Hindu Mythology and Indian Terminology / Civilisations

[Admin]

QALAM in Ismaili literature is Universal Intellect or NOOR E MUHAMMADI.

LOH is Universal Soul or NOOR E ALI.

You are mistaken.It may be so in some Ismaili Literature, not in Alamut and post Alamut period. UNless you are refering for the Alamut period to the literature of Mustalian Ismailis and not the Nizari Ismailis

Noor e Ali does not originate from Noor e Muhammad. In fact it is the opposite. When there was no Loh and no Qalam, the Noor of Ali was there. So you will have to find some other interpretation to Loh and Qalam

[kmaherali]

English translation of the Gugri Ginans 9 and 10 below.

NINTH GHUGRI GINAN BY SYED IMAM SHAH

JIREY BHAI AMRAPURI AGAL EEK GHUGRI JO BHANDHI
TENU TEJ TOU CHHEY APAAR JIREY BHAI

O brother! Ahead of the eternal abode there is tied a gugri. It's luminous intensity is unlimited.

JIREY BHAI TE GHUGRI NEECHEY EEK KURSI JO RAAKHI
TIYAA(N) HURAU(N) CHHEY HAJAAR JIREY BHAI

O brother! Beneath the gugri a chair is kept, where there are thousands of nymphs (houris).

JIREY BHAI HURAU(N) KAY HAATH MA(N)HE NOOR KANCHOLA
TE UBHI ARDAAS MAANGEY JIREY BHAI

O brother! In the hands of the nymphs (houris) are vessels of light. They are entreating while standing.

JIREY BHAI MARAT LOK MA(N)HE JEY KOI TRUNN TAANNA JAAGEY
TE HURAA(N) TENI JOEIY CHHEY WAATT JIREY BHAI

O brother! In this mortal world, those who are awake during three times (of prayers), these nymphs await them.

JIREY BHAI BHANEY SYED IMAM SHAH AMEY HURAA(N) JO DITHI
TENEY NOOR KANCHOLA CHHEY HAATH JIREY BHAI.

O brother! Sayyed Imam Shah teaches: "I have seen the nymphs; in their hands are vessels of light".

------------------------------------------------------
TENTH GHUGRI GINAN BY SYED IMAM SHAH


JIREY BHAI AMRAPURI AGAL EEK GHUGRI JO BHANDHI
TENU TEJ JALKAY APAAR JIREY BHAI

O brother! Ahead of the eternal abode there is tied a gugri.It's light shines with unlimited intensity.

JIREY BHAI TENI JALKAAR SAATEY AASMAAN SUJHEY
ANEY DEVTA SIR NAMEEY JIREY BHAI

O brother!By it's radiance, the seven heavens are visible and the angels are prostrating in front of it.

JIREY BHAI GHUGRI NEECHEY TOU MALAIK RAHWEY
TE TOU KAREY CHHEY SHAH SU(N) WAAT JIREY BHAI

O brother! Beneath the gugri,reside the angels who converse with the Imam.

JIREY BHAI UNN KAY PAAS EEK SANGHASON RAKHIYAA
UNNU(N) KA TEJ APAAR JIREY BHAI

O brother! In it's vicinity there is placed a (royal) throne; it's luminous intensity is limitless.

JIREY BHAI UNNU(N) KAY AAGEY PECHHEY HURAA(N) JO KHARIYA
TE TOU KAREY CHHEY SHAH SU(N) ARDAAS JIREY BHAI

O brother! It is surrounded by standing nymphs who are entreating the Imam.

JIREY BHAI MARAT LOK MA(N)HE JE NAARI AAPAJ RAKHEY
TE HURAA(N) TENI JUEIY CHHEY WAATT JIREY BHAI

O brother! In this mortal plane of existence, the woman who controls herself, these nymphs await her.

JIREY BHAI BHANEY SYED IMAM SHAH AMEY SACHUJ KAHWEY
TE NAARI TOU HURAA(N) MA(N)HE BHALSEY JIREY BHAI

O brother! Sayyed Imam Shah teaches: "I speak only the truth, that woman will blend in with the nymphs."

[kmaherali]

QALAM in Ismaili literature is Universal Intellect or NOOR E MUHAMMADI.

LOH is Universal Soul or NOOR E ALI.

Who is the manifestation of QALAM today?

[kmaherali]

KUMBH MELA

Paramahansa Yogananda visited the Kumbh Mela and describes it and it's significance in the context of the spritual life and soul of India in his autobiography:

"Our party reached the Kumbha Mela on January 23, 1936. The surging crowd of nearly two million persons was an impressive sight, even an overwhelming one. The peculiar genius of the Indian people is the reverence innate in even the lowliest peasant for the worth of the Spirit, and for the monks and sadhus who have forsaken worldly ties to seek a diviner anchorage. Imposters and hypocrites there are indeed, but India respects all for the sake of the few who illumine the whole land with supernal blessings. Westerners who were viewing the vast spectacle had a unique opportunity to feel the pulse of the land, the spiritual ardor to which India owes her quenchless vitality before the blows of time.

The first day was spent by our group in sheer staring. Here were countless bathers, dipping in the holy river for remission of sins; there we saw solemn rituals of worship; yonder were devotional offerings being strewn at the dusty feet of saints; a turn of our heads, and a line of elephants, caparisoned horses and slow-paced Rajputana camels filed by, or a quaint religious parade of naked sadhus, waving scepters of gold and silver, or flags and streamers of silken velvet."

