With reference to a posting by ismaili103 on Momin chetamani on dated Feb17, 2015, I have few questions and need explaination, hope 103 or any one else can answer my queries.
Is syed Imam shah included in the list of our Pirs.
He requested Imam of the time to bestow on him piratan, which Imam refused and asked him to continue the work of da'wat in Gujrat. It is said, he was annoyed and quit Ismaili Tariqa.
He than with his son Noor Muhammad shah started a seperate line in pirana Gujrat.
I read all 630 quartets, and found wrong information.
Was Khoja community present at time of Prophet Muhammad. Please read parts 110, 120, 122. ( deejo dheej mahen khoja chaar )
Do any one knows the history of Khaliq, khuda bukhsh, Sadiq, and Abdur Rasul. Khuda Bukhsh is not an Arabic name. Ref. to part 123. ( arabi bhkhiya mahen tee hatta,
Tee tou Gujrati mahen kida nirdhar ). According to history, Prophet never gave 4 slaves in dowry to Bibi Fatima! Please read both Shia and Sunni sources.
According to Syed Imam shah the progeny of those khojas continued till today. Who are they in this modern times. Part 156.
Imam shah negates the the philosophy of re incarnation. Part 183, though mostly khojas still believe in re incarnation.
There is cotradiction in part 199.Here Imam shah says, Sat gur noor made khojas and from there Sat panth started.Also tradition of daswand started by pir Sat gur noor,
this is totally in contradiction with parts 120, 122, 142, 147.
There is lot of repeatetion from parts 276 - 343.
Hindu terminologies are used a lot.
He mentions Pir Shams Sabzwari as Shams Tabrezi. Part 204. Looks like he had taken account of Pir Shams from the book ' Gulzar e Shams Tabrezi.' Ditto same account. The author of Gulzar e Shams Tabrezi did made mistake as writing Pir Shams from Tabrez.
In part 102, 116 it is mentioned that when Prophet ascended to Ma'raj, order came from ' Ale janab ' do not worry, ( about the marraige of Bibi Fatima ). Who is Ale janab, is that meant Mowla Ali. If yes, than it is suppose to be same story like God and mother Mary!
But again syed Imam Shah contradicts in part 108,109, Allah says to Prophet that girl( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and her husband is in my house. Is this not a case of samdhi rishta?
There has been a lot of discussion on this site that rank of Mowla Ali is above Prophet, but Imam Shah said,"Te ALI MUHAMMAD eek chhe".
In part 160, he mentions Haztat Hassan as Imam. with Imam Hussain.
momin chetamani
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ismaili103
- Posts: 542
- Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:40 am
Ya Ali Madad,
Dear mazhar you have half knowledge. Yes its right that syed imam shah got disappointed but later he realizes that athority of piratan is only in the hands of Imam. After this situation his brother or his son i dont know takes the benefit of situation and convence many weak ismailis to join their newly made sect known as IMAM SHAHI. These imam shahi peoples have nothng to do with ismailies beacuse they didnt follow IMAMT but they have there own Pirs. They are not Ismailies because they didnot follow Imamat.
Throughout the life of syed Imam shah he is loyal with Imam. He is great Ismaili Dai/ syed of that era and never ever doubt on Ali is Allah.
If syed Imam shah was wrong and left ismailism then throughout the globe we ismailies didnot recite hundreds of Ginans and Granths by him. If he was wrong Imam have make the firman to ban his Ginan but never do this but emphasize us to read and understand our great Ginans.
Ok.. If hindu termenologies is used in Ginans it doesnt mean it related to hindu but you need to diversify your mind to undertand our great ginans.
If pir use DASAVATR you need to understand it on islamic POV that Dasavatr is nothing bt concrpt of Imamat abd evolution from the origin of the creation.
If Vishnu is used you have to undrstand literaly vishnu means " the one who is in every atom of universe" and its same as ALLAH.
VISHWA= universe.
ANU=. Atom
Vishwanu/ Vishnu= one who is in every atom of universe
Donot doubt GINANS they are wrriten by those Pirs who are from pure loin of AHLE BAYAT and PIRS are holders of NOOR E NABUAT/ NOOR E MUHAMAD.
Dear mazhar you have half knowledge. Yes its right that syed imam shah got disappointed but later he realizes that athority of piratan is only in the hands of Imam. After this situation his brother or his son i dont know takes the benefit of situation and convence many weak ismailis to join their newly made sect known as IMAM SHAHI. These imam shahi peoples have nothng to do with ismailies beacuse they didnt follow IMAMT but they have there own Pirs. They are not Ismailies because they didnot follow Imamat.
Throughout the life of syed Imam shah he is loyal with Imam. He is great Ismaili Dai/ syed of that era and never ever doubt on Ali is Allah.
If syed Imam shah was wrong and left ismailism then throughout the globe we ismailies didnot recite hundreds of Ginans and Granths by him. If he was wrong Imam have make the firman to ban his Ginan but never do this but emphasize us to read and understand our great Ginans.
Ok.. If hindu termenologies is used in Ginans it doesnt mean it related to hindu but you need to diversify your mind to undertand our great ginans.
If pir use DASAVATR you need to understand it on islamic POV that Dasavatr is nothing bt concrpt of Imamat abd evolution from the origin of the creation.
If Vishnu is used you have to undrstand literaly vishnu means " the one who is in every atom of universe" and its same as ALLAH.
VISHWA= universe.
ANU=. Atom
Vishwanu/ Vishnu= one who is in every atom of universe
Donot doubt GINANS they are wrriten by those Pirs who are from pure loin of AHLE BAYAT and PIRS are holders of NOOR E NABUAT/ NOOR E MUHAMAD.
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ismaili103
- Posts: 542
- Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:40 am
Mazhar,
4 SERVENTS OF BIBI FATIMA.
Nabi MUHAMMAD grant bibi Fatima with 4 servents who were loyal with them and always believes Ali is Allah.
These 4 servents are KHUWAJA SARAS( Middle sex/ cant reproduce) they are very hardworking, Abid( ibadat guzar), loyal with ahle bayat. They serve bibi fatima many years and atlast bibi fatima said to them now I FREE YOU.and said to them you and your generation will always remains blessed and loyal with Imam of time.
After listening that they smiled in there heart that how can we have generation, we are middlesex, but after recieving such blessing from bibi fatima sudden miracles start and several change start in there body and they became males.
Generation of these 4 servents are only in thousands in todays time, they are living in remotest villages of Pamir Knot( tajik, wakahan, CA etc). They are out of the rest of the country no facalities reach them, no Govt facalities beacuse they live in at the high elevation for about 2 to 3k ASL.. They are still loyal with Imam of time but they never seen Imam. They have a tradition when a child born in there village the mukhis/ head/ sarpang of the village takes the cihild, put them in leather bad and seal the bag air tight. After this they went to peak for about 3 to 4k high and at the peak they say if this child in future is not going serve Imam and didnot belive Ali is Allah, its good if they die know and then head of village with amaldaars throw the child from that height and in the ground another members were stand, when they open the bag child never have any wound and child is get safe by the grace of Imam.
There IMAAN is that Tough.
Once late Rai Abu Ali visit them and said to them about it, then Mukhis replied that from 1000 year only one or 2 child are died.
4 SERVENTS OF BIBI FATIMA.
Nabi MUHAMMAD grant bibi Fatima with 4 servents who were loyal with them and always believes Ali is Allah.
These 4 servents are KHUWAJA SARAS( Middle sex/ cant reproduce) they are very hardworking, Abid( ibadat guzar), loyal with ahle bayat. They serve bibi fatima many years and atlast bibi fatima said to them now I FREE YOU.and said to them you and your generation will always remains blessed and loyal with Imam of time.
After listening that they smiled in there heart that how can we have generation, we are middlesex, but after recieving such blessing from bibi fatima sudden miracles start and several change start in there body and they became males.
Generation of these 4 servents are only in thousands in todays time, they are living in remotest villages of Pamir Knot( tajik, wakahan, CA etc). They are out of the rest of the country no facalities reach them, no Govt facalities beacuse they live in at the high elevation for about 2 to 3k ASL.. They are still loyal with Imam of time but they never seen Imam. They have a tradition when a child born in there village the mukhis/ head/ sarpang of the village takes the cihild, put them in leather bad and seal the bag air tight. After this they went to peak for about 3 to 4k high and at the peak they say if this child in future is not going serve Imam and didnot belive Ali is Allah, its good if they die know and then head of village with amaldaars throw the child from that height and in the ground another members were stand, when they open the bag child never have any wound and child is get safe by the grace of Imam.
There IMAAN is that Tough.
Once late Rai Abu Ali visit them and said to them about it, then Mukhis replied that from 1000 year only one or 2 child are died.
Mazhar,
The Momna as quoted in "Momna Chetamnai" are those 4 slaves of Bibi Fatima and history about themexplained it beautifully by shinan.
Now let me tell you about Imam shahi "momnas"!! these momanas are different then the momnas of Sidhpur and nearby villages let me give you a short history of Imam Shahi momnas.
The most and attractive miracle Syed Imam Shah performed to Hindu pilgrimages they were going to take bath in river Ganga, according Hindu beliefs if some one takes bath in river Ganga their all sins wiped out and he/she reaches in "Swarg" and achieves Moksha (salvation),therefore Hindus are still going in Banaras/Kashi and takes bath in water of Ganaga.
