That first 3calips didn't participated in burial of Prophet!
That first 3calips didn't participated in burial of Prophet!
Did you know that First three caliphs 1, Hazart Abu Bakar 2, Hazarat Umar and 3, Hazarat Usman did not participated in burial of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)? but Hazarat Ali (s.a.) did!!!!!
Last edited by agakhani on Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: That first 3 calips didn't participated in burial of Pro
How could they? When the Prophet died they all went to Saqifa for more important issues.agakhani wrote:Did you know that First three caliphs 1, Hazart Abu Bakar 2, Hazarat Umar and 3, Hazarat Usman did not participated in burial of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)? but Hazarat Ali (s.a.) did!!!!!
Its not that burial of the prophet was not important, but they had more important issues like
1. What will the death of the Prophet mean to the young State of Medina and to the Muslim umma?
2. Who would succeed Muhammad as the new head of the State of Medina when he dies?
3. What will be the status of the Ansar after the death of Muhammad? Would the new head of the State be just as fair and impartial as he is?
4. Would the Ansar still be masters in their own home – Medina – after the death of the Prophet?
What good would it do to bury a dead Prophet and ignore the live problems like successor-ship ?
And when Ahu Bakr became caliph, he made Yazid, the son of Abu Sufyan, a general in his army.
When Umar was made Caliph, Yazid was promoted to governor of Syria.
When Yazid died, Umar made his younger brother, Muawiya, the new governor of Syria.
When Uthman was made Caliph, Umayyads were ruling every province in the empire and they were commanding every division in the army.
Look at the achievements.
Would these achievements had been achieved if Abu Bakr and Umar had buried the Prophet?
Re: That first 3 calips didn't participated in burial of Pro
Just add, these Caliphs were inspired by God to collect and compile a book from scattered fragments of written verses on palm branches, flat stones, and shoulder blades and verses in the people’s memory.a_27826 wrote:How could they? When the Prophet died they all went to Saqifa for more important issues.agakhani wrote:Did you know that First three caliphs 1, Hazart Abu Bakar 2, Hazarat Umar and 3, Hazarat Usman did not participated in burial of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)? but Hazarat Ali (s.a.) did!!!!!
Its not that burial of the prophet was not important, but they had more important issues like
1. What will the death of the Prophet mean to the young State of Medina and to the Muslim umma?
2. Who would succeed Muhammad as the new head of the State of Medina when he dies?
3. What will be the status of the Ansar after the death of Muhammad? Would the new head of the State be just as fair and impartial as he is?
4. Would the Ansar still be masters in their own home – Medina – after the death of the Prophet?
What good would it do to bury a dead Prophet and ignore the live problems like successor-ship ?
And when Ahu Bakr became caliph, he made Yazid, the son of Abu Sufyan, a general in his army.
When Umar was made Caliph, Yazid was promoted to governor of Syria.
When Yazid died, Umar made his younger brother, Muawiya, the new governor of Syria.
When Uthman was made Caliph, Umayyads were ruling every province in the empire and they were commanding every division in the army.
Look at the achievements.
Would these achievements had been achieved if Abu Bakr and Umar had buried the Prophet?
If you have a book titled "Quran", then it’s because of these three people, otherwise we would have been lost.
Prophet SAW's funeralAdmin wrote:No need to get excited over a simple interesting question. If you have nothing to contribute to the topic, there is no compulsion to participate in this subject.
Excepts of funeral from:
Chapter: last illness
Sirat Rasoul Allah
The earliest biography of Muhammad, by ibn Ishaq
An abridged version
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sira/index.htm
Another account from:The apostle of Allah died, at noon on Monday.
Abu Bakr arrived, and alighted at the door of the mosque while Umar was talking thus. But he took no notice, and went in to see the body of the apostle in the house of Aisha. It was laid out and shrouded with a striped mantle. This he removed from the face of the apostle and, kissing it, said, 'Thou art to me as my father and mother! Thou hast tasted the death which Allah decreed for thee; but after it, no death will ever come to thee again.' Then he covered the face of the apostle and went out.
On Tuesday, after allegiance had been paid to Abu Bakr, the people made preparations for the burial of the apostle of Allah. Ali, al‑Abbas and his sons al‑Fadl and Qutham, with Usama and Shuqran, took it upon themselves to wash the corpse. Ali leaned the body against his own breast, while al‑Abbas, al‑Fadl and Qutham helped to turn him. Usama and Shuqran poured the water whilst Ali washed him. Ali said, 'Thou art my father and my mother! How beautiful thou art, alive and dead.' And there was nothing distasteful, as with other dead bodies, in the corpse of the apostle of Allah.