More...
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap42.php

[shivaathervedi]

QALAM in Ismaili literature is Universal Intellect or NOOR E MUHAMMADI.

LOH is Universal Soul or NOOR E ALI.

You are mistaken.It may be so in some Ismaili Literature, not in Alamut and post Alamut period. UNless you are refering for the Alamut period to the literature of Mustalian Ismailis and not the Nizari Ismailis

Noor e Ali does not originate from Noor e Muhammad. In fact it is the opposite. When there was no Loh and no Qalam, the Noor of Ali was there. So you will have to find some other interpretation to Loh and Qalam

I think you are of view that post Alamout Ismaili and satpanthi literature is correct and pro Alamout period literature is of no value or Fatimid era literature is fake or useless. What you have to say about the contributions of Qadi No'aman and his son, Hamiduddin Kirmani, Almoed Shirazi, Nasir Khusraw or before that da'i Idris and others.
You wrote," Noor e Ali does not originated from Noor e Muhammad", my question to you, " Do you believe in Hadith, ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID? mentioned in many Ismaili books and bulletins published by Ismailia Associations and ITERB." Is this hadith fake?

[shivaathervedi]

QALAM in Ismaili literature is Universal Intellect or NOOR E MUHAMMADI.

LOH is Universal Soul or NOOR E ALI.

Who is the manifestation of QALAM today?

Who is manifestation of LOH today?
ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID. (hadith e Nabawi)

[shivaathervedi]

Key Terms in Hinduism:

atman: Hindu concept of the eternal soul
avatar: Hindu concept of the incarnation or earthly manifestation of a deity
Bhagavad-Gita: Sanskrit for 'Song of the Lord'; this text is regarded as the crowning achievement of Hindu sacred literature
bhakti: Hindu concept of devotional service to a personal god. Bhakti-yoga is one of the principal paths to liberation taught in Hinduism.
Brahma: Hindu god of creation
Brahman: Hindu concept for the spiritual oneness of all reality
Brahmin: Priestly caste of Indian society
caste: literally means, 'race'; the stratified system of social classes in traditional Hindu society
guru: in Hinduism, refers to a spiritual teacher
jiva: in Hinduism, refers to the physical/psychological/social 'self' which acts, but which is not eternal
Krishna: Incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu, who appears as a main character in the Bhagavad-Gita
maya: Hindu concept of false or illusory reality
meditation: focused, disciplined concentration intended to enable experience of the sacred
moksha: release from the cycle of death and rebirth in Indian religions; liberation
samsara: Sanskrit for 'the cycle of rebirth'
Shiva: Hindu god of destruction and rejuvenation
untouchables: in traditional Hindu society, those 'below' the caste system, and thus not embers of any of the four castes. Also called 'outcasts.' Mahatma Gandhi called the untouchables harijan, which means 'children of God.'
Upanishads: Philosophical materials in the Vedic literature
Vedas: literally means, 'knowledge'; applies to the entire collection of Indian sacred literature, including the Upanishads
Vishnu: Hindu god of preservation and love; appears on earth on verious forms (avatars) in times of crisis

[kmaherali]

I think you are of view that post Alamout Ismaili and satpanthi literature is correct and pro Alamout period literature is of no value or Fatimid era literature is fake or useless. What you have to say about the contributions of Qadi No'aman and his son, Hamiduddin Kirmani, Almoed Shirazi, Nasir Khusraw or before that da'i Idris and others.
You wrote," Noor e Ali does not originated from Noor e Muhammad", my question to you, " Do you believe in Hadith, ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID? mentioned in many Ismaili books and bulletins published by Ismailia Associations and ITERB." Is this hadith fake?

According to Ginans the Imam is the Shahpir or Gurnar. At all times he is both the Imam - the object of worship and the Pir - the bearer of the Noor responsible for guidance and interpretation of faith. At times as at present the Imam performs both roles. In the past he designated the role of Piratan to another member of Ahl al-Bayt. Prophet Muhammad was the Pir and hence the bearer of the Noor and Hazarat was also the bearer of the same Noor. Yes the hadith is correct.

There are two ways of interpreting of our faith - the zahir and the batin as per Farman:

"Remember also that with regard to the interpretation of our faith, that which is Batin is Batin, that which is Zahir is Zahir. Remember that this is fundamental. And this is the Farman which I have given you today. And I wish that there should be no confusion."(Damascus Syria, May 8, 1980 )

From the zaher as reflected in the names you have quoted, Hazarat Ali inherited the role of the Prophet, but from the batin, the Imam appointed Prophet Muhammad as the Pir. Imamat has always existed and did not start with the final revelation. It was just a new phase.

[kmaherali]

QALAM in Ismaili literature is Universal Intellect or NOOR E MUHAMMADI.

LOH is Universal Soul or NOOR E ALI.

Who is the manifestation of QALAM today?

Who is manifestation of LOH today?
ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID. (hadith e Nabawi)

I asked you the question because there is no answer from your understanding of the LOH and the QALAM. The Pen and the Tablet are always present where as Prophet Muhammad was the prophet for only 23 years. Hence he cannot be the QALAM.

I provided my understanding in my earlier post as the Pen being the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (Piratan) and the Tablet the object upon which the Pen 'writes'. It can be the enitre creation or the Book.

Piratan and the creation or the Book always exists and hence better reflect the Pen and the Tablet.

