is Hazir Imam more than an Intercessor?

[southyam]

I have a constant debate with my ismaili friends and family and I want to receive some more insight on this opinion.

I was under the impression that Hazir Imam was our Intercessor, meaning we pray to Allah through him.

However I have recently read Abu Ali (wayzeen from Vancouver) speech on how ITREB had demoted Hazir Imam's position to that of an intercessor.

My question is do we believe that we pray Through Our Imam to Allah?

OR

Do We pray directly TO HIS NOOR?

[kmaherali]

In our tradition there have been two important roles since the beginning; the office of the Imam and that of the Pir. At times these roles were manifested in separate individuals as in the case of Pir Sadardeen and Imam Islam Shah; at other times such as the present the roles are combined in one person - Shah Karim is both the Pir and the Imam.

The role of the Peer (Musheed) is to guide a murid to the Imam (the Godhead). The Peer is the Intercessor who accepts the responsibility to guide a murid and purify him for salvation in this life and the next. The Imam is the ultimate destiny.

As stated in a verse of the ginan 'Allah ek Khasam sabuka':

"Nabi Muhammad bujo bhai to tame paamo Imaam"

Meaning:

"Recognised the Prophet (Peer) so that you may attain the Imam (the ultimate destination."

At present since the Imam is performing both roles, he is the Intercessor as well as the object of intercession.

[ShamsB]

As stated in a verse of the ginan 'Allah ek Khasam sabuka':

"Nabi Muhammad bujo bhai to tame paamo Imaam"

Meaning:

"Recognised the Prophet (Peer) so that you may attain the Imam (the ultimate destination."

In the same ginan there is a phrase:

"Allah Ehi Imam"

Meaning:
Allah is the Imam.

Shams

[zubair_mahamood]

In the same ginan there is a phrase:

"Allah Ehi Imam"

Meaning:
Allah is the Imam.

Shams

I think we all are in different stages of Faith so it’s not easy to accept Allah is The Imam, question like this will always arise. I agree with Kmaherali.

We must not forget zahir (exoteric) and batin (esoteric) side of our faith. What we see zahir (physical state of Hazar Imam) helps us to reach the Batin (The Noor or Allah or The Hidden Truth). So if one say Imam is Intercessor then it mean Zahir state of Imam and when one say Imam is Allah he refers to Batin side of Imam, it’s important to understand and recognise zahir and batin for practicing Faith.

[kmaherali]

Absolutely Zubair. It also brings about the strength of our diversity. Some Jamats such as those in the Nasir Khusraw tradition emphasised the Zaheri or the intercessor aspect of Imamat whereas the Ginanic tradition emphasized the godhead aspect of the Imam and ascribed the intercessor aspect to the Pir.

What matters is that the diversity of historical background provides the flexibility for the murid to choose whatever he/she is comfortable with as a starting point in his/her spiritual journey, hopefully attaining the Batini or the inner understanding ultimately.

[sheri]

So MHI today is a Prophet (Peer) and an IMAM?

As stated in a verse of the ginan 'Allah ek Khasam sabuka':

"Nabi Muhammad bujo bhai to tame paamo Imaam"

Meaning:

"Recognised the Prophet (Peer) so that you may attain the Imam (the ultimate destination."

At present since the Imam is performing both roles, he is the Intercessor as well as the object of intercession.

[tret]

So MHI today is a Prophet (Peer) and an IMAM?

As stated in a verse of the ginan 'Allah ek Khasam sabuka':

"Nabi Muhammad bujo bhai to tame paamo Imaam"

Meaning:

"Recognised the Prophet (Peer) so that you may attain the Imam (the ultimate destination."

At present since the Imam is performing both roles, he is the Intercessor as well as the object of intercession.

From the Qur'an:

"And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Repeated Ones and the Great Qur’an."
- Holy Quran 15:87


God has created the earth in 6 days and perfected in the 7th, is also one of the verses of the Qur'an.


The 6 days is symbolizing the 6 major Prophets (or Natiqs) who had their Wasi/Asas (or Legatees). The Prophets received the revelation and delivering the Tanzil (Exoteric) interpretation of the revelation where the Asas/Wasi (Legatee) were delivering the Tahwil (Esoteric) interpretation of the revelations. The 6 days or cycles are symbolizing the 6 major Prophets, were Adam, Noha, Shies, Ibrahim, Jesus and Muhammad. The seventh Prophet shall be the Qai'm (subhat), who shall reveal the truth (Qiamat). Between each Major prophets there were 7 cycles of Wasi. After Prophet Muhammad, when the Din was perfected, there will not come any other prophets, and the institution of Imamat will continue, until the last prophet (Qai'm). Every 7th Imam -- as we history witnessed -- the 7th Imam is the loard of ressurection. Our current MHI the 49th Imam is the 7th of 7 is the beginning cycle [Daw'r] of the Ressurection. In this cycle, the mandate of Imamat extends beyond Jama'at and Ismailies at a global scale, as we witness today with activities of the Imamat institutions.