Aisha said, 'When they were about to wash the apostle, they disagreed and said, "By Allah! We do not know whether we ought to strip the apostle of Allah as corpses are usually stripped, or whether to wash him in his clothes". As they were discussing, Allah sent sleep upon them so that there was not a man among them who did not slumber; and they heard a voice which they knew not, saying, " Wash the prophet in his garments! " They rose and washed the apostle of Allah in his shirt, pouring water over it, and rubbing it with their hands, so that the shirt was between their hands and the body.' After the washing had been completed, the apostle was wrapped in three garments.
When the body had been arranged and laid out on the couch in his own house the Muslims knew not where to bury him. One said, 'Let us bury him in his mosque.' Another said, 'Let us bury him with his companions.' And Abu Bakr said, 'I have heard the apostle of Allah say that every prophet should be buried on the spot where he died.' Accordingly the bed on which the apostle had been resting was lifted up, and the grave dug under it. But there was doubt about the form of the grave.
Abu Ubayda was accustomed to dig graves plainly, according to the fashion of Mecca , but Abu Talha, the grave‑digger of Medina , dug them in a vaulted shape. Al‑Abbas therefore called two men, and said to one of them, 'Go to Abu Ubayda', and to the other, 'Go to Abu Talha.' He added, 'Allah, choose for Thy apostle.' Abu Ubayda could not be found, but the man who went to Abu Talha found him and brought him; so he dug the grave of the apostle in the Medina fashion.
Then the men entered in throngs to pray for him. When they had completed their devotions the women came in; and when they had finished the children came. Yet no one had directed the people to visit the corpse of the apostle of Allah.
The apostle of Allah was buried in the middle of the night on Wednesday. Aisha said, 'We knew nothing about the burial of the apostle until we heard the sound of pickaxes in the middle of the night.' Those who went down into the grave of the apostle were the same men as washed the corpse. When the apostle had been laid in the grave and it was to be built up, his freed slave, Shuqran, took a wrapper which the apostle had used often and worn out; and, burying it in the grave, he said, 'No one shall wear it after thee.' It remained interred with the apostle.
http://www.islamiclandmarks.com/saudi/m ... barak.html
Also View plan and size of Prophet's burial chamber at same web site.Death and burial of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him)
In Muharram 11 AH the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) developed a temperature which kept getting higher and he became increasingly ill day by day. He sought permission from his wives to stay in the room of Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) which they readily acceded to. On Monday, 12 Rabi al-Awwal, he came out with a bandage tied around his head. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) was leading the salat and moved backwards but the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) motioned him to complete the prayer.
Among the last advice the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) gave out was the importance of prayer and the just treatment of slaves and servants. In closing he said:“I leave with you two things. As long as you hold them tightly, you will never go astray; they are the Book of Allah (the Quran) and my sunnah.”
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) grew weaker and eventually passed away on the afternoon of Monday, 12 Rabiul-Awwal, 11 AH (633 CE).
The companions offered funeral prayers individually, without an Imam. The people said: “Bury him near the pulpit.” Others said, “Bury him in Baqi.” Then Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) came and said, “I heard the Prophet of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) saying: ‘A Prophet was never buried except at the place where he died.” Thus , a grave was dug under the bed in the room and whilst they were bathing him they intended to remove his shirt and a voice was heard, “Do not remove the shirt.” He was then bathed with his shirt. [Muwatta Malik]
Here are facts:
Prophet passed away on Monday noon.
Was buried on midnight Wednesday.
He died in Aisha's chamber which was approximately 16' x 13'
Prophet's body was never taken out of Chamber
Now you have body lying on his couch, grave dug Madina style and dirt piled up from grave.
How much room left for family members and Sahabas to stand?
There was no funeral procession since his body was not taken from house to grave yard. So nobody from Medina missed this event.
There was no Zanaza prayer led by Imam. People of Madina prayed in groups. So nobody missed offering Zanaza prayer.
Washing took in Aisha's chamber and by family members and a servant. There was not room or need for everybody to be there.
Burial took place on the night of Wednesday. There is no account of who was present beside family members and not much room for additional people. Only Allah knows if three were there or not.
Meeting at Shafica was long over before burial.
Now what part of funeral three missed?
The 3 Caliphes had nothing but contempt for the dead body of the most important Prophet Allah had sent to humanity.
They were busy discussing and disputing over who will become the chief of the Ummah regardless of what message they had got at Gadir e Khum.
probably the most shameful act by people who were in any case going to do a coup d'etat if the Prophet would have stayed alive.
