Imam and Imamat

[faisall667]

We as Shiah Muslims are told that Hazrat Ali was the first Imam, but according to people I have talked to and also the some of the forums, they say that the Imam has been around since the creation of Earth. (I am not disputing that.) I would like to know then why are we told that Hazrat Ali was the first Imam.

[ONiazi]

As-salam.

Hazrat Imam Ali (AS) is the first Imam of this era, not the first Imam of all time. Ismailis believe in cycles of Prophets followed by Imams. The same applies to the current cycle that began with the Prophethood of Hazrat Muhammad (SAAS) and the Imamate of Hazrat Imam Ali (AS). The Nur of Hazrat Imam Ali (AS) - the Nur of the Imamate - is with every Imam from Ali to the present. This is the way I understand it - I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Mowla hafiz,
ON

[kmaherali]

YAM

If one considers history as commencing from Hazarat Adam as the first prophet, then Hazarat Ali is the first manifest Imam of Imamat as a manifest institution as opposed to 'hidden' institution in the previous cycles of prophethood. Each prophet would have an executioner of the Law (the wasi eg Simon Peter for Jesus) and the rest of the Imams would be unknown to the general public.

From a Sat Panthi viewpoint Hazarat Aly is not the first Imam. In fact he is regarded as the 78th "Patra" (the bearer of the light of Vishnu).

[al-azhar]

Prophet Mohamed was the final Prophet of Allah. Thus Imamat began and Hazrat Ali was the first Heridetary Imam. The Noor of allah has always been present in this world. This is my personal opinion.

[kmaherali]

Prophet Mohamed was the final Prophet of Allah. Thus Imamat began and Hazrat Ali was the first Heridetary Imam. The Noor of allah has always been present in this world. This is my personal opinion.

Who was the bearer of the Noor of Allah before Hazrat Aly?

[kandani]

Hazrat Abu Talib was the Imam and bearer of the Noor.

Or in other terms, Abu Talib was the 77th Patra of the Light of Vishnu.

[al-azhar]

I do not believe that there has ever been a declaration by the bearer of the Noor before Hazrat Ali. The Imams begining with Hazrat Ali have always maintained to be the bearers of this Noor of Allah.

[kmaherali]

I do not believe that there has ever been a declaration by the bearer of the Noor before Hazrat Ali. The Imams begining with Hazrat Ali have always maintained to be the bearers of this Noor of Allah.

Lord Krishna in Bhagavad Gita (9: 17-19) says:

I am the Father of this universe, and even the Source of the Father. I am the Mother of this universe, and the Creator of all. I am the Highest to be known, the Path of purification, the holy OM, the Three Vedas.

I am the Way, and the Master who watches in silence; thy friend and thy shelter and thy abode of peace. I am the beginning and the middle and end of all things: their seed of Eternity, their treasure supreme.

The heat of the sun comes from me, and I send and withhold the rain. I am life immortal and death; I am what is and I am what is not.

[Aly_shallwani]

So there are 78 imams plz can you quote the lines of ginan and name all the 78 imams.

[kmaherali]

So there are 78 imams plz can you quote the lines of ginan and name all the 78 imams.

The names of the Patras were recited in the Old Dua composed by Pir Sadardeen. Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji has mentioned them in his book "Noor en Ala Noor". I will post them here later.

[_thaillestlunatic_]

The old dua is accessible through this website
I believe it is under religious education and prayers

[kmaherali]

The following is the Vishanapuri taken from late Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji's book "Noor en Ala Noor"

VISHANAPURI

THE GENELEOGY OF SHRI VISHNU (THE ALI) (AN EXTRACT FROM PART IV OF OUR HOLY DUA BY PEER SADARDEEN)

(This geneological chart was presented as evidence in the HAJI BIBI CASE (BOMBAY, 1905)

THE BEARER OF THE NOOR-E-ALI (SHRI VISHNU)

PERIOD OF THREE "KARANS"

1. SHRI AHUNAH
2. SHRI ALAKH
3. SHRI NAAMNIL
4. SHRI ANIL
5. SHRI SOON
6. SHRI SAAN
7. SHRI NAAN
8. SHRI GINAN
9. SHRI NOOR
10. SHRI TEJ
11. SHRI JAL
12. SHRI KAMAL
13. SHRI ADBUDH
14. SHRI JAAG
15. SHRI TANTAW
16. SHRI PREMTANTAW
17. SHRI AAD FURUSH