[kmaherali]

Key Terms in Hinduism:

atman: Hindu concept of the eternal soul

Same in Ismailism as per verse:

ejee aatmaa neergunn bhrahm chhe, dehee chhe taralaa ne ghaas
nur satgur boleeyaa munivar, karjo aatmaa abheeyaas
bhaai-o...................................................16

The destiny of the soul is towards the formless Creator and the destiny of the body is under the reeds and grass. Nur Satgur has said, O momins contemplate upon the development or progress of the soul continuosly.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22831

avatar: Hindu concept of the incarnation or earthly manifestation of a deity

Same in Ismailism as per verse:

Jire bhaai jugaa jug Shaah avtaaraj dhareaa,
bhaai Bharmaa, Vishnu, Mahesar
trei dev avtareaa

O brother, through ages God has taken up manifestations in the form of Bhrama, Vishnu and Mahesar

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4007

Bhagavad-Gita: Sanskrit for 'Song of the Lord'; this text is regarded as the crowning achievement of Hindu sacred literature

Paramahansa Yogananda in his commentary of the Gita (13:1) writes:

The word Gita means song. Bhagavad Gita signifies Song of the Spirit. Various scriptural commentators have pointed out that phonetically the syllables of Gi-ta, reversed, make the word Ta-gi, "the renunciant"(tyagi). The main theme of the Gita is the renunciation by the soul of its incarnate prodigal wanderings, by vanquishing material and physical desires and so reclaiming its blessed home in Spirit.

bhakti: Hindu concept of devotional service to a personal god. Bhakti-yoga is one of the principal paths to liberation taught in Hinduism.

In Ismailism Bhagati is used but conveys the same meaning.

jeere viraa romerome maaro shaah vase
ane a(n)tar nahi ek teel
evu(n) jaannee ne bhagataai keejee-e
shaah paratak betthaa dil.............................5

Dear brothers: Within every hair of my body, my Lord resides and He is not remote even by a distance of one grain of simsim. By regarding Him thus, perform your devotions; the Lord is present and seated in the heart.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22878

Brahma: Hindu god of creation

Also in Ismailism.

ejee aatmaa neergunn bhrahm chhe

The destiny of the soul is towards the formless Creator
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22831

Brahman: Hindu concept for the spiritual oneness of all reality

This concept is reflected in:

ejee sab ghatt saamee maaro bharpur betthaa
tame gaafal dur ma dekho ek jeeyo jee jeere bhaai re.........1

O momins: In every heart (body, not necessarily human),
my Lord is seated entirely. O ignorant! do not consider Him
to be remote from you. He is indeed the only Glorious Lord, O brother.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3775

Brahmin: Priestly caste of Indian society
caste: literally means, 'race'; the stratified system of social classes in traditional Hindu society

About the nobility and the ideal of the caste system in India and it's corruption, Paramahansa Yogananda writes in his commentary of the Gita (2:31):

The sages of India were the first to pattern their civilization after the bodily government. That is why they emphasized the recognition of four natural castes, according to man's natural qualifications. The rishis maintained that four castes are necessary in the proper government of a country. The intellectual and spiritual Brahmins, the Kshtriya soldiers and rulers, the Vaishya businessmen, and the Sudra laborers should cooperate in a successful government of a country - even as the brain, the hands, the tissues, and the feet all cooperate for the successful maintenance and progress of the bodily kingdom.

In India the four castes were originally based on the innate qualities and outward actions of the people. All had a respected and necessary place in society. Later, through ignorance, the caste rules became a hereditary halter. Confusion crept in; unworthy children of intellectual and spiritual Brahmins claimed to be Brahmins by sheer virtue of birth, without a corresponding spiritual stature. Children of Kshatriyas became soldiers and rulers even if they had no aptitude or skill in arms or capability to govern. The children of the Vaishyas, even without understanding management or agriculture or trade, laid claim to their inheritance as farmers or businessmen. Sudras were confined to menial labor and servitude, regardless of their superior qualifications. This rigid hereditary caste system is defended only by the orthodox minority in India.

guru: in Hinduism, refers to a spiritual teacher

In Ismailism the recognition of the Guru is the fundamental principle:

Jire bhaai dharam murat pahelaa
Gur Brhamaa pichaanno;
to aa Gur vinaa jivaddo na chutte ho ji 1

O brother! The fundamental principle of religion is the recognition of the Creator Guide, without such a guide the soul is not freed. http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4052

jiva: in Hinduism, refers to the physical/psychological/social 'self' which acts, but which is not eternal

In Ginans jiv is mentioned a lot as:

illaahee bhed ta(n)tav naam leeje
aapnne jeevdde kee chee(n)taa re momanbhaai keeje
aapne jeevddeku(n) dozakh na deeje..illaahee.................1

Extract(or obtain) the Divine mysteries from the essence of His name(by constant remembrance and contemplation). O brother momins, be mindful about the condition of your selves and do not condemn yourselves to hell.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22819

Krishna: Incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu, who appears as a main character in the Bhagavad-Gita

In many Ginans Lord Krishna has been mentioned as Karsan. For example:

Eji Karsan ji bhannere Arjun saanbhalo,

Lord Krishna teaches, listen Arjun

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3664

maya: Hindu concept of false or illusory reality

Many references about illusory maya in the Ginans. For example:

ejee kaayaa maayaa sarave jutthee, jesee vaayukee mutthee
jyu(n) paanneekaa parpottaa, futtataa na laage vaar
tum chet man meraa...........................................2

Your body and the illusory existence is all false, like the air in your palm or like a bubble of air in water which does not take too long to burst.
Beware o my heart(soul).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23186

meditation: focused, disciplined concentration intended to enable experience of the sacred

