Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ?

[agakhani]

I do not understand why the peoples give more importance to the conferences and speeches which are addressed for general public and does not give more importance to the farmans which are specially delivered to the jamat!!?

[tret]

Of course the Imam will not use technical terms such as mazhar when writing for the general public, but he used the word manifested and mazhar is defined as the locus of manifestation. So yes he did indeed imply that.

I think the question was not about using the term "Mazhar" vs "Manifestation"; the question was that Imam never implied to be Mazhar [or Manifestation] of Essence of God, but rather The Divine Command.

Surah Ikhlas refers to the Essence of God, that one has to recognize in ITs unconditional absoluteness.

[agakhani]

Same old question here again!

Because present Quran is not complete quran! even if some one ignore that quran has been ommitted, changed and deleted many time before! but he can not denies that quran is complete.
H.Ali had real unchanged quran which he wanted to bring in light and therefore he tried to help in reconciliation Quran but reconciled committee refused to accept the real and unchangebyd Quran which H. Ali had.
Reserch has shown and many scholars from Shia sects agrees that in quran 10 paras are missing.

[Admin]

Definitely that subject will be a discussion between deaf people because not everyone calls Quran the present existing book.

Actually even Allah never called the present existing book as Quran. When Allah was talking of the Quran to our Holy Prophet (PBUH) this book which was compiled after the death of the Prophet was not in existence. But the Quran was.

Is that not true?

[tret]

Definitely that subject will be a discussion between deaf people because not everyone calls Quran the present existing book.

Actually even Allah never called the present existing book as Quran. When Allah was talking of the Quran to our Holy Prophet (PBUH) this book which was compiled after the death of the Prophet was not in existence. But the Quran was.

Is that not true?

And yet you recite ayats from the same Qur'an 3 times aday. Assuming you do your Du'a, obviously!

[Admin]

As I said, there is no answer to my question. I believe that only the Imam can validate today which parts of the compilation is accurate and I have no problem with that. I am delighted to find out from time to time from the Imam Himself which parts available today are also part of the Eternal Quran.

In any case, I hope once we delete all the hundreds of useless posts which really do not contribute anything, there will be some clarity left in all of the Forum.

[zznoor]

Definitely that subject will be a discussion between deaf people because not everyone calls Quran the present existing book.

Actually even Allah never called the present existing book as Quran. When Allah was talking of the Quran to our Holy Prophet (PBUH) this book which was compiled after the death of the Prophet was not in existence. But the Quran was.

Is that not true?

There was Suras written on scrolls and was in the house of Lady Hafsa RA. There were many Sahabas who had memorized the QURAN during lifetime of the Prophe SAW.
There is list of companion on net who memorized Quran.
I wish we take Kbhai's advice and stop this issue. It will not go away until Imam says either the existing Book is the Quran or he will write down complete book including 10 additional Sura and say this is the Quran by farmaan.
In the meanwhile please respect what we have.

[kmaherali]

Why would you not accept it. Accept it or show alternate! Hz Ali accepted it. He had all the powers to correct it.

Hz Ali accepted it because it was in the best interest of the unity of the Umma, just as he accepted the Caliphate of the first 3 Caliphs. So we should move on and live and work with it. MHI has also established the department of Qur'anic Studies at the IIS under his personal instruction.

[kmaherali]

I think the question was not about using the term "Mazhar" vs "Manifestation"; the question was that Imam never implied to be Mazhar [or Manifestation] of Essence of God, but rather The Divine Command.

Surah Ikhlas refers to the Essence of God, that one has to recognize in ITs unconditional absoluteness.

I mentioned in my earlier post that MHI told a group of scholars at the IIS that he was the Mazhar -i- dhat Illahi using the exact phrase. I was at the IIS and was told by a scholar! That is the basis of my conviction. You can consider me as a lier which is fine with me.

Surah Ikhlas is the zahir. The Mazhar is the batin.

Let us leave it at that and agree to disagree. In practical terms it makes no much difference. Whether the owner of a company calls himself a manager or the owner, he is still the owner. It is just to satisfy the needs of the customers that matters.

[kmaherali]

While we are on the subject of the Qur'an, there is interesting news....