Syed Imam Shah told them where are you going? the leader of that group answered him that they are going Banaras to take bath in river Ganga, so that our all sins wiped out and we receive Moksha, Syed Imam Shah asked them what if I call river Ganga here ( in Girmatha, the name of the village, where Syed Imam shah called Ganga river) instead of you travel all the way Banaras, the pilgrimages requested him if you can call Ganga here then it would be lot better for us, it will save our time and money.
Syed Imam Shah called River Ganaga over there in Girmatha village, close to Pirana, all pilgrimages took bath in the river Ganga and they felled that they were really in Banarash/Kashi, they also cashed there "Hundi" ( a currency like bearer check,/ Cashier check or Demand Draft) and gave Bhojan (food) to the Brahmins ( a holy men in Hindu religion)but after all they did they realized that was a miracle and this miracles performed by this Muslim saint Syed Imam Shah, so they urged him to accept them in Pir's sect. Pir took them in Islam and thus many peoples from Patel, Brahmins and other sects joined in Islam at that time and same place, they called as "Momna" at that time but now a days they are recognized as ImamShahi , after all pilgrimages took bath the river Ganga disappeared. I want to make one clarification here, the other "Momanas" who are still residing near Sidhpur areas were first converted by Pir Satgur Noor and latter on Pir Tajddin and Pir KassimShah rejuvenated, reorganized and regrouped them and settled 250 families near Sidhpur and Methan, Metrana and other 22 villages and other 250 families settled in Kathiawar, now a days they are living many countries specially Pakistan, India, USA, Canada and many more. It is possible that in these pilgrimages group some Momins mentioned above might be joined in that pilgrimages group peoples who were going "yatra" of a holy place name Banaras/Kashi because Pirana, Mehsana, Ahmedabad, Patan and Sidhpur are very closer towns as per one researcher.
My own research is very similar to this but it has more proofs, which I already posted in the history of "Momna Jamat' in this website, interesting readers must have to read that.
AS PER MY OWN RESEARCH FOLLOWING ARE SOME FACTS ABOUT IMAMSHAHI SECT:-
1, Imamshah was the son of pir Hasan Kabirdin.
2, In most ginans ( dhrol) Imamshah mentioned the name of Pir Hasan Kabirdin, Pir Sadardin and pir Shams.
3, As per their dhrol pir Sadardin will give salvation of 12 karor murids same per our Ismaili ginanic literature.
4, They also believe in 10 incarnations of Lord Vishnu and about Nakalanki avatar. Imamshah wrote in his many ginans that Hazarat Ali (s.a.) is the tenth incarnation of Lord Vishnu but after the death of Imamshah some disciples of his started to believe that Imamshah was the 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu, but this is not true Imamshah never ever claimed himself as a 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu if you read and study Imamshah's own ginans whatever they have and whatever we Ismaili have you will not find this.
5, They recite 'OM' same like Hindus but also they have 'KALAMA"
6, They still have some Hindu rituals and traditions, so it is still big question for some sects and many scholars whether to consider them as a Hindu or Muslim.
7, After the death of Syed Imamshah this sect had many changes has come specially in their prayer, words and own rituals.
8, Imam Shahi sect was started by Syed Noor Mohammad Shah after the death of his father Imam Shah, he stopped to give Dasond to Hazar Imam and started to keep with him, so jamats complained to imam so, imam told jamats not to give dasond to him and draw him out from the ismaili sect, therefore in revenge he started his own sect and gave name " Imam Shahi sect" Imam Shah was not strated Imam Shahi sect. Some says that he started to considere himself as A 'NAR' Nar means Imam so that Imam draw him out from Ismaili sect.
I have many ginans of Syed Noor Mohd shah but only one ginan he wrote himself as a 'NAR' in other ginans he accepted Imam Islam shah as a imam.
The Momna as quoted in "Momna Chetamnai" are those 4 slaves of Bibi Fatima and history about themexplained it beautifully by shinan.
Now let me tell you about Imam shahi "momnas"!! these momanas are different then the momnas of Sidhpur and nearby villages let me give you a short history of Imam Shahi momnas.
The most and attractive miracle Syed Imam Shah performed to Hindu pilgrimages they were going to take bath in river Ganga, according Hindu beliefs if some one takes bath in river Ganga their all sins wiped out and he/she reaches in "Swarg" and achieves Moksha (salvation),therefore Hindus are still going in Banaras/Kashi and takes bath in water of Ganaga.
Syed Imam Shah told them where are you going? the leader of that group answered him that they are going Banaras to take bath in river Ganga, so that our all sins wiped out and we receive Moksha, Syed Imam Shah asked them what if I call river Ganga here ( in Girmatha, the name of the village, where Syed Imam shah called Ganga river) instead of you travel all the way Banaras, the pilgrimages requested him if you can call Ganga here then it would be lot better for us, it will save our time and money.
Syed Imam Shah called River Ganaga over there in Girmatha village, close to Pirana, all pilgrimages took bath in the river Ganga and they felled that they were really in Banarash/Kashi, they also cashed there "Hundi" ( a currency like bearer check,/ Cashier check or Demand Draft) and gave Bhojan (food) to the Brahmins ( a holy men in Hindu religion)but after all they did they realized that was a miracle and this miracles performed by this Muslim saint Syed Imam Shah, so they urged him to accept them in Pir's sect. Pir took them in Islam and thus many peoples from Patel, Brahmins and other sects joined in Islam at that time and same place, they called as "Momna" at that time but now a days they are recognized as ImamShahi , after all pilgrimages took bath the river Ganga disappeared. I want to make one clarification here, the other "Momanas" who are still residing near Sidhpur areas were first converted by Pir Satgur Noor and latter on Pir Tajddin and Pir KassimShah rejuvenated, reorganized and regrouped them and settled 250 families near Sidhpur and Methan, Metrana and other 22 villages and other 250 families settled in Kathiawar, now a days they are living many countries specially Pakistan, India, USA, Canada and many more. It is possible that in these pilgrimages group some Momins mentioned above might be joined in that pilgrimages group peoples who were going "yatra" of a holy place name Banaras/Kashi because Pirana, Mehsana, Ahmedabad, Patan and Sidhpur are very closer towns as per one researcher.
My own research is very similar to this but it has more proofs, which I already posted in the history of "Momna Jamat' in this website, interesting readers must have to read that.
AS PER MY OWN RESEARCH FOLLOWING ARE SOME FACTS ABOUT IMAMSHAHI SECT:-
1, Imamshah was the son of pir Hasan Kabirdin.
2, In most ginans ( dhrol) Imamshah mentioned the name of Pir Hasan Kabirdin, Pir Sadardin and pir Shams.
3, As per their dhrol pir Sadardin will give salvation of 12 karor murids same per our Ismaili ginanic literature.
4, They also believe in 10 incarnations of Lord Vishnu and about Nakalanki avatar. Imamshah wrote in his many ginans that Hazarat Ali (s.a.) is the tenth incarnation of Lord Vishnu but after the death of Imamshah some disciples of his started to believe that Imamshah was the 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu, but this is not true Imamshah never ever claimed himself as a 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu if you read and study Imamshah's own ginans whatever they have and whatever we Ismaili have you will not find this.
5, They recite 'OM' same like Hindus but also they have 'KALAMA"
6, They still have some Hindu rituals and traditions, so it is still big question for some sects and many scholars whether to consider them as a Hindu or Muslim.
7, After the death of Syed Imamshah this sect had many changes has come specially in their prayer, words and own rituals.
8, Imam Shahi sect was started by Syed Noor Mohammad Shah after the death of his father Imam Shah, he stopped to give Dasond to Hazar Imam and started to keep with him, so jamats complained to imam so, imam told jamats not to give dasond to him and draw him out from the ismaili sect, therefore in revenge he started his own sect and gave name " Imam Shahi sect" Imam Shah was not strated Imam Shahi sect. Some says that he started to considere himself as A 'NAR' Nar means Imam so that Imam draw him out from Ismaili sect.
I have many ginans of Syed Noor Mohd shah but only one ginan he wrote himself as a 'NAR' in other ginans he accepted Imam Islam shah as a imam.
It is even doubtfull that the Son of Syed Imam Shah pretended to be the Imam and took the Imam Shahis out of the mainstream Ismailis.
Just listen to his Ginans.
In fact some of the Imam Shahis prayers and writing still accept our 40th Imam. So the split has come late and probably if more research would be done, we would find greedy people politicians who took many people astray in Pirana and created the split of Imam Shahis.
I have visited Pirana in 1988, talked with the Mota Kaka of the Imam Shahis, and I have also talked to a Mukhi of a Gupti Jamat who was openly an Imam Shahi but in reality, he was one of us, and was a Maji-Mukhi of one of our Gupti Jamat in Bhawnagar.
That is why I would request people not to blame Imam Shah or his Son for the split. I am convinced that more research will show the opposite.
Just listen to his Ginans.
In fact some of the Imam Shahis prayers and writing still accept our 40th Imam. So the split has come late and probably if more research would be done, we would find greedy people politicians who took many people astray in Pirana and created the split of Imam Shahis.
I have visited Pirana in 1988, talked with the Mota Kaka of the Imam Shahis, and I have also talked to a Mukhi of a Gupti Jamat who was openly an Imam Shahi but in reality, he was one of us, and was a Maji-Mukhi of one of our Gupti Jamat in Bhawnagar.
That is why I would request people not to blame Imam Shah or his Son for the split. I am convinced that more research will show the opposite.
Dear Ismaili103,
With ref, to your 2 posts dated Feb24, 2015," 4 servants of Bibi Fatima" and " Mazhar you have haif knowledge" my reply is as follow.