In Ginans Meditation is called jap as in:

ejee gatmaa(n)he jap tap gatmaa(n)he jugatee
gatmaa(n)he ameeras gatmaa(n)he mugatee.....................15

In JamaatKhaanaa there is meditation and abstinence, and in Jamaatkhaanaa there is the method (way of salvation). In JamaatKhaanaa there is holy water (or water of life - geenaans),
and in JamaatKhaanaa there is salvation or freedom.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22787

moksha: release from the cycle of death and rebirth in Indian religions; liberation

Moksh has been mentioned in several Ginans, for example:

ejee jameen aasmaan saahebe jugate jaddeeyaa
tenne deedhaa chhe geerbhaavaas ho
sudho karee saaheb sarevajo, to paamsho moksh deedaar ho

In this age(time,universe), the Lord has fashioned the earth and the heavens, and has given (the promise during) the nine months in the mother's womb. By considering the Imaam as a pure entity, worship (serve) Him, the result of which you will attain the Vision and salvation.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4077

samsara: Sanskrit for 'the cycle of rebirth'

In Ginanic literature it is referred to as feraa - cycles of rebirth as in:

ejee sir par kaal phire sa(n)t saadhu, ab tu(n) chet savellaa
is vellaa maa(n)he jo tu(n) bhul jaaesi,
to bahot khaaesi feraa.....kiyaa ni(n)d sove................2

Death hovers over your head, o pious and holy one, so now be alert in time. If at this time you forget, you will suffer many cycles.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22928

Shiva: Hindu god of destruction and rejuvenation
Vishnu: Hindu god of preservation and love; appears on earth on verious forms (avatars) in times of crisis

In Ginanic literature Shiva is referred to as Mahesar and Vishnu is always present as the Imam:

ejee bhrahmaa veeshnav maheshar bhanneeye
kal maa(n)he veeshnu(n) Imaam
je jeev farmaane chaalyaa
so pahotaa bahesht makaan..............illaahee.............16

Know the Creator, Ruler and the Destroyer(of evil). In the present age Lord Vishnu is the Imaam. Those souls that have followed the Farmaans, have reached the abode of paradise.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22819

Vedas: literally means, 'knowledge'; applies to the entire collection of Indian sacred literature, including the Upanishads

In Ginans the term ved is used extensively meaning scripture as in:

eji athar ved maa(n)he je koi maaher
dash maa(n)he din dayaal mawlaa betthaa chhe zaaher
........aartee keeje.........4

O momins! if one engages in the study of the Stable Scripture - the Ginans), he/she will know that the Mercy of religion is physically seated
as the tenth manifestation of the Lord.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23113

[ismaili103]

Does anyone know who is the manifestation of MAHESH.

Vishnu/Allah is manifested as Imam
Bhrama/Muhammad is manifested as Pir
What about Mahesh/who is also refered as ADAM in some Ginans like " PAAR KARO BED GURJEE"

Does Mahesh means Ulil Umr?

E.g Allah( Vishnu), Muhammad( Bhrama), Ulil Umr( Mahesh) ?

[shivaathervedi]

Key Terms in Hinduism:

atman: Hindu concept of the eternal soul

Same in Ismailism as per verse:

ejee aatmaa neergunn bhrahm chhe, dehee chhe taralaa ne ghaas
nur satgur boleeyaa munivar, karjo aatmaa abheeyaas
bhaai-o...................................................16

The destiny of the soul is towards the formless Creator and the destiny of the body is under the reeds and grass. Nur Satgur has said, O momins contemplate upon the development or progress of the soul continuosly.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22831

avatar: Hindu concept of the incarnation or earthly manifestation of a deity

Same in Ismailism as per verse:

Jire bhaai jugaa jug Shaah avtaaraj dhareaa,
bhaai Bharmaa, Vishnu, Mahesar
trei dev avtareaa

O brother, through ages God has taken up manifestations in the form of Bhrama, Vishnu and Mahesar

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4007

Bhagavad-Gita: Sanskrit for 'Song of the Lord'; this text is regarded as the crowning achievement of Hindu sacred literature

Paramahansa Yogananda in his commentary of the Gita (13:1) writes:

The word Gita means song. Bhagavad Gita signifies Song of the Spirit. Various scriptural commentators have pointed out that phonetically the syllables of Gi-ta, reversed, make the word Ta-gi, "the renunciant"(tyagi). The main theme of the Gita is the renunciation by the soul of its incarnate prodigal wanderings, by vanquishing material and physical desires and so reclaiming its blessed home in Spirit.

bhakti: Hindu concept of devotional service to a personal god. Bhakti-yoga is one of the principal paths to liberation taught in Hinduism.

In Ismailism Bhagati is used but conveys the same meaning.

jeere viraa romerome maaro shaah vase
ane a(n)tar nahi ek teel
evu(n) jaannee ne bhagataai keejee-e
shaah paratak betthaa dil.............................5

Dear brothers: Within every hair of my body, my Lord resides and He is not remote even by a distance of one grain of simsim. By regarding Him thus, perform your devotions; the Lord is present and seated in the heart.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22878

Brahma: Hindu god of creation

Also in Ismailism.

ejee aatmaa neergunn bhrahm chhe

The destiny of the soul is towards the formless Creator
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22831

Brahman: Hindu concept for the spiritual oneness of all reality

This concept is reflected in:

ejee sab ghatt saamee maaro bharpur betthaa
tame gaafal dur ma dekho ek jeeyo jee jeere bhaai re.........1