World’s oldest Quran discovered

http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/ ... ali-30011/

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/en/news/pre ... islam.html

http://www.medievalhistories.com/sensat ... dentified/

http://idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165

http://www.coranica.de/

[tret]

Surah Ikhlas is the zahir. The Mazhar is the batin.

Please kindly elaborate what do you mean it's zahir and batin is Mazhar?

I don't believe to simply say this is zahir and this is batin is fair, unless you give reasonable explanation.


Let's assume for a second that batin is Mazhar; then can you tell me if there's any difference between Mzhar of God and God Himself?

[tret]

I believe that only the Imam can validate today which parts of the compilation is accurate and I have no problem with that.

Then, why don't we leave it at that? Reason is simply that you and I have no authority to have a say whether Qur'an is corrupt/outdated/old or anything like that. According to our tariqa, only Imam of the Time has the authority in religious matters. You step over your boundaries [your hadd] by saying so. That in ifself is na-farmaan-bardari!

I am delighted to find out from time to time from the Imam Himself which parts available today are also part of the Eternal Quran.

So have you heard from the Imam which parts of the Qur'an are part of Eternal Qur'an? I think it would help all to share this with us.

[Admin]

Live aside personal attack. In 100 years no one will know who you are and no one will know who I am. When you post, remember to live on this thread only what can be usefull to future generations.

No one has the right to criticize the Holy Quran. I personaly respect the Holy Quran probably more than you could ever imagine. The Holy Quran is protected by Allah. It can not be changed except by Allah. It is infaillible. It is not limited to human script or to number of pages. That would be an insult to Allah's power.

The discussion is only on various understanding of what the Quran is and what the Mushaf is.

Please come back to the thread.

As for your question, Imam has indicated many in his speeches, in his Farmans and also in the Dua.

[tret]

Live aside personal attack. In 100 years no one will know who you are and no one will know who I am. When you post, remember to live on this thread only what can be usefull to future generations.

No one has the right to criticize the Holy Quran. I personaly respect the Holy Quran probably more than you could ever imagine. The Holy Quran is protected by Allah. It can not be changed except by Allah. It is infaillible. It is not limited to human script or to number of pages. That would be an insult to Allah's power.

The discussion is only on various understanding of what the Quran is and what the Mushaf is.

Please come back to the thread.

As for your question, Imam has indicated many in his speeches, in his Farmans and also in the Dua.

Admin - I know exactly how you look at it. And that's what it should be.

But, again we can't say [simply because we don't have authority in religious matters] things like 'Qur'an was never supposed to be written' so on and so forth.

Remember, if Mauwla Ali accepted [for any reason], then who we are not to do so? When and If the Imam of the Time commanded, then we are to follow the Farmaan of the Imam. Until then, we should leave it to the Imam.

A slightly different question, but related:

- So you are saying Eternal Qur'an [some other say bolta Qur'an or speaking Qur'an] to refer to the Imam. Same people say Imam is God.

So question is here: Qur'an is WORD of God. [Islamic [and Ismailie] philosophers and theologians make a distinction between God and Word of God]. So, now which one is it? Word of God? or God Himself?

[Admin]

The thread is "Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ....."

[agakhani]

The thread is "Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ....."

I thought it was answered earlier that H. Adam was not the first human being on the earth.
Civilizations has been risesn and fallen many times before, many civilization have appeared and perished. so there is a reason to believe that many other cycles of human civilization may have appeared and disappeared before H. Adam!.
As per the giinanic evolution theory, this world has passed through different cycles of creation and civilization, so , the Adam, the progenitor of the present human race, is only the first link in the present cycle, and not the very first man on earth. now this is the ginanic proof but
below is scientific proof.
Most scholars believe Adam was born before 6-7 thousand years ago but recently scientist has find many evidences (fossils) of human beings before 7 thousand or even earlier of 7 thousands and after carbon dating of the bones and fossils they came at conclusion that human being was there before 7000 years!.This is a scientific proof that Adam was not the first man on this earth.

[kmaherali]

Please kindly elaborate what do you mean it's zahir and batin is Mazhar?

I don't believe to simply say this is zahir and this is batin is fair, unless you give reasonable explanation.?