They had no respect for the Prophet of Allah (PBUH). Had they had any decency, they would have wait for a dignified burial before discussing who amongst them will usurp what belonged to Hazrat Ali. But no, they were so much in a hurry, like thieves who are afraid to be caught before they finish their dirty work.
They were busy discussing and disputing over who will become the chief of the Ummah regardless of what message they had got at Gadir e Khum.
probably the most shameful act by people who were in any case going to do a coup d'etat if the Prophet would have stayed alive.
They had no respect for the Prophet of Allah (PBUH). Had they had any decency, they would have wait for a dignified burial before discussing who amongst them will usurp what belonged to Hazrat Ali. But no, they were so much in a hurry, like thieves who are afraid to be caught before they finish their dirty work.
Sorry for late reply but off course, I read history not only Shiate but also Sunny authors too and they all agrees that the 3 first caliphs were not participated in funeral of prophet Mohammed (pbuh) because the funeral of prophet was not important for them but to select Abu Bakar as a 1st caliph was important for them so, they didn't participated funeral of our last prophet and gathered in "Sakifa Bani Saida" to select H. Abu Bakar as a first caliphs.Read history and you will get reasonable answers.
All parts of the funeral they missed.Now what part of funeral three missed?
Read what a_27826 wrote earlier!
Code: Select all
How could they? When the Prophet died they all went to Saqifa for more important issues. ( which usually true facts ) then you become irritated!! We should not remind you all the time that, this is an Ismaili forum, a Shia forum not Sunny forum, OK. If you can not tolerate or digest what you read here then you need to participate in any Sunny forum, where you can find many trash talk about H. Ali (s.a.) and Ahle Bait family and on Shia sect.
What wrong did they do?, they thought live bodies are more important than dead ones.agakhani wrote:Read what a_27826 wrote earlier!Code: Select all
How could they? When the Prophet died they all went to Saqifa for more important issues.
look, the prophet was dead, if you bury him or burn him, does it matter? they knew very well the dead body wont be kept as it is and would be buried by others. But in meantime more important issues has to be addressed, because Ansars had already declared a meeting to appoint a successor of the dead Prophet.
Its quite normal for the fallible human beings to do. There is nothing wrong in it, provided they thought its not wrong.
Tell how it was wrong for Abu Bakr and Umar to ignore the burial of the "dead" Prophet and attend more important issues like "live" Umma?
agakhani wrote:I have copied below from islamhelpline.com , a site run by ex Mustali Ismaili brothers. If you need link,I can provide it but admin frowns on external link (allows only when serves his purpose)Do you need any Sunny references? how many?, BY THE WAY WHY ARE YOU BECOME SO IRRITATED WHEN I WRITE TRUE FACTS!?? that shows that you are just thinking one sided only and that side is not hidden in this forum any more a "Sunny side", if I write some thing good about Sunny then it is fine with you but when I write some thing bad
( which usually true facts ) then you become irritated!! We should not remind you all the time that, this is an Ismaili forum, a Shia forum not Sunny forum, OK. If you can not tolerate or digest what you read here then you need to participate in any Sunny forum, where you can find many trash talk about H. Ali (s.a.) and Ahle Bait family and on Shia sect.
Your Question: It is said that Hazraths Abu Bakr and Umar (PBUT) were, at the time of the prophet`s death, in `Saqeefah` and hence, could not attend his funeral. Is this narration, that these Khalifas were away, true?
According to accepted history and tradition, the Prophet (saws) died on Monday morning and was buried on Tuesday evening. Due to the constraints of space in the small Prophet’s Mosque in Medina, not one, but several funeral prayers were prayed by the believers. The truth is that all the companions who were in Medina at the time of the Prophet’s death, attended his ‘janaaza’ (funeral). It is absolutely inconceivable to think that the noble companions, who loved their leader and their Prophet all their lives would all become renegades immediately at his death! The noble companions loved Allah and His Messenger (saws) to such an extent, that on one command, they were willing to sacrifice their lives and their possessions.
To think that any of the noble companions who were in Madinah did not attend the Prophet’s funeral is absurd! Each and every companion and believer who was present in Medina at the time, attended the Prophet’s funeral! To allude that companions like Hadrat Abu Bakr (r.a.), Hadrat Umar (r.a.), Hadrat Uthman (r.a.), etc. did not attend the funeral is not only absurd, it is a manifest and malicious lie! Hadrat Abu Bakr (r.a.) and Hadrat Umar (r.a.) were the father-in-laws of the Prophet, and Hadrat Uthman (r.a.) was the former son-in-law (two of the Prophet’s daughters were married to Hadrat Umar, and both of them died during the life of the Prophet (saws)); thus they were part of the family. And Prophet Mohamed (saws), incidentally died in the house of Hadrat Aisha bint Abu Bakr, and was subsequently buried in her house. Thus it is nothing but a manifest and malicious lie to even allude that these noble companions did not attend the funeral of the Prophet (saws)!