O momins: In every heart (body, not necessarily human),
my Lord is seated entirely. O ignorant! do not consider Him
to be remote from you. He is indeed the only Glorious Lord, O brother.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3775

Brahmin: Priestly caste of Indian society
caste: literally means, 'race'; the stratified system of social classes in traditional Hindu society

About the nobility and the ideal of the caste system in India and it's corruption, Paramahansa Yogananda writes in his commentary of the Gita (2:31):

The sages of India were the first to pattern their civilization after the bodily government. That is why they emphasized the recognition of four natural castes, according to man's natural qualifications. The rishis maintained that four castes are necessary in the proper government of a country. The intellectual and spiritual Brahmins, the Kshtriya soldiers and rulers, the Vaishya businessmen, and the Sudra laborers should cooperate in a successful government of a country - even as the brain, the hands, the tissues, and the feet all cooperate for the successful maintenance and progress of the bodily kingdom.

In India the four castes were originally based on the innate qualities and outward actions of the people. All had a respected and necessary place in society. Later, through ignorance, the caste rules became a hereditary halter. Confusion crept in; unworthy children of intellectual and spiritual Brahmins claimed to be Brahmins by sheer virtue of birth, without a corresponding spiritual stature. Children of Kshatriyas became soldiers and rulers even if they had no aptitude or skill in arms or capability to govern. The children of the Vaishyas, even without understanding management or agriculture or trade, laid claim to their inheritance as farmers or businessmen. Sudras were confined to menial labor and servitude, regardless of their superior qualifications. This rigid hereditary caste system is defended only by the orthodox minority in India.

guru: in Hinduism, refers to a spiritual teacher

In Ismailism the recognition of the Guru is the fundamental principle:

Jire bhaai dharam murat pahelaa
Gur Brhamaa pichaanno;
to aa Gur vinaa jivaddo na chutte ho ji 1

O brother! The fundamental principle of religion is the recognition of the Creator Guide, without such a guide the soul is not freed. http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4052

jiva: in Hinduism, refers to the physical/psychological/social 'self' which acts, but which is not eternal

In Ginans jiv is mentioned a lot as:

illaahee bhed ta(n)tav naam leeje
aapnne jeevdde kee chee(n)taa re momanbhaai keeje
aapne jeevddeku(n) dozakh na deeje..illaahee.................1

Extract(or obtain) the Divine mysteries from the essence of His name(by constant remembrance and contemplation). O brother momins, be mindful about the condition of your selves and do not condemn yourselves to hell.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22819

Krishna: Incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu, who appears as a main character in the Bhagavad-Gita

In many Ginans Lord Krishna has been mentioned as Karsan. For example:

Eji Karsan ji bhannere Arjun saanbhalo,

Lord Krishna teaches, listen Arjun

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3664

maya: Hindu concept of false or illusory reality

Many references about illusory maya in the Ginans. For example:

ejee kaayaa maayaa sarave jutthee, jesee vaayukee mutthee
jyu(n) paanneekaa parpottaa, futtataa na laage vaar
tum chet man meraa...........................................2

Your body and the illusory existence is all false, like the air in your palm or like a bubble of air in water which does not take too long to burst.
Beware o my heart(soul).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23186

meditation: focused, disciplined concentration intended to enable experience of the sacred

In Ginans Meditation is called jap as in:

ejee gatmaa(n)he jap tap gatmaa(n)he jugatee
gatmaa(n)he ameeras gatmaa(n)he mugatee.....................15

In JamaatKhaanaa there is meditation and abstinence, and in Jamaatkhaanaa there is the method (way of salvation). In JamaatKhaanaa there is holy water (or water of life - geenaans),
and in JamaatKhaanaa there is salvation or freedom.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22787

moksha: release from the cycle of death and rebirth in Indian religions; liberation

Moksh has been mentioned in several Ginans, for example:

ejee jameen aasmaan saahebe jugate jaddeeyaa
tenne deedhaa chhe geerbhaavaas ho
sudho karee saaheb sarevajo, to paamsho moksh deedaar ho

In this age(time,universe), the Lord has fashioned the earth and the heavens, and has given (the promise during) the nine months in the mother's womb. By considering the Imaam as a pure entity, worship (serve) Him, the result of which you will attain the Vision and salvation.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4077

samsara: Sanskrit for 'the cycle of rebirth'

In Ginanic literature it is referred to as feraa - cycles of rebirth as in:

ejee sir par kaal phire sa(n)t saadhu, ab tu(n) chet savellaa
is vellaa maa(n)he jo tu(n) bhul jaaesi,
to bahot khaaesi feraa.....kiyaa ni(n)d sove................2

Death hovers over your head, o pious and holy one, so now be alert in time. If at this time you forget, you will suffer many cycles.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22928

Shiva: Hindu god of destruction and rejuvenation
Vishnu: Hindu god of preservation and love; appears on earth on verious forms (avatars) in times of crisis

In Ginanic literature Shiva is referred to as Mahesar and Vishnu is always present as the Imam:

ejee bhrahmaa veeshnav maheshar bhanneeye
kal maa(n)he veeshnu(n) Imaam
je jeev farmaane chaalyaa
so pahotaa bahesht makaan..............illaahee.............16

Know the Creator, Ruler and the Destroyer(of evil). In the present age Lord Vishnu is the Imaam. Those souls that have followed the Farmaans, have reached the abode of paradise.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22819

Vedas: literally means, 'knowledge'; applies to the entire collection of Indian sacred literature, including the Upanishads

In Ginans the term ved is used extensively meaning scripture as in:

eji athar ved maa(n)he je koi maaher
dash maa(n)he din dayaal mawlaa betthaa chhe zaaher
........aartee keeje.........4

O momins! if one engages in the study of the Stable Scripture - the Ginans), he/she will know that the Mercy of religion is physically seated
as the tenth manifestation of the Lord.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23113

You are good at ginans, I appreciate your knowledge about ginans.
I am aware that mostly key terms in Hinduism are used in ginans. The reason for posting of these terms is, that in one of your posts your stand was that in ginans Hindu mythology or terminologies are not used as Hindu dharam accepts. My opinion is that LITERARY Pirs and Syeds borrowed Hindu terminologies and embedded Hindu mythologies and their legends in ginans.