According to my understanding the zahir is the apparent, something that is made visible to all. Batin is not something visible to all (public at large ) but it is something internal to our Tariah. In our Tariqah, the zahir is the official doctrine as stated in our constitution and reflected in our Dua explicitly. The Ikhlas as stated in our Dua reflects the expression of tawhid - the aspect of Divine Essence (zaat) without any partners, without form or attributes. The notion of the Mazhar of the Divine Essence as defined by the Imam himself is not an official doctrine and hence not apparent to all, but it is part of our tradition as expressed in the Farmans, Ginans and Qasidas

Let's assume for a second that batin is Mazhar; then can you tell me if there's any difference between Mzhar of God and God Himself?

I explained this in my earlier post when I alluded to MHI's statement: "Spirit and body are one in Islam". Please re-read it.

[kmaherali]

So question is here: Qur'an is WORD of God. [Islamic [and Ismailie] philosophers and theologians make a distinction between God and Word of God]. So, now which one is it? Word of God? or God Himself?

Prince Amyn made a very insightful speech on the subject which can be accessed at:

http://ismaili.net/speech/8901amyn.html

Quote:

"The written form of the Quran is the visible reflection of the eternal and for mankind the perpetual ability to glimpse the divine. Where most other Faiths make use of, or turn around, figural images to express their essential beliefs, the figural imagery of Islam is largely the written word, which is held up in opposition to the image. Since the words of the Koran are of Divine origin, both in form and content, it is natural that the word should become the sacred symbol of Islam.

The written word thus has from the outset, a symbolic content for Muslims which underlines and inspires the aesthetic significance that it developed as calligraphy grew to be a genuine art form. The written word as a symbol with both religious and aesthetic significance, is pervasive and is as important as it was several thousand years ago.

[Admin]

The written word as a symbol with both religious and aesthetic significance, is pervasive and is as important as it was several thousand years ago.

I am not sure that I understand what Prince Amyn alluded to when he said "several thousand years ago". One would have expected in the context of the lecture that he would say 14 hundred years ago?

[kmaherali]

I am not sure that I understand what Prince Amyn alluded to when he said "several thousand years ago". One would have expected in the context of the lecture that he would say 14 hundred years ago?

Looks like a typo, it could have been "several hundred years ago"

[Admin]

To be verified against delivery

[tret]

So question is here: Qur'an is WORD of God. [Islamic [and Ismailie] philosophers and theologians make a distinction between God and Word of God]. So, now which one is it? Word of God? or God Himself?

Prince Amyn made a very insightful speech on the subject which can be accessed at:

http://ismaili.net/speech/8901amyn.html

Quote:

"The written form of the Quran is the visible reflection of the eternal and for mankind the perpetual ability to glimpse the divine. Where most other Faiths make use of, or turn around, figural images to express their essential beliefs, the figural imagery of Islam is largely the written word, which is held up in opposition to the image. Since the words of the Koran are of Divine origin, both in form and content, it is natural that the word should become the sacred symbol of Islam.

The written word thus has from the outset, a symbolic content for Muslims which underlines and inspires the aesthetic significance that it developed as calligraphy grew to be a genuine art form. The written word as a symbol with both religious and aesthetic significance, is pervasive and is as important as it was several thousand years ago.

So what do you conclude from this passage? The difference between Word of God and God?

The notion of the Mazhar of the Divine Essence as defined by the Imam himself is not an official doctrine and hence not apparent to all, but it is part of our tradition as expressed in the Farmans, Ginans and Qasidas

Could you provide any reference, from Farmaan, Qasida/Ginan, that says "Imam is Mazhar of the Divine Essence"?

[kmaherali]

So what do you conclude from this passage? The difference between Word of God and God?"?

Word of God is a true art form. According to Hafiz a true work of art brings you closer to God. In his speech at an International Colloquium organised by The Institute of Ismaili Studies titled: ‘Word of God, Art of Man: The Qur’an and its Creative Expressions’ MHI explained the role of art:
http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101325

"Does not the Qur’an challenge the artist, as much as the mystic, to go beyond the physical - the outward - so as to seek to unveil that which lies at the centre but gives life to the periphery? Is not a great work of art, like the ecstasy of the mystic, a gesture of the spirit, a stirring of the soul that comes from the attempt to experience a glimpse of, and an intimacy with, that which is ineffable and beyond being?

