Humanity better off without religions.

[FreeLancer]

I could not grasp second line ' but rather to change the nature of the one who prays', can you elaborate?

Prayer is the expression of our insufficiency and total reliance on God. We realize that whatever God wills for us is the best that can happen regardless of whether our wishes are fulfilled.

Hence prayer engenders humility and gratitude.

Week persons pray and pray because they do not have confidence in themselves. We are taught and trained " JIA(N) KARIYE(N) TEI(N) HOYA. It is Karma theory. It is written so it will happen. When it is written a person can not change its fate. God wanted that way therefore I can't interfere.
WE CAN FIGHT WITH GOD BUT CAN NOT WIN. It is a very beautiful and meaningful couplet in Urdu.
LAAI HAYAT AAEI QAZA LE CHALI CHALEY
NA APNI KHUSHI AAEI NA APNI KHUSHI CHALEY

[sheri]

Prayer can take many forms:

1) You pray because since childhood that is what you were taught to do.

2) You pray when you want something material - admission in school, that job, wealth, health etc.

3) You pray when you admire gods blessings - you got into the school, you got that job, you got cured from that disease etc

4) You pray because you admire the world around you - and you admire gods creation, the way the world functions etc

5) You pray because you just feel happiness, joy from it - you don't want anything, you don't admire anything - you just love being with god.

So prayer can take different forms - its more about an individual person - and what prayer means to them. Some of these make you dependent on god. Some of these make you admire god. Some of these make you close to God. It depends on your personal needs.

[FreeLancer]

Of course prayer can take different forms. As I have already mentioned in my post that we are trained, guided, and disciplined in that regard and it has become our habit to depend upon higher authority for help. In religious books and even in ginans it is suggested, why to struggle because it is written, it is fate. When it is written then why to waste time in prayers.

DOSH DAYAL JI KO KIYU(N) KAR DIJIEYE
JO KARMEY LIKHIYA HOYA SO HI PAAWEY

AANKHU(N) SE JO BHI AANSU(N) BAHEY GA
YE HI KAHEGA QISMAT KA LIKHA HO KAR RAHEGA

[sheri]

Of course prayer can take different forms. As I have already mentioned in my post that we are trained, guided, and disciplined in that regard and it has become our habit to depend upon higher authority for help. In religious books and even in ginans it is suggested, why to struggle because it is written, it is fate. When it is written then why to waste time in prayers.

Even though we are trained from a young age to pray, once we grow up - we make our own choices. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" Similarly, you are trained to pray, but once you grow up and have independent thought, no one can force you to pray - You have a choice.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his Memoirs has said:

"In Islam the Faithful believe in Divine justice and are convinced that the solution of the great problem of predestination and free will is to be found in the compromise that God knows what man is going to do, but that man is free to do it or not."

[FreeLancer]

Of course prayer can take different forms. As I have already mentioned in my post that we are trained, guided, and disciplined in that regard and it has become our habit to depend upon higher authority for help. In religious books and even in ginans it is suggested, why to struggle because it is written, it is fate. When it is written then why to waste time in prayers.

Even though we are trained from a young age to pray, once we grow up - we make our own choices. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" Similarly, you are trained to pray, but once you grow up and have independent thought, no one can force you to pray - You have a choice.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his Memoirs has said:

"In Islam the Faithful believe in Divine justice and are convinced that the solution of the great problem of predestination and free will is to be found in the compromise that God knows what man is going to do, but that man is free to do it or not."

Well God knows every thing and He has given free choice, in between these two what prayer has to do. Choices are not for prayer but for actions. When in Karma something good or bad is written banda is helpless because it is the choice of God and not banda, therefore prayers can't change the fate.
We don't have to pray for horse to drink water, if horse is thirsty will drink water.

[FreeLancer]

Lately creative team of God responsible for births is not up to quality standard. Research shows out of 10 babies born 4 are defective or with severe illnesses like, holes in hearts, defective heart valves, Autism, defective feet and legs, spine problems. blood problems, brain problems, count on and on.
God is perfect, how come the end products are defective? Angel for quality control is not up to his job, should be fired.