There are some ignorant people who lay accusations and propagate the lie that companions of the stature of Hadrat Abu Bakr (r.a.), Hadrat Umar (r.a.), Hadrat Uthmaan (r.a.), etc. did not attend the funeral prayers of the Messenger of Allah (saws)!
We must remember that the noble companions whom these ignorant people slander, are the same whom Allah Subhanah has Himself honored collectively in the Glorious Quran!
Allah says Himself in the Holy Quran Chapter 59 Surah Hashr verse 8, in appreciation of the early companions of the Holy Prophet who migrated for Islam,:
They (the companions who migrated from Makkah to Medina) seek Allah’s bounty and His goodwill, and are ever ready to succor Allah and His Messenger. They indeed are the truthful.
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 9 Surah Taubah verse 100:
Allah was well pleased with those Muhajirs and Ansaar who were the first to respond to the invitation of the Faith, and with those also, who followed them in their righteous conduct, and they too, were well pleased with Allah. Allah has got ready for them Gardens, underneath which, canals flow, and they will abide therein for ever. This is the Greatest Success.
The companions whom these ignorant people so easily revile and slander, are the same ones whom Allah calls the Truthful. Allah is pleased with them, but it is obvious that some people are dis-pleased with them almost 1400 years after their deaths! It indeed matters very little if these ignorant people are not happy with them, because Allah has got ready for them Gardens, underneath which canals flow, and He has promised that they will abide therein for ever!
Sahih Muslim Hadith 6167 Narrated by Abu Hurayrah
Allah's Messenger (saws) said: ‘Do not revile my Companions, do not revile my Companions! By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if one amongst you would have spent as much gold as (Mount) Uhud it would not amount to as much as one mudd (a handful) on behalf of one of them or (even) half of it!’
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shiraz.virani
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a_27826 said :
@ Above hadiths are written by a sunni talking not just about the merits of Imam Ali[as] but also his role as a leader after our rasool[saw].
The onlything Yazid and Muwaiyyah did or achieved was bloodshed and war mongering ???
I still need to get your's and sister zznoor's response on battle of camel...Who started it ??? who incited it ??
Well but his successor was already named @ ghadir e khum [as mentioned by Al Suyuti bhai and other hadith collectors and writers....Infact H.Umar was the 1st person to pay his allegiance to this man....How come it all changed so dramatically ???How could they? When the Prophet died they all went to Saqifa for more important issues.
It would mean end of nabuhwat and beginning of Imamat1. What will the death of the Prophet mean to the young State of Medina and to the Muslim umma?
http://www.iis.ac.uk/SiteAssets/pdf/Al% ... %20PDF.pdf2. Who would succeed Muhammad as the new head of the State of Medina when he dies?
3. What will be the status of the Ansar after the death of Muhammad? Would the new head of the State be just as fair and impartial as he is?
4. Would the Ansar still be masters in their own home – Medina – after the death of the Prophet?
What good would it do to bury a dead Prophet and ignore the live problems like successor-ship ?
@ Above hadiths are written by a sunni talking not just about the merits of Imam Ali[as] but also his role as a leader after our rasool[saw].
Who killed Imam Ali[as] ??...Who killed our 2nd Imam Al Hussain[as] ??And when Ahu Bakr became caliph, he made Yazid, the son of Abu Sufyan, a general in his army.
When Umar was made Caliph, Yazid was promoted to governor of Syria.
When Yazid died, Umar made his younger brother, Muawiya, the new governor of Syria.
When Uthman was made Caliph, Umayyads were ruling every province in the empire and they were commanding every division in the army.
The onlything Yazid and Muwaiyyah did or achieved was bloodshed and war mongering ???
I still need to get your's and sister zznoor's response on battle of camel...Who started it ??? who incited it ??
This thread is 3 Khalifs did not attend funeralS.V.
Who killed Imam Ali[as] ??...Who killed our 2nd Imam Al Hussain[as] ??
The onlything Yazid and Muwaiyyah did or achieved was bloodshed and war mongering ???
I still need to get your's and sister zznoor's response on battle of camel...Who started it ??? who incited it ??