So while we can't say Imam is the Prophet, but Imam status is as Natiq and Imam's Hujjat's status is as Wasi. Natiq delivers the Tanzil of the revelation, and Wasi the Tahwil. Imam again delivers the Tanzil of the revelation, where the Hujjat of the Imam the Tah'wil. Today, MHI is the Imam and Pir[Hujjat] (Shah/Pir), so HE delivers the Tanzil as well the Tahwil of the revelation.

[sheri]

Do you see any contradiction in this statement?

After Prophet Muhammad, when the Din was perfected, there will not come any other prophets, and the institution of Imamat will continue, until the last prophet (Qai'm).

[tret]

Do you see any contradiction in this statement?

After Prophet Muhammad, when the Din was perfected, there will not come any other prophets, and the institution of Imamat will continue, until the last prophet (Qai'm).

The key is untill the day of Qiamat (The Qai'm or Subhat)

[sheri]

So after the last prophet, there will be another last prophet to do the Day of Judgement.

By that rational, Holy Prophet was not the last prophet. This goes against the fundamental belief of Ismailiam that Muhammad is the "last" and "final" prophet.

Do you see any contradiction in this statement?

After Prophet Muhammad, when the Din was perfected, there will not come any other prophets, and the institution of Imamat will continue, until the last prophet (Qai'm).

The key is untill the day of Qiamat (The Qai'm or Subhat)

[tret]

So after the last prophet, there will be another last prophet to do the Day of Judgement.

By that rational, Holy Prophet was not the last prophet. This goes against the fundamental belief of Ismailiam that Muhammad is the "last" and "final" prophet.

Do you see any contradiction in this statement?

The key is untill the day of Qiamat (The Qai'm or Subhat)

All 6th Prophets had one thing in common. They all received divine revelations. They made ummah 'work'. However, the Qai'm (Lord of Resurrection) will not have any revelation. So, He will be a Prophet, but not a messenger. The 7th Prophet shall reward the ummah for the 'work' they have done. It will be the day of glory, where justice will fill the world and the truth shall be revealed to the entire mankind.

So, to be specific the Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet who received the revelation, and there won't be any other prophet after Him to receive any divine revelation.

[sheri]

And who told you all this? Is there a Farman?

It is again based on interpretations of individuals who have tried to make sense of things in the environments they historically lived in.

If this thought is not present in the current IMAMs farmans' then it is only an interpretation by Pirs, Rumi, Khalil etc.

It can be right and it can be wrong, it is not a given fact.

[tret]

And who told you all this? Is there a Farman?

It is again based on interpretations of individuals who have tried to make sense of things in the environments they historically lived in.

If this thought is not present in the current IMAMs farmans' then it is only an interpretation by Pirs, Rumi, Khalil etc.

It can be right and it can be wrong, it is not a given fact.

It's based on the interpretation of the verse of the Qur'an that I posted on 'seven repeated'

[sheri]

My interpretation:

"And We have bestowed upon thee (Muhammed) the Seven Repeated Ones and the Great Qur’an."
- Holy Quran 15:87

Bestowed is in the past, so the 7 "repeated ones" have already been bestowed on the holy prophet. After which Allah bestowed upon him the Quran.

There is no reference in here for another prophet to appear.

[tret]

My interpretation:

"And We have bestowed upon thee (Muhammed) the Seven Repeated Ones and the Great Qur’an."
- Holy Quran 15:87

Bestowed is in the past, so the 7 "repeated ones" have already been bestowed on the holy prophet. After which Allah bestowed upon him the Quran.

There is no reference in here for another prophet to appear.

Allah is not time bound, so statements made in the past/present/future are not applicable to Allah. To him, is all present.

[sheri]

Sure, that is your understanding from the Quranic reference. I provided you mine. Unless, the IMAM tell us which of us is right about these interpretations, we can believe whatever we believe.

Allah is not time bound, so statements made in the past/present/future are not applicable to Allah. To him, is all present.

[tret]

Sure, that is your understanding from the Quranic reference. I provided you mine. Unless, the IMAM tell us which of us is right about these interpretations, we can believe whatever we believe.