(SHRI BHRAHMA ) ---- INCARNATION OF "THE NABI,"
(SHRI AHUNAD AAD ) THE NOOR WAS IN BATIN
(SHRI AVIGAT AAD )

PERIOD OF FOUR 'KALAPS'

1. SHRI HAW
2. SHRI KAW
3. SHRI DHARAM
4. SHRI KESHAW
5. SHRI TAWNAAD
6. SHRI UTRA
7. SHRI HARITAK
8. SHRI PURURWA
9. SHRI ANTA ATITA
10. SHRI PREMRUKH

PERIOD OF FOUR 'YUGAS' (DAS AVTAR)

'PATRA 77' : THE BEARERS OF THE "NOOR-E-ALI" SHRI VISHNU

SHRI MACCHA

1. MANAEK
2. AJAMIL
3. AGARSEN
4. OCHHAUT
5. BHARESPAT
6. ASVAMITAR
7. PAUTAR
8. PADWIR

SHRI KORABH

9. BHISRIYAT
10. DIKHIYAT
11. PRAJAPAT
12. AGARSEN
13. KADIM
14. DOEL

SHRI VARAH

15. KESHAV
16. KHATRIVASH
17. ASAAW
18. UNAS
19. KHALIFAT
20. GOTAM
21. ANTA
22. HARITAK

SHRI NARSHINHA

23. MANAEK
24. KAUCHAK
25. REPAK
26. KESHVADHAN
27. KESHVARUKH

SHRI VAEMAN

28. MAANDHATA
29. PRATHMIJAY
30. JAESRIN
31. JAVLAGAN

SHRI FARSIRAM

32. ROOG
33. NOOG
34. JUJEAAT
35. KUMBHA
36. ALIF
37. AJEPAAL
38. DASHRATH

SHRI RAM

39. PADAM
40. JASHVADHAN
41. VIRPAAR
42. VAASUDEV

SHRI KRISHNA (KA'AN)

43. PARIKHSHAT
44. JANMEJAY
45. SHESANAND
46. SATANAND
47. SWASTHAN
48. BUDHSTHAN
49. VINVACHHRAAJ

SHRI BUDHA (ADAM)

50. SHISH (SETH)
51. SHAM
52. SALAAM
53. MALKAAN
54. ESLAAM
55. HAROON
56. SHAMUNSAFFA (SIMON PETER)
57. ADNAAN
58. MAA'D
59. NIZAR
60. MUDAR
61. ELIAAS
62. MUDRAK
63. KHUZEMA
64. KINAN
65. NAZAR
66. MAALEK
67. FAHAR
68. GAALEB
69. LUVE
70. KA'AB
71. MURE
72. KILAAB
73. KUSE
74. ABDUL MUNAAF
75. ABU HASHAM
76. ABDUL MUTALIB
77. ABU TALEB

MURTAZA ALISHRI NAKLANKI MOWLA

1. MOWLANA ALI
.
.
49. MOWLANA SHAH KARIM AL HUSEINI

---------------------

FROM ADMIN:

The complete list from Hazrat Ali to the present Imam is as follow:

1.Mowlana Ali
2. “ Husein
3. “ Zainu ' l -Abidin
4. “ Muhammad Baqir
5. “ Ja'far as-Sadiq
6. “ Isma'il
7. “ Muhammad bin Isma'il
8. “ Wafi Ahmad
9. “ Taqi Muhammad
10. “ Razi Abdullah
11. “ Mahdi Muhammad
12. Our True Lord Shah Qa'im
13. “ Mansur
14. “ Mu'izz
15. “ Aziz
16. “ Hakim Abu Ali
17. “ Zahìr Ali
18. “ Mustansir bi'llah
19. “ Nizar
20. “ Hadi
21. “ Muhtadi
22. “ Qahir
23. “ (Hasan) Ala zikir - hi's salam
24. “ Ala Muhammad
25. “ Khud Jalalu'ddin Hasan
26. “ Alau' ddin Muhammad
27. “ Ruknu'ddin Khurshah
28. “ Shamsu'ddin Muhammad
29. “ Qasim Shah
30. “ Islam Shah
31. “ Muhammad bin Islam Shah
32. Our True Lord Shah Mustansir bi'llah
33. “ Abdu'ssalam
34. “ Gharib Mirza
35. “ Abu Zarr Ali
36. “ Murad Mirza
37. “ Zu'l -fiqar Ali
38. “ Nuru'ddin Ali
39. “ Sayyid Khalilu'llah
40. “ Nizar II
41. “ Sayyid Ali
42. “ Hassan Ali
43. “ Qasim Ali
44. “ Abu'l Hasan Ali
45. “ Khalilu'llah Ali
46. “ Hasan Ali (II)
47. “ Ali Shah
48. " Shah Sultan Muhammad Shah
49. " SHAH KARIM AL HUSEINI

[kandani]

Slight correction....

