truth on any forum. Why should he hide any thing? Is he scared or ashamed of public to defer his statement?

Please read my post dated Aug 31, 2018. I have mentioned that 'IMAM DO NOT SIN' but can make mistakes. It is said,"To err is human". Imam being human in this world can make mistakes which he admitted in his interview. One should be clear in his/her mind that there is difference in a sin and mistake. Mistake can be for example wrong decisions in business or in financial matters and so on. Prophet Muhammad said that" He made mistakes in giving advice on worldly matters".

Of course the Imams do not lie. They speak truth according to the capacity of the audience. Have you ever heard him say to his murids that he makes mistakes?

If you say that the Imam makes mistakes, then you are saying that the Farmans could contain mistakes and hence shake the very foundations of the faith. Is that the role of the Dai which you claim to be?

[shivaathervedi_3]

Imam do not lie. He always says truth on any forum. Why should he hide any thing? Is he scared or ashamed of public to defer his statement?

Please read my post dated Aug 31, 2018. I have mentioned that 'IMAM DO NOT SIN' but can make mistakes. It is said,"To err is human". Imam being human in this world can make mistakes which he admitted in his interview. One should be clear in his/her mind that there is difference in a sin and mistake. Mistake can be for example wrong decisions in business or in financial matters and so on. Prophet Muhammad said that" He made mistakes in giving advice on worldly matters".

Of course the Imams do not lie. They speak truth according to the capacity of the audience. Have you ever heard him say to his murids that he makes mistakes?

If you say that the Imam makes mistakes, then you are saying that the Farmans could contain mistakes and hence shake the very foundations of the faith. Is that the role of the Dai which you claim to be?

Farmans are truthful, there is no question of mistakes. My explanation is about worldly affairs.
You wrote,"Have you ever heard him say to his murids that he makes mistakes". But, if some murid has asked him. You are missing my point. Imam's mistakes are related to worldly affairs and NOT WITH RELIGIOUS OR SPIRITUAL AFFAIRS. I gave examples; he can make mistake in choosing race horse, or can make a bad deal in business, or can make mistake in financial affairs. Why in Aiglemont he has many experts in different fields to advice him on different worldly affairs to avoid mistakes?

[Admin]

This subject has already been discussed and concluded. Come back to the title of this thread.

This is not the place where to discuss what the detractors of Ismailism are trying to do by weakening the position of our Imam.

[shivaathervedi_3]

Please avoid Corbin or Ivanow, I want your interpretation.

[DELETED]

Note from admin

If you continue posting subject unrelated to the thread your account will be definitely and permanently deleted. You have been asked at least 100 times to read the rules of posting.

You are taking precious time which could be used for the benefit of the web-site and you are therefore depriving others of information we could make available, were we not for constantly remind you the rules of postings..

[kmaherali]

You are missing my point. Imam's mistakes are related to worldly affairs and NOT WITH RELIGIOUS OR SPIRITUAL AFFAIRS. I gave examples; he can make mistake in choosing race horse, or can make a bad deal in business, or can make mistake in financial affairs. Why in Aiglemont he has many experts in different fields to advice him on different worldly affairs to avoid mistakes?

But the Imam gives us guidance on spiritual and worldly matters. What we should not trust his guidance on worldly matters because they could be mistaken?

The Imam expresses himself differently in different contexts depending upon the audience. That does not mean that he makes mistakes in reality. If that were the case the world would turn upside down.

[kmaherali]

14 years can be slip of tongue. Imam can make mistakes but not sins.
If our traditions goes to 1900 years back as Imam said, then how come we are stretching it to primordial times!!

Perhaps the mention of 1900 years was a symbolic way of saying that our tradition extends beyond the normal 1400 years since Prophet Muhammad.

[shivaathervedi_3]

14 years can be slip of tongue. Imam can make mistakes but not sins.
If our traditions goes to 1900 years back as Imam said, then how come we are stretching it to primordial times!!

Perhaps the mention of 1900 years was a symbolic way of saying that our tradition extends beyond the normal 1400 years since Prophet Muhammad.

What you have to say about 14 years of our tradition in Vancouver as mentioned by Admin. Let me quote his quote:

Admin wrote:
"He also said 1900 years in Nairobi and then again in French in Leopoldville so there is no doubt that he said 1900 years however this is open to interpretation in the same way he said 14 years in Vancouver [not 1400 years]".

[shivaathervedi_3]

You are missing my point. Imam's mistakes are related to worldly affairs and NOT WITH RELIGIOUS OR SPIRITUAL AFFAIRS. I gave examples; he can make mistake in choosing race horse, or can make a bad deal in business, or can make mistake in financial affairs. Why in Aiglemont he has many experts in different fields to advice him on different worldly affairs to avoid mistakes?

But the Imam gives us guidance on spiritual and worldly matters. What we should not trust his guidance on worldly matters because they could be mistaken?

The Imam expresses himself differently in different contexts depending upon the audience. That does not mean that he makes mistakes in reality. If that were the case the world would turn upside down.

Still you are confusing your self. I wrote," He can make mistakes in worldly affairs and worldly dealings and not in spiritual affairs." I gave examples like mistakes in business dealings, financial matters, stock market, or choosing a race horse or horse racing and so on. Believe me world will not turn upside down.

