first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[zznoor]

You missed this at the bottom of photo souvenir

The AGA KHAN is the Devine link with ADAM!

The AGA KHAN is The lineal descendent of Prophet MUHAMMAD

The AGA KHAN is The MANIFESTATION of LORD VISNU

And now he is The MANIFESTATION of Allah

Astaghfirullah

[shivaathervedi]

You wrote in Satpunthi tradition the Imam is at all time pir and Imam, then why we keep counting numbers of pirs. At present Imam is Shah and Pir then where is that concept of link or rope.

I think the reason we count the number of Pirs is that Piratan is an important concept in our tradition. It is they who interpret the faith and provide guidance. In significant part of our history, there have been functioning Pirs other than the Imam and hence it is of interest to know who they were and their activities and teachings through Ginans.

Pirs are not ordinary humans, they are divine like the Imams. MSMS remarked that Pir Sadardeen will always be alive as long as his Ginans are recited.

Yes Piratan is an important Ismaili tradition but in status institution of piratan is not equal to institution of Imamat. Imam is higher than a pir.
Pir Sadardin will always be alive as long as his Ginans are recited; if we stop reciting his Ginans means he will be forgotten as he is seldom remembered in Central Asian Jamaits or China jamaits, or Arab jamaits. Every great poet is alive because of his poetry.
Shakespeare is remembered because of his sonnets and poetry, same way Rumi, Hafiz, jami, Khayam, Shah Latif, Sachal, Galib, Iqbal are alive because of their poetry.

[shivaathervedi]

Partial Gods in making, in pipe line are potential Gods. Good we are learning new terminologies and further confusing readers and youth. Even after fana that potential God who is Aql e Juz can't be Aql e Kul.

What is so confusing? Isn't the purpose of life to become Fanna Fi Allah. What happens when one becomes Fanna?

Consider the Farmans:

"Tame amara jeava thao"

Become like us.

"Mowla Aly noe mojijo ae hato ke potani jagyae pochade"

The miracle of Hazarat Ali was to enable you to reach his destination.

The following verse of seeharfee also alludes to this.

keett bhamareekaa tame dekho khelaa
esaa paayaa gur su(n) chelaa.....................................10

Meaning - Look at the relationship between a worm (larva) and a bee. When a worm(larva) endures the leaking of a bee, it is transformed into the nature of the bee. Similarly when a disciple rigorously follows the guide, he is transformed into the nature of the Guide, i.e. becomes Divine himself[/quote


Yes the purpose of life of a momin/sufi is to be one with Allah, this does not mean he/she will become Allah. Allah will not give the password of KALIMA E KUN TO ANY ONE. You missed the second part of my paragraph reads," Even after fana the potential god who is aql e juz can't be aql e kul."
You quoted a farman ,I am also quoting a farman;
Translation: " UNTIL A PERSON IS ALIVE IN THIS WORLD HE CAN'T GET THE WATER OF NOOR...." MSMS, Ruhani Roshani farman booklet.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
there is nothing to be shy if Imam is shown as ALI (avaatar of diffrent Yug).
And ALI as God .that defines a Haqiqati.
the circumstances and boldness of it may be looked at different angles.
relating ALI with xyz can be thing of 1935 but to break and know the truth
from one cardinal word will fashion,belief and faith of the future.
my conviction stays put till eternity.
past was age pf tariqat and haqiqat and now onwards will be of haqiqat and marifat.
ALI+LAH=Allah.
I may put MHI foto with my understanding next year Jubilee.
world need to fear ALI and other way around.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad.
there is nothing to be shy if Imam is shown as ALI (avaatar of diffrent Yug).
And ALI as God .that defines a Haqiqati.
the circumstances and boldness of it may be looked at different angles.
relating ALI with xyz can be thing of 1935 but to break and know the truth
from one cardinal word will fashion,belief and faith of the future.
my conviction stays put till eternity.
past was age pf tariqat and haqiqat and now onwards will be of haqiqat and marifat.
ALI+LAH=Allah.
I may put MHI foto with my understanding next year Jubilee.
world need to fear ALI and other way around.

