Hadiths about Hazrat Ali,Ahl-e-Bait,PanjtanPaak

[kmaherali]

I don't think so Hazrat Khadija was Pir.

The article: https://shanetajallinqr.files.wordpress ... hunzai.pdf states that Bibi Khadija was the Hujja of the Imam.

[ismaili103]

I don't think so Hazrat Khadija was Pir.

The article: https://shanetajallinqr.files.wordpress ... hunzai.pdf states that Bibi Khadija was the Hujja of the Imam.

Pir's are Noor e Muhammad, then how come Hz Khadija and Prophet Muhammad living at the same time. There can't be two entity witn the same " Divine Noor " at the same time.

[kmaherali]

I don't think so Hazrat Khadija was Pir.

The article: https://shanetajallinqr.files.wordpress ... hunzai.pdf states that Bibi Khadija was the Hujja of the Imam.

Pir's are Noor e Muhammad, then how come Hz Khadija and Prophet Muhammad living at the same time. There can't be two entity witn the same " Divine Noor " at the same time.

At any given time there can be many individuals who have attained the level of being the Bearers of the Noor by virtue of spiritual elevation, but in our Tariqah only one person can function as such and is appointed by the Imam. The Imam appoints only one person as a Pir who is recognized by the Jamat as such.

Other bearers of the Noor may or may not be recognized by the Jamat. The Pir also has to be an Ahl al-Bayt.

At present other members of the Nurani family may also be `qualified`for Piratan, but are not recognized as such by the Jamat unless the Imam appoints them as Pir.

During the time of the Prophet, Bibi Khadija was the Pir as long as she was alive although the Prophet was also spiritually elevated. However he became Pir after the death of Bibi Khadija.

[shivaathervedi]

Hazrat Abdul Muttalib( Imam ) - Hazrat Abdullah ( Pir )

Hazrat Abu Talib ( Imam )- Hazrat Muhammad ( Pir )

Mowla Ali ( Imam )- Hazrat Muhammad ( Pir )

I don't think so Hazrat Khadija was Pir.

You are right Bibi Khadijah was not a Pir. I asked Karim to provide any proof from Ismaili literature or ginans but so far he failed and keep diverting the issue.
Hazrat Abdullah passed away before birth of Prophet Muhammad. Now either Piratan seized for 6 months and when Prophet was born he was installed as a Pir by Hazrat Abdul Mutalib. Here we do not see any role of Bibi as a Pir.
Again when Hazrat Abdul Mutalib was Imam, you wrote Hazrat Abu Talib was Imam also. So 2 Imams at a time, may be one active and other potential.

[shivaathervedi]

I don't think so Hazrat Khadija was Pir.

The article: https://shanetajallinqr.files.wordpress ... hunzai.pdf states that Bibi Khadija was the Hujja of the Imam.

On the basis of an article we can not say Bibi was Hujjah/Pir to Imam. Need solid evidence from Hadiths, Ismaili history, or ginans.

[shivaathervedi]

The article: https://shanetajallinqr.files.wordpress ... hunzai.pdf states that Bibi Khadija was the Hujja of the Imam.

Pir's are Noor e Muhammad, then how come Hz Khadija and Prophet Muhammad living at the same time. There can't be two entity witn the same " Divine Noor " at the same time.

At any given time there can be many individuals who have attained the level of being the Bearers of the Noor by virtue of spiritual elevation, but in our Tariqah only one person can function as such and is appointed by the Imam. The Imam appoints only one person as a Pir who is recognized by the Jamat as such.

Other bearers of the Noor may or may not be recognized by the Jamat. The Pir also has to be an Ahl al-Bayt.

At present other members of the Nurani family may also be `qualified`for Piratan, but are not recognized as such by the Jamat unless the Imam appoints them as Pir.

During the time of the Prophet, Bibi Khadija was the Pir as long as she was alive although the Prophet was also spiritually elevated. However he became Pir after the death of Bibi Khadija.