Shia and Sunni sources prove that Prophet was buried after about 30 hours.
AbuBakr and Umar came as soon as they heard about death. The performed Zanaza Namaaz. They probably were inside or outside the house when he was being buried by family. So it proves they attended funeral.
As far as other questions open up new thread like
3 Khalifs killed Ali.
3 Khalifs killed Fatema
3 Khalifs killed Hussein
3 Khalifs killed Hassan
3 Khalifs killed mohsin
Etc etc
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shiraz.virani
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- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
On Thursday, four days before the death of the Messenger of Allah he[saw] said to people — though he was suffering from a severe pain:
"Come here. I will cause you to write something so that you will never fall into error." Upon this 'Umar ibn al-Khattab said: "The Prophet of Allah is suffering from acute pain and you have the Qur'an with you; the Book of Allah is sufficient unto you." Others however wanted the writing to be made. When Muhammad heard them debating over it, he ordered them to go away and leave him alone.
[Sahih al-Bukhari, 2/637]
Sister zznoor, I'm not showing any disrespect to the 1st 3 caliphs.....But yeh when you associate or align yazid and muwaiyah along with the best companions of holy prophet[saw] then what do you expect from me ....A PAT ON THE BACK ???
"Come here. I will cause you to write something so that you will never fall into error." Upon this 'Umar ibn al-Khattab said: "The Prophet of Allah is suffering from acute pain and you have the Qur'an with you; the Book of Allah is sufficient unto you." Others however wanted the writing to be made. When Muhammad heard them debating over it, he ordered them to go away and leave him alone.
[Sahih al-Bukhari, 2/637]
Sister zznoor, I'm not showing any disrespect to the 1st 3 caliphs.....But yeh when you associate or align yazid and muwaiyah along with the best companions of holy prophet[saw] then what do you expect from me ....A PAT ON THE BACK ???
I have given enough info that Khalifs attended funeralAdmin
In this Forum you put small info of a couple of line, some info that is though provoking, like the Did You Know on the front page...
for example:
Did you know that:
As early as 762 A.D., Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq had sent 2 daïs in Maghreb in order to prepare for the arrival of Imam al-Mehdi. Their names were Daï Halwani and Daï Abu Sufiyan.
Bus Khalas
Salaam
Everything was going fine and dandy........the Prophet was in "death bead" ..............why rock the ship while its sailing fine by writing wills at the last moment?shiraz.virani wrote:On Thursday, four days before the death of the Messenger of Allah he[saw] said to people — though he was suffering from a severe pain:
"Come here. I will cause you to write something so that you will never fall into error." Upon this 'Umar ibn al-Khattab said: "The Prophet of Allah is suffering from acute pain and you have the Qur'an with you; the Book of Allah is sufficient unto you." Others however wanted the writing to be made. When Muhammad heard them debating over it, he ordered them to go away and leave him alone.
[Sahih al-Bukhari, 2/637]
Sister zznoor, I'm not showing any disrespect to the 1st 3 caliphs.....But yeh when you associate or align yazid and muwaiyah along with the best companions of holy prophet[saw] then what do you expect from me ....A PAT ON THE BACK ???
Besides Umar's disobedience had a valid reason for not letting Prophet write his will.
"The Prophet was seriously ill, whatever Prophet would have written in the delirious state, could have misled people"
Umar did Ijtihad seeing Prophet's delirious state......
This also proves that Umar qualifies to Prophet's successor.
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shiraz.virani
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- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
Do you think you know more than what our rasool[saw] knew ???....What if rasool[saw] wanted to write something that could save the ship from drowning ??...What if he wanted to give away his property[village of jews given as a gift to our rasool[saw]] to his dearest daughter H.Bibi Fatima[as] ???....What if he wanted to name his successor in writing ??Everything was going fine and dandy........the Prophet was in "death bead" ..............why rock the ship while its sailing fine by writing wills at the last moment?
Did he[H.Umar] had a valid reason to burn down H.Ali's[as] house knowing that H.Bibi Fatima[as] was still inside her house when Ahle bait refused to pay allegiance to H.Abu Bakr ???....Did he[H.Umar] had a valid reason to drag Imam Ali[as] in front of H.Abu Bakr and forced him to pay allegiance to H.Abu Bakr ???Besides Umar's disobedience had a valid reason for not letting Prophet write his will.
In the very same quran allah[swt] said that a prophet[as] does not say anything on his own, How idiotic are your comments @ above sir."The Prophet was seriously ill, whatever Prophet would have written in the delirious state, could have misled people"
On 1 hand you say you read quran and on other hand you come up with these silly arguments defending H.Umar and all other self made political leaders.