[kmaherali]

Lately creative team of God responsible for births is not up to quality standard. Research shows out of 10 babies born 4 are defective or with severe illnesses like, holes in hearts, defective heart valves, Autism, defective feet and legs, spine problems. blood problems, brain problems, count on and on.
God is perfect, how come the end products are defective? Angel for quality control is not up to his job, should be fired.

The thread below may answer some of the issues raised.

Pain, Suffering and Calamities

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... highlight=

[FreeLancer]

Lately creative team of God responsible for births is not up to quality standard. Research shows out of 10 babies born 4 are defective or with severe illnesses like, holes in hearts, defective heart valves, Autism, defective feet and legs, spine problems. blood problems, brain problems, count on and on.
God is perfect, how come the end products are defective? Angel for quality control is not up to his job, should be fired.

The thread below may answer some of the issues raised.

Pain, Suffering and Calamities

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... highlight=

I picked your 2 quotes from the thread you mentioned.

Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning how to dance in the rain.
- Vivian Greene

If you spend your whole life waiting for the storm,
you'll never enjoy the sunshine.
- Morris West

Question is about defected born babies. What is their fault they born with bodily defects. How come their parents enjoy sunshine or rain, when they look at their kids, tears rolled down the cheeks. Can babies with leg, feet, spinal chord defects dance in rain!! It is a suffering through out life for parents and growing up babies. Why in first place these are born defective?

[kmaherali]

Question is about defected born babies. What is their fault they born with bodily defects. How come their parents enjoy sunshine or rain, when they look at their kids, tears rolled down the cheeks. Can babies with leg, feet, spinal chord defects dance in rain!! It is a suffering through out life for parents and growing up babies. Why in first place these are born defective?

There is mystery in life and the operation of God's mercy. If you had read the whole thread, there is a Farman which states:

The Imams never try to prevent the destined and natural calamities that befall upon an individual. If the Imam removed these calamities then there would be no distinction between this world and the Hereafter and this world would be Paradise. You should not be saddened by worldly suffering, in fact, you should be happy about it.

You should be happy with worldly suffering because such suffering is washing away your sins and the soul gains freedom and receives salvation. (Dar es Salaam, July 13, 1945)

[FreeLancer]

Question is about defected born babies. What is their fault they born with bodily defects. How come their parents enjoy sunshine or rain, when they look at their kids, tears rolled down the cheeks. Can babies with leg, feet, spinal chord defects dance in rain!! It is a suffering through out life for parents and growing up babies. Why in first place these are born defective?

There is mystery in life and the operation of God's mercy. If you had read the whole thread, there is a Farman which states:

The Imams never try to prevent the destined and natural calamities that befall upon an individual. If the Imam removed these calamities then there would be no distinction between this world and the Hereafter and this world would be Paradise. You should not be saddened by worldly suffering, in fact, you should be happy about it.

You should be happy with worldly suffering because such suffering is washing away your sins and the soul gains freedom and receives salvation. (Dar es Salaam, July 13, 1945)

I read the thread but my question was about defective sinless babies. These innocent just born with defects, what wrong they did. Punishment prior sins is not justice.
Being as a young man if I sinned then I understand there is punishment for me. Sufferings can be result of mistakes and blunders, sufferings can be test and suffering which are written for me in His divine book. I am living my normal life avoiding sins then why sufferings, is this the divine justice?

[kmaherali]

I read the thread but my question was about defective sinless babies. These innocent just born with defects, what wrong they did. Punishment prior sins is not justice.
Being as a young man if I sinned then I understand there is punishment for me. Sufferings can be result of mistakes and blunders, sufferings can be test and suffering which are written for me in His divine book. I am living my normal life avoiding sins then why sufferings, is this the divine justice?

For those who believe in reincarnation/rebirth, this is not a very difficult issue to understand. If you want to know more or discuss reincarnation/rebirth, there is a thread for it at: Doctrines --.> Reincarnation in Islam

Also as I indicated earlier, there is mystery inherent in life and creation. Everything cannot be explained purely by reason. Through spiritual elevation one can get the answers but that will remain personal

[FreeLancer]

I read the thread but my question was about defective sinless babies. These innocent just born with defects, what wrong they did. Punishment prior sins is not justice.
Being as a young man if I sinned then I understand there is punishment for me. Sufferings can be result of mistakes and blunders, sufferings can be test and suffering which are written for me in His divine book. I am living my normal life avoiding sins then why sufferings, is this the divine justice?