You wrote Pir also has to be an AHL E BAIT.
What about PINDIYAAT? Is that book considered as Ahl e Bait?

[shivaathervedi]

According to ayat e Tatheer 33/33, Prophet declared that 5 Pure Entities are Ahl e Bait and not as you described.
You wrote," Prophet became Pir after death of Bibi Khadijah." Prophet became Rasul at age of 40, now as Sutpunthis consider Prophet as Pir so again there were 2 Pirs living under the same roof because Bibi was alive till Prophet turned 53. Or admit for 13 years Prophet was not a Pir, BUT A WAITING PIR.
I think according to your illogical logic you deduced 1+1=1

I referred you to articles on the first page of this thread. You have not read them. One of the article states about Imam Jaffer as-Sadiq:

"When asked by a questioner, ‘Give me a proof from the Book of God to establish the dictum that the ‘progeny’ of Muhammad are specifically the members of his house, as distinguished from others’, the Imam replied:

“Very well, God, and He is the most truthful of speakers, said: ‘Lo! God preferred Adam and Nuh and the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above all his creatures.” [3]

And then the Imam clarified who the people were that were thus chosen and said:

“They were descendants one of another; and God is Hearer and Knower. [4] ‘And it is impossible to be of the progeny of the Prophet except through direct descent’.”[5]

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq has thus unequivocally declared that only the progeny of Prophet Muhammad through direct descent are the Ahl al-Bayt."

Prophethood and Piratan have no relationship. If the Prophet became the Prophet, it does not follow that he also became the Pir at the same time. The Pir is only appointed after the death of the existing Pir who remains the Pir for lifetime. Hence Prophet Muhammad would have been appointed after the death of Bibi Khadija.

You quoted Hadith of Imam Ja'far Sadiq and I quoted Hadith of Prophet Muhammad, there are many more in Shi'i literature. I understand that according to Sutpunth Pirs should be from Ahl e Bait. BUT here question is about Piratan of Bibi Khadijah. If she had been Pir should have been included in Piratan list in old Du'a.
You wrote," Prophethood and Piratan have no relationship." It is a U turn statement. Before that you and your Sutpunthi like minded kept writing that Prophet is first pir in series of final cycle and is mentioned in old Du'a. You people have equating Prophethhod = Piratan = Brahma. Now what! change in Sutpunthi philosophy!!

[ismaili103]

Again when Hazrat Abdul Mutalib was Imam, you wrote Hazrat Abu Talib was Imam also. So 2 Imams at a time, may be one active and other potential.

I didn't wrote that, I just said that when Hz Abdul Muttalib was Imam at that time Hz Abdullah was Pir.

Hz Abu Talib became the Imam after the death of Hz Abdul Muttalib. So there were no 2 Imams.

[ismaili103]

[/quote]You wrote Pir also has to be an AHL E BAIT.
What about PINDIYAAT? Is that book considered as Ahl e Bait?

Pir Pandyat was written by Imam Mustansirbillah-2 who is from Ahl E Bait. At that time Imam had the authority of Pir and Imam both but Imam himself give the title of Pir to that Book.

[kmaherali]

On the basis of an article we can not say Bibi was Hujjah/Pir to Imam. Need solid evidence from Hadiths, Ismaili history, or ginans.

It seems that you have not read the article. The article contains references from primary sources and of course they are historical.

[kmaherali]

You wrote Pir also has to be an AHL E BAIT.
What about PINDIYAAT? Is that book considered as Ahl e Bait?

Yes, it is a book written by the Imam who is the Ahl al-Bayt. Our relationship to the Imam is based on him being the source of guidance. The Imam issues Farmans and Talikas. I see no deference between Farmans/Talikas from Ahl al-Bayt and the book sent by the Imam.

