Das Avatar

AJD · Post by **AJD** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:28 am

FreeLancer wrote:Why I do not believe in Dus Avtars? The reason is the 3rd Avtar 'Varaha Avtar'. Varaha (Boar) means a male wild pig. In Islam and Judaism a pig is a unholy animal whose meat is haraam, not kosher. How come Khojas Ismailis of subcontinent relate Hazar Imam with an unholy animal?
I hate it, is there any justification for this?

Question to Admin, do you believe in Varaha (Boar) Avtar?

Firstly, it must be remembered that the Avatar system has nothing to do with the principles of classical Islam. By this, I mean that the teachings of Avatars are not found in any of the classical Islam languages as they are found in vernaculars. For example, Pig has been declared as "Haram" (forbidden) in the primary and secondary sources of Islamic Law. However, it is "Halal" in some other religions. So, the point is that we cannot bring a text or a teaching that has its roots in vernaculars over classical stuff.

Secondly, each and every Avatar has its own significance. For example, the Machh avatar (the first one) was in the form of fish because the devil (Sankhasur) took the Vedas (Holy Scriptures) with him into the depth of the oceans. So, you see just to defeat the devil, the divine light took the manifestation of a fish. In simple words, we always need to find a solution according to the problem. This is the basic human nature and this is why we all believe that Imam of the time is Mushikil-Kusha because he knows what solutions are needed and in what context. So, taking the form of a pig was the need of the time. We must look at this in this way rather than bringing classical Islamic thoughts and trying to impose them and loosing both the object and the subject.

Thirdly, we are taking Varaha as the pig in literal terms. However, there are a number of iconographical forms which I have seen in illustrated Sanskrit and Gujarati manuscripts. Although I also agree that the broader meaning of this Avatar when pictured is a pig, however, it is not always limited to that.

Last, but by no means the least, the Das Avtar is a part of the teachings of our Holy Pirs and Imams. Although Imam SMS said that leave the rest of the 9 Avatars but that doesn't mean that we must throw them out. Instead, there are so many incidents where Imam SMS has described the significance of Avatars. What is not understood is that our Ismaili faith is from the beginning and we all murids believe that our culture and faith is rich in traditions and this makes us unique amongst any other faith.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:43 pm

Definitely in new Du'a there is no mention of Dus Avtars, was it included in old Du'a?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:53 pm

FreeLancer wrote: Dus Avtar is not a part of Ismaili Tenets, neither it was nor is. Dus Avtar was a strong conversion tool used by Pirs successfully 600/700 years back. In Urdu it is said; RAAT GAI BAAT GAI.

How do you understand the Farman below?

"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:59 pm

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote: Dus Avtar is not a part of Ismaili Tenets, neither it was nor is. Dus Avtar was a strong conversion tool used by Pirs successfully 600/700 years back. In Urdu it is said; RAAT GAI BAAT GAI.
How do you understand the Farman below?

"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).

It is also Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in Kalam e Imam e Mubin, "Forget previous 9 Avtars".
August 1899. Jungbar.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:18 pm

FreeLancer wrote: It is also Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in Kalam e Imam e Mubin, "Forget previous 9 Avtars".
August 1899. Jungbar.

Would you be able to quote the paragraph in which he said that?

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:25 pm

AJD wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:Why I do not believe in Dus Avtars? The reason is the 3rd Avtar 'Varaha Avtar'. Varaha (Boar) means a male wild pig. In Islam and Judaism a pig is a unholy animal whose meat is haraam, not kosher. How come Khojas Ismailis of subcontinent relate Hazar Imam with an unholy animal?
I hate it, is there any justification for this?

Question to Admin, do you believe in Varaha (Boar) Avtar?
Firstly, it must be remembered that the Avatar system has nothing to do with the principles of classical Islam. By this, I mean that the teachings of Avatars are not found in any of the classical Islam languages as they are found in vernaculars. For example, Pig has been declared as "Haram" (forbidden) in the primary and secondary sources of Islamic Law. However, it is "Halal" in some other religions. So, the point is that we cannot bring a text or a teaching that has its roots in vernaculars over classical stuff.