Dear 103, I never claimed to be a scholar, I am still learninig. I know you are a good RC teacher, interested in Ginans. Let me clearify first, I respect Ginans. I know much about Imam shahi sect in Pirana Gujrat. Yes I know the meaning of Vishva and Anu. Let me mention meaning of Hari, which means eternal one or who lives in every one.
In original text of Ginans Hari is mentioned and not Ali. Hari changed to Ali in around 1920/30s. I do not understand why khojas are irritated to analytical criticism of Ginans, thats how we can go deep to understand Ginans with comparing to other philosophies. Ginans are type of bhajans., relgious, sufi and moral poetry. Pirs have borrowed
teminologies and vocabulary from Vedas, puranas,Gita, and Hindu mythology. In one of my posts, I have given an example from Gita where a pir has borrowed ditto the same couplet. I do not want to annoy any one. As far as Syed Imam shah is concerned, he was nor a pir so I can criticize his ginans or poetry,and same should be allowed with our other pirs in connection with history, social, political, economical, envirnomental, various sects and religions of thier times.
103, you did not addressed my various questions, which I asked in my post. In proof I gave part #s for easiness. You gave me the account of only 4 khojas.
Regarding those 4 khojas, you wrote those were khwaja saras. in which book you read this story apart from Momin Chetamani. Just imagine Pir Sadruddin also gave this title Khwaja to new converties at his time. This same story, I have heard from a famous missionary of the time. This story was fake and coined. His two other stories were found incorrect also. Though he was a good narrator, good speaker, very well infomed and knowledgable missionary. I do not criticize his intentions, but that 4 khojas story and throwing of infants from mountain in sealed air tight bag are wrong.
103, in which shia or sunni book is it mentioned that Prophrt Muhammad gave 4 slaves or khwaja saras in dowry to Bibi Fatima. Infact that marraige was one of the simplest marraige, there is no mention of slaves. If throwing of infants from mountain is true as you mentioned ( which I consider fake ) than I have to think twice, how can our Imam is allowing such kind of inhumane and cruel rituals and traditions when He is talking about human rights and pluralism. I believe He is kind to His followers. THIS 4 KHWAJA STORY MAY BE GOOD FOR " ALF U LAILATUN " BOOK. I believe my Imam will not tolerate such kind of practices. When that particular missionary told the story our leadership should have woke up and took the action.
Please answer the questions which I asked regarding Momin Chetamani, I have more waiting in line. Let see how discussion goes.
Dear 103, I have an idea. why not our mukhi throw infants from roof of JK, look if that infant servives means that is Ali Allah wala. Those who will die will be considered infidels. That is how you people will get rid of gair Ali Allah walas.
With ref, to your 2 posts dated Feb24, 2015," 4 servants of Bibi Fatima" and " Mazhar you have haif knowledge" my reply is as follow.
Dear 103, I never claimed to be a scholar, I am still learninig. I know you are a good RC teacher, interested in Ginans. Let me clearify first, I respect Ginans. I know much about Imam shahi sect in Pirana Gujrat. Yes I know the meaning of Vishva and Anu. Let me mention meaning of Hari, which means eternal one or who lives in every one.
In original text of Ginans Hari is mentioned and not Ali. Hari changed to Ali in around 1920/30s. I do not understand why khojas are irritated to analytical criticism of Ginans, thats how we can go deep to understand Ginans with comparing to other philosophies. Ginans are type of bhajans., relgious, sufi and moral poetry. Pirs have borrowed
teminologies and vocabulary from Vedas, puranas,Gita, and Hindu mythology. In one of my posts, I have given an example from Gita where a pir has borrowed ditto the same couplet. I do not want to annoy any one. As far as Syed Imam shah is concerned, he was nor a pir so I can criticize his ginans or poetry,and same should be allowed with our other pirs in connection with history, social, political, economical, envirnomental, various sects and religions of thier times.
103, you did not addressed my various questions, which I asked in my post. In proof I gave part #s for easiness. You gave me the account of only 4 khojas.
Regarding those 4 khojas, you wrote those were khwaja saras. in which book you read this story apart from Momin Chetamani. Just imagine Pir Sadruddin also gave this title Khwaja to new converties at his time. This same story, I have heard from a famous missionary of the time. This story was fake and coined. His two other stories were found incorrect also. Though he was a good narrator, good speaker, very well infomed and knowledgable missionary. I do not criticize his intentions, but that 4 khojas story and throwing of infants from mountain in sealed air tight bag are wrong.
103, in which shia or sunni book is it mentioned that Prophrt Muhammad gave 4 slaves or khwaja saras in dowry to Bibi Fatima. Infact that marraige was one of the simplest marraige, there is no mention of slaves. If throwing of infants from mountain is true as you mentioned ( which I consider fake ) than I have to think twice, how can our Imam is allowing such kind of inhumane and cruel rituals and traditions when He is talking about human rights and pluralism. I believe He is kind to His followers. THIS 4 KHWAJA STORY MAY BE GOOD FOR " ALF U LAILATUN " BOOK. I believe my Imam will not tolerate such kind of practices. When that particular missionary told the story our leadership should have woke up and took the action.
Please answer the questions which I asked regarding Momin Chetamani, I have more waiting in line. Let see how discussion goes.
Dear 103, I have an idea. why not our mukhi throw infants from roof of JK, look if that infant servives means that is Ali Allah wala. Those who will die will be considered infidels. That is how you people will get rid of gair Ali Allah walas.
Mazhar,
Sorry, it take me little longer time to answer your criticism on " Momin chetamani" but after careful review I found that your all the accusations and allegations are totally wrong!! seems that you have tried to find Pirs mistakes but you have miserably failed!! and put your self in laughing situation!!!!
I will prove you wrong one by one the wrong accusation you have made! so that next time you think twice before putting wrong allegations on our pirs or in our Ginans!
1, Tawarikh E Pir by Pirzada Sadruddin Dargahwala.
2, Pir Padharya Aapne Dwar: by Ali Bhai Nanji
3, Pirs: Vladimir Ivanov.
Besides above you can also find more about Imam Shahi sect in a waez of Rai Abu Ali.
The first Khoja conversion took place in Indo-Pak during Pir Sadardin era, and everybody knows that even Central Asian Ismailis!! Pir Sadardin preached Lohana, Patel, Bhatia, Kharwas e.t.c. tribes from Sind and from Gujarat and gave them name as 'KHWAJA"/ kHOJA. means Master, Lord, the title is also closely related to other terms in Sufism.
Now you may have question: then who were that four Khwaja?
Actually the real word is "Khwaja Sarah" as per the book and waezes
( their gender was "in and between"; neither they were in feminine nor in masculine gender!!.
that 4 khwajas were the slaves given in dowry by prophet Mohammad to Bibi Fatima. !
Brother Ismaili103 already put the story and history behind it, so there is no need to repeat it here again.
According to Syed Imam shah the progeny of those khojas continued till today. Who are they in this modern times. Part 156.
Yes, they are still alive; as per the book name 'PIR SABJAALI NI MADHYA ASIA NI MUSHAFARI" ; PIR SABJALI'S CENTRAL ASIAN JOURNEY" They are still living in remotest villages of Pamir Knot, Badakhshan ( tajik, wakahan, CA etc).
You asked!
Imam shah negates the the philosophy of re incarnation. Part 183, though mostly khojas still believe in re incarnation.
I don't see Syed Imam Shah negates about re incarnation, please read it carefully one more time, for your easy references I am putting that ginanic versed below:'
Eji Satguru jugajuge aaviya
Tene to sahune dharm batavio che saar
Chetanhaara tame chetjo
Aa mankha avtar nahi aave biji vaar Cheto....
In above verses I do not see any where that pir is negating about reincarnation!!!! WHAT A BIG LIE, FROM YOU???!!!
Matter of facts Imam Shah is saying that "Satgurus" has came in all four jugas to guide a true path a (shiratan Mustakim) but he is not saying about any incarnation!!!!
there is no word about "re incarnation" in above ginanic verses at all but pir has warned us please do not waste your human life you just received because human life only receive after 8.4 millions births latter! and only for certain times, as per the ginans a soul get only 84 chances as a human birth! so who knows which chance is his/her? that is why pir warns us! " mankha janam nahi aawe varamver....
and one ginanic verses Syeda Imam Begum says"
'MANKHA JANAM RATAN HAI SO KAIKU KHOTA HAI? UTH JAG MAN MERA!
Human life is like pearl ( and no body can afford to lose pearl ) so why you are you going to lose your life?
After reading your many posts I have started to believe that you do not believes in reincarnation but let me tell you this one human birth come after taking 8.4 millions different births before we have another chace as a human being
Please visit following link written by Kbhai! which is a solid proof against your wrong accusation:
http://simerg.com/special-series-i-wish ... %E2%80%99/
you can find this story in Pir Satgur Noor’s one ginan ‘PIR SATGURNA PUTALA”
If you still need more detail or want to read the whole story what happened in Hindu temple in Anlwad (Patan) during the Pir Satgur Noor's visit in temple? then please click the links below, there are some interesting information about Pir Satgur Noor.
You can also find same information in following websites.
http://ismaili.net/hero/hero17.html
http://pirsatgurnoor.com/about_pir_more.html#2
http://simerg.com/%C2%BB-special-series ... %E2%80%99/
So remember one thing not all participants are fool and jealous in this forum, they will catch your lies in a seconds so, next time be careful and do not put your self in laughing situations again!!, this is my advise to you forget your jealousy on ismaili pirs, they were great, they had divine powers and they are more superiors than your so called Central Asian dais. Period.