[kmaherali]

You quoted Hadith of Imam Ja'far Sadiq and I quoted Hadith of Prophet Muhammad, there are many more in Shi'i literature. I understand that according to Sutpunth Pirs should be from Ahl e Bait. BUT here question is about Piratan of Bibi Khadijah. If she had been Pir should have been included in Piratan list in old Du'a.
You wrote," Prophethood and Piratan have no relationship." It is a U turn statement. Before that you and your Sutpunthi like minded kept writing that Prophet is first pir in series of final cycle and is mentioned in old Du'a. You people have equating Prophethhod = Piratan = Brahma. Now what! change in Sutpunthi philosophy!!

The Prophet was addressing the Umma which comprises the Shia and the Sunni. The Imam gave guidance based on the Shia understanding of Ahl al-Bayt. If you consider yourself to be a Shia then the Imam's guidance is more appropriate.

The Old Dua did not mention any of the Pirs of the previous cycle. It has mentioned only the Pirs of the present cycle beginning from Pir Muhammad who is considered the first Pir.

Piratan is the office in our Tariqah whereas Prophethood pertains to mankind. There is a vast difference. The two are not at all equal. Not all Prophets were Pirs.

[shivaathervedi]

Again when Hazrat Abdul Mutalib was Imam, you wrote Hazrat Abu Talib was Imam also. So 2 Imams at a time, may be one active and other potential.

I didn't wrote that, I just said that when Hz Abdul Muttalib was Imam at that time Hz Abdullah was Pir.

Hz Abu Talib became the Imam after the death of Hz Abdul Muttalib. So there were no 2 Imams.

Do you know the real name of Hazrat Abdullah father of Prophet?
When Hazrat Abu Talib was Imam Mowla Ali was around, again two Imams under a roof, or one active Imam and other potential Imam or Mowla Ali became Imam after demise of his father.!!

[Admin]

There is never 2 Imams at time. There is one Imam and one Imam to be. Calling them 2 Imams is misleading and this is why so many people raise pretending to be the other Imam.

[Admin]

The Old Dua did not mention any of the Pirs of the previous cycle.

True but there is some Granths mentioning the name of the Pir for the reign of each Avatar.

[shivaathervedi]

You wrote Pir also has to be an AHL E BAIT.
What about PINDIYAAT? Is that book considered as Ahl e Bait?

Pir Pandyat was written by Imam Mustansirbillah-2 who is from Ahl E Bait. At that time Imam had the authority of Pir and Imam both but Imam himself give the title of Pir to that Book.

[/quote]

Who Gave status of a Pir to PINDIYAAT, Imam Mustansirbillah 2, or Imam Mustansirbillah 3. First clarify this issue.
PINDIYAAT is a compilation by a murid and not literally written by Imam himself, chances are he may have edited or included some portions.
When first this book was sent to jamaits in snbcontinent, it was named only as PINDIYAAT. THERE WAS NO PREFIX OF WORD PIR IN FRONT OF IT.
When Imam transfered title of Pir from him self to PINDIYAAT means he was no Pir but only Imam, that's why his name as a Pir is not available in the list of Pirs in old Du'a.

[shivaathervedi]

There is never 2 Imams at time. There is one Imam and one Imam to be. Calling them 2 Imams is misleading and this is why so many people raise pretending to be the other Imam.

Please note I have mentioned potential Imam or would be Imam.
How will you solve assertion of Mr. 103.

[shivaathervedi]

The Old Dua did not mention any of the Pirs of the previous cycle.

True but there is some Granths mentioning the name of the Pir for the reign of each Avatar.

But historically there are gaps in Avtars means planet was without a pir also.

[shivaathervedi]

You wrote Pir also has to be an AHL E BAIT.
What about PINDIYAAT? Is that book considered as Ahl e Bait?

Yes, it is a book written by the Imam who is the Ahl al-Bayt. Our relationship to the Imam is based on him being the source of guidance. The Imam issues Farmans and Talikas. I see no deference between Farmans/Talikas from Ahl al-Bayt and the book sent by the Imam.