Secondly, each and every Avatar has its own significance. For example, the Machh avatar (the first one) was in the form of fish because the devil (Sankhasur) took the Vedas (Holy Scriptures) with him into the depth of the oceans. So, you see just to defeat the devil, the divine light took the manifestation of a fish. In simple words, we always need to find a solution according to the problem. This is the basic human nature and this is why we all believe that Imam of the time is Mushikil-Kusha because he knows what solutions are needed and in what context. So, taking the form of a pig was the need of the time. We must look at this in this way rather than bringing classical Islamic thoughts and trying to impose them and loosing both the object and the subject.

Thirdly, we are taking Varaha as the pig in literal terms. However, there are a number of iconographical forms which I have seen in illustrated Sanskrit and Gujarati manuscripts. Although I also agree that the broader meaning of this Avatar when pictured is a pig, however, it is not always limited to that.

Last, but by no means the least, the Das Avtar is a part of the teachings of our Holy Pirs and Imams. Although Imam SMS said that leave the rest of the 9 Avatars but that doesn't mean that we must throw them out. Instead, there are so many incidents where Imam SMS has described the significance of Avatars. What is not understood is that our Ismaili faith is from the beginning and we all murids believe that our culture and faith is rich in traditions and this makes us unique amongst any other faith.

There is plenty of Hindu Mythology material, images and photos of different characters available on internet.
Devil is very bad, very bad, each time he stole some thing and disappeared.
Some time he stole holy scriptures and hid in an ocean and the Avtar had to fought 1000 years war doing nothing else to solve worldly problems. Other time he disappeared the Dharti Mata and jumped again into ocean. Again Avtar came and took hundreds of years to recover Dharti Mata, damn care all creature mean while drowned. Again Devil abducted a sundari and disappeared. Again Avtar had to take kashtt to find her. Devil of that time very bad, looks like he was a habitual thief, some times took the booty deep in ocean and some times climbed high on snowy mountains. These are bed time stories good for children. Almost every religion or sub sects have such stories to tell to satisfy religious urge to put followers to sleep. Can't we solve the human problems with our intellect?

Hindus of various classes do not consume Pig meat like Muslims and Jews.

As it is mentioned that Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said "Leave Dus Avtars", why are some khoja satpunthis still stick to those previous characters of Dus Avtars!! I do not mind read such stories but these are not part of our faith.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:48 pm

It does take some intellect to understand that this is the era of the Dasmo Avatar so there is no point following previous Avatars. We are in the era of Prophet Muhammad, what is the use to going back to previous prophets.

No one said these Avatars or Prophets were false, it is just that we as Ismaili follow the guidance of our time, of course we do believe in all the previous prophets and we Ismailis also believe in all the previous Avatars including Mowlana Krishna, Mowlana Ram, Mowlana Shish, Mowlana Aaroon and Mowlana Shamun al Safa.

In fact names of Imams such as Imam Mowlana Malikul Salam (Melchisedek) were part of Ismaili old prayers.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:58 pm

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote: It is also Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in Kalam e Imam e Mubin, "Forget previous 9 Avtars".
August 1899. Jungbar.
Would you be able to quote the paragraph in which he said that?

I am sure you know the paragraph but you want to trap me.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said; It is in Gujrati version, Kalam e Imam e Mubin, Bhaag pahlo;

1.HINDU NI WAATO ILM MA WANCHO CHHO TE WAJIB NATHI.
2.JIYAREY TAME(N) HINDU HATA TIYARE PIR SADARDIN NE TAME(N) RASTO DEKHARIYU(N).
3.TE WAQAT GUJRI GAYO. HAMNA MOWLA ALI NI TAREEF, IMAMO NI TAREEF ANY HAZAR IMAM NI TAREEF WANCHO.
4. NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO.
5.DASMO AVTAR MA MARA DADA (MOWLA ALI) NI TAREEF WANCHO.

August 20, 1899- Jungbar.

All sentences are important but 1,3,4 are more important. It shows clearly Imam made Farman to avoid reading Hindu literature (means do not use for our dini ilm), leave previous 9 Avtars, remember and praise Ali and Imam of time.
You wanted to trap me for last sentence and I gave you my understanding.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:47 pm

FreeLancer wrote: You wanted to trap me for last sentence and I gave you my understanding.

I can see that you have been trapped and are stuttering here.