But you shy to equate MSMS with Jesus Christ. No Haqiqati or Mairifati fantastic words on comparison of Imam and Christ. Are they both same AVTARS?
You know what, put your foto next to Imam during next year Jubilee and you will be considered also an AVTAR. ( in your previous posts you had rejected avtars ).

[Admin]

If you look Light through a prism, you will see all the colors. All of them are included in the Light. But if your vision is handicapped by yellow glasses or if your vision is impaired and faulty, you will only see darkness. The problem is not with the Light, it is with your own self.

The world may be sorry for you but it does not change the darkness. This does not apply to anyone specific.

It is a general statement. But anyone feels that the hat fits his head, please wear it by no means.

[kmaherali]

Yes the purpose of life of a momin/sufi is to be one with Allah, this does not mean he/she will become Allah. Allah will not give the password of KALIMA E KUN TO ANY ONE. You missed the second part of my paragraph reads," Even after fana the potential god who is aql e juz can't be aql e kul."
You quoted a farman ,I am also quoting a farman;
Translation: " UNTIL A PERSON IS ALIVE IN THIS WORLD HE CAN'T GET THE WATER OF NOOR...." MSMS, Ruhani Roshani farman booklet.

We have been through this before. There is another Farman which states:

"Live in this world, and while living in this world, do good deeds. A momin can also be in union with the Ultimate in this world." (Dar es Salaam, Mar 9, 1925)

I think the reason why the Imam said we cannot be completely one with Allah in this life is that those who have achieved Union should not disclose it to others. Also if so and so says he has attained it we must not believe it. It is a personal matter.

Otherwise the one in Union has all the powers of Allah. You may continue with the discussion on the following threads:

can humans BE God?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... god+mansur

Defy physics?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... fy+physics

Role of Miracles in Esoteric Traditions.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=332

[kmaherali]

And now he is The MANIFESTATION of Allah

Astaghfirullah

Yes according to our interpretation he is the Hujjah of Allah as mentioned in the Qur'an.

Who is the Hujjah according to your understanding/interpretation?

[shivaathervedi]

If you look Light through a prism, you will see all the colors. All of them are included in the Light. But if your vision is handicapped by yellow glasses or if your vision is impaired and faulty, you will only see darkness. The problem is not with the Light, it is with your own self.

The world may be sorry for you but it does not change the darkness. This does not apply to anyone specific.

It is a general statement. But anyone feels that the hat fits his head, please wear it by no means.

But darkness also include all colors and if some one's vision is impaired still he can see darkness, Oops.
Have you ever heard of DARK NOOR?

[shivaathervedi]

Yes the purpose of life of a momin/sufi is to be one with Allah, this does not mean he/she will become Allah. Allah will not give the password of KALIMA E KUN TO ANY ONE. You missed the second part of my paragraph reads," Even after fana the potential god who is aql e juz can't be aql e kul."
You quoted a farman ,I am also quoting a farman;
Translation: " UNTIL A PERSON IS ALIVE IN THIS WORLD HE CAN'T GET THE WATER OF NOOR...." MSMS, Ruhani Roshani farman booklet.

We have been through this before. There is another Farman which states:

"Live in this world, and while living in this world, do good deeds. A momin can also be in union with the Ultimate in this world." (Dar es Salaam, Mar 9, 1925)

I think the reason why the Imam said we cannot be completely one with Allah in this life is that those who have achieved Union should not disclose it to others. Also if so and so says he has attained it we must not believe it. It is a personal matter.