The famous verse of ‘light’ in the Qur’an, the Ayat al-Nur, whose first line is rendered here in the mural behind me, inspires among Muslims a reflection on the sacred, the transcendent. It hints at a cosmos full of signs and symbols that evoke the perfection of Allah's creation and mercy. Many other verses of the Qur’an have similarly inspired calligraphy in all its forms, reminding us of the richness and vitality of Muslim traditions in the Arts"

Could you provide any reference, from Farmaan, Qasida/Ginan, that says "Imam is Mazhar of the Divine Essence"?

In a Farman MSMS says that Imams are the Ocean to which all souls return to.
I mentioned a reference to the Ginan in my earlier post.
Qasida:
There is a book called The Noor En Allah Noor which can be accessed online at:
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

On page no 11 there is reference to Kalame Pir by Nasir Khusraw on Imamat. He says: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

On page 108/9 there is a Qasida by Khaki Aleyma Rahema. Please read it.

[tret]

Word of God is a true art form. According to Hafiz a true work of art brings you closer to God. In his speech at an International Colloquium organised by The Institute of Ismaili Studies titled: ‘Word of God, Art of Man: The Qur’an and its Creative Expressions’ MHI explained the role of art:
http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101325

"Does not the Qur’an challenge the artist, as much as the mystic, to go beyond the physical - the outward - so as to seek to unveil that which lies at the centre but gives life to the periphery? Is not a great work of art, like the ecstasy of the mystic, a gesture of the spirit, a stirring of the soul that comes from the attempt to experience a glimpse of, and an intimacy with, that which is ineffable and beyond being?

The famous verse of ‘light’ in the Qur’an, the Ayat al-Nur, whose first line is rendered here in the mural behind me, inspires among Muslims a reflection on the sacred, the transcendent. It hints at a cosmos full of signs and symbols that evoke the perfection of Allah's creation and mercy. Many other verses of the Qur’an have similarly inspired calligraphy in all its forms, reminding us of the richness and vitality of Muslim traditions in the Arts"

I still don't see the connection. What I was asking you more was related to Ismaili cosmology. i.e. God, Divine Command [Amr|Word|Will], Intellect, Soul. Now, are you suggesting that there's no distinction between God [The Transcedent One] and Word [Command] of God?

On page no 11 there is reference to Kalame Pir by Nasir Khusraw on Imamat. He says: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

Okay, where does it imply that Imam is Mazhar of the Essence of God?
Imams are the beautiful names of God. Thus, The Name(s) and The Named are called the same. That's why most common people fall into error, saying that Imam is Allah. You need to distinguish between name and named, even they are called the same.

[kmaherali]

I still don't see the connection. What I was asking you more was related to Ismaili cosmology. i.e. God, Divine Command [Amr|Word|Will], Intellect, Soul. Now, are you suggesting that there's no distinction between God [The Transcedent One] and Word [Command] of God?.

You were only asking me about word of God and God. There was no mention about Ismaili Cosmology!
Nevertheless, obviously you have not read my previous posts. Did I not say that the Essence is the origin of all metaphysical structures and hence the Essence can be the Amr as well but not vice versa.

On page no 11 there is reference to Kalame Pir by Nasir Khusraw on Imamat. He says: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

Okay, where does it imply that Imam is Mazhar of the Essence of God?
Imams are the beautiful names of God. Thus, The Name(s) and The Named are called the same. That's why most common people fall into error, saying that Imam is Allah. You need to distinguish between name and named, even they are called the same.

According to the Ikhlas God is the Essence. This is what is said about God which refers to the Imams. Did you read the Qasida that I alluded to?

[ismaili103]

Okay, where does it imply that Imam is Mazhar of the Essence of God?
Imams are the beautiful names of God. Thus, The Name(s) and The Named are called the same. That's why most common people fall into error, saying that Imam is Allah. You need to distinguish between name and named, even they are called the same.