Nuseri_1 · Post by **Nuseri_1** » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:06 pm

Ya Ali Madad:
The farman of Imam SMS is 118 years old.At that time all zahiri Bhagats & Scholars mostly digged into Ginans & pre ginan materials and based thier study on alignment of Hindu theology and Islam.
So for bhagat and scholars then ,there was an farman / Order as not deliberate into era prior Prophet and HZ ALI(dasva avatar) but from Hz Ali downward farmans.there was very low under standing of even English and Arabic among Khoja then
Every farman is in particular period is given to address the circumstances and to clear any mis information
At that time.
MHI told in 1981/83.Hinting of revival of Fatimid era now and know that thoroughly.
IIS & Bhagats took this hint be become smart historians,debators and collector of artefacts,objects and manuscripts of that ERA.
MHI on laying foundation of AKU in Karachi compared same zeal and vision to that of Al Azhar in Cairo 1000 years back.
97.5% of topics and debate in this forum is purely CLASH OF IGNORANCE.
IBAADAT & Intellect/faith is the need of the hour and not reading and cleverness at common sense level.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:02 pm

Admin wrote:
FreeLancer wrote: You wanted to trap me for last sentence and I gave you my understanding.
I can see that you have been trapped and are stuttering here.

What a philosophical reply by you.. I haven't got any reply from kmaherali on my that post for which you are stuttering.

JO KAREY HAI AAP KAREY HAI
HAME(N) ABUS BADNAAM KIYA

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:14 pm

On suggestion of Admin the discussion is moved from Darshan of Dus Avtar to thread Dus Avtar.

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 16231

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:47 am Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

Is Dus Avtar a concept, a philosophy, a tradition, or is it included in Tenets of Ismailism? If that is so special or beneficial, Why Imam did not introduced this philosophy to jamaits of Central Asia, or Middle East.
The paragraph you quoted from Memoirs suggests that like Abraham, and Jesus; Rama, Krishna, Budha were also messengers or prophets.
Haji Bibi case was all about money. In court of law you have to play smartly to prove you are right.

Reply by kmaherali:
As per Farman quoted in the second post of this thread, Das Avtars is a philosophy and is applicable to all Ismailis. Why it was not introduced to the Jamats in Central Asia or Middle East could be due to logistical and accessibility issues. However today contacts are established and these concepts can be disseminated to them as well.

MSMS was asked to provide the proof that he was the direct descendant of the Prophet. No smartness would have worked except to perform a miracle.

Nuseri_1 · Post by **Nuseri_1** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:15 pm

Ya Ali Madad:

Even the unwarranted ginans which are non spiritual ginans other that of Pir Sadarddin Annoys me.

Remaining of the post DELETED by Admin

------------------------

Post by **Admin** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:06 pm

Nuseri wrote: Even the unwarranted ginans which are non spiritual ginans other that of Pir Sadarddin Annoys me

You place in that case is not in this Forum.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:04 pm

Twice Admin deleted my reply to kmaherali. Let me try again. There is no insults or abuses in my post

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:03 am Post subject: Reply with quote

FreeLancer wrote:

Is Dus Avtar a concept, a philosophy, a tradition, or is it included in Tenets of Ismailism? If that is so special or beneficial, Why Imam did not introduced this philosophy to jamaits of Central Asia, or Middle East.
The paragraph you quoted from Memoirs suggests that like Abraham, and Jesus; Rama, Krishna, Budha were also messengers or prophets.
Haji Bibi case was all about money. In court of law you have to play smartly to prove you are right.

Reply by kmaherali:

As per Farman quoted in the second post of this thread, Das Avtars is a philosophy and is applicable to all Ismailis. Why it was not introduced to the Jamats in Central Asia or Middle East could be due to logistical and accessibility issues. However today contacts are established and these concepts can be disseminated to them as well.

MSMS was asked to provide the proof that he was the direct descendant of the Prophet. No smartness would have worked except to perform a miracle.

FreeLancer's reply to kmaherali for above post:

Kmaherali wrote, I quote;

"Why it was not introduced to the Jamats in Central Asia or Middle East could be due to logistical and accessibility issues'".

Karim, what kind of LOGISTIC or ACCESSIBILITY issues? Were those Dus Avtars heavy enough to carry there. Or that philosophy needed heavy cranes to put on ship to carry that heavy weight to Central Asian countries!!

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:32 am

FreeLancer wrote: Karim, what kind of LOGISTIC or ACCESSIBILITY issues? Were those Dus Avtars heavy enough to carry there. Or that philosophy needed heavy cranes to put on ship to carry that heavy weight to Central Asian countries!!