Pindiyaat was literally not written by Imam but his FARMUDAAT ( sayings ) were
complied by a murid and was given name Pindiyaat.
Let me put same question to you which I asked 103, Which Imam gave status of Pir to Pindiyaat, Imam Mustansirbillah 2, or Imam Mustansirbillah 3.
You wrote," I see no difference between Farmans/Talikas from Ahl e Bait and the book sent by the Imam." My INNOCENT question to you;
CAN WE CALL KIZ AS A PIR? A COMPILATION OF FARMANS.

[shivaathervedi]

You quoted Hadith of Imam Ja'far Sadiq and I quoted Hadith of Prophet Muhammad, there are many more in Shi'i literature. I understand that according to Sutpunth Pirs should be from Ahl e Bait. BUT here question is about Piratan of Bibi Khadijah. If she had been Pir should have been included in Piratan list in old Du'a.
You wrote," Prophethood and Piratan have no relationship." It is a U turn statement. Before that you and your Sutpunthi like minded kept writing that Prophet is first pir in series of final cycle and is mentioned in old Du'a. You people have equating Prophethhod = Piratan = Brahma. Now what! change in Sutpunthi philosophy!!

The Prophet was addressing the Umma which comprises the Shia and the Sunni. The Imam gave guidance based on the Shia understanding of Ahl al-Bayt. If you consider yourself to be a Shia then the Imam's guidance is more appropriate.

The Old Dua did not mention any of the Pirs of the previous cycle. It has mentioned only the Pirs of the present cycle beginning from Pir Muhammad who is considered the first Pir.

Piratan is the office in our Tariqah whereas Prophethood pertains to mankind. There is a vast difference. The two are not at all equal. Not all Prophets were Pirs.

You wrote," The Prophet was addressing the Ummah which comprises the Shia and the Sunni." My question to you, Are the Ismailis not a part of UMMAH?
You asked me if I am a Shia or not........? Personally I am above Shia/Sunni conflict. At time of Prophet there were no Shia or Sunni grouping. I respect all religions even atheists.
Regarding Prophet being a Satpunthi pir, I have requested you people to visit and check archaic and old files at ITREB Karachi or Mumbai. Check the classified files. There had been a discussion in early 50's on Prophet being a pir or not and other issues. Reports were sent to MSMS and in my opinion after lengthy discussions list of pirs was not included in new Du'a decided by Imam. From 1951 to July 1957, MSMS made many changes. Prophethood is above piratan.
Can you name some other Prophets being pirs for my information.

[shivaathervedi]

On the basis of an article we can not say Bibi was Hujjah/Pir to Imam. Need solid evidence from Hadiths, Ismaili history, or ginans.

It seems that you have not read the article. The article contains references from primary sources and of course they are historical.

I have a great respect for Rashidah Hunzai, Dr.Faqir Muhammad Hunzai, and Allamah Saheb. I was aware of this article. With due respect I want to point out few things related to this article.
According to history Bibi Khadijah's birth year is 555 AD or 567 AD. According to Shi'i traditions at time of her marriage to Prophet, she was of same age as of Prophet that is 24/25 years. She was not divorced and her only marriage was with Prophet Muhammad. Her only children from Prophet were Hazrat Qasim and Bibi Fatimah.
Ismailis believe God created Noor e Ali and Noor e Muhammadi in primordial time. No where it is mentioned in any history or tradition books that God Created Noor e Ali and Noor e Bibi Khadijah, THEN how come Bibi became spititual mentor of Prophet Muhammad? Rashidah wrote," she was Abu Talib's Hujjat. Prophet received spiritual knowledge from Bibi before progressing to stage of receiving it directly from Abu Talib." But at that time Imam was Hazrat Abu Talib, when Imam is present and active in same area pir is always SAMIT.
I don't think Quranic verses mentioned in favor of Bibi in this article were descended particularly for her.
Can any one believe she possessed 80,000 camels! Were that number of camels available in Mecca at that time with population of around 12000 to 15000. It is exaggerated statement.
Rashidah has used pro Fatimi and post Fatimi Ismaili philosophy pattern by Dai Idris, Al Kirmani, Al Mued, and Nasir Khusraw to prove her point, which you have couple of times in your postings dubbed 1000 years back philosophy which is not applicable in modern times i.e The philosophy of Huddud e Din and so on. WHO IS HUDD NOWADAYS? When Hazrat Abu Talib was still alive I do not think there was need of inducing any third person to up lift Prophet's spiritually. Prophet was by birth Prophet sent on special mission by Allah and was Rahmah for whole mankind. This is a kind of reducing status of Prophet.
Rashidah wrote, Waraqah ben Nawfal her cousin was a Dai. Hisroty proved that he refused to become Muslim and remained Christian till his end.
Rashidah wrote, the line of permanent Imamat worked SECRETLY!! Why so secrecy any death threats. TILL TODAY ISMAILISM IS RUN UNDER SECRET CARPET BY LEADERS, where as Hazar Imam has urged murids to be open and open minded in RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS.
Rashidah wrote, Islam started to progress from here (Bibi) and became a universal religion. But Islam is from very beginning as Allah said in Quran, indeed the Din near Allah is ISLAM.