This also proves that Umar qualifies to Prophet's successor.
....Can you tell us what are the qualities of prophet's successor ???Very good question by you Shiraz! she was also pregnant when H. Umar burned down H. Ali (s.a.) house and after this and "Fidak" ripped off event she was not lived more then 6 months.Did he[H.Umar] had a valid reason to burn down H.Ali's[as] house knowing that H.Bibi Fatima[as] was still inside her house when Ahle bait refused to pay allegiance to H.Abu Bakr ???....Did he[H.Umar] had a valid reason to drag Imam Ali[as] in front of H.Abu Bakr and forced him to pay allegiance to H.Abu Bakr ???
What if rasool[saw] wanted to write something that could save the ship from drowning ??.
As per many Shiates scholars prophet Mohammed (PBUH) wanted to write down H. Ali (s.a.) name as his successor or caliph but H. Umar not let that happened and see the result!! since then many Muslim sect became Gumarah.
Sorry sir, that is not true H.Umar didn't have any qualification to be a Prophet's successor, the reason are below:-This also proves that Umar qualifies to Prophet's successor.
1, Can you show me H.Umar killed any enemy in any holy war?
2, He also confessed that after the "Jang E- Ohad" he climbed on mountain and hid himself like goat!!
3, He did not allow to bring paper and pen, when prophet asked for that because it was already decided long time ago whome to choose as a 1st caliph.
4, He was very angry person, only think he learned to pull out the swords to show others ( mostly propher and H. Ali) that he will do any thing for Islam but history is witnessed that he never killed any enemies in any wars.
5, Lot of time he also confessed that if 'If there was no Ali, Umar would have perished!' H. ALI NAHI HOTE TO UMAR KHALAK HO JATA"!! because he didn't have any qualification to solve tough questions during the time of caliphat and many times he had to ask H. Ali (s.a.) for the solution.
6, In Tarikh Abul Fada (Vol1 page 187) it is stated that “Hazrat Umar took the banner and fought even harder but he as well returned unsuccessfully like Abu Bakar did so, after this disappointed defeats from Abu Bakar and H. Umar, prophet Mohammed gave banner to H. Ali, even though he had eye problem and he won the fort of Khaibar.
These and many other reasons proves that H. Umar did not had qualification to become of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)"s successor. I can write as many as reasons you want but I am at work I think this will be enough for you.
This unqualified person was only other Muslim listed beside Prophetagakhani wrote:Sorry sir, that is not true H.Umar didn't have any qualification to be a Prophet's successor, the reason are below:-This also proves that Umar qualifies to Prophet's successor.
1, Can you show me H.Umar killed any enemy in any holy war?
2, He also confessed that after the "Jang E- Ohad" he climbed on mountain and hid himself like goat!!
3, He did not allow to bring paper and pen, when prophet asked for that because it was already decided long time ago whome to choose as a 1st caliph.
4, He was very angry person, only think he learned to pull out the swords to show others ( mostly propher and H. Ali) that he will do any thing for Islam but history is witnessed that he never killed any enemies in any wars.
5, Lot of time he also confessed that if 'If there was no Ali, Umar would have perished!' H. ALI NAHI HOTE TO UMAR KHALAK HO JATA"!! because he didn't have any qualification to solve tough questions during the time of caliphat and many times he had to ask H. Ali (s.a.) for the solution.
6, In Tarikh Abul Fada (Vol1 page 187) it is stated that “Hazrat Umar took the banner and fought even harder but he as well returned unsuccessfully like Abu Bakar did so, after this disappointed defeats from Abu Bakar and H. Umar, prophet Mohammed gave banner to H. Ali, even though he had eye problem and he won the fort of Khaibar.
These and many other reasons proves that H. Umar did not had qualification to become of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)"s successor. I can write as many as reasons you want but I am at work I think this will be enough for you.
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1. Suucership: But the prophet had already declared his successor at Ghadir.shiraz.virani wrote:Do you think you know more than what our rasool[saw] knew ???....What if rasool[saw] wanted to write something that could save the ship from drowning ??...What if he wanted to give away his property[village of jews given as a gift to our rasool[saw]] to his dearest daughter H.Bibi Fatima[as] ???....What if he wanted to name his successor in writing ??Everything was going fine and dandy........the Prophet was in "death bead" ..............why rock the ship while its sailing fine by writing wills at the last moment?