Otherwise the one in Union has all the powers of Allah. You may continue with the discussion on the following threads:

can humans BE God?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... god+mansur

Defy physics?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... fy+physics

Role of Miracles in Esoteric Traditions.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=332

So what we conclude, there is contradiction in statements. Let me complete that farman which I quoted; " Until a person is alive in this world he can't get the water of Noor because may be after 20/30/40 years he becomes arrogant and start bad deeds and sins and become like SHAITAN..."
" NOOR IS NOT YOURS TO BE TAKEN IT IS YOURS TO BE GIVEN." HAZAR IMAM. Example of Moses. To be one with ALLAH is not a guaranty to get PASS WORD OF KALAM E KUN.

[shivaathervedi]

And now he is The MANIFESTATION of Allah

Astaghfirullah

Yes according to our interpretation he is the Hujjah of Allah as mentioned in the Qur'an.

Who is the Hujjah according to your understanding/interpretation?

Hujjat of who? That is Allah as you wrote, and these are two different entities.

[kmaherali]

Hujjat of who? That is Allah as you wrote, and these are two different entities.

From the Zaher there are two entities as per Qur'an. From the Batin there is only one for the Jamat. You have to keep this Zaher/Batin combo foremost in dealing with an esoteric tradition.

[kmaherali]

So what we conclude, there is contradiction in statements. Let me complete that farman which I quoted; " Until a person is alive in this world he can't get the water of Noor because may be after 20/30/40 years he becomes arrogant and start bad deeds and sins and become like SHAITAN..."
" NOOR IS NOT YOURS TO BE TAKEN IT IS YOURS TO BE GIVEN." HAZAR IMAM. Example of Moses. To be one with ALLAH is not a guaranty to get PASS WORD OF KALAM E KUN.

The present Imam in his Farman has indicated that if one is successful in BUK there will be only light towards the end of life.

*****

(London, Aug 6th 1994).

--------------

Note from Admin:

Quote removed by Admin

BK Farman quotes unquote are not allowed. Giving the gist is OK.

[shivaathervedi]

Hujjat of who? That is Allah as you wrote, and these are two different entities.

From the Zaher there are two entities as per Qur'an. From the Batin there is only one for the Jamat. You have to keep this Zaher/Batin combo foremost in dealing with an esoteric tradition.

You wrote," From Batin there is only one for the JAMAIT."
Only for our JAMAIT !!! What about other human beings and creations?
We are all from Him, therefore according to Batin He is me and I am Him as you are Him and He is you. Isn't it?

[Admin]

Hujjat of who? That is Allah as you wrote, and these are two different entities.

From the Zaher there are two entities as per Qur'an. From the Batin there is only one for the Jamat. You have to keep this Zaher/Batin combo foremost in dealing with an esoteric tradition.

You wrote," From Batin there is only one for the JAMAIT."
Only for our JAMAIT !!! What about other human beings and creations?
We are all from Him, therefore according to Batin He is me and I am Him as you are Him and He is you. Isn't it?

This discussion has to stop here. This has nothing to do with the thread and the Forum should not become an indiscipline place like a fish market.

You are choosing one thread and bringing in all kind of subject and I will have to shut down this thread because it has nothing to do now with the Ismaili Constitution's Preamble. Why can't you just post in the appropriate thread?

[kmaherali]

You wrote," From Batin there is only one for the JAMAIT."
Only for our JAMAIT !!! What about other human beings and creations?
We are all from Him, therefore according to Batin He is me and I am Him as you are Him and He is you. Isn't it?

As I have telling you, there is afundamental difference between an esoteric tradition and and exoteric tradition. MHI explained the difference in one of his Farmans and I posted it here. I can't keep posting it over and over.

To his Jamat, he is the Mursheed who has to be obeyed. For others he is just a leader of a sect and not to be obeyed. Hence there must be a difference in the understanding of the Qur'an for the Murids and others. As per Farman the meaning is for the Jamat not for others.

If we are from Him, it does not imply we are him, unless we become him through Ibadat.