Allah is not time bound, so statements made in the past/present/future are not applicable to Allah. To him, is all present.

I couldn't agree more. That's the beauty of pluralism.

[sheri]

So, He will be a Prophet, but not a messenger. The 7th Prophet shall reward the ummah for the 'work' they have done. It will be the day of glory, where justice will fill the world and the truth shall be revealed to the entire mankind.

So, to be specific the Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet who received the revelation, and there won't be any other prophet after Him to receive any divine revelation.

The Ismaili constitution clearly states:

(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final "Prophet" of Allah.

[tret]

So, He will be a Prophet, but not a messenger. The 7th Prophet shall reward the ummah for the 'work' they have done. It will be the day of glory, where justice will fill the world and the truth shall be revealed to the entire mankind.

So, to be specific the Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet who received the revelation, and there won't be any other prophet after Him to receive any divine revelation.

The Ismaili constitution clearly states:

(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final "Prophet" of Allah.

I would take this in a sense that there won't be any new revelation. But, again it's me. You are welcome to differ.

[sheri]

You are going back and forth with your definition of "Prophet." The constitution clearly says "Muhammad is the last and final prophet."

So, He will be a Prophet, but not a messenger. The 7th Prophet shall reward the ummah for the 'work' they have done. It will be the day of glory, where justice will fill the world and the truth shall be revealed to the entire mankind.

So, to be specific the Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet who received the revelation, and there won't be any other prophet after Him to receive any divine revelation.

The Ismaili constitution clearly states:

(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final "Prophet" of Allah.

I would take this in a sense that there won't be any new revelation. But, again it's me. You are welcome to differ.

[zznoor]

My interpretation:

"And We have bestowed upon thee (Muhammed) the Seven Repeated Ones and the Great Qur’an."
- Holy Quran 15:87

Bestowed is in the past, so the 7 "repeated ones" have already been bestowed on the holy prophet. After which Allah bestowed upon him the Quran.

There is no reference in here for another prophet to appear.

Allah is not time bound, so statements made in the past/present/future are not applicable to Allah. To him, is all present.

[Shakir 15:87] And certainly We have given you seven of the oft-repeated (verses) and the grand Quran.
Pooya/Ali comment
The seven oft-repeated verses of al Fatihah sum up the whole teaching of the glorious Quran, and constitute the most precious gift to a Muslim.
Shakir, Pooya and Ali are Shia Muslim

[sheri]

Now we have another interpretation to the list. Is tret correct? Is zznoor/pooya/Ali correct? Is sheri correct?

I reiterate - only the IMAM's interpretation is correct. That's it.

My interpretation:

"And We have bestowed upon thee (Muhammed) the Seven Repeated Ones and the Great Qur’an."
- Holy Quran 15:87

Bestowed is in the past, so the 7 "repeated ones" have already been bestowed on the holy prophet. After which Allah bestowed upon him the Quran.

There is no reference in here for another prophet to appear.

Allah is not time bound, so statements made in the past/present/future are not applicable to Allah. To him, is all present.

[Shakir 15:87] And certainly We have given you seven of the oft-repeated (verses) and the grand Quran.
Pooya/Ali comment
The seven oft-repeated verses of al Fatihah sum up the whole teaching of the glorious Quran, and constitute the most precious gift to a Muslim.
Shakir, Pooya and Ali are Shia Muslim

[zznoor]

Now we have another interpretation to the list. Is tret correct? Is zznoor/pooya/Ali correct? Is sheri correct?

I reiterate - only the IMAM's interpretation is correct. That's it.

Ever wonder since Gadhir to this day and 49 imams there is no authentic interpretation of 15:87!

[tret]

Now we have another interpretation to the list. Is tret correct? Is zznoor/pooya/Ali correct? Is sheri correct?

I reiterate - only the IMAM's interpretation is correct. That's it.

Ever wonder since Gadhir to this day and 49 imams there is no authentic interpretation of 15:87!

What would you consider as authentic?

[shiraz.virani]

The meaning of saban minel mathani (seven from pairs) has been interpreted by the majority of scholars as "oft-repeated seven," implying the most repeated chapter of the Quran, the seven versed first chapter.

However, if the first chapter of the Quran is part of the Quran, it surely is the part of the "great Quran." If the arrangement of the words were different like "we gave you the great Quran and seven from pairs," then, such an interpretation could be more plausible, since a part of the whole can be repeated after the whole for the purpose of emphasis.

If the "great Quran" is the entire Quran, which is the most reasonable understanding, then the "seven pairs" or "fourteen" (of something) might have implications beyond the Quran

[zznoor]

tret

What would you consider as authentic?