[kmaherali]

What you have to say about 14 years of our tradition in Vancouver as mentioned by Admin. Let me quote his quote:

Admin wrote:
"He also said 1900 years in Nairobi and then again in French in Leopoldville so there is no doubt that he said 1900 years however this is open to interpretation in the same way he said 14 years in Vancouver [not 1400 years]".

I would assume that it would be symbolic of 1400 years or 14 centuries. The point is that we do not have to assume the worst i.e., a mistake in the case of the Imam.

[kmaherali]

Still you are confusing your self. I wrote," He can make mistakes in worldly affairs and worldly dealings and not in spiritual affairs." I gave examples like mistakes in business dealings, financial matters, stock market, or choosing a race horse or horse racing and so on. Believe me world will not turn upside down.

There is no confusion. He gives us guidance on worldly and spiritual matters. He gives guidance on worldly matters such as education, business and financial matters, world economic conditions etc. Are you saying that guidance on all these matters can be mistaken?

[shivaathervedi_3]

What you have to say about 14 years of our tradition in Vancouver as mentioned by Admin. Let me quote his quote:

Admin wrote:
"He also said 1900 years in Nairobi and then again in French in Leopoldville so there is no doubt that he said 1900 years however this is open to interpretation in the same way he said 14 years in Vancouver [not 1400 years]".

I would assume that it would be symbolic of 1400 years or 14 centuries. The point is that we do not have to assume the worst i.e., a mistake in the case of the Imam.

In history numbers play important role. If every thing is symbolic then Iman can be dubbed as symbolic. Numbers speak for themselves 1900, 1400, and 14. Why Imam used these numbers, any interpretation apart from symbolic?

[shivaathervedi_3]

Still you are confusing your self. I wrote," He can make mistakes in worldly affairs and worldly dealings and not in spiritual affairs." I gave examples like mistakes in business dealings, financial matters, stock market, or choosing a race horse or horse racing and so on. Believe me world will not turn upside down.

There is no confusion. He gives us guidance on worldly and spiritual matters. He gives guidance on worldly matters such as education, business and financial matters, world economic conditions etc. Are you saying that guidance on all these matters can be mistaken?

You have confused yourself. I am not criticizing guidance of Imam, I dare not. You are not paying attention to examples I gave. Like investment in stock markets, or choosing a race horse or horse race and so on. What about loses in IPS and tourism!

[Admin]

Applying human logic to Imam's Aql'i Qul is just like a baby unable to understand why the father changes his diaper when the mum is still alive. And in as much, it is useless to try to teach to that baby through academic and intellectual lectures something he has a long way to go before understanding.

The Imam take each actions in terms of its far reaching impact in time and dimensions decades if not centuries, of the impact of investing one cent at a or b place on the lives of countless people, not in term of money to be made by a greedy human being but in terms of teaching, helping lives, something that the Imamate wants to achieve within his own creation.

If the Imam has put 100 million in building a hotel which for years is not giving monetary profit, he has put into the economy of that area 100 millions which have circulated several times with a multiplication effect, attracted investors to the regions for 10 times more profit to the area, created expertise in tourism field and left replicable knowledge for generations to come.

I laugh when people say why is Imam throwing money by building a park or a museum or restoring a monument, all project which a baby would know, can not be profitable.... These are not the kind of intellectually weak people we want to see on this Forum. After all this is an Ismaili Forum.

[shivaathervedi_3]

What baby diapers have to do with interpretation of 1900 years tradition or 14 years. What and how the selected leadership harmed the institutions of IPS and Tourism I do not want to discuss other wise you will delete my posts on this subject. PARDEY ME RAHNEY DOU.

[kmaherali]

You have confused yourself. I am not criticizing guidance of Imam, I dare not. You are not paying attention to examples I gave. Like investment in stock markets, or choosing a race horse or horse race and so on. What about loses in IPS and tourism!

Now you are saying that he does not make mistakes about worldly matters in his guidance but he makes mistakes about other worldly matters. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Or isn't it the case that the Imam expresses himself differently in different situations and hence what appears as a mistake in other worldly matters is not a mistake in reality?

[shivaathervedi_3]

You have confused yourself. I am not criticizing guidance of Imam, I dare not. You are not paying attention to examples I gave. Like investment in stock markets, or choosing a race horse or horse race and so on. What about loses in IPS and tourism!

Now you are saying that he does not make mistakes about worldly matters in his guidance but he makes mistakes about other worldly matters. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Or isn't it the case that the Imam expresses himself differently in different situations and hence what appears as a mistake in other worldly matters is not a mistake in reality?

OMG, still you are confused. I am not targeting guidance to murids. You are deliberately not paying attention to my examples. I wrote; choosing wrong stocks or shares in stock markets, or choosing wrong horse for racing, or a bad business deals where money doomed, or other personal decitions, that is what Imam meant in interview.

Regarding traditions of 1900,1400,14 years, let me put question in this way.
In 12th grade ITREB test, students are asked the following question.
How many years our traditions go back;
1. 1900 years
2. 1400 years
3. 14 years
Please choose only one. No marks for multi choice.

[Admin]

All of those are true because the Imam said so. If you can not understand this, your place is not here.

If your suggestion is that a 12 graders know better than our Imam, please have some decency, dignity and self respect and leave before being kicked out of this Forum.