For those who believe in reincarnation/rebirth, this is not a very difficult issue to understand. If you want to know more or discuss reincarnation/rebirth, there is a thread for it at: Doctrines --.> Reincarnation in Islam

Also as I indicated earlier, there is mystery inherent in life and creation. Everything cannot be explained purely by reason. Through spiritual elevation one can get the answers but that will remain personal

Ismailis do not believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation is not included in Tenets of Ismailism. When very first baby born first time was she born sin full or sinless? Why I do not remember my previous life, why I can't recall my sins or blunders. Even in front of a judge prosecutor reads the charges. If there are no charges means case should be dismissed, then why sufferings!

[sheri]

Reincarnation is not included in Tenets of Ismailism. Why I do not remember my previous life, why I can't recall my sins or blunders. Even in front of a judge prosecutor reads the charges. If there are no charges means case should be dismissed, then why sufferings!

I agree with you on this and so does the Imam. Here is what Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah has to say on the topic.

We as Ismaili Muslims don't believe in Hindu concepts. I would advise everyone to read this article before advising others. People on this forum who are accepting reincarnation are going against what the Imam's are advising us. They are still holding on to their Hindu beliefs.

http://www.amaana.org/ismaili/reincarna ... p-on-high/

[kmaherali]

I agree with you on this and so does the Imam. Here is what Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah has to say on the topic.

We as Ismaili Muslims don't believe in Hindu concepts. I would advise everyone to read this article before advising others. People on this forum who are accepting reincarnation are going against what the Imam's are advising us. They are still holding on to their Hindu beliefs.

http://www.amaana.org/ismaili/reincarna ... p-on-high/

There are Farmans which suggest otherwise. Please can you put your post for discussion in the thread about reincarnation. Let us not mix subjects.

[kmaherali]

Ismailis do not believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation is not included in Tenets of Ismailism. When very first baby born first time was she born sin full or sinless? Why I do not remember my previous life, why I can't recall my sins or blunders. Even in front of a judge prosecutor reads the charges. If there are no charges means case should be dismissed, then why sufferings!

It is a matter of interpretation. MSMS made the following Farmans:

"You have not realized during the period when you have human beings, what could you gain after death when you have remained donkeys and dogs and beasts after having gone through 184,000 births? What benefit would be accrued in again becoming dog after death". (18.10.1903, Wadhwan Kemp)

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)

So not only can you be reborn deformed, but you can also be reborn an animal!

[FreeLancer]

Ismailis do not believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation is not included in Tenets of Ismailism. When very first baby born first time was she born sin full or sinless? Why I do not remember my previous life, why I can't recall my sins or blunders. Even in front of a judge prosecutor reads the charges. If there are no charges means case should be dismissed, then why sufferings!

It is a matter of interpretation. MSMS made the following Farmans:

"You have not realized during the period when you have human beings, what could you gain after death when you have remained donkeys and dogs and beasts after having gone through 184,000 births? What benefit would be accrued in again becoming dog after death". (18.10.1903, Wadhwan Kemp)

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)

So not only can you be reborn deformed, but you can also be reborn an animal!

On behalf of 'study circle' Mombasa, count Paro asked the following question requesting MSMS in 1954. The question was:
" Do we Ismailis believe that there is ' REBIRTH' on this earth to repay and receive repayment of 'KARMIC' debt or do we believe that this REBIRTH will be in a new creation than the human being".

Count Paro wrote," To this question Khudavend was most kind to reply. But Khudavend's reply has not lessened the CONFUSION in the minds of some missionaries who with deep set of HNDU MYTHOLOGY at the back of their minds, quote Khudavend's earlier Farman where Khudavend, perhaps ALLEGORICALLY HAS REFFERED THE MAN TO REBORN AS DONKEY OR ANIMAL ETC.