Shr Budha is not Adam. Shri Budha is Imam Honayd (Adam's father).

[kmaherali]

Slight correction....

Shr Budha is not Adam. Shri Budha is Imam Honayd (Adam's father).

I think Alwaez meant Adam as a generic title for all 'patras' under Shri Budh just as 'Naklanki Ali' represents all Imams after Hazarat Ali.

[nagib]

I guess you mean the expression "Budh ma thi Shish" which means the Imam after Budh [also named Honaid] is Shish [Seth] the son of Adam.

Where the geneology is Boudh -->Adam --> Seth
BUT the Imamat is Boudh --> Seth

Adam only being a prophet though his was son of Imam and father of Imam but not himself Imam [A little bite like Prince Aly Khan]

Nagib
================

[kmaherali]

Where the geneology is Boudh -->Adam --> Seth
BUT the Imamat is Boudh --> Seth

Nagib
================

or like Imam Melchizedidek -> Abraham -> Ismael

Imam Melchizedidek -> Ismael being Imamat links.

Says a great deal about the status Adam and Abraham!

[kmaherali]

YAM,

Please note that the Vishanapuri that I posted earlier does not comprise the entire geneology of the Imams. It appears for practical reasons, only a few names have been included. This does not mean that the unlisted Imams are less important.

To illustrate the point, for Dua Pur Jug of 2400 years, only seven names have been mentioned. In comparison during the present era of Naklank Ali there have been 49 Imams over 1400 years.

Nevertheless the Vishanapuri serves to illustrate the continuity of Imamat since time immemorial.

[naghi]

all you are talking about Imamat philosophy through theindirect ways as like indian culture or Hinduism or budism. If you are a moslem, and trust in islam, you shoud refer it to islamic texts or holy Koran. Imamat in quran is several times mentioned like when Abraham (Ebrahim) is tested by god, and successfully passed them, God says I give the position of imamat to you. and then Abraham asks this position for his sons and generations originating by him, and god says this position never reaches to bad persons(Zalemin). also there are several hadith from our great messenger Hazrate Mohammad that he described the position of Amiralmomenin Ali is like as the position of Harun for moses (Musa kalimollah), or describing that Ali is like a gate of science while himself is a city ofscience. Good luck

[kmaherali]

all you are talking about Imamat philosophy through theindirect ways as like indian culture or Hinduism or budism. If you are a moslem, and trust in islam, you shoud refer it to islamic texts or holy Koran.

Your views on Imamat are correct and they represent an understanding and context of the Quran and Arabia. However, Islam is very broad and is not restricted to a particular context or time. It is universal as per the following statement of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah from his memoirs.

All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe.

[star_munir]

As mentioned in VaishnaPuri.. the Imams pre Ali..the Imams pre Adam..
I read in a book by a Muslim author dates and years of events of Mahabharat. Obviously Ginans and old Dua is more reliable but just thought to post other views. It is from book "Tareekh ka safar" . Author writes that some historians have now proven that characters of hindu mythology have not only once existed in this world but also some stories associated with them are true.
The author has given some dates like
Birth of Raam Chandra 4 December 7323 BC
Pandavs Vanvaas ended on 19 May 5562 BC.
On September 27, 5561 BC Krishna went for Dwarka
On September 29 ,5561 BC Krishna invited brahmins for dinner
On September 30, 5561 BC Krishna entered Hastinapur
On October 1, 5561 BC Krishna met mother of Pandavs, Kunti and agreed her to solve the matter with Koravs
On October 2, 5561 BC Krishna met Koravs
On October 3, 5561 BC both Koravs and Pandavs talked for agreement for the first time
On October 4,5561 BC Koravs tried to arrest Krishna but got failed
On October 3, 5561 BC for the third time there was meeting between Pandavs and Koravs
On 11 October 5561 BC Pandavs completed preparations for the war
And on 16 October 5561 BC there was war of Maha Bharat which ended on November 2, 5561 BC.