[Admin]

CAN WE CALL KIZ AS A PIR? A COMPILATION OF FARMANS.

Not only KIZ but also the Golden Edition can be called Pir if Imam tell us to call it Pir.

The Asal Dua named Pir Pandiyat Jawanmardi as Pir. The version of the Asal Dua before this one was given to us by the Imam, and recited in several Jamatkhana in the presence of the Imam by Pir Shiabuddin Shah. Our Imam e Zaman of that time made a Farman to several Jamats saying: Recite the Dua as Pir Shiabuddin Shah will now recite to you in my presence.

So my question to you is again: When the Imam has spoken, who are you to say Pir Pandiyat was or was not a Pir? Are you considering yourself higher than the Imam or are you just uneducated in some of the subject you persist to discuss?

[kmaherali]

But historically there are gaps in Avtars means planet was without a pir also.

At all times the Imam is also the Pir and that is why he is GurNar and ShahPir. At times he keeps the position of Piratan to himself as at present and at other times he appoints someone else to perform the role. Nevertheless the Pir is always present.

[kmaherali]

You wrote," The Prophet was addressing the Ummah which comprises the Shia and the Sunni." My question to you, Are the Ismailis not a part of UMMAH?.

The Ummah is a diversity of intepretations. The Shia intepretation is different than the Sunnis.

You asked me if I am a Shia or not........? Personally I am above Shia/Sunni conflict. At time of Prophet there were no Shia or Sunni grouping. I respect all religions even atheists..

Good to know that, hence I will modify my asertion: According to Shia intepretation the Imams are also Ahl al-Bayt.
My question to you is that, if you are not a Shia or Sunni then why do you make fuss about the meaning of Ali-ullah because you are not supposed to recite Dua anyway? Dua is only meant for Ismailis?

Regarding Prophet being a Satpunthi pir, I have requested you people to visit and check archaic and old files at ITREB Karachi or Mumbai. Check the classified files. There had been a discussion in early 50's on Prophet being a pir or not and other issues. Reports were sent to MSMS and in my opinion after lengthy discussions list of pirs was not included in new Du'a decided by Imam. From 1951 to July 1957, MSMS made many changes. Prophethood is above piratan.
Can you name some other Prophets being pirs for my information.

As far as I know, the list of the Pirs mentioned by Pir Sadardeen was valid until the Old Dua was changed to New Dua.

I have no knowledge of the positions of other Prophets with respect to our Tariqah, but I do know that Pirs were either the Imams themselves or those appointed by him and Piratan is continuous and eternal whereas Prophethood is incidental according to the needs of the time and not continuous. Hence Piratan is superior.

[kmaherali]

According to history Bibi Khadijah's birth year is 555 AD or 567 AD. According to Shi'i traditions at time of her marriage to Prophet, she was of same age as of Prophet that is 24/25 years. She was not divorced and her only marriage was with Prophet Muhammad. Her only children from Prophet were Hazrat Qasim and Bibi Fatimah..