Sorry, it take me little longer time to answer your criticism on " Momin chetamani" but after careful review I found that your all the accusations and allegations are totally wrong!! seems that you have tried to find Pirs mistakes but you have miserably failed!! and put your self in laughing situation!!!!
I will prove you wrong one by one the wrong accusation you have made! so that next time you think twice before putting wrong allegations on our pirs or in our Ginans!
No, why he was not bestowed Piratan? is a long story, if I put the whole story then it will be longer post and most peoples does not like to read longer posts! but if you really wants to know why he was not bestowed piratan post then it is here some where in this website.Is syed Imam shah included in the list of our Pirs.
Nope, this is wrong too, according the following 3 different "history books of Ismaili pirs! all 3 authors has wrote that the Imam Shahi sect was started either by his Son Syed Noor Mohammad Shah or the disciples of Imam Shah after the death of Syed Imam Shah., actually Imam shahi sect started 100 years latter after the death of Imam Shah so logically it may be started by disciples of Imam Shah.He than with his son Noor Muhammad shah started a separate line in pirana Gujrat.
1, Tawarikh E Pir by Pirzada Sadruddin Dargahwala.
2, Pir Padharya Aapne Dwar: by Ali Bhai Nanji
3, Pirs: Vladimir Ivanov.
Besides above you can also find more about Imam Shahi sect in a waez of Rai Abu Ali.
Nope, Here is another lie from you:Was Khoja community present at time of Prophet Muhammad. Please read parts 110, 120, 122. ( deejo dheej mahen khoja chaar )
The first Khoja conversion took place in Indo-Pak during Pir Sadardin era, and everybody knows that even Central Asian Ismailis!! Pir Sadardin preached Lohana, Patel, Bhatia, Kharwas e.t.c. tribes from Sind and from Gujarat and gave them name as 'KHWAJA"/ kHOJA. means Master, Lord, the title is also closely related to other terms in Sufism.
Now you may have question: then who were that four Khwaja?
Actually the real word is "Khwaja Sarah" as per the book and waezes
( their gender was "in and between"; neither they were in feminine nor in masculine gender!!.
that 4 khwajas were the slaves given in dowry by prophet Mohammad to Bibi Fatima. !
Yes, I read the story of those 4 slaves many times before and in different books, I do not know why you say it is not in history book?Do any one knows the history of Khaliq, khuda bukhsh, Sadiq, and Abdur Rasul. Khuda Bukhsh is not an Arabic name. Ref. to part 123. ( arabi bhkhiya mahen tee hatta,
Tee tou Gujrati mahen kida nirdhar ). According to history, Prophet never gave 4 slaves in dowry to Bibi Fatima! Please read both Shia and Sunni sources.
Brother Ismaili103 already put the story and history behind it, so there is no need to repeat it here again.
According to Syed Imam shah the progeny of those khojas continued till today. Who are they in this modern times. Part 156.
Yes, they are still alive; as per the book name 'PIR SABJAALI NI MADHYA ASIA NI MUSHAFARI" ; PIR SABJALI'S CENTRAL ASIAN JOURNEY" They are still living in remotest villages of Pamir Knot, Badakhshan ( tajik, wakahan, CA etc).
You asked!
Imam shah negates the the philosophy of re incarnation. Part 183, though mostly khojas still believe in re incarnation.
I don't see Syed Imam Shah negates about re incarnation, please read it carefully one more time, for your easy references I am putting that ginanic versed below:'
Eji Satguru jugajuge aaviya
Tene to sahune dharm batavio che saar
Chetanhaara tame chetjo
Aa mankha avtar nahi aave biji vaar Cheto....
In above verses I do not see any where that pir is negating about reincarnation!!!! WHAT A BIG LIE, FROM YOU???!!!
Matter of facts Imam Shah is saying that "Satgurus" has came in all four jugas to guide a true path a (shiratan Mustakim) but he is not saying about any incarnation!!!!
there is no word about "re incarnation" in above ginanic verses at all but pir has warned us please do not waste your human life you just received because human life only receive after 8.4 millions births latter! and only for certain times, as per the ginans a soul get only 84 chances as a human birth! so who knows which chance is his/her? that is why pir warns us! " mankha janam nahi aawe varamver....
and one ginanic verses Syeda Imam Begum says"
'MANKHA JANAM RATAN HAI SO KAIKU KHOTA HAI? UTH JAG MAN MERA!
Human life is like pearl ( and no body can afford to lose pearl ) so why you are you going to lose your life?
After reading your many posts I have started to believe that you do not believes in reincarnation but let me tell you this one human birth come after taking 8.4 millions different births before we have another chace as a human being
There is no contradiction in part 199 at all , Imam Shah is 100 % right the first conversion made in "satpanth" by by Pir Satgur Noor! almost 400 hundred before the Khoja conversion made by Pir Sadardin; Pir Satgur Noor converted Momnas Surrounding Sidhpur and Patan areas.There is cotradiction in part 199.Here Imam shah says, Sat gur noor made khojas and from there Sat panth started
Please visit following link written by Kbhai! which is a solid proof against your wrong accusation:
http://simerg.com/special-series-i-wish ... %E2%80%99/
you can find this story in Pir Satgur Noor’s one ginan ‘PIR SATGURNA PUTALA”
If you still need more detail or want to read the whole story what happened in Hindu temple in Anlwad (Patan) during the Pir Satgur Noor's visit in temple? then please click the links below, there are some interesting information about Pir Satgur Noor.
You can also find same information in following websites.
http://ismaili.net/hero/hero17.html
http://pirsatgurnoor.com/about_pir_more.html#2
http://simerg.com/%C2%BB-special-series ... %E2%80%99/
So remember one thing not all participants are fool and jealous in this forum, they will catch your lies in a seconds so, next time be careful and do not put your self in laughing situations again!!, this is my advise to you forget your jealousy on ismaili pirs, they were great, they had divine powers and they are more superiors than your so called Central Asian dais. Period.
To Aghakhani, regarding Momin Chetamani.
You addressed only 4 points favourable to you and neglected other 8, because when you have no answers or unable to debate you start cursing and using absurd words. This ia a sign of defeat. You keep calling me a liar, gaddar, kafir. mufiq; doesn't matter to me, this shows your back ground from where you came. Let me clearify few things first. I respect Ginans and all literature printed by ITREB and IIS. I have studied almost all ginans printed by ITREB. I know history of our Pirs, and syeds. I know well the back ground of khoja philisophy of sub continent. I take the face value of the words. Inner meaning is a different track.
Syed Imam Shah was not a pir and you admitted it. He was a qavi/poet or rather religious poet. Being a human being he was prone to mistakes. Every one can make mistakes. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SIN AND A MISTAKE. To err is human. I am totally against this notion that pirs are superior than Prophet. Syed Imam Shah has written" TE ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHEY." I quoted pir Shams with ref. to Gulzar e Shams Tabrizi as mentioned in ginan, you ducked down that question. Is this not strange that Syed Imam Shah did not knew pir Shams was Sabzwari or Tabrizi. Who started the sect Imam Shahi is debatable, historically yet no conclusion.
Aghakhani, this is a literal discussion, you say your version and I shall mine. Regarding 4 slaves, syed Imam Shah used the words KHOJA and not KHOJA SARA.. Was he unable to distinguish between khoja and khoja sara? As I questioned before, in which Islamic book ( shia or sunni ) apart from Momin Chetamani, is mentioned that Prophet gave 4 slaves in dowry to Bibi Fatima! As I mentioned before in one of my post, that story of progeny of those 4 khojas is coined and is good for " zeb e dastan key liey."
This story is good for the book " ALFU LALATUN." For God sake, which mother will allow her infant child of few days be packed up in sealed air tight bag and thrown 4 kilometer up from a mountain. Think that infant will come down rolling approx. 2 miles down to ground!! I don't think our Imam is so cruel to allow such kind of ritual or tradition.
He gives us paternal maternal blessings. He is kind to His followers.
Aghakhani, Islam does not believe in reincanation. you are talking of 4 yugs before. Neither you nor myself were present at that time. MSMS said ," BE IBNUL WAQT"
He also said," NOW FORGET 9 AVTARS". Simple thing, for salvation obey Farman of the Imam of the time. We live in 21st century and not 4000 years back.
You have not answered my queries about parts102, 108, 109, 116, 160, 204. Was Daswand started at the time of Prophet? What about the story of marriage according to Momin Chetamani.
Old man, you wrote," Pirs of subcontinent were more superior than central Asian Dais." So this is your khoja mentality? Wait for my more questions on Momin Chetamani.
You addressed only 4 points favourable to you and neglected other 8, because when you have no answers or unable to debate you start cursing and using absurd words. This ia a sign of defeat. You keep calling me a liar, gaddar, kafir. mufiq; doesn't matter to me, this shows your back ground from where you came. Let me clearify few things first. I respect Ginans and all literature printed by ITREB and IIS. I have studied almost all ginans printed by ITREB. I know history of our Pirs, and syeds. I know well the back ground of khoja philisophy of sub continent. I take the face value of the words. Inner meaning is a different track.
Syed Imam Shah was not a pir and you admitted it. He was a qavi/poet or rather religious poet. Being a human being he was prone to mistakes. Every one can make mistakes. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A SIN AND A MISTAKE. To err is human. I am totally against this notion that pirs are superior than Prophet. Syed Imam Shah has written" TE ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHEY." I quoted pir Shams with ref. to Gulzar e Shams Tabrizi as mentioned in ginan, you ducked down that question. Is this not strange that Syed Imam Shah did not knew pir Shams was Sabzwari or Tabrizi. Who started the sect Imam Shahi is debatable, historically yet no conclusion.