[kmaherali]

As mentioned in VaishnaPuri.. the Imams pre Ali..the Imams pre Adam..
I read in a book by a Muslim author dates and years of events of Mahabharat. Obviously Ginans and old Dua is more reliable but just thought to post other views. It is from book "Tareekh ka safar" . Author writes that some historians have now proven that characters of hindu mythology have not only once existed in this world but also some stories associated with them are true.
The author has given some dates like
Birth of Raam Chandra 4 December 7323 BC
Pandavs Vanvaas ended on 19 May 5562 BC.
On September 27, 5561 BC Krishna went for Dwarka
On September 29 ,5561 BC Krishna invited brahmins for dinner
On September 30, 5561 BC Krishna entered Hastinapur
On October 1, 5561 BC Krishna met mother of Pandavs, Kunti and agreed her to solve the matter with Koravs
On October 2, 5561 BC Krishna met Koravs
On October 3, 5561 BC both Koravs and Pandavs talked for agreement for the first time
On October 4,5561 BC Koravs tried to arrest Krishna but got failed
On October 3, 5561 BC for the third time there was meeting between Pandavs and Koravs
On 11 October 5561 BC Pandavs completed preparations for the war
And on 16 October 5561 BC there was war of Maha Bharat which ended on November 2, 5561 BC.

The dates for these periods are as wild as the scholars' imagination! I think we should adhere to trusted sources of our tradition in this regard.This matter was discussed extensively in this forum under Pre-Adam -> "Who was the Imam" that succeeded Krishna. You may want to go there.

The following is an exerpt from the footnote to the introduction to "God Talks with Arjuna, THE BHAGAVATD GITA" translations and commentary by Paramahansa Yogananda, which highlights the point I am trying to make.

In Astronomical Dating of the Mahabharata War (Delhi: Agam Kala Prakasham, 1896) Dr. E. Vedavyas surveyed the researches done by 120 scholars over the past hundred years. Sixty-one of the scholars fixed the Kurukshetra war as having occured between 3000 and 3200 B.C. The next favoured time period - subscribed to by forty of the scholars - was between 1000 and 1500 B.C. [ This is within Swami Sri Yukteshwar's theory of Dua Pur Jug]

In 1987 archeologists discovered the ruins of a prosperous ancient city just off the west coast of India underwater in the Gulf of Kutch - the precise location where traditional places Dwarka, the city founded by Sri Krishna. The Mahabharata describes how at the end of Krishna's life the sea rose and engulfed Dwarka. According to the MLBD Newsletter of Indological Bibliography (September 1987 and January 1988), archeologists believe that the newly discovered ruins may have been the site of Krishna's capital, and estimate that the ruins are approximately 3,500 years old. Whether or not this yields an accurate date for Krishna's liftime is open to speculation, since it is known that Dwarka was built on the ruins of another older city, according to Dr. S.R. rao. leader of the undersea excavation.

[star_munir]

There are many times contradictions in history specially when we are discussing about some thing that happened in very ancient time and I agree with you that we should adhere to trusted sources of our tradition in this regard but I just posted as there are different vieews of different people.

[sheri]

Your views on Imamat are correct and they represent an understanding and context of the Quran and Arabia. However, Islam is very broad and is not restricted to a particular context or time. It is universal as per the following statement of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah from his memoirs.

All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe.

You have picked and chosen words beautifully to support your thesis. However, if you read the whole context, you will get a better perspective of what IMAM SMS was trying to explain. He is saying Islam is the answer, not that Islam accepts all these Hindu incarnations. Please provide full context, we should not be cherry picking. Furthermore, in this paragraph "IMAM Hassan" is mentioned. Is that a typo?

"First, however, we must ask ourselves why this final and consummate appearance of the Divine Will was granted to mankind, and what were its causes. All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe. Then what need was there for a Divine revelation to Mohammed ?

The answer of Islam is precise and clear. In spite of its great spiritual strength, Jewish monotheism has retained two characteristics which render it essentially different from Islamic monotheism: God has remained, in spite of all, a national and racial God for the children of Israel, and His personality is entirely separate from its supreme manifestation, the Universe. In far-distant countries such as India and China, the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism, by idolatry and even by a pantheism which was hardly distinguishable from atheism that these popular and folklore religions bore little resemblance to that which emanated from the true and pure Godhead. Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh. Thus there was an absolute need for the Divine Word's revelation, to Mohammed himself, a man like the others, of God's person and of his relations to the Universe which he had created. Once man has thus comprehended the essence of existence, there remains for him the duty, since he knows the absolute value of his own soul, of making for himself a direct path which will constantly lead his individual soul to and bind it with the universal Soul of which the Universeas much of it as we perceive with our limited visions one of the infinite manifestations. Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as mono-realism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allah-o-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul. Imam Hassan has explained the Islamic doctrine of God and the Universe by analogy with the sun and its reflection in the pool of a fountain; there is certainly a reflection or image of the sun, but with what poverty and with what little reality; how small and pale is the likeness between this impalpable image and the immense, blazing, white-hot glory of the celestial sphere itself. Allah is the sun; and the Universe, as we know it in all its magnitude, and time, with its power, are nothing more than the reflection of the Absolute in the mirror of the fountain."