[kmaherali]

This discussion has to stop here. This has nothing to do with the thread and the Forum should not become an indiscipline place like a fish market.

You are choosing one thread and bringing in all kind of subject and I will have to shut down this thread because it has nothing to do now with the Ismaili Constitution's Preamble. Why can't you just post in the appropriate thread?

The discussion about the zaher and the batin has everything to do with this thread. This person wants us to adopt the understanding of the constitution which is a zaheri document.

Hence we have to keep impressing upon him the distinction between the zaher and the batin until he finally gets it.

[Admin]

Hence we have to keep impressing upon him the distinction between the zaher and the batin until he finally gets it.

No, I would not be surprised that he is here with an agenda. He knows the difference but wants to create problems for Ismailis. Therefore he should not be encouraged to debate this issue in this thread.

There are plenty of threads for various subjects that he has discussed in this one from Aliyullah to Dua to Imamat to zahir to shariat to practically everything and anything for which there are other appropriate threads where he could have discussed or where these subjects have been previously already been discussed and concluded.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
With the will of ALI( inshallah).
I may wish before my death or in next life to shoe the
Face of MHI/ALI with buddha on the left and krishna of the level hinting to ALI as the tenth manifestation.
with 2 main prophet below the MHI face on left and looking upward to him
Jesus Christ with word spiritual father GOD ELI/ALI. and of Mohammed
with ALI+Lah +Allah. both with their hands up and praying to MHI/ALI.
by then vast majority would be non religious and 80% of those religious may belong to Buddism,Hindus,Chiritanity and Islam.
That would be absolute truth which world will come to know.
I personally feel if this image if kept as wall paper in moblie phone for 40 days,something very good/great can happen to that person.
carring & seeing his name and image is blessings by itself.

nothing to loose but all to gain.
DARR KA ZAMANA GAYAA .

Admin are you ready to carry this proposed picture on the site in Future?

[Admin]

Admin are you ready to carry this proposed picture on the site in Future?

Your post is misplaced. Rewrite it in the Jubilee section under Memorabilia and you will get an answer. The post will be deleted in few days from this thread. Your post has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. As I said, we need some discipline in posting.

[shivaathervedi]

You wrote," From Batin there is only one for the JAMAIT."
Only for our JAMAIT !!! What about other human beings and creations?
We are all from Him, therefore according to Batin He is me and I am Him as you are Him and He is you. Isn't it?

As I have telling you, there is afundamental difference between an esoteric tradition and and exoteric tradition. MHI explained the difference in one of his Farmans and I posted it here. I can't keep posting it over and over.

To his Jamat, he is the Mursheed who has to be obeyed. For others he is just a leader of a sect and not to be obeyed. Hence there must be a difference in the understanding of the Qur'an for the Murids and others. As per Farman the meaning is for the Jamat not for others.

If we are from Him, it does not imply we are him, unless we become him through Ibadat.

You wrote," If we are from Him, it does not imply we are Him, unless we become Him through ibadat." You have used the word "IF" means it is assumed by you, where as I say sure we are from Him. Now other portion of your quote," unless we become Him through ibadat." I would say, we become Him through Noor e Ali, ( the intercessor ) without his ultimate powers.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
With the will of ALI( inshallah).
I may wish before my death or in next life to shoe the
Face of MHI/ALI with buddha on the left and krishna of the level hinting to ALI as the tenth manifestation.
with 2 main prophet below the MHI face on left and looking upward to him
Jesus Christ with word spiritual father GOD ELI/ALI. and of Mohammed
with ALI+Lah +Allah. both with their hands up and praying to MHI/ALI.
by then vast majority would be non religious and 80% of those religious may belong to Buddism,Hindus,Chiritanity and Islam.
That would be absolute truth which world will come to know.
I personally feel if this image if kept as wall paper in moblie phone for 40 days,something very good/great can happen to that person.
carring & seeing his name and image is blessings by itself.

nothing to loose but all to gain.
DARR KA ZAMANA GAYAA .