Aghakhani, this is a literal discussion, you say your version and I shall mine. Regarding 4 slaves, syed Imam Shah used the words KHOJA and not KHOJA SARA.. Was he unable to distinguish between khoja and khoja sara? As I questioned before, in which Islamic book ( shia or sunni ) apart from Momin Chetamani, is mentioned that Prophet gave 4 slaves in dowry to Bibi Fatima! As I mentioned before in one of my post, that story of progeny of those 4 khojas is coined and is good for " zeb e dastan key liey."
This story is good for the book " ALFU LALATUN." For God sake, which mother will allow her infant child of few days be packed up in sealed air tight bag and thrown 4 kilometer up from a mountain. Think that infant will come down rolling approx. 2 miles down to ground!! I don't think our Imam is so cruel to allow such kind of ritual or tradition.
He gives us paternal maternal blessings. He is kind to His followers.
Aghakhani, Islam does not believe in reincanation. you are talking of 4 yugs before. Neither you nor myself were present at that time. MSMS said ," BE IBNUL WAQT"
He also said," NOW FORGET 9 AVTARS". Simple thing, for salvation obey Farman of the Imam of the time. We live in 21st century and not 4000 years back.
You have not answered my queries about parts102, 108, 109, 116, 160, 204. Was Daswand started at the time of Prophet? What about the story of marriage according to Momin Chetamani.
Old man, you wrote," Pirs of subcontinent were more superior than central Asian Dais." So this is your khoja mentality? Wait for my more questions on Momin Chetamani.
Why, I didn't answer about your remaining worthless and wrongly accused questions? the answer is very simple which I wrote in my previous post but brother Admin deleted it, your those question were totally wrong! and worthless because they were nothing else but just wrong accusations and wrong interpretation of that great granth "Moman Chetamani".
Do you think Imam can mistake? if your answer is no then Ismaili pirs also can not make mistakes because they both are from a same "Noor" and they both have divine powers.
Off course dais can mistakes because they were just like us and humans always makes mistakes because we do not have any divine powers but pirs can not! because they had divine powers. Ismaili pirs are superiors because they have divine powers which dais doesn't ,
"Dais are night and pirs are day."
Matter of facts this practice is still going on and those true murids of H. Ali still throwing their infants from the mountain and still believe "ALI IS THE ALLAH" They calls themselves as a 'MOWLAI" the believers of Mowla Ali.
Who told you that!!??? matter of facts there are several references ( if I am not forgetting then 18 ayas )in Quran about re Incarnations but peoples usually had made wrong interpretation of those ayas!
Not all 18 ayas but I am puting few here :
(1)
"God generates beings, and sends them back over and over again, til they return to him."
(2)
"How can you make denial of Allah, who made you live again when you died, will make you dead again, and then alive again, until you finally return to him?"
(3)
"God is the one who created you all, then provided you sustenance, then will cause you to die, then will bring you to life."
(4)
"Surely it is God who splits the seed and the stone, bringing the living from the dead; and it is God who brings the dead from living."
(5)
هو الذی احیاکم ثم یمیتکم ثم یحییکم
الحج – 66
He is such a God Who gave you life and later on takes your life and later on gives you another life.
(6)
"They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice, and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"
(7)
We created you out of dust, then out of sperm,
Then out of leech-like clot, partly formed and partly unformed, in
order that We may manifest (Our Power) to you;
And We cause whom We will to rest in the womb for an appointed term.
Then do we bring you out as babes, (then foster) you, that ye may
reach your age of full strength;
And some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the
feeblest old age,
So that they know nothing after having known much.
Off course Islam and Quran both believe in re incarnations; but the wrong interpreters like Mullah and Molwis and you they don't.FYI Now a days you can find many evidences or reincarnations even scientist also started to believe in re incarnation. and there are still some peoples like you still interpreting quranic ayas wrongly and they still believes that there is no reincarnation!!!
You wrote:
You keep calling me a liar, gaddar, kafir. munafiq; to me,
Any doubt about it? if no then ask your self first! but thanks for reminding me about your newly awarded titles "AASTIN KA SAP", which I forget in my previous posts! so add that titles in your titles list too.
Don't worry ! I am no go no where! I am here in this forum more then 7 years and the word "defeat" is not in my book.
And off course I accept my mistakes and apologizes for it, if some one prove me wrong.
But remember this your questions will be answered only if your questions will be legitimate and if you really wants to know more about that great granth, then it will be answered otherwise, I do not want to waste my time and knowledge for a person like you! who uttered lies in his every other sentences!! and who is heavily under influence of Sunnism!! who finds mistakes in Imam's farmans!! and have just started to find mistakes in ginans too: In my thinking your are a.......! no matter you consider your self as an Ismailis but your above habits put a ( ? )!! BIG QUESTION MARK (?) on it.
Does pir can make mistake?
Do you think Imam can mistake? if your answer is no then Ismaili pirs also can not make mistakes because they both are from a same "Noor" and they both have divine powers.
Off course dais can mistakes because they were just like us and humans always makes mistakes because we do not have any divine powers but pirs can not! because they had divine powers. Ismaili pirs are superiors because they have divine powers which dais doesn't ,
"Dais are night and pirs are day."
A great missionary name pir Sabja Ali, (whom after his death SMS bestowed a "PIR TITLE") has wrote about this events in his famous book, name " Pir Sabja Ali ni Madhya Asia ni Mushafari" you can also find more information about those 4 slaves in that books too.For God sake, which mother will allow her infant child of few days be packed up in sealed air tight bag and thrown 4 kilometer up from a mountain. Think that infant will come down rolling approx. 2 miles down to ground!! I don't think our Imam is so cruel to allow such kind of ritual or tradition.
Matter of facts this practice is still going on and those true murids of H. Ali still throwing their infants from the mountain and still believe "ALI IS THE ALLAH" They calls themselves as a 'MOWLAI" the believers of Mowla Ali.
Aghakhani, Islam does not believe in reincanation.
Who told you that!!??? matter of facts there are several references ( if I am not forgetting then 18 ayas )in Quran about re Incarnations but peoples usually had made wrong interpretation of those ayas!
Not all 18 ayas but I am puting few here :
(1)
"God generates beings, and sends them back over and over again, til they return to him."
(2)
"How can you make denial of Allah, who made you live again when you died, will make you dead again, and then alive again, until you finally return to him?"
(3)
"God is the one who created you all, then provided you sustenance, then will cause you to die, then will bring you to life."
(4)
"Surely it is God who splits the seed and the stone, bringing the living from the dead; and it is God who brings the dead from living."
(5)
هو الذی احیاکم ثم یمیتکم ثم یحییکم
الحج – 66
He is such a God Who gave you life and later on takes your life and later on gives you another life.
(6)
"They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice, and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"
(7)
We created you out of dust, then out of sperm,
Then out of leech-like clot, partly formed and partly unformed, in
order that We may manifest (Our Power) to you;
And We cause whom We will to rest in the womb for an appointed term.
Then do we bring you out as babes, (then foster) you, that ye may
reach your age of full strength;
And some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the
feeblest old age,
So that they know nothing after having known much.
Off course Islam and Quran both believe in re incarnations; but the wrong interpreters like Mullah and Molwis and you they don't.FYI Now a days you can find many evidences or reincarnations even scientist also started to believe in re incarnation. and there are still some peoples like you still interpreting quranic ayas wrongly and they still believes that there is no reincarnation!!!
You wrote:
You keep calling me a liar, gaddar, kafir. munafiq; to me,
Any doubt about it? if no then ask your self first! but thanks for reminding me about your newly awarded titles "AASTIN KA SAP", which I forget in my previous posts! so add that titles in your titles list too.
Yes, I am here but bring some more true and legitimate questions, not the accusation or white lies on "Momin Chetamani" or made up questions in your jealousy.Wait for my more questions on Momin Chetamani.
Don't worry ! I am no go no where! I am here in this forum more then 7 years and the word "defeat" is not in my book.
And off course I accept my mistakes and apologizes for it, if some one prove me wrong.
But remember this your questions will be answered only if your questions will be legitimate and if you really wants to know more about that great granth, then it will be answered otherwise, I do not want to waste my time and knowledge for a person like you! who uttered lies in his every other sentences!! and who is heavily under influence of Sunnism!! who finds mistakes in Imam's farmans!! and have just started to find mistakes in ginans too: In my thinking your are a.......! no matter you consider your self as an Ismailis but your above habits put a ( ? )!! BIG QUESTION MARK (?) on it.
Last edited by agakhani on Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: momin chetamani
What about Imams?agakhani wrote: "Dais are night and pirs are day."
Re: momin chetamani
MSMS said, reincarnation obviously means in higher sphere. [not exact words].
Let's analyze and see what our Imams said about reincarnation.
Let's analyze and see what our Imams said about reincarnation.
So what would be your interpretation?Admin wrote:It is all matter of interpretation which like choice of colour and taste of food is personal to each individual.
Imam is very clear. the only element is left for interpretation is "sphere". I am sure sphere in this context doesn't mean earth and physical body. specially when it's referred "higher sphere".
I am glad that you are aware about those hijackers, There is no doubt that there are many important information in this website which are indeed hard to find in any other websites. and that are the only things they do not likes and wants to destroy our literature.Actually it is a flattery, it means there is something important in this website that some people do not like.