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/9930

[sheri]

So there are 78 imams plz can you quote the lines of ginan and name all the 78 imams.

The names of the Patras were recited in the Old Dua composed by Pir Sadardeen. Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji has mentioned them in his book "Noor en Ala Noor". I will post them here later.

There is no mention of any Hindu dieties/Shris in the old dua. Ismailism is a branch of Shia Islam and it has no relationship whatsoever with Hinduism. The only relationship Islam and Ismailism have with Hinduism is to show respect for their beliefs to practice pluralism as the IMAM has instructed us to do so.

[ShamsB]

So there are 78 imams plz can you quote the lines of ginan and name all the 78 imams.

The names of the Patras were recited in the Old Dua composed by Pir Sadardeen. Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji has mentioned them in his book "Noor en Ala Noor". I will post them here later.

There is no mention of any Hindu dieties/Shris in the old dua. Ismailism is a branch of Shia Islam and it has no relationship whatsoever with Hinduism. The only relationship Islam and Ismailism have with Hinduism is to show respect for their beliefs to practice pluralism as the IMAM has instructed us to do so.

Yeah - you're wrong


You haven't read the Old Du'a - this proves it.

Shams

[tret]

The names of the Patras were recited in the Old Dua composed by Pir Sadardeen. Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji has mentioned them in his book "Noor en Ala Noor". I will post them here later.

There is no mention of any Hindu dieties/Shris in the old dua. Ismailism is a branch of Shia Islam and it has no relationship whatsoever with Hinduism. The only relationship Islam and Ismailism have with Hinduism is to show respect for their beliefs to practice pluralism as the IMAM has instructed us to do so.

Yeah - you're wrong


You haven't read the Old Du'a - this proves it.

Shams

Jama'at of each region had their Du'a. In other words, there was not one unified Du'a as we do today. I remember the old Du'a that we were reciting in central asia, and it was specific to our region, and certainly no mention of hindu deities. In case of indian jama'at that could be true, since it was specific to jama'at of india, and not universally accepted one. However, in today's unified Du'a, we don't find them.

[agakhani]

Who told you that we Ismailis from Indo Pak were not reciting names of 77 patras ( holder of noor) on old dua? Yes we did that not one, ten, hundred but more then 600 years.

[sheri]

Who told you that we Ismailis from Indo Pak were not reciting names of 77 patras ( holder of noor) on old dua? Yes we did that not one, ten, hundred but more then 600 years.

All these concepts may have existed in your jamats in India given the Hindu background of your countries. However, in other jamats the old dua given by Pir Saddrudin did not include any mention of Vishnu, or reincarnations.

However, past is the past, the current dua does not have any of these concepts and so they have been discarded from our religion. The constitution lays out our beliefs, the current dua lays out our beliefs, and the farmans of MHI lays out out beliefs for the present time. You are welcome to accept these beliefs layed out by MHI or reject them. The choice is yours.

[agakhani]

However, past is the past

Great, our old Dua is old, it is past so, we should not count it or read it!! am I right? then Quran is more then 1400 years old! it is also past ; then why should we have to read it!!!??

Don't you think Sheri "you trapped in your own words"!!???

Sun is 4.2 billion years old ( not 600 or 1400 years) but we are still taking its light, we are not refusing it saying hey.. you are too old so, we will not take your lights any more!!! do we? Remember this that old dua was not appropriate then it would not have recited in JKs more then 600 years.

[sheri]

You can revere the old dua because it was a part of history. However, not accepting the changes that MHI has made to the dua, not accepting MHI command to return copies of the firmans of previous IMAM, not accepting the constitution are all signs that you are living in the era of IMAM SMS and have much ignored MHIs commands.

With respect to the Quran, MHI has told us in the constitution that "Quran" is a fundamental to our religion (refer to constitution).

With respect to the Sun, back in history people worshiped the Sun as God. Should be using that kind of history as well or should be change our ways based our what our guide, MHI, is telling us?