It is a generally accepted fact by all historians that I have read about, that Bibi Khadija was 15 years older than Muhammad. What you are saying contradicts all history!

Ismailis believe God created Noor e Ali and Noor e Muhammadi in primordial time. No where it is mentioned in any history or tradition books that God Created Noor e Ali and Noor e Bibi Khadijah, THEN how come Bibi became spititual mentor of Prophet Muhammad? Rashidah wrote," she was Abu Talib's Hujjat. Prophet received spiritual knowledge from Bibi before progressing to stage of receiving it directly from Abu Talib." But at that time Imam was Hazrat Abu Talib, when Imam is present and active in same area pir is always SAMIT..

The Noor that was in Bibi Khadija was also the same Noor in the Prophet. We call it Noor-e-Muhammadi because the Prophet is universally accepted by all Tariqahs which accept the notion of Noor. Bibi Khadija was not uiversally accepted as the bearer of Noor and hence we don't call the Noor the Noor-e-Khadija although as Ismailis we can do so if we chose to do so.
Imams are always active and they have various roles, Piratan being one of them. He appoints other members as his Hujjats as and when he deems appropriate to do so. When he appoints someone else to perform the role of Piratan, he himself does not perform it.

Rashidah wrote, the line of permanent Imamat worked SECRETLY!! Why so secrecy any death threats.

Sometimes our faith is understood and sometimes it is misunderstood and hence can create problems in society. Therefore secrecy was the best approach. MSMS in his Memoirs states:

"Often persecuted and oppressed, the faith of my ancestors was never destroyed; at times it flourished as in the epoch of the Fatimite Khalifs, at times it was obscure and little understood."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

[ismaili103]

Please note I have mentioned potential Imam or would be Imam.
How will you solve assertion of Mr. 103.

Whenn Hazrat Abu Talib was Imam, Mowla Ali was not Imam. It's simple as that. Just like when Imam Dashrat was alive his son Imam Ram was also alive, but when Imam Dashrat was Imam, Ram was not Imam.

But historically there are gaps in Avtars means planet was without a pir also

It's good for you if you only discuss about qasidas and Quran, because you don't know anything about core concepts of ismailism which are dasavatars etc.

10 avatar doesn't mean there were only 10 Imam. Mowla Ali is 10th manifestation and it doesn't mean that after him there is no Imam, there are total of 48 Imam after Mowla Ali. So the difference between Imam budh and Imam Ali is 7000 years but it doesn't mean there are only 2 Imam's in between 7000 yrs, Noor e Imamat transfer by nass so after Imam Budh, his noor transfer into Imam shish then Imam Shem and now in Hazir Imam.

[shivaathervedi]

Please note I have mentioned potential Imam or would be Imam.
How will you solve assertion of Mr. 103.

Whenn Hazrat Abu Talib was Imam, Mowla Ali was not Imam. It's simple as that. Just like when Imam Dashrat was alive his son Imam Ram was also alive, but when Imam Dashrat was Imam, Ram was not Imam.

But historically there are gaps in Avtars means planet was without a pir also

It's good for you if you only discuss about qasidas and Quran, because you don't know anything about core concepts of ismailism which are dasavatars etc.

10 avatar doesn't mean there were only 10 Imam. Mowla Ali is 10th manifestation and it doesn't mean that after him there is no Imam, there are total of 48 Imam after Mowla Ali. So the difference between Imam budh and Imam Ali is 7000 years but it doesn't mean there are only 2 Imam's in between 7000 yrs, Noor e Imamat transfer by nass so after Imam Budh, his noor transfer into Imam shish then Imam Shem and now in Hazir Imam.