Logistics and accessibility involves the institutional capacity to access the Jamats in CA, China and the Middle East. There were language barriers, political factors, difficult physical terrain etc which would have made it difficult to reach the respective Jamats and hence transmit the philosophy.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:11 pm

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote: Karim, what kind of LOGISTIC or ACCESSIBILITY issues? Were those Dus Avtars heavy enough to carry there. Or that philosophy needed heavy cranes to put on ship to carry that heavy weight to Central Asian countries!!
Logistics and accessibility involves the institutional capacity to access the Jamats in CA, China and the Middle East. There were language barriers, political factors, difficult physical terrain etc which would have made it difficult to reach the respective Jamats and hence transmit the philosophy.

Your argument of logistics and accessibility don't look valid.
As recorded in Ismaili history many of our Pirs and Dais visited central Asian countries from 15th to 18th centuries. They were well versed in Farsi language. There is no trace in Ismaili history that they taught Dus Avtar philosophy to Imam's followers. If Dus Avtar was so important they should have introduced that philosophy.

Pir Shams or Pir Sadardin who introduced Dus Avtars was merely as conversion tool. Why Pir Sadardin did not sent dai's under him ( as Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah mentioned he has 12 of them under him) to Central Asian countries to introduce this philosophy there for their salvation.
Pirs and Dais were not scared of physical difficulties or difficult terrains. Their mission had always been important then their lives.
Believing in Dus Avtar is not an automatic passport to paradise for it is not part of Ismaili Tenets.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:37 pm

FreeLancer wrote: Your argument of logistics and accessibility don't look valid.
As recorded in Ismaili history many of our Pirs and Dais visited central Asian countries from 15th to 18th centuries. They were well versed in Farsi language. There is no trace in Ismaili history that they taught Dus Avtar philosophy to Imam's followers. If Dus Avtar was so important they should have introduced that philosophy.

Pir Shams or Pir Sadardin who introduced Dus Avtars was merely as conversion tool. Why Pir Sadardin did not sent dai's under him ( as Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah mentioned he has 12 of them under him) to Central Asian countries to introduce this philosophy there for their salvation.
Pirs and Dais were not scared of physical difficulties or difficult terrains. Their mission had always been important then their lives.
Believing in Dus Avtar is not an automatic passport to paradise for it is not part of Ismaili Tenets.

You can only preach ideas based upon the existing cultures and traditions. Speaking to audiences completely unfamiliar with the ideas would have been extremely difficult if not impossible.

Also the existing outside pressures of Islam based traditions would have made it difficult to preach anything outside the mainstream 'Islam'. That is the reason that our traditions in CA did not thrive in a manner that they did in the Subcontinent.

If the philosophy of Das Avtar was merely a conversion tool, MSMS would not make a Farman in the 20th century to teach it.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:32 pm

Basic knowledge is the Dasmo Avatar manifested himself in Arabia as Hazrat Ali and not India. Please read basic.

shivaathervedi_2 · Post by **shivaathervedi_2** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:41 pm

Admin wrote:Basic knowledge is the Dasmo Avatar manifested himself in Arabia as Hazrat Ali and not India. Please read basic.

Murtaza Ali himself NEVER claimed to be Vishnu, Krishna, or Rama in his tenure in Arabia.
There is no trace of Dus Avtar in Nahjul Balagha, Mustadarik and even in the famous KHUTBAH AL BAYAN.
There are 4 versions of Khutbah Al Bayan with lots of differences but there is no mention of Ali as Vishnu or Dus Avtar.

Post by **Admin** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:45 pm

As I said you lack basic knowledge. The Ikhwan in their chapter on Logics write that you can not say something is not there because you don't see it where you are looking for.

Hazar Imam speaks of post fact society where people's view of facts and how it is reported is influenced by their beliefs and which position they take. There is nothing unusual in this. Hazrat Ali did not have to say he is Vishnu, or Krishna,Hazrat Ali said I am the first and the last. In that he made the same declarations as Krishna did. And of course he said I am the first and the last, the begining and the end, the hidden and the apparent.

You have been turning round and round for years because of your set ideas, lack of research and knowledge about Ismailism, wasting everyone's time with your false and / or misleading quotes and your lack of logical assumptions and conclusions. There is no other reasons really why your posts gets deleted (beside not respecting the rules of posting) and why your account is deleted.