Anything posted on this site which says "MHI says this Aya means this"

[shiraz.virani]

The meaning of saban minel mathani (seven from pairs) has been interpreted by the majority of scholars as "oft-repeated seven," implying the most repeated chapter of the Quran, the seven versed first chapter.

However, if the first chapter of the Quran is part of the Quran, it surely is the part of the "great Quran." If the arrangement of the words were different like "we gave you the great Quran and seven from pairs," then, such an interpretation could be more plausible, since a part of the whole can be repeated after the whole for the purpose of emphasis.

If the "great Quran" is the entire Quran, which is the most reasonable understanding, then the "seven pairs" or "fourteen" (of something) might have implications beyond the Quran

[zznoor]

From Tafseer Ibn Katheer

(15:87. And indeed, We have bestowed upon you seven of the Mathani, and the Grand Qur'an.)
(15:88. Look not with your eyes ambitiously at what We have given to certain classes of them, nor grieve over them. And lower your wings to the believers.)

Allah is saying to His Prophet : Since We have given you the Grand Qur'an, then do not look at this world and its attractions, or the transient delights that we have given to its people in order to test them. Do not envy what they have in this world, and do not upset yourself with regret for their rejection of you and their opposition to your religion.

(And lower your wings to the believers who follow you) (26:215) meaning - be gentle with them, like the Ayah,

(Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger from among yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He is anxious for you, for the believers - he is full of pity, kind and merciful)(9:128).

There were some differences among the scholars over the meaning of "seven of the Mathani''. Ibn Mas`ud, Ibn `Umar, Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ad-Dahhak and others said that they are the seven long (Surahs), meaning Al-Baqarah, Al- `Imran, An-Nisa', Al-Ma'idah, Al-An`am, Al-A`raf and Yunus. There are texts to this effect reported from Ibn `Abbas and Sa`id bin Jubayr. Sa`id said:

"In them, Allah explains the obligations, the Hudud (legal limits), stories and rulings.'' Ibn `Abbas said, "He explains the parables, stories and lessons.''

The second opinion is that they (the seven of the Mathani) are Al-Fatihah, which is composed of seven Ayat. This was reported from `Ali, `Umar, Ibn Mas`ud and Ibn `Abbas. Ibn `Abbas said:

"The Bismillah, is completing seven Ayah, which Allah has given exclusively to you (Muslims).''

This is also the opinion of Ibrahim An-Nakha`i, `Abdullah bin `Umayr, Ibn Abi Mulaykah, Shahr bin Hawshab, Al-Hasan Al-Basri and Mujahid. Al-Bukhari, may Allah have mercy on him, recorded two Hadiths on this topic. (The first) was recorded from Abu Sa`id bin Al-Mu`alla, who said: "The Prophet passed by me while I was praying. He called out for me but I did not come until I finished my prayer. Then I came to him, and He asked,

(What stopped you from coming to me) I said, `I was praying'. He said,

(`Did not Allah say

(O you who believe! Answer Allah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you...) 8:24

(Shall I not teach you the most magnificent Surah before I leave the Masjid) Then the Prophet went to leave the Masjid, and I reminded him, so he said,

("Al-Hamdu Lillahi Rabbil-'Alamin; All praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of all that exists)(1:2).

(This is the seven of the Mathani and the Qur'an which I have been given.)'' (The second Hadith) was reported from Abu Hurayrah who said that the Messenger of Allah said:

(Umm Al-Qur'an (the Mother or the Essence of the Qur'an,) is the seven Mathani, and the Grand Qur'an.) This means that Al-Fatihah is the seven Mathani and the Grand Qur'an, but this does not contradict the statement that the seven Mathani are the seven long Surahs, because they also share these attributes, as does the whole Qur'an. As Allah says,

(Allah has sent down the best statement, a Book (this Qur'an), its parts resembling each other in goodness and truth, oft-recited) (39:23). So it is oft-recited in one way, and its parts resemble one another in another way, and this is also the Grand Qur'an.

(Look not with your eyes ambitiously at what We have given to certain classes of them) ﴿20: 131﴾ meaning, be content with the Grand Qur'an that Allah has given to you, and do not long for the luxuries and transient delights that they have.

(Look not with your eyes ambitiously) Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said: "He ﴿in this Ayah﴾ forbade a man to wish for what his companion has.''

(at what We have given to certain classes of them,) Mujahid said: "This refers to the rich.''