JITHEY DI KHOTI UTHEY AAN KHILOTI
My question wasn't about Dus Awtar, how come this pop up here. What was role of Mowla Ali during life time of Hazrat Abu Talib as Imam? Ali was by birth Imam or as you people say Allah, so Allah of that time was silent doing nothing.
Karachi walo Eid ka tuhfa, Dashrat father of Ram was also imam.
AAP ka husn e Karishma, jise chaho pakar ke imam banalo. Wah Bhai Wah.
By the way you people are running away from Quran, though 'ALI IS WITH QURAN AND QURAN IS WITH ALI'.

[shivaathervedi]

CAN WE CALL KIZ AS A PIR? A COMPILATION OF FARMANS.

Not only KIZ but also the Golden Edition can be called Pir if Imam tell us to call it Pir.

The Asal Dua named Pir Pandiyat Jawanmardi as Pir. The version of the Asal Dua before this one was given to us by the Imam, and recited in several Jamatkhana in the presence of the Imam by Pir Shiabuddin Shah. Our Imam e Zaman of that time made a Farman to several Jamats saying: Recite the Dua as Pir Shiabuddin Shah will now recite to you in my presence.

So my question to you is again: When the Imam has spoken, who are you to say Pir Pandiyat was or was not a Pir? Are you considering yourself higher than the Imam or are you just uneducated in some of the subject you persist to discuss?

As I wrote before in one of my post that you pick a sentence out of context and start beating the bush. You should have taken my whole paragraph and answered me.
I did not refuted Pindyat as Pir. I just wrote it was a compilation of Farmudaat of Imam compiled by a murid which was given status of Pir. Simultaneously I asked you," which Imam gave status of Pir to Pindiyat, Imam Mustansirbillah second or Imam mustansirbillah third." You disappeared that portion may be you thought it was a TRAP.
Regarding reciting of Du'a by Pir Shahbudin, MSMS knew jamaitis were making plenty of mistakes while reciting Du'a because the jamaits Kachhi, Gujrati speaking were not pronouncing the Persian and Arabic Kalimat properly, hence meaning changed. So Pir Shahbudin's recitation was a kind of role model and practice. Look what is happening now a days in recitation of new Du'a. Scores of mistakes are being made, if I were a Mukhi should not have allowed such kind of reciters to lead jamaits. With wrong recitation MEANING is changed.
According to you I may be uneducated BUT still I am trying to educate you people.
By the way you were in background of KIZ, it can't be a Pir, wishful thinking!

[Admin]

Please stop beating around the bush The Bush era is gone.

You always mix umpteen subjects and when people reply to one of the specific subjects you say it is taken out of context.

You can not even read English simple sentence as the one I wrote about KIZ and GE.

Here is the sentence again. Not only KIZ but also the Golden Edition can be called Pir if Imam tell us to call it Pir.

I repeat, ANY book which our Imam appoint as Pir will be recognised as Pir by all Haqiqati Ismailis. We do not force non-Ismaiis and anti-Ismaili to follow our beliefs in the Imam.

[ismaili103]

JITHEY DI KHOTI UTHEY AAN KHILOTI
My question wasn't about Dus Awtar, how come this pop up here. What was role of Mowla Ali during life time of Hazrat Abu Talib as Imam? Ali was by birth Imam or as you people say Allah, so Allah of that time was silent doing nothing.
Karachi walo Eid ka tuhfa, Dashrat father of Ram was also imam.
AAP ka husn e Karishma, jise chaho pakar ke imam banalo. Wah Bhai Wah.
By the way you people are running away from Quran, though 'ALI IS WITH QURAN AND QURAN IS WITH ALI'.

Every ismaili on earth use to recite name of Imam Dashrat in there gathpat dua for 800 years including your Dada and Par Dada.


shri farsiram ( 6th avatar )

32. roog, 33 . noog, 34 . ju jeaat, 35. kumbra,
36. alif, 3 7 . ajepaal, 38. Dashrat

Shri ram ( 7th avatar)

Ali is bolta Quran.
Usmani Quran is a book full of contradiction.

You are running away from real quran( Imam ) and believing in some dead Allama who claimed to be fake Imam.

[/quote]