[Admin]

And of course it is wrong to always seek to term as "Hindu" whatever comes from the "Indian" vocabulary.

[shivaathervedi]

Who is the manifestation of QALAM today?

Who is manifestation of LOH today?
ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID. (hadith e Nabawi)

I asked you the question because there is no answer from your understanding of the LOH and the QALAM. The Pen and the Tablet are always present where as Prophet Muhammad was the prophet for only 23 years. Hence he cannot be the QALAM.

I provided my understanding in my earlier post as the Pen being the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (Piratan) and the Tablet the object upon which the Pen 'writes'. It can be the enitre creation or the Book.

Piratan and the creation or the Book always exists and hence better reflect the Pen and the Tablet.

There is some contradiction in your statement. You wrote," Prophet was for only 23 years", where as Quran says, "kama arsalnaak illa rahmatallil aalameen". Therefore RAHMAT of Prophet is for ever covering aalameen.
You wrote," the Tablet the object upon which the pen writes". In sequence spiritual Pen comes first and spiritual Tablet comes later or third option is both at a time. Other question if there is no Pen there should be no writings on Tablet, therefore Pen comes first.
Do you consider LOH ( THE GUARDED TABLET ) AS ALI?

[shivaathervedi]

Does anyone know who is the manifestation of MAHESH.

Vishnu/Allah is manifested as Imam
Bhrama/Muhammad is manifested as Pir
What about Mahesh/who is also refered as ADAM in some Ginans like " PAAR KARO BED GURJEE"

Does Mahesh means Ulil Umr?

E.g Allah( Vishnu), Muhammad( Bhrama), Ulil Umr( Mahesh) ?

Good question. Who is the manifestation of Mahesh/Shiva?

[shivaathervedi]

The word CHAKRA is derived from Sanskrit, meaning "wheel", or "circle of life". They consist of seven main energy centers found in the body and is associated with a variety of colors, symbols and Hindu gods. In Hinduism, the continuous flow of energy throughout the chakras is referred to as “Shakti”. The concept of chakra was first mentioned in the ancient sacred Hindu text, The Vedas, but also plays an important role in Tibetan Buddhism.
Chakras are located along the spine and influence different nerve systems, organs and glands with their energy. These vortexes of energy are originated from Brahman, according to Hindu beliefs. It is presumed that as Shakti flows from one chakra point to another it exhausts the body and soul. The energy that becomes coiled in the base of the spine (root chakra) is called Kundalini. The spiritual goal is to awaken and release the Kundalini in order to attain a greater consciousness and merge it with the Infinite consciousness of Brahman. Through meditation and Kundalini yoga, the energy can pass back up the spine until it reaches the top of the head (crown chakra), producing a mystical experience.

Chakras & Colors:
1. Muladhara: The Root Chakra located at base of the spine. Associated with red. It affects your confidence, trust in life and self-esteem. It is from here that our base instincts arise; the need to survive or the fight or flight reflex.
2. Swadhisthana: The Sacral Chakra located below the navel. Associated with orange. It affects sexual desires, attractions and the need to procreate. Other emotions, such as, anger, fear and hatred stem from this chakra.
3. Manipura: The Solar Plexus Chakra located at the bottom of the breast bone. Associated with bright yellow. It affects the lower back, digestive system, liver and gall bladder. Feelings that are associated with this chakra, include, determination, self-acceptance and will power. It is here that instinctual emotion translates to more complex emotions.
4. Anahata: The Heart Chakra located at the center of the chest. Associated with green. Feelings associated with this location are love, compassion, emotional security, forgiveness and loving kindness.
5. Vishuddha: The Throat Chakra located at the throat, over the larynx. Associated with blue. It is the source of our ability to communicate, and express creativity and individuality.
6. Ajna: The Third Eye Chakra located at front of the head in between eye brows. Associated with indigo. The mind, as the sense organ and action organ are associated with this chakra. Feelings associated with this chakra are spirituality, awareness, and sense of time.
7. Sahasrara: The Crown Chakra located at the top of the head. Associated with purple, or gold. It is from this chakra that all others emanate. It relates to pure consciousness. In Hindu literature, it is known as “the supreme center of contact with God.” Here liberated ones abide in communion with the Self.

[ismaili103]

You are good at ginans, I appreciate your knowledge about ginans.
I am aware that mostly key terms in Hinduism are used in ginans. The reason for posting of these terms is, that in one of your posts your stand was that in ginans Hindu mythology or terminologies are not used as Hindu dharam accepts. My opinion is that LITERARY Pirs and Syeds borrowed Hindu terminologies and embedded Hindu mythologies and their legends in ginans.