[shiraz.virani]

noor said :

From Tafseer Ibn Katheer

(15:87. And indeed, We have bestowed upon you seven of the Mathani, and the Grand Qur'an.)
(15:88. Look not with your eyes ambitiously at what We have given to certain classes of them, nor grieve over them. And lower your wings to the believers.)

Allah is saying to His Prophet : Since We have given you the Grand Qur'an, then do not look at this world and its attractions, or the transient delights that we have given to its people in order to test them. Do not envy what they have in this world, and do not upset yourself with regret for their rejection of you and their opposition to your religion.

(And lower your wings to the believers who follow you) (26:215) meaning - be gentle with them, like the Ayah,

(Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger from among yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He is anxious for you, for the believers - he is full of pity, kind and merciful)(9:128).

There were some differences among the scholars over the meaning of "seven of the Mathani''. Ibn Mas`ud, Ibn `Umar, Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ad-Dahhak and others said that they are the seven long (Surahs), meaning Al-Baqarah, Al- `Imran, An-Nisa', Al-Ma'idah, Al-An`am, Al-A`raf and Yunus. There are texts to this effect reported from Ibn `Abbas and Sa`id bin Jubayr. Sa`id said:

"In them, Allah explains the obligations, the Hudud (legal limits), stories and rulings.'' Ibn `Abbas said, "He explains the parables, stories and lessons.''

The second opinion is that they (the seven of the Mathani) are Al-Fatihah, which is composed of seven Ayat. This was reported from `Ali, `Umar, Ibn Mas`ud and Ibn `Abbas. Ibn `Abbas said:

"The Bismillah, is completing seven Ayah, which Allah has given exclusively to you (Muslims).''

This is also the opinion of Ibrahim An-Nakha`i, `Abdullah bin `Umayr, Ibn Abi Mulaykah, Shahr bin Hawshab, Al-Hasan Al-Basri and Mujahid. Al-Bukhari, may Allah have mercy on him, recorded two Hadiths on this topic. (The first) was recorded from Abu Sa`id bin Al-Mu`alla, who said: "The Prophet passed by me while I was praying. He called out for me but I did not come until I finished my prayer. Then I came to him, and He asked,

(What stopped you from coming to me) I said, `I was praying'. He said,

(`Did not Allah say

(O you who believe! Answer Allah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you...) 8:24

(Shall I not teach you the most magnificent Surah before I leave the Masjid) Then the Prophet went to leave the Masjid, and I reminded him, so he said,

("Al-Hamdu Lillahi Rabbil-'Alamin; All praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of all that exists)(1:2).

(This is the seven of the Mathani and the Qur'an which I have been given.)'' (The second Hadith) was reported from Abu Hurayrah who said that the Messenger of Allah said:

(Umm Al-Qur'an (the Mother or the Essence of the Qur'an,) is the seven Mathani, and the Grand Qur'an.) This means that Al-Fatihah is the seven Mathani and the Grand Qur'an, but this does not contradict the statement that the seven Mathani are the seven long Surahs, because they also share these attributes, as does the whole Qur'an. As Allah says,

(Allah has sent down the best statement, a Book (this Qur'an), its parts resembling each other in goodness and truth, oft-recited) (39:23). So it is oft-recited in one way, and its parts resemble one another in another way, and this is also the Grand Qur'an.

(Look not with your eyes ambitiously at what We have given to certain classes of them) ﴿20: 131﴾ meaning, be content with the Grand Qur'an that Allah has given to you, and do not long for the luxuries and transient delights that they have.

(Look not with your eyes ambitiously) Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said: "He ﴿in this Ayah﴾ forbade a man to wish for what his companion has.''

(at what We have given to certain classes of them,) Mujahid said: "This refers to the rich.''

LOL.....all I could do is laugh at this interpretation but if you think this is a valid interpretation for you then congratulations !!!

Btw...You still haven't answered my question that i asked you in the history section i.e Pre Adam

khair, I'll ask you over here :

Zznoor, I'm not a huge fan of hadiths...but since you are, I would like you to interpret this following hadith in your own words.

Sahih Muslim Book 32...H number 6325

Chapter : It is forbidden to strike at the face.

This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Huraira and in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Hatim Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) is reported to have said: When any one of you fights with his brother, he should avoid his face for Allah created Adam in His own image

Please note that I'm not pointing any gun at you nor Im supporting Ali Allah theory here. I just wanna know your point of view @ this Sahih Hadith.

[zznoor]

Br Shiraz
You can laugh all you want.
It is not easy to analyze Ahadith. They exist in both Shia and Sunni world. They even exist in Ismaili world in the form of saying of Imams.