But my above post was to warn you from those hijackers who are still active in this forum and they do not like certain information on certain topics and they are some what experts in cyber crimes. I believe that Mowla will protect this websites I remember that some Canadian leaders complained about this websites and asked mowla to shut down this website few years back but mowla denied it. means mowla like this website.
Another analogy would be as follow:agakhani wrote:
Imams are like a sun ( a light, a noor)
Day: Day of Resurrection = Qai'm ul-Qyiamah [subbat]
Nigh: Nigh of Power = Ba'ab of Qai'm
Sun = The Imam of the time [or The Prophets at their cycle].
Moon = The Hujjat of the Imam [or Asas at their cycle].
Stars = The Dais
When Prophet yusef [Joseph] dreams that the Moon and 11 stars prostrates before him, that signifies that Yusef was the Prophet [The Sun], and the Hujjat [The Moon] and the 11 Dais prostrates before him. It has esoteric significance. sunni or shia [tvelwers] interpret this differently, allegorize the Moon to Ya'qub [Jacob] and 11 stars as 11 brothers of the Yusef, but that's not correct.
Please answer the following more questions on Momin Chetamani.( any one can participate ). Aghkhani particularily need reply from you.
Though Syed Imam Shah was not a pir, but still he called himself a Pir.
1. DHAN DHAN TEY SATGUR IMAM SHAH NEY KAHIYEN
JEENEY SATGUREY GINAN KANTHIO VICHAAR. PART # 628.
SATGUREY JEEVU DHETHUN TEYVUN KAHIYUN
AAPNEY SAHU NEY JAAVUN CHHEY SAHEB NEY DUWAAR PAT # 630.
2. Those who do not believe in Quran and Shariat, Please check these parts.
ILM ALLAH JI BHEJIA
FARD FARMAWIYA FURQAN MAHEN. PART # 8 (FURQAN MEANS QURAN )
FARD FURQANEY THI UPPANA
TEY TOU PARWARIYAPROTHAMI MAHEN
SHARIAT TARIQAT HAQIQAT
TENI MAILUM CHHEY MARIFAT MAHEN. PART # 9
TEY TOU KHOJJIA QURAN MINJAAR. part # 162
3.Tabriz is used 2 times.Syed Imam Shah mentioned Pir Shams was from Tabriz, though he was from subzwar. PART 204, PART 205.
4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.
TEENEY BODHINEY KHOJA KAIYA
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM AACHAR
TIYAN THI SATPANTH CHALIO
DASWAND TANU VIAWAAR. PART # 199.
5. About Amrapuri means heaven, Syed Imam Shah mentions the SUNNI idea of heaven.
AMRAPURI MA NENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA
TEMA JAR TAR HERA MANEK PADARTH SAAR
SOWAN EENTEY TENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA
TEMA NAKHIYA CHHEY AMBER KASTURINA GGAR PART # 522.
HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523.
PANCH SAU MALLAIK TENA HUZUR MA RAHESEY
TE TOU FARMANI RAHESEY EY GHAR MINJAAR
TE TOU ASU JHALINEY UBHA RAHESEY
ANEY SAHIL KARAWEY SARAG MINJAAR. PART # 524 ( JUST IMAGINE 50 HURS, 500 SONS AND NO DAUGHRES )
6. IN PART 139, who was sardar , for whom Mowla Ali said, obey Him so that you can get salvation.
7. Approx. in 70 parts he wrote to pay daswand, dhaan, and aahaar, but only few times on iman. Though he was not pir but insisted to pay 40% to him.
CHALIO AMARU AALJO
PIR MUREED NU EY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 142, PART 360
8. Pir Shams visited 24 cities and not 24 countries.
TE TOU PHARIYA MULK CHOVEES MAHEN. PART # 205.
9. TE TOU IKVEESSARAG MAHEN JAGIYA PAMSEY
JE RAKHIYA CHHEY MIR PARBAT MINJAAR. PART # 528
What is this Mir Parbat?
10. SHATRU TE JE SATGUR NE JANEY NAHEN PART # 556
It means rest of the world or those Ismailis which are not from subcontinent khojas are enemies and are maha pappis (sinners).
11. Allah said to Prophet that girl ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and her husband ( Mowla Ali ) is in my house. Is this not a case of SAMDHI RISHTA.!!
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 108
JIYAREY AY FARJAND MOTTA THAISEY
TIYAREY KARSUN TE DUNIYA NU AACHAAR
AMEY TAMEY DONU EEK CHHAIYEN ( PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS LINE )
TENU KAIN NA KARSHO VICHAAR PART # 109
12. In part # 586, after mentioning Imam Islam Shah jumped to mention Imam Shah Garib Mirza, by neglecting Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansirbillah and Imam Abdus Salam. Our these Imams passed away in the life time of Syed Imam Shah. Not only these Imams but also. Imam Garib Mirza, Imam Abuzar Ali, Imam Murad Mirza and Imam Zulfiqar Ali passed away in his life time. WHY HE NEGLECTED OUR THESE IMAMS.? OBVIOUSLY FATHER AND SON LEFT ISMAILI TARIQA.
AAL E ALI TE SIRI ISLAM SHAH KAHEYIEN
TE SAMI SHAHGARIB MIRJA NU AVTAAR. PART # 586
Even HERITAGE has not properly translated this part at its site!
LOVERS OF GINANIC LITERATURE, PLEASE RESEARCH AND REPLY ALL ABOVE MENTIONED POINTS.
Though Syed Imam Shah was not a pir, but still he called himself a Pir.
1. DHAN DHAN TEY SATGUR IMAM SHAH NEY KAHIYEN
JEENEY SATGUREY GINAN KANTHIO VICHAAR. PART # 628.
SATGUREY JEEVU DHETHUN TEYVUN KAHIYUN
AAPNEY SAHU NEY JAAVUN CHHEY SAHEB NEY DUWAAR PAT # 630.
2. Those who do not believe in Quran and Shariat, Please check these parts.
ILM ALLAH JI BHEJIA
FARD FARMAWIYA FURQAN MAHEN. PART # 8 (FURQAN MEANS QURAN )
FARD FURQANEY THI UPPANA
TEY TOU PARWARIYAPROTHAMI MAHEN
SHARIAT TARIQAT HAQIQAT
TENI MAILUM CHHEY MARIFAT MAHEN. PART # 9
TEY TOU KHOJJIA QURAN MINJAAR. part # 162
3.Tabriz is used 2 times.Syed Imam Shah mentioned Pir Shams was from Tabriz, though he was from subzwar. PART 204, PART 205.
4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.
TEENEY BODHINEY KHOJA KAIYA
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM AACHAR
TIYAN THI SATPANTH CHALIO
DASWAND TANU VIAWAAR. PART # 199.
5. About Amrapuri means heaven, Syed Imam Shah mentions the SUNNI idea of heaven.
AMRAPURI MA NENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA
TEMA JAR TAR HERA MANEK PADARTH SAAR
SOWAN EENTEY TENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA
TEMA NAKHIYA CHHEY AMBER KASTURINA GGAR PART # 522.
HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523.
PANCH SAU MALLAIK TENA HUZUR MA RAHESEY
TE TOU FARMANI RAHESEY EY GHAR MINJAAR
TE TOU ASU JHALINEY UBHA RAHESEY
ANEY SAHIL KARAWEY SARAG MINJAAR. PART # 524 ( JUST IMAGINE 50 HURS, 500 SONS AND NO DAUGHRES )
6. IN PART 139, who was sardar , for whom Mowla Ali said, obey Him so that you can get salvation.
7. Approx. in 70 parts he wrote to pay daswand, dhaan, and aahaar, but only few times on iman. Though he was not pir but insisted to pay 40% to him.
CHALIO AMARU AALJO
PIR MUREED NU EY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 142, PART 360
8. Pir Shams visited 24 cities and not 24 countries.
TE TOU PHARIYA MULK CHOVEES MAHEN. PART # 205.
9. TE TOU IKVEESSARAG MAHEN JAGIYA PAMSEY
JE RAKHIYA CHHEY MIR PARBAT MINJAAR. PART # 528
What is this Mir Parbat?
10. SHATRU TE JE SATGUR NE JANEY NAHEN PART # 556
It means rest of the world or those Ismailis which are not from subcontinent khojas are enemies and are maha pappis (sinners).
11. Allah said to Prophet that girl ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and her husband ( Mowla Ali ) is in my house. Is this not a case of SAMDHI RISHTA.!!
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 108
JIYAREY AY FARJAND MOTTA THAISEY
TIYAREY KARSUN TE DUNIYA NU AACHAAR
AMEY TAMEY DONU EEK CHHAIYEN ( PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS LINE )
TENU KAIN NA KARSHO VICHAAR PART # 109
12. In part # 586, after mentioning Imam Islam Shah jumped to mention Imam Shah Garib Mirza, by neglecting Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansirbillah and Imam Abdus Salam. Our these Imams passed away in the life time of Syed Imam Shah. Not only these Imams but also. Imam Garib Mirza, Imam Abuzar Ali, Imam Murad Mirza and Imam Zulfiqar Ali passed away in his life time. WHY HE NEGLECTED OUR THESE IMAMS.? OBVIOUSLY FATHER AND SON LEFT ISMAILI TARIQA.
AAL E ALI TE SIRI ISLAM SHAH KAHEYIEN
TE SAMI SHAHGARIB MIRJA NU AVTAAR. PART # 586
Even HERITAGE has not properly translated this part at its site!
LOVERS OF GINANIC LITERATURE, PLEASE RESEARCH AND REPLY ALL ABOVE MENTIONED POINTS.
mazhar, you have not understood the ginan and it is not your fault. You do not have the minimum understanding of simple words like "Chatru" or "Mulak". That is Ok, it happens to everyone to be ignorant in some field.