There is no hinduism in Ginans, and Ginans have nothing to do with hinduism. The most accurate term for that is Indian terminologies just like Quran have Arabic terminologies. I'm 110% sure that if Quran had reaveled in subcontinent, than it would be in Sanskrit and Hari would be wriiten instead of Allah.

According to the article of newyork times, Christians in middle eastern Arabic countries say Allah for God and Isa for jesus, even here in Pakistan my christian freinds say Isa instead of Jesus, it doesn't mean they are muslims.

It's all about the geographical region.

[agakhani_1]

Does anyone know who is the manifestation of MAHESH.

"Imam of the time'!!, even though Lord Mahesh roll is as a destroyer!!

The spiritual goal is to awaken and release the Kundalini in order to attain a greater consciousness and merge it with the Infinite consciousness

Thanks for the information on 7 cycles, however scientist does not agree about the existence of 7 cycles in human bodies because it might be invisible I read that awakening Kundalini without experience guru's guidance may be dangerous.

[kmaherali]

There is some contradiction in your statement. You wrote," Prophet was for only 23 years", where as Quran says, "kama arsalnaak illa rahmatallil aalameen". Therefore RAHMAT of Prophet is for ever covering aalameen.

Then who is/was the Rahmatil Aalemeen before and after the Prophet?

You wrote," the Tablet the object upon which the pen writes". In sequence spiritual Pen comes first and spiritual Tablet comes later or third option is both at a time. Other question if there is no Pen there should be no writings on Tablet, therefore Pen comes first.?

In Islam as per MSMS in his memoirs, creation is continuous hence every moment a Tablet is created and 'written' upon by the Divine Intellect. They would be created together simultaneously...

Do you consider LOH ( THE GUARDED TABLET ) AS ALI?

No I don't. The Tablet is either the Creation itself or the Book - all signs of Allah.

[kmaherali]

You are good at ginans, I appreciate your knowledge about ginans..

Thanks for the complement!

I am aware that mostly key terms in Hinduism are used in ginans. The reason for posting of these terms is, that in one of your posts your stand was that in ginans Hindu mythology or terminologies are not used as Hindu dharam accepts. My opinion is that LITERARY Pirs and Syeds borrowed Hindu terminologies and embedded Hindu mythologies and their legends in ginans.

Many concepts are shared by all faiths and hence we have concepts common with Hinduism. However we have also differences although we may use the same terminologies. For example Vishnu in Hindusim only manifests periodically whereas in Ismailism he is always present.

[kmaherali]

"Imam of the time'!!, even though Lord Mahesh roll is as a destroyer!!

As in the narrative of Das Avtar:

Aashaajee Enne avtaare kaaleengaa-ne maarshe
daannav sohee sangaar-she jee
maaree daannav ne saami khel karshe
rikheesar gher vadhaayun................Haree anant..434

Oh Lord In that manifestation He will slay the evil force
and He will slay the demon
Having slayed the demon the Lord will perform His play
and mysteries
and the homes of the devotees will be joyous and happy
Haree You are eternal...

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/part5.html

[shivaathervedi]

There is some contradiction in your statement. You wrote," Prophet was for only 23 years", where as Quran says, "kama arsalnaak illa rahmatallil aalameen". Therefore RAHMAT of Prophet is for ever covering aalameen.

Then who is/was the Rahmatil Aalemeen before and after the Prophet?

You wrote," the Tablet the object upon which the pen writes". In sequence spiritual Pen comes first and spiritual Tablet comes later or third option is both at a time. Other question if there is no Pen there should be no writings on Tablet, therefore Pen comes first.?

In Islam as per MSMS in his memoirs, creation is continuous hence every moment a Tablet is created and 'written' upon by the Divine Intellect. They would be created together simultaneously...

Do you consider LOH ( THE GUARDED TABLET ) AS ALI?

No I don't. The Tablet is either the Creation itself or the Book - all signs of Allah.

Confusion created because you used the words," Prophet was ONLY FOR 23 YEARS". Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali are Rahmat for Aalameen according to Hadith ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID.

OHONG NIRINJIN EEK VARKHASHJ KEETA
UN KU(N) DHALI DOEY JO DITTA
EEK NOOR E MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
DUJA NOORE ALI MURTAZA (SYED AHMAD SHAH)

No doubt creation is continuous and perpetual, but each and every event was recorded in Tablet in primordial time.

Mowla Ali in one of his sermon said, " ANA LOWHIM MAHFUZ" I am the GUARDED TABLET.

[shivaathervedi]

"Imam of the time'!!, even though Lord Mahesh roll is as a destroyer!!

As in the narrative of Das Avtar:

Aashaajee Enne avtaare kaaleengaa-ne maarshe
daannav sohee sangaar-she jee
maaree daannav ne saami khel karshe
rikheesar gher vadhaayun................Haree anant..434

Oh Lord In that manifestation He will slay the evil force
and He will slay the demon
Having slayed the demon the Lord will perform His play
and mysteries
and the homes of the devotees will be joyous and happy
Haree You are eternal...

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/part5.html

But in this part there is no mention of Mahesh or Shiva. The word used is Avtaar which is tenth Avtaar Naklanki/Kalki against Kalingo.

[shivaathervedi]

You are good at ginans, I appreciate your knowledge about ginans..

Thanks for the complement!

I am aware that mostly key terms in Hinduism are used in ginans. The reason for posting of these terms is, that in one of your posts your stand was that in ginans Hindu mythology or terminologies are not used as Hindu dharam accepts. My opinion is that LITERARY Pirs and Syeds borrowed Hindu terminologies and embedded Hindu mythologies and their legends in ginans.