Here is an excerpt from the reply of MSMS to count Paro.

" Like the Prophet, Like all the Imams, and like all the Prophets before Muhammad, My general Farmans are often ALLEGORICAL".

[FreeLancer]

Quotations from Ginans:

KARMEY LIKHIYA SOHI PAAVEY

Syed Muhammad Shah

JIS KE KARAM MEY DOZAKH LIKHIYA
SO KABHI NA BEHESHTEY JAYEY

Pir Sadardin

According to Pir, If hell is written in some one's fate, he shall not enter in haven.
Is this not helplessness? Humans are helpless puppets.

[kmaherali]

Here is an excerpt from the reply of MSMS to count Paro.

" Like the Prophet, Like all the Imams, and like all the Prophets before Muhammad, My general Farmans are often ALLEGORICAL".

OK let us forget the Farman about donkeys and dogs as it can be allegorical. Note that the Imam has used the word 'often' and not 'always'.

What would you say about the Farman:

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi) ?

[kmaherali]

According to Pir, If hell is written in some one's fate, he shall not enter in haven.
Is this not helplessness? Humans are helpless puppets.

This issue has been discussed at:

Doctrines --> Pre-destined or choice?

Please put your question there after going through the whole thread.

[FreeLancer]

Here is an excerpt from the reply of MSMS to count Paro.

" Like the Prophet, Like all the Imams, and like all the Prophets before Muhammad, My general Farmans are often ALLEGORICAL".

OK let us forget the Farman about donkeys and dogs as it can be allegorical. Note that the Imam has used the word 'often' and not 'always'.

What would you say about the Farman:

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi) ?

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said in one of his Farmans," During my 70 years of Imamat, I changed Farmans 70 times".
You quoted of 1903 and I of 1954.

[FreeLancer]

According to Pir, If hell is written in some one's fate, he shall not enter in haven.
Is this not helplessness? Humans are helpless puppets.

This issue has been discussed at:

Doctrines --> Pre-destined or choice?

Please put your question there after going through the whole thread.

In continued discussion I just gave references from Ginans. You did not commented on these two parts of Guinans.

[kmaherali]

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said in one of his Farmans," During my 70 years of Imamat, I changed Farmans 70 times".
You quoted of 1903 and I of 1954.

Are you aware of any Farman after this one on rebirth? I am not asking for hidayats to a particular study group or his speeches but only Farmans to his murids.

[FreeLancer]

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said in one of his Farmans," During my 70 years of Imamat, I changed Farmans 70 times".
You quoted of 1903 and I of 1954.

Are you aware of any Farman after this one on rebirth? I am not asking for hidayats to a particular study group or his speeches but only Farmans to his murids.

Imam's written Hidayat is also a Farman. Let me reproduce what Count Paro wrote.

On behalf of 'study circle' Mombasa, count Paro asked the following question requesting MSMS in 1954. The question was:
" Do we Ismailis believe that there is ' REBIRTH' on this earth to repay and receive repayment of 'KARMIC' debt or do we believe that this REBIRTH will be in a new creation than the human being".

Count Paro wrote," To this question Khudavend was most kind to reply. But Khudavend's reply has not lessened the CONFUSION in the minds of some missionaries who with deep set of HNDU MYTHOLOGY at the back of their minds, quote Khudavend's earlier Farman where Khudavend, perhaps ALLEGORICALLY HAS REFFERED THE MAN TO REBORN AS DONKEY OR ANIMAL ETC.
Here I am quoting an excerpt from the reply of MSMS to count Paro.

" Like the Prophet, Like all the Imams, and like all the Prophets before Muhammad, My general Farmans are often ALLEGORICAL".

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah always encouraged such type of religious circles and when requested he answered the questions. This practice is discontinued by Shah Karim. He seldom reply to such queries, but refer such questions to ITREB.
Reincarnation is not an article of faith or included in Tenets of Ismailism. It is even not included in The Preamble.

[kmaherali]

Imam's written Hidayat is also a Farman. Let me reproduce what Count Paro wrote.
.