But then you invent interpretation to suit your agenda. Invention that has nothing to do with what is written. Then you continue and conclude with completely non-sense declaration. This can not go on and on here on this Forum.
Mazhar, As I have replied to your other post, you keep opening threads to discuss the same thing again and again. The only thing common I see in your post is to degrade the Ismaili Tariqa as it is explained by Imams and Pirs.
I have not seen any openness in the explanation which have been given time and again by various members to you. I don't think you are reading their post or their info. You are just here to advance your agenda. And this site has rules that do not allow that. Do not protest if I apply the rules and delete your account. You have been advised to read the rules and stop playing games. Last warning.
But then you invent interpretation to suit your agenda. Invention that has nothing to do with what is written. Then you continue and conclude with completely non-sense declaration. This can not go on and on here on this Forum.
Mazhar, As I have replied to your other post, you keep opening threads to discuss the same thing again and again. The only thing common I see in your post is to degrade the Ismaili Tariqa as it is explained by Imams and Pirs.
I have not seen any openness in the explanation which have been given time and again by various members to you. I don't think you are reading their post or their info. You are just here to advance your agenda. And this site has rules that do not allow that. Do not protest if I apply the rules and delete your account. You have been advised to read the rules and stop playing games. Last warning.
In response to one of the questions asked by a group of missionaries Mowlana Sultan Muhamad Shah stated the following regarding rebirth.tret wrote:MSMS said, reincarnation obviously means in higher sphere. [not exact words].
Let's analyze and see what our Imams said about reincarnation.
"Obviously reborn means in a higher sphere than this earth. Without going to the final spiritual sphere there will be further triumph before the highest points are reached unless those highest points are reached in this world and on this earth by the general rules of the Ismaili faith beginning with kindness, gentleness, etc and going up to highest love of union with Imam."
MSMS has also stated in a Farman:
"In this manner if you eat and talk, what is the difference between dogs and donkeys and yourselves. What is the benefit of being a human having undergone the lakh chorasi cycles?. Having attained the status of man you have not taken heed and remained like donkeys and dogs. Having died and fallen into the lakh chorasi, of what benefit it is? Of what benefit it is of becoming a dog again after death? Reflect and try to recognise your status as Adam, Understand your status of a human form."
It appears that two views have been expressed by the Imam. From my perspective, for an Ismaili there is no rebirth in human or non-human forms except in extreme cases of disobedience. Otherwise we should all work for rebirth in the highest possible realm and if not then to other higher existences. The Pir Mursheed prays for us in this life and the hereafter and he can take us across towards our final destiny. Purification takes place in non-physical worlds as well.
For a person without an authentic Pir, reincarnation can take place in the physical world.
To illustrate the concept of reincarnation in the physical world, Paramahansa Yogananda gives an example of how he found one soul who died and was reborn in this world!.The whole story can be accessed at:
Chapter 28
Kashi, Reborn and Rediscovered
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap28.php
Do you still need more explanation?I have not seen any openness in the explanation which have been given time and again by various members to you. I don't think you are reading their post or their info. You are just here to advance your agenda. And this site has rules that do not allow that. Do not protest if I apply the rules and delete your account. You have been advised to read the rules and stop playing games. Last warning.
Do you still need the answers of your questions?
I know you have already received the correct answer above and in only one sentence by Admin so, there is no need to answer but.. Don't worry I will answer it, it is very simple question for me to give answer, first I need to read "Momin Chetawani" in Gujarati text because some words seems are not true so, just wait little more. as I told you, I am no go no where!
Last edited by agakhani on Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How do you qualify extreme cases of disobedience?kmaherali wrote: ...except in extreme cases of disobedience.
Is the act of certain groups [killing, looting, crime against humanity, etc...] are they qualified as such?
If so, these acts has been there historically.
So, if your assertion is true, then there's no exception.
This must be relief, then. We can set back and relax, because Pir can take us on to the other side?...kmaherali wrote: The Pir Mursheed prays for us in this life and the hereafter and he can take us across towards our final destiny.
I believe that Pir/Mursheed can only show us the path, and murid must walk on the path... so long as murid is on the path, it[this path] leads to final destination. Pir/Mursheed can not walk for you. Pir Mursheed even can't explain to you. All Pir does, is guide you/show you the [straight] path. It's our duty to remain on the right path, which will hopefully leads us to the final destination.
This [straight] path has been allegorized as sharper than a blade, thinner than a hair.
Dear Administration,
With ref. to your threat, I thought you people are broad minded, but not.
I have no agenda. I have not invented any new thing or idea in religion.
So far I have used and questioned from Ismaili printed material. I thought
this site is for learning also beside information.
I know the Gujrati language as well as ginans. the word shatru means enemy and word mulik means country. Please refer to parts 556 and 204,
205 fot these words. I have Momin Chetamani in Gujrati, English, and Urdu. I don't write any thing without proof. The meaning of this ginan on Heritage site is not complete and accurate. Please double check the meaning. The name of this site is " Ismaili Heritage " therefore the topics related to Ismailism with all aspects can be discussed on this site. The new Ismaili genration is asking plenty of questions, we have to reply and explain in proper way. Thanx again for your threat.
With ref. to your threat, I thought you people are broad minded, but not.
I have no agenda. I have not invented any new thing or idea in religion.
So far I have used and questioned from Ismaili printed material. I thought
this site is for learning also beside information.
I know the Gujrati language as well as ginans. the word shatru means enemy and word mulik means country. Please refer to parts 556 and 204,
205 fot these words. I have Momin Chetamani in Gujrati, English, and Urdu. I don't write any thing without proof. The meaning of this ginan on Heritage site is not complete and accurate. Please double check the meaning. The name of this site is " Ismaili Heritage " therefore the topics related to Ismailism with all aspects can be discussed on this site. The new Ismaili genration is asking plenty of questions, we have to reply and explain in proper way. Thanx again for your threat.
I think you also need to polish your English. The word to be use is "warning" not "threat"mazhar wrote:Dear Administration,
With ref. to your threat, I thought you people are broad minded, but not.
However if you do not undertand the "warning", I will surely delete your account and ban you from this Forum. This is what you can call a "threat".
Remember we are talking about our tariqah. I mentioned the disobedience within the context of the relationship between the murid and the Mursheed.tret wrote: How do you qualify extreme cases of disobedience?.
An example of extreme disobedience would be a Mukhi consuming Karsaji money. There is an anecdote about a Mukhi who used to consume Karsaji and after his death incarnated as a snake. He was given release by MSMS upon pleas from his family!
If you read my post carefully, I said "Otherwise we should all work for rebirth in the highest possible realm..."Of course work is involved, otherwise we would not have the JamatKhanas and other istitutions such as the AKU running!tret wrote: This must be relief, then. We can set back and relax, because Pir can take us on to the other side?....
However it is much efficient and easy to follow the path under the Mursheed than being alone. A two day journey with the Guide could take years without one. Also grace is a factor for final realization. The prayers of the Guide can help in this regard.
Actually when you are fatigued on the Path, the Pir can carry you further! There is a verse of a Ginan which states:tret wrote: Pir/Mursheed can not walk for you. Pir Mursheed even can't explain to you.
aavore maaraa muneevar bhaaiddaa hojee
tene kaa(n)dhe musalo ne sat srevo
eto chhe tam gurnee vaachaajee.............................2
Come o my brethren and believers. Lay the prayer mat upon His shoulders (let him support you spiritually) and worship (serve) the truth. This is the utterance of your Guide.
Explaining the Path is an important function of the Mursheed. There is a verses of a Ginan to that effect:
abdhu jo gur male to arath bataave, ane matte cheet kaa se(n)saa;
jal beenaa kamal na fulle, taaku(n) murakh jaanne ha(n)saa abdhu..7
O slave! if one meets a True Guide, He will explain the essence (hidden meaning) of existence; and will destroy the doubts of your mind. No lotus flower can bloom without water, in the same manner a fool (or ignoramus one) cannot know his/her soul without a Guide(water of the soul).
abdhu gur male to parachhe saadhu, gur beenaa baatt na paave;
geenaan ma(n)ddal maa(n) jal bal deevo deeshe, so gur beenaa haath na aave abdhu...................8
parachhe - understand, test
O slave! an aspirant is brought to the understanding(of the inner mysteries of the faith) when he/she meets the Guide, for without the Guide one cannot attain the Path. The Lamp (of understanding) that can be seen (experienced) at the gathering of knowledge (gnaan ma(n)ddal, jamaatkhaanaa), cannot become available without a Guide.
Actually he did not call himself Pir, he called himself Satgur which means 'the True Guide'. Infact in the same verse he refers to Pir Sadardeen and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen as Pirs and he calls himself satgur in contrast. The True Guide need not be a Pir.mazhar wrote: Though Syed Imam Shah was not a pir, but still he called himself a Pir.
1. DHAN DHAN TEY SATGUR IMAM SHAH NEY KAHIYEN
JEENEY SATGUREY GINAN KANTHIO VICHAAR. PART # 628.
SATGUREY JEEVU DHETHUN TEYVUN KAHIYUN
AAPNEY SAHU NEY JAAVUN CHHEY SAHEB NEY DUWAAR PAT # 630.
I think everyone here believes in the Qur'an. It is a matter of interpretation which causes the difference. Sharia means laws or rules which can change according to times.mazhar wrote: 2. Those who do not believe in Quran and Shariat, Please check these parts.