Many concepts are shared by all faiths and hence we have concepts common with Hinduism. However we have also differences although we may use the same terminologies. For example Vishnu in Hindusim only manifests periodically whereas in Ismailism he is always present.

You wrote," For example Vishnu in Hinduism only manifests periodically where as in Ismailism he is always present". Why mention of periodical manifestation of Vishnu? Was that not better to introduce Noor e Ali in place of Vishnu which is for ever.

[Admin]

Why mention of periodical manifestation of Vishnu? Was that not better to introduce Noor e Ali in place of Vishnu which is for ever.

There is no difference whatever semantics. Manitou of the Red Indian or Yahve of the Jews is not any different than Noor e Ali. Our Imam said you should not allow them to think that your God is different from their God.

[kmaherali]

Confusion created because you used the words," Prophet was ONLY FOR 23 YEARS". Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali are Rahmat for Aalameen according to Hadith ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID..

I have no problem about the Noor pf Muhmmad and Ali being one. The problem was when you said the QALAM was Muhammad and I said that cannot be so because Prophethood is not considered as an eternal institution, whereas Imamat/Piratan is. Hence Piratan is more appropriate as the Pen instead of Muhammad unless by Muhammad you mean Piratan.

No doubt creation is continuous and perpetual, but each and every event was recorded in Tablet in primordial time.

Mowla Ali in one of his sermon said, " ANA LOWHIM MAHFUZ" I am the GUARDED TABLET.

Interesting, it echoes Mowlana Rumi:

He (the Pir) was made acquainted with the (material) form of every existent being, before this Universal Soul became fettered (by materiality).(Mathnavi 2:166 onwards)

Hence we may consider the Pen and the Tablet to be one. Of course the Sunnis and the 12ver Shias consider the Umm al-Kitab as the Loh Mafuz:

" Allah effaces and confirms what He wishes. With/By Him is the mother of the book" (Surat al Raad: 13: 39). For more on this go to the link below.

http://sufiyya.blogspot.ca/2010/02/umm- ... 13-39.html

[kmaherali]

But in this part there is no mention of Mahesh or Shiva. The word used is Avtaar which is tenth Avtaar Naklanki/Kalki against Kalingo.

But the fuction of Shiva is expressed as the destroyer of evil. The Imam functions as the Bhrama when giving guidance but doesn't make it explicit that he is.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
It seems that nearly 24 pages of xxxx material is posted.I wish to know from learned members in just few lines( maximum 5 lines) their input on WHAT WAS PHILOSOPHY of the vedic period/era.
I feel If one can read and post then it may be understanding it as well.

[shivaathervedi]

PRAHLAD AND HOLIKA

Holika was a demoness in Hindu Vedic scriptures, who was burnt to death with help of God Vishnu. She was the sister of King Hiranyakashipu and aunt of Prahlad.
The story of Holika dahan (Holika's death) signifies the triumph of good over evil. Holika is associated with the annual bonfire on the night before Holi, the Hindu festival of colors.
According to Bhagavat Purana, a king named Hiranyakashipu who, like many demons and Asuras, had the intense desire to be immortal. To fulfill this desire, he performed the required Tapas or penances until he was granted a boon by Brahma. Since the Gods rarely granted immortality, he used his guile and cunning to get a boon which he thought made him immortal. The boon gave Hiranyakashyapu five special powers: he could be killed by neither a human being nor an animal, neither indoors nor outdoors, neither at day nor at night, neither by astra (projectile weapons) nor by any shastra (handheld weapons), and neither on land nor in water or air. As this wish was granted, Hiranyakashyapu felt invincible, which made him arrogant. Hiranyakashyapu decreed that only he be worshiped as a God, punishing and killing all who defied him. His son, Prahlad, disagreed with his father, and refused to worship his father as a god, continuing instead to worship Vishnu.
This made Hiranyakashipu very angry and he made various attempts to kill Prahlad. During a particular attempt on Prahlad's life, King Hiranyakashyapu called upon his sister Holika for help. Holika had a special cloak that protected her from being harmed by fire. Hiranyakashyapu asked her to sit on a bonfire with Prahlad, by tricking the boy to sit on her lap and she herself took her seat in flames. The legend has it that Holika had to pay the price of her sinister desire by her life: she was unaware that the boon worked only when she entered a fire alone. Prahlad, who kept chanting the name of Vishnu all this while, came out unscathed as Vishnu blessed him for his extreme devotion.
Vishnu appeared in the form of NARASIMHA, half human and half lion, at dusk (when it was neither day nor night), took Hiranyakashyapu at a doorstep (which was neither indoors nor outdoors), placed him on his lap (which was neither land, water nor air), and then eviscerated and killed the king with his lion claws (which were neither a handheld weapon nor a launched weapon). In this form, the boon of five special powers granted to Hiranyakashyapu were no longer useful. Prahlad and the kingdom of human beings were thus free from the compulsion and fear of Hiranyakashyapu, showing the victory of good over evil.

[shivaathervedi]

But in this part there is no mention of Mahesh or Shiva. The word used is Avtaar which is tenth Avtaar Naklanki/Kalki against Kalingo.

But the fuction of Shiva is expressed as the destroyer of evil. The Imam functions as the Bhrama when giving guidance but doesn't make it explicit that he is.

Not the proper answer. The question asked was,' Who is the manifestation of Mahesh/Shiva.
Brahma you have equated as Pir in one of your posts, so is Pir manifestation of Mahesh and destroyer of Kalinga according to you.