Hidayats given to individuals or groups is NOT a Farman. It is not a Jamati audience. Only Farmans delivered by The Imam to the Jamat or Talikas are to be considered as Farmans.

[Admin]

Imam's written Hidayat is also a Farman. Let me reproduce what Count Paro wrote.
.

Hidayats given to individuals or groups is NOT a Farman. It is not a Jamati audience. Only Farmans delivered by The Imam to the Jamat or Talikas are to be considered as Farmans.

At an individual level, ANY communication from the Imam becomes FARMAN. A Farman is not necessarily made in a Jamati setting.

For example the Imam said to a group of Murid standing outside the building at Harvard in Boston "Convey my blessings to your family and Jamat, tell them that I have though of them". This becomes a Farman the moment the Imam utter these sentences. it may be a Farman only for these particular Murids but it is nonetheless a Farman.

It goes of the same of a written communication to the Murid. it may not apply to any other Murid but for that (those) Murid(s) it is a Farman

Eji Sahebe Farman lakhi mokaliya....

Ismaili Constitution: "Farman" - Any pronouncement, direction, order or ruling made or given by Mawlana Hazar Imam

[kmaherali]

It goes of the same of a written communication to the Murid. it may not apply to any other Murid but for that (those) Murid(s) it is a Farman

Eji Sahebe Farman lakhi mokaliya....

There is a Farman:

I have seen individual families, individual spiritual children from various parts of the world and they have said to Me, "These are my circumstances, Hazar Imam, we want to do this or we want to do that." And I advise them as individuals or as families to do this or to do that. But this does not mean that what I have said to the individual, what I have said to the family, is to be applied to the whole Jamat. If a man comes to Me and he says, "Hazar Imam, I have a sore tooth," do you think because I send him to the dentist, that the whole Jamat should go to the dentist? This is the problem that if I give advice to an individual or to a family, it must be accepted as an advice specifically to the individual or for the family.

If our circumstances were such that urgent decisions were required, or urgent actions were required, by My Jamat, I would convey the Farman to My councils, My councils would convey the Farman to My Jamat and the whole of My Jamat would know that I, as the Imam, have made a Farman which affected everyone. But until then you should remember that unless there is a Farman which has come to you through the Council or through Mukhis or Kamadias, there is no reason to believe that something I have said to an individual or to a family applied to the whole Jamat. We will continue without doubt to face problems in various parts of the world.(Nairobi Dec 1973)

[FreeLancer]

Imam's written Hidayat is also a Farman. Let me reproduce what Count Paro wrote.
.

Hidayats given to individuals or groups is NOT a Farman. It is not a Jamati audience. Only Farmans delivered by The Imam to the Jamat or Talikas are to be considered as Farmans.

At an individual level, ANY communication from the Imam becomes FARMAN. A Farman is not necessarily made in a Jamati setting.

For example the Imam said to a group of Murid standing outside the building at Harvard in Boston "Convey my blessings to your family and Jamat, tell them that I have though of them". This becomes a Farman the moment the Imam utter these sentences. it may be a Farman only for these particular Murids but it is nonetheless a Farman.

It goes of the same of a written communication to the Murid. it may not apply to any other Murid but for that (those) Murid(s) it is a Farman

Eji Sahebe Farman lakhi mokaliya....

Ismaili Constitution: "Farman" - Any pronouncement, direction, order or ruling made or given by Mawlana Hazar Imam

I agree.
Farman is order, any pronouncement, direction, ruling made or given by Hazar Imam.

[kmaherali]

Farman is order, any pronouncement, direction, ruling made or given by Hazar Imam.

Therefore a Farman made to a group of individuals can be different than a Jamati Farman.

[Admin]

Therefore a Farman made to a group of individuals can be different than a Jamati Farman.

This is my point but in both case it is called Farman. The only difference is that Farmans made to individuals only apply to them.

[FreeLancer]

Therefore a Farman made to a group of individuals can be different than a Jamati Farman.

This is my point but in both case it is called Farman. The only difference is that Farmans made to individuals only apply to them.

How come the topic Farman is discussed in the thread humanity better off without religion. Is it allowed for holy cows.