Admin are you ready to carry this proposed picture on the site in Future?

Spiritual congratulations you wrote INSHA ALLAH and not INSHA ALI.
Please quote the Surah and ayat # which mentions your imaginary formula alilah. I have posted before that al ilah ( ali lah ) was the name of an idol placed in Ka'ba before Islam, and you know well Ali was born inside Ka'ba. WADHEL KUCHH HOSH KEY NAKHUN LO.
Najumi Baba writes, we make amalgam of religious avtars upwards down and downwards up to create images of holy fathers and keep in wall paper of mobile for 40 days and get kaliyan.
Baba jai ho, I got kaliyan and saw image of you with laathi in one hand and lotta in other.

[shivaathervedi]

ADMIN:

I would like you to unlock the threads ' Hindu mythology and Terminologies', 'Recycling of souls' and 'Quran as mentioned in Preamble'. There is lots of informative and innovative material ready to entertain the readers of this forum.
Or as you like I shall start new threads, thanks.

[Admin]

The problem is that whatever the thread you write in, you have a tendency to post on any subject without respect to the thread. If you want to continue this tradition of yours, I can not open any of those threads.

Any thread that had mixed subject becomes useless for the future generations. Any subject that is clogged with different topics spanning 50 pages will not be read and will not be used by future generations.

[shivaathervedi]

Why Bibi Zainab, Bibi Umm e Kulsum, and Hazrat Muhsin are not included in PUNJTAN PAAK though they were also children of Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatimah?

[Admin]

Why Bibi Zainab, Bibi Umm e Kulsum, and Hazrat Muhsin are not included in PUNJTAN PAAK though they were also children of Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatimah?

Put your question in the appropriate thread on Panj Tan Pak or Ahl e Bait

[kmaherali]

Put your question in the appropriate thread on Panj Tan Pak or Ahl e Bait

It would be much helpfu to provide the link as well:

Hadiths about Hazrat Ali,Ahl-e-Bait,PanjtanPaak
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... adiths+ahl

[shivaathervedi]

Why Bibi Zainab, Bibi Umm e Kulsum, and Hazrat Muhsin are not included in PUNJTAN PAAK though they were also children of Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatimah?

Put your question in the appropriate thread on Panj Tan Pak or Ahl e Bait

Go to Kharadar, go to Garden, go to Karimabad, go to Nizari, go to this thread, go to that thread; dorra dorra ke kia bachey ki jaan logey, Hiyyan jawab dou.You are also an intellectual of Heritage please answer here. This above question is related to Noor e Imamt through Preamble.

[Admin]

Why Bibi Zainab, Bibi Umm e Kulsum, and Hazrat Muhsin are not included in PUNJTAN PAAK though they were also children of Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatimah?

Put your question in the appropriate thread on Panj Tan Pak or Ahl e Bait

Go to Kharadar, go to Garden, go to Karimabad, go to Nizari, go to this thread, go to that thread; dorra dorra ke kia bachey ki jaan logey, Hiyyan jawab dou.You are also an intellectual of Heritage please answer here. This above question is related to Noor e Imamt through Preamble.

Everything is related to everything in your mind. You are not going to make a mess of this Forum. Post in appropriate thread. This is why we have threads.

[shivaathervedi]

Put your question in the appropriate thread on Panj Tan Pak or Ahl e Bait

Go to Kharadar, go to Garden, go to Karimabad, go to Nizari, go to this thread, go to that thread; dorra dorra ke kia bachey ki jaan logey, Hiyyan jawab dou.You are also an intellectual of Heritage please answer here. This above question is related to Noor e Imamt through Preamble.

Everything is related to everything in your mind. You are not going to make a mess of this Forum. Post in appropriate thread. This is why we have threads.

You should not have deleted my reply to Kmaherali, well I am moving the question to Punjtan paak, let us see who is going to answer properly.