Here are the selected verse from qasida "Ali goyam Ali joyam"
in which you can find Imam is Allah. We have lots of Ginan available which clerly state that Ali os Allah but i think you only prefer Qasidas

Ali ruh o ravan-i man
Ali aram-i jan-i man
Ali zikr-i zaban-i man
Ali Guyam, Ali Joyam …2

Ali is my soul and life
Ali is the repose of my heart
At every moment my tongue recites Ali
I call Ali, I seek Ali

Ali Sultan-i mulk-i jan
Ali Shahan-Shah-i khuban
Ali Aineh-ye yazdan
Ali Guyam, Ali Joyam …3

Ali is the ruler of the kingdom of the soul
Ali is the emperor of the good
Ali is the mirror of god
I call Ali, I seek Ali

Ali Hallal-e mushkilha
Ali sultan o shah-e dil
Ali bashad be haq wasil
Ali Guyam, Ali Joyam …4

Ali is the solver of difficulties
Ali is the king and ruler of the heart
Ali is connected to reality
I call Ali, I seek Ali

Ali awal Ali akhir
Ali batin Ali zahir
Ali bahir Ali tahir
Ali Guyam, Ali Joyam …6


Ali the first, Ali the last
Ali the batin (spiritually present), Ali the zahir (physically present)
Ali the pure, Ali the zahir
I call Ali, I seek Ali

Zi ishq-I u shudam sabir
Be ru-ye u shudam nazir
Zaban as wasf-e u kasir
Ali Guyam, Ali Joyam …9

From his love, I have become patient
I have seen his face
The tongue cannot describe him
I call Ali, I seek Ali

[kmaherali]

- The non-human Avatars were not long term. The Imams manifested in non-human forms to perform certain short term tasks to create enabling conditions for the practice of faith for mankind (not only the murids). After the tasks were accomplished, they reverted back to their human forms. The details of the tasks I alluded to in my earlier post.

Just to elaborate on my above statement, I am quoting an extract from an article posted elsewhere in this forum about Allah manifesting himself in the form of a tree!

"There was another time when Allah manifested Himself in a much inferior form - one from vegetable kingdom - a tree. We all know and have seen it in the film, "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS." When on the mountain, Moses received his orders from God to go and free the Egyptian Jews. God talked to Moses through a tree or bush:

But when he (Moses) came to the fire, a voice was heard from the right bank of the valley, from a tree in hallowed ground:

"O Moses! Verily I am Allah, the Lord of the worlds....." (Quran 28: 3O)

Therefore, in this case the tree was Allah's mazhar - an object through which Allah chose to manifest Himself and communicate with Moses. Moses bowed down only in the direction of the mazhar (tree) and in no other direction though the omnipresent Allah was all around him. His forehead touched the rugged ground. After all, who can keep Allah from whatever mazhar He wants to manifest Himself through? It was His will to manifest Himself through a tree, so He did. Would it be sensible or Islamic to call Moses "kafir" for prostrating before a tree?"

The article can be referenced at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=7700

[agakhani]

Kbhai,
So, you think that Allah has taken a birth in vegetable during prophet Mosses time, that is interesting indeed but...

What is your opinion about fish, tortoise and half lion and half man avatars taken by God as mentioned in our ginans? were they also mazhars of Allah?

[kmaherali]

Kbhai,
So, you think that Allah has taken a birth in vegetable during prophet Mosses time, that is interesting indeed but...

What is your opinion about fish, tortoise and half lion and half man avatars taken by God as mentioned in our ginans? were they also mazhars of Allah?

I did not say Allah took birth as a tree. I said that Allah manifested as a tree, there is a difference. Allah can manifest himself in any form to fulfil his purpose. Of course he manifested himself as the Das Avtars.

The point I was trying to make is that Allah manifested himself in non-human form even after Hazarat Adam! The non-human forms were not restricted to pre-Adam Avatars.

[Admin]

just added:

The prophetic Figure of Adam within the Fatimid Tradition

In this monograph prepared in 1991 for presentation at the SOS Khojki Conference organised by the Heritage Society, Professor Shin Nomoto discusses the role of Adam in history from the point of view of two sources of Fatimid Origin:

1) From the Kitak al-Riyad of Da'i Hami al-Din Khirmani(d.1021AD) with reference to the debate on Adam's Prophecy by Abu Hatim al-razi (d.935) and Abu Yaqub Sijistani.

2) The second sources used in this monograph is from the 13th Century Tayyibi Da'i husayn b. Ali b. Muhammad b. al-Walid (d.1298)

15 pages in PDF format. The file can be downloaded from:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/31705

Scroll bottom to download link.