ILM ALLAH JI BHEJIA
FARD FARMAWIYA FURQAN MAHEN. PART # 8 (FURQAN MEANS QURAN )
FARD FURQANEY THI UPPANA
TEY TOU PARWARIYAPROTHAMI MAHEN
SHARIAT TARIQAT HAQIQAT
TENI MAILUM CHHEY MARIFAT MAHEN. PART # 9
TEY TOU KHOJJIA QURAN MINJAAR. part # 162
According to the Farman of MSMS, Pir Sadardeen has provided the tafsir of the Qur'an.
He might have been born in Subzwar but it is also possible that he went to Tabrez before travelling to the 24 countries.mazhar wrote: 3.Tabriz is used 2 times.Syed Imam Shah mentioned Pir Shams was from Tabriz, though he was from subzwar. PART 204,
PART 205.
The verse can be interpreted as the new phase of religion started by Pir Satgur Nur and it's foundation was Dasond. It does not mean Dasond started at that time. According to verses from Anant Akhado Dasond has existed since creation. It did not start in Arabia.mazhar wrote: 4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.
TEENEY BODHINEY KHOJA KAIYA
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM AACHAR
TIYAN THI SATPANTH CHALIO
DASWAND TANU VIAWAAR. PART # 199.
These are all symbollic expressions of heavenly experience which cannot be described in ordinary language. Our language is not equipped to communicate spiritual experiences, hence the use of symbollic language.mazhar wrote: 5. About Amrapuri means heaven, Syed Imam Shah mentions the SUNNI idea of heaven.
AMRAPURI MA NENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA
TEMA JAR TAR HERA MANEK PADARTH SAAR
SOWAN EENTEY TENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA
TEMA NAKHIYA CHHEY AMBER KASTURINA GGAR PART # 522.
HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523.
PANCH SAU MALLAIK TENA HUZUR MA RAHESEY
TE TOU FARMANI RAHESEY EY GHAR MINJAAR
TE TOU ASU JHALINEY UBHA RAHESEY
ANEY SAHIL KARAWEY SARAG MINJAAR. PART # 524 ( JUST IMAGINE 50 HURS, 500 SONS AND NO DAUGHRES )
He is Nabi Muhammad mentioned in verse 140. The Nabi was the Pir of the time who showed the path.mazhar wrote: 6. IN PART 139, who was sardar , for whom Mowla Ali said, obey Him so that you can get salvation.
It is not 40% but 1/40 (2.5%). 10 + 2.5 = 12.5. The 2.5% is the share of the Pir. Sayyed Imam Shah might have been authorised to collect it on the behalf of the Pir, just as Mukhi is at present.mazhar wrote: 7. Approx. in 70 parts he wrote to pay daswand, dhaan, and aahaar, but only few times on iman. Though he was not pir but insisted to pay 40% to him.
CHALIO AMARU AALJO
PIR MUREED NU EY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 142, PART 360
Mulak means countries.mazhar wrote: 8. Pir Shams visited 24 cities and not 24 countries.
TE TOU PHARIYA MULK CHOVEES MAHEN. PART # 205.
It is a mountain called Mayer wherein all the 21 heavens are kept. Perhaps this is symbollic of a heavenly mountain wherein all the heavenly treasures are hidden from the undeserving.mazhar wrote: 9. TE TOU IKVEESSARAG MAHEN JAGIYA PAMSEY
JE RAKHIYA CHHEY MIR PARBAT MINJAAR. PART # 528
What is this Mir Parbat?
The verse means: "Those who do not recognise the True Guide are the enemies".mazhar wrote: 10. SHATRU TE JE SATGUR NE JANEY NAHEN PART # 556
It means rest of the world or those Ismailis which are not from subcontinent khojas are enemies and are maha pappis (sinners).
What is Samdhi Rishta? Please clarify.mazhar wrote: 11. Allah said to Prophet that girl ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and her husband ( Mowla Ali ) is in my house.
Is this not a case of SAMDHI RISHTA.!!
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 108
Nabi and Ali are from one noor, so what is the problem?mazhar wrote: JIYAREY AY FARJAND MOTTA THAISEY
TIYAREY KARSUN TE DUNIYA NU AACHAAR
AMEY TAMEY DONU EEK CHHAIYEN ( PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS LINE )
TENU KAIN NA KARSHO VICHAAR PART # 109
He neglected the Imams because probably he composed these verses during the time of Imam Gharib Mirza. He did not mention the Imams after him.It does not imply that he left the Tariqah.mazhar wrote: 12. In part # 586, after mentioning Imam Islam Shah jumped to mention Imam Shah Garib Mirza, by neglecting Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansirbillah and Imam Abdus Salam. Our these Imams passed away in the life time of Syed Imam Shah. Not only these Imams but also. Imam Garib Mirza, Imam Abuzar Ali, Imam Murad Mirza and Imam
Zulfiqar Ali passed away in his life time. WHY HE NEGLECTED OUR THESE IMAMS.? OBVIOUSLY FATHER AND SON LEFT ISMAILI
TARIQA.
AAL E ALI TE SIRI ISLAM SHAH KAHEYIEN
TE SAMI SHAHGARIB MIRJA NU AVTAAR. PART # 586
Even HERITAGE has not properly translated this part at its site!
LOVERS OF GINANIC LITERATURE, PLEASE RESEARCH AND REPLY ALL ABOVE MENTIONED POINTS.
So, are you implying that re-incarnation is exclusively true for Ismailis alone? What about non-ismailies and even non-muslims who don't adhere to the notion of murid/mursheed? Are those exempt from re-incarnation and doesn't apply to them?kmaherali wrote: Remember we are talking about our tariqah. I mentioned the disobedience within the context of the relationship between the murid and the Mursheed.
An example of extreme disobedience would be a Mukhi consuming Karsaji money. There is an anecdote about a Mukhi who used to consume Karsaji and after his death incarnated as a snake. He was given release by MSMS upon pleas from his family!
If this notion of re-incarnation [back on earth] was true, it must apply to all race of mankind, and not exclusively to ismailis, unless the Imam means different [as indicated in higher sphere].
I don't want to believe that you are implying that Imam is contradicting himself; however, your above assertion does draw that conclusion.kmaherali wrote: It appears that two views have been expressed by the Imam. From my perspective, for an Ismaili there is no rebirth in human or non-human forms except in extreme cases of disobedience.
It's like black and white. Either re-birth on this earth is true or not! it can't be half and half or in some cases, etc...
You wish to believe that, fine with me. But, as far as I understand, the path to salvation must be travelled by the individual Mursheed can't walk on your behalf. Imam said once, you can take the horse to the water, but you can't make him drink. Or in this case you can't drink water on behalf of horse.kmaherali wrote: Actually when you are fatigued on the Path, the Pir can carry you further!
Dear Administration,
With ref," word to be use is warning not threat." You deleted my post addressed to Aghakhani and left his taunting post alive. You turned your warning into threat any how. I call it double standard. May be God has given you a magic finger to delete and disappear any post you don't like, or is not favourable to you or your friends.
With ref," word to be use is warning not threat." You deleted my post addressed to Aghakhani and left his taunting post alive. You turned your warning into threat any how. I call it double standard. May be God has given you a magic finger to delete and disappear any post you don't like, or is not favourable to you or your friends.
The notion of reincarnation is universal and not restricted to Ismailism. I even pointed to a link providing an anecdotal proof to that effect. I wonder if you read the chapter.tret wrote:So, are you implying that re-incarnation is exclusively true for Ismailis alone? What about non-ismailies and even non-muslims who don't adhere to the notion of murid/mursheed? Are those exempt from re-incarnation and doesn't apply to them?
If this notion of re-incarnation [back on earth] was true, it must apply to all race of mankind, and not exclusively to ismailis, unless the Imam means different [as indicated in higher sphere]..
However those who choose an authentic Mursheed as in our Tariqah, do not ascribe to it because the purpose of choosing a Mursheed is to break the cycle of rebirths and to become Fanna. There is a verse of a Ginan which states:
muktaa to fall tyaare laie, jyaare guru keeje neervaann re;
deheenaa paa(n)jar to falle, jo satgurnee maano aann;
bharam to bhaa(n)ge feraa to ttalle, jo jai puchho satgurnaa
geenaan..1
One can only obtain the path of salvation, if he/she has complete
faith and conviction in the True Guide;
The bodily cage will only bear fruit or succeed, if one follows
the commands of the True Guide;
Ignorance is only broken(erased), the cycles of rebirth can only
be destroyed, if one goes and seeks the guidance of the True
Guide..1
As I said rebirth for murids in most cases is non-physical. The exceptions are very very rare. Even the Mukhi who incarnated as a snake was released by the Imam.tret wrote:I don't want to believe that you are implying that Imam is contradicting himself; however, your above assertion does draw that conclusion.kmaherali wrote: It appears that two views have been expressed by the Imam. From my perspective, for an Ismaili there is no rebirth in human or non-human forms except in extreme cases of disobedience.
It's like black and white. Either re-birth on this earth is true or not! it can't be half and half or in some cases, etc...
Of course personal effort is important and I never implied otherwise. However the Mursheed does make things easier. As he has said if you walk one step towards me, I come ten steps towards you....tret wrote:You wish to believe that, fine with me. But, as far as I understand, the path to salvation must be travelled by the individual Mursheed can't walk on your behalf. Imam said once, you can take the horse to the water, but you can't make him drink. Or in this case you can't drink water on behalf of horse.kmaherali wrote: Actually when you are fatigued on the Path, the Pir can carry you further!