2. Fadak: The thing the prophet wanted to be written was something that people wont get astray after his passing away. Do you think by giving gifts to Fatima would have guided people not getting astray?
shiraz.virani wrote:Things were going fine.Did he[H.Umar] had a valid reason to burn down H.Ali's[as] house knowing that H.Bibi Fatima[as] was still inside her house when Ahle bait refused to pay allegiance to H.Abu Bakr ???....Did he[H.Umar] had a valid reason to drag Imam Ali[as] in front of H.Abu Bakr and forced him to pay allegiance to H.Abu Bakr ???Besides Umar's disobedience had a valid reason for not letting Prophet write his will.
1. The Prophet was about to die due to state of his illness.
2. The successor will be appointed to lead the people when the prophet dies.
3. Umar must had an idea as to who can be the successor when Prophet dies.
All these things can only happen when the Prophet dies.
Now suddenly Prophet is asking Pen and Paper, which means changes.
Why changes now? These changes will most likely will change the vision of future Umar had after the Prophet dies.
Yes, most certainly Umar had valid, genuine and sincere reason for his disobedience to the Prophet by refusing the Prophet's demand of Pen and Paper.
Sorry, I don't get the point here.shiraz.virani wrote:In the very same quran allah[swt] said that a prophet[as] does not say anything on his own, How idiotic are your comments @ above sir."The Prophet was seriously ill, whatever Prophet would have written in the delirious state, could have misled people"
The prophet, might have have said many things. like "bring me a bucket of water" or "hand over the blanket" or "welcome, take a seat".
Do you think these words are also part of Quran?
shiraz.virani wrote:It depends on what do you mean by “Prophet’s successor”.This also proves that Umar qualifies to Prophet's successor.
Since Prophet Muhamad was the last Prophet and there is no Prophet after him, then I assume you mean to say a person who takes over Prophet Muhamad’s temporal leadership after his death.
Then sure, I think Umar was more qualified than Abu Bakr...........
1. At Saqifa, Umar nominated Abu Bakr and gave bayah to him and convinced others present there to do the same.
2. The book we have now titled "quran" was his idea.
He convinced Caliph Abu Bakr to order the collection of verses.
In short, Umar did get things done whatever he wanted it to be done.
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shiraz.virani
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a_27826 said :
First you said this :
And then you said :
H.Umar did had an idea because he was the 1st person to pay allegiance to Imam Ali[as] !!!
Lemme remind you that our rasool[saw] was sick and not brain dead...so what you're saying is nonsense.
Would he use a pen and paper to ask him wives to hand him over a blanket ???...Would he write to his slave to bring him a bucket of water ???
Our prophet[saw] said in clear terms "LEMME WRITE SOMETHING WITH WHICH YOU WOULD NEVER GO ASTRAY"...What does that mean ???
You are the most well versed person that we have here on this forum, I just wanna what makes you ask such silly questions ???...Why are you playing devil's advocate here ???
First you said this :
Which means that you agree that during his last sermon rasool[saw] appointed H.Imam Ali[as] as his successor1. Suucership: But the prophet had already declared his successor at Ghadir.
And then you said :
But as you said @ above, our rasool's[saw] successor was already appointed @ ghadir e khum .Things were going fine.
1. The Prophet was about to die due to state of his illness.
2. The successor will be appointed to lead the people when the prophet dies.
3. Umar must had an idea as to who can be the successor when Prophet dies.
All these things can only happen when the Prophet dies.
H.Umar did had an idea because he was the 1st person to pay allegiance to Imam Ali[as] !!!
Brother do you think a will made orally holds any value ???...He rasool[saw] may have thought its better to write down his will which includes material property [which was gifted to him] along with naming his successor in writing.Now suddenly Prophet is asking Pen and Paper, which means changes.
Lemme remind you that our rasool[saw] was sick and not brain dead...so what you're saying is nonsense.
What a silly man you are !!!Sorry, I don't get the point here.
The prophet, might have have said many things. like "bring me a bucket of water" or "hand over the blanket" or "welcome, take a seat".
Do you think these words are also part of Quran?
Would he use a pen and paper to ask him wives to hand him over a blanket ???...Would he write to his slave to bring him a bucket of water ???
Our prophet[saw] said in clear terms "LEMME WRITE SOMETHING WITH WHICH YOU WOULD NEVER GO ASTRAY"...What does that mean ???
You are the most well versed person that we have here on this forum, I just wanna what makes you ask such silly questions ???...Why are you playing devil's advocate here ???