If you stop posting on unfamiliar subjects such as Doctrines and Ginans, I am sure you would get more respect.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:08 pm

shivaathervedi wrote:As I mentioned before in one of my post, in Central Asia no one believes in reincarnation or Dus Avtars. These are new things for them. No where Nasir Kusraw has mentioned Dus Avtars in his writings. So what you think, are Central Asian Ismailis third class Ismailis?
Dus Avtars and reincarnation i.e 184,000 cycles are not part of basic Ismaili Tenets.

There is a Farman of MSMS on the philosophy of Das Avtar which every Ismaili is expected to follow:

"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).

The above Farman has not been superseded by the present Imam. On the contrary MHI has given a Hidayat that our traditions are based on thousands of years of history. Ask yourself where are the thousands of years of history?

Post by **Admin** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:20 pm

shivaathervedi wrote: Dus Avtars and reincarnation i.e 184,000 cycles are not part of basic Ismaili Tenets.

There is no such things as 184,000 cycles, it is a basic ignorance of the indian languages. It is like saying a dozen twice means 14. Lakh chorasi means (84 x lakh) 8.4M, not 184K, Indian expressions and English expression are many time reversed in order to understand, one has to know that water's glass is said in Indian and glass of water is said in English. If you can not understand this, you can measure the road!

This has been explained multiple times and this is exactly why I am saying you are turning round and round, not reading other posts correctly and you are misled because of your lack of understanding of the indian vocabulary, In these situations, you better discuss subjects that you are familiar with and leave aside doctrinal matters.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:25 am

Dus Avtars and reincarnation i.e 184,000 cycles are not part of basic Ismaili Tenets

Dasavatar In Persian Ismaili Literature

Name of the Imams from Imam Shri Haw to Imam Hunaid ( Budh Avatar ) from the book of Dai Fidai Khurasani

01 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Rajab (A.S)
02 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Maj (A.S)
03 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Dharam (A.S)
04 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Tritu (A.S)
05 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Lulu (A.S)
06 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Aatu (A.S)
07 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Hiri Tukwa (A.S)
08 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Shiritu (A.S)
09 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Aatitu (A.S)
10 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Sher Anja (A.S)
11 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Jee Maro (A.S)
12 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Okra Yatu (A.S)
13 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Jahatu (A.S)
14 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Basheertu (A.S)
15 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Barsutu (A.S)
16 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Sam Tarao (A.S)
17 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Yatu (A.S)
18 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Ram Kahee (A.S)
19 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Sarangwanatu (A.S)
20 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Baritu (A.S)
21 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Kahatu (A.S)
22 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Sarha Yatu (A.S)
23 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Karsiyatu (A.S)
24 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Khadatu (A.S)
25 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Sahil Rakhee (A.S)
26 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Sarda Mahoo (A.S)
27 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Kiyou (A.S)
28 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Tukiyou (A.S)
29 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Kahetar Tuwas (A.S)
30 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Yasoowa Nahee (A.S)
31 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Tartiku (A.S)
32 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Anskheel (A.S)
33 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Tutumoo (A.S)
34 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Shiri Shang (A.S)
35 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Matfoo (A.S)
36 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Maskhajak (A.S)
37 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Kobadan (A.S)
38 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Shiri Bajan (A.S)
39 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Madjan (A.S)
40 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Bartai (A.S)
41 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Sherituwan (A.S)
42 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Khotuwan (A.S)
43 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Bar Saram (A.S)
44 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Byed Turuko (A.S)
45 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Makutu (A.S)
46 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Ajmapaal (A.S)
47 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Jasraat (A.S)
48 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Shiri Ram (A.S)
49 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Byedtu (A.S)
50 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Jyeotu (A.S)
51 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Dirtu (A.S)
52 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Shiri Kahetu (A.S)
53 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Bari Kahetu (A.S)
54 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Jee Meetu (A.S)
55 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Sataku (A.S)
56 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Timarjoo (A.S)
57 Hazrat Mowlana Imam Shirita Badku (A.S)

58 Hazrat Mowlana Hunaid ( A.S ) - Qayam Al Qiyamah ( 9th Manifestation)

Post by **Admin** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:58 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
58 Hazrat Mowlana Hunaid ( A.S ) - Qayam Al Qiyamah ( 9th Manifestation)

Make sense. What is the name of the book?

In many culture, foreign names are either written as heard or their equivalent in local language is sought. For example in a Ginan from India, Muhammad Mustafa may become Mamad Mawjee.

shivaathervedi_2 · Post by **shivaathervedi_2** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:36 pm

Admin wrote:
ismaili103 wrote:
58 Hazrat Mowlana Hunaid ( A.S ) - Qayam Al Qiyamah ( 9th Manifestation)
Make sense. What is the name of the book?

In many culture, foreign names are either written as heard or their equivalent in local language is sought. For example in a Ginan from India, Muhammad Mustafa may become Mamad Mawjee.

Once before he quoted same list on this forum and I asked him the name of book and where is it available? Need to analyze the book to know the back ground with proper references.

In our community they pronounce Muhammad as Maamad, then turn it in Mammu and the end is mem pesh mu.

shivaathervedi_2 · Post by **shivaathervedi_2** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:02 pm

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: Dus Avtars and reincarnation i.e 184,000 cycles are not part of basic Ismaili Tenets.
There is no such things as 184,000 cycles, it is a basic ignorance of the indian languages. It is like saying a dozen twice means 14. Lakh chorasi means (84 x lakh) 8.4M, not 184K, Indian expressions and English expression are many time reversed in order to understand, one has to know that water's glass is said in Indian and glass of water is said in English. If you can not understand this, you can measure the road!

This has been explained multiple times and this is exactly why I am saying you are turning round and round, not reading other posts correctly and you are misled because of your lack of understanding of the indian vocabulary, In these situations, you better discuss subjects that you are familiar with and leave aside doctrinal matters.

You suggested," you can not understand this, you can measure the road". Yes, I am a kind of homeless person keep measuring the road but I am helpless to measure the religious IQ of some so called intellectuals.
In Kachhi you say pani jo glass and in English it is glass of water, so what is the difference. Each language has its own expressions and grammar.
In Ginanic literature the phrase is " lakh chourasi " and our missionaries in waizes have explained 'eek lakh courasi hazar chakar', who is right? Any how you increase the number of cycles, you mentioned 8.4 millions!! Let me quote a part of Ginan by Pir Hasan Kabiruddin;
YA KHUDAVAND IKVESS LAAKH (2.I MILLIONS) MAHEI(N) AVTAR DHARIYIE
JANMO JANAM NA PHERA MANGINEY LEEDHA JI

Here Pir has mentioned 2.1 million cycles. Indeed these cycles have put youth in chakars

Post by **Admin** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:08 pm

shivaathervedi wrote: our missionaries in waizes have explained 'eek lakh courasi hazar chakar', who is right?

This missionary of yours, IF he said this, is completely wrong.

Pantris ane patchwis, sol ne ath. 35+25+16+8, always counted in lakh comes to 84 lakhs, commonly explained in waezes of waezins more familiar with the general corpus of ginans and with the indian language..

shivaathervedi_2 · Post by **shivaathervedi_2** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:14 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:As I mentioned before in one of my post, in Central Asia no one believes in reincarnation or Dus Avtars. These are new things for them. No where Nasir Kusraw has mentioned Dus Avtars in his writings. So what you think, are Central Asian Ismailis third class Ismailis?
Dus Avtars and reincarnation i.e 184,000 cycles are not part of basic Ismaili Tenets.
There is a Farman of MSMS on the philosophy of Das Avtar which every Ismaili is expected to follow:

"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).

The above Farman has not been superseded by the present Imam. On the contrary MHI has given a Hidayat that our traditions are based on thousands of years of history. Ask yourself where are the thousands of years of history?

Can you explain Dus Avtars according to Islamic Tenets?

By the way KIM of MSMS is out of circulation on Hidayat of Shah Karim Hazar Imam, you know well. These Farmans are not read in JKS since 1975. Only abridged copy (selected Farmans) printed by ITREB is recommended for quotations. The Farman you quoted in not available in that booklet.

shivaathervedi_2 · Post by **shivaathervedi_2** » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:19 pm

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: our missionaries in waizes have explained 'eek lakh courasi hazar chakar', who is right?
This missionary of yours, IF he said this, is completely wrong.

Pantris ane patchwis, sol ne ath. 35+25+16+8, always counted in lakh comes to 84 lakhs, commonly explained in waezes of waezins more familiar with the general corpus of ginans and with the indian language..

Does Pir some where in Ginans mentioned total of 84 should be counted in lacs. That is the personal views of different missionaries. What I heard I quoted.