The same H.Umar gave bayah to H.Imam Ali[as] @ ghadir e khum ...wussup with that ???...You yourself said @ above that our rasool[saw] already appointed his successor @ ghadir e khum, so what happened to this successor ???...Why all of a sudden he was treated as an outcast ??It depends on what do you mean by “Prophet’s successor”.
Since Prophet Muhamad was the last Prophet and there is no Prophet after him, then I assume you mean to say a person who takes over Prophet Muhamad’s temporal leadership after his death.
Then sure, I think Umar was more qualified than Abu Bakr...........
1. At Saqifa, Umar nominated Abu Bakr and gave bayah to him and convinced others present there to do the same.
2. The book we have now titled "quran" was his idea.
He convinced Caliph Abu Bakr to order the collection of verses.
In short, Umar did get things done whatever he wanted it to be done.
Let me elaborate as to why I don't get your point.a_27826 wrote:Sorry, I don't get the point here.shiraz.virani wrote:In the very same quran allah[swt] said that a prophet[as] does not say anything on his own, How idiotic are your comments @ above sir."The Prophet was seriously ill, whatever Prophet would have written in the delirious state, could have misled people"
The prophet, might have have said many things. like "bring me a bucket of water" or "hand over the blanket" or "welcome, take a seat".
Do you think these words are also part of Quran?
Umar's reason was that the Prophet was seriously ill, and therefore whatever Prophet would have dictated in the delirious state could not be trusted"
You said Umar's reason was unfounded because "allah[swt] said that a prophet[as] does not say anything on his own"
Now this is were I am trying to understand your point.
I believe the verse you are referring to is 053:003 "nor speaks he out of desire"
My question was to you was "do you think whatever Prophet uttered from his mouth is part of Quran?"
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shiraz.virani
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- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
The answer is a simple "NO".....But there is this more important question that you are failing to answer and that is... why did rasool[saw] wanted to write something in 1st place ???Let me elaborate as to why I don't get your point.
Umar's reason was that the Prophet was seriously ill, and therefore whatever Prophet would have dictated in the delirious state could not be trusted"
You said Umar's reason was unfounded because "allah[swt] said that a prophet[as] does not say anything on his own"
Now this is were I am trying to understand your point.
I believe the verse you are referring to is 053:003 "nor speaks he out of desire"
My question was to you was "do you think whatever Prophet uttered from his mouth is part of Quran?"
What was is soooo important that he [saw] said :
"Come here. I will cause you to write something so that you will never fall into error."
Did you ever pondered on that question ??
By the words so that you will never fall into error...We know that this can't be anything related to his wives, property or anything else....But it has everything to do with FAITH.
What was soooooo important that even in that state or condition our rasool[saw] wanted to write something for the ummah and its future generation[US] that we would never go astray ???...Even in that state or condition our rasool[saw] who even on his death bed was concerned about his ummah and you are saying whatever this man would have said in that state "cannot be trusted".
Actually its Umar who is "supposed" to have said that the Prophet is in the delirious state to the "supposed" demand of Pen and Paper of the Prophet.shiraz.virani wrote:The answer is a simple "NO".....But there is this more important question that you are failing to answer and that is... why did rasool[saw] wanted to write something in 1st place ???Let me elaborate as to why I don't get your point.
Umar's reason was that the Prophet was seriously ill, and therefore whatever Prophet would have dictated in the delirious state could not be trusted"
You said Umar's reason was unfounded because "allah[swt] said that a prophet[as] does not say anything on his own"
Now this is were I am trying to understand your point.
I believe the verse you are referring to is 053:003 "nor speaks he out of desire"
My question was to you was "do you think whatever Prophet uttered from his mouth is part of Quran?"
What was is soooo important that he [saw] said :
"Come here. I will cause you to write something so that you will never fall into error."
Did you ever pondered on that question ??
By the words so that you will never fall into error...We know that this can't be anything related to his wives, property or anything else....But it has everything to do with FAITH.
What was soooooo important that even in that state or condition our rasool[saw] wanted to write something for the ummah and its future generation[US] that we would never go astray ???...Even in that state or condition our rasool[saw] who even on his death bed was concerned about his ummah and you are saying whatever this man would have said in that state "cannot be trusted".
But let not that stop us to speculate what he wanted to be written down.
There could be many things, so its better/easier to go other way and speculate what he might not wanted to be written down. That is the process of elimination.
1. It cannot be his successor, if he had already declared his successor at Gadhir.
2. It cannot be gift of Fadak to Fatima, as it would not help the people not fall into error.
and so on.
BTW, did not Prophet live few more days? He could easily got somebody else like Ali and some others to dictate the important thing?