Ginan with Future Prediction
I have many waezs of Abu Ali, so it is hard to point out that particular waez at this time, but I can tell you this; the date, time and year had been given in one waez delivered in SugarLand Jamat Khana by Rai saheb so, if you know any one from Sugar Land then ask if any one have this waez, meanwhile this is my practice to keep listening all waezs again and again so, if I will keep eye on that particular waez and hopefully I will put it here more detail.The date and day may not exactly match because it is predicted on the basis of Lunar calender and Lunar calendar is 11 days shorter than Gregorian calender:- but I want to make sure for myself too so, will you please give me the website address where I can check the date and days?
I do not have much info on Ginans.
The particular verse of prediction in a Ginan:
1.Is this Ginan still recited or in circulation?
2.Has the interpretation of it done by the Imam or a mortal person?
As I am given to understand,that many Ginans verses DEEMED to be important were frequently asked by then Bhagats n Leaders to Imam SMS then.
Has this verse has opinion,statement or endorsement of Imam SMS or other Imams?
This info will help to read the verse later on.and participate on it's debate.
The particular verse of prediction in a Ginan:
1.Is this Ginan still recited or in circulation?
2.Has the interpretation of it done by the Imam or a mortal person?
As I am given to understand,that many Ginans verses DEEMED to be important were frequently asked by then Bhagats n Leaders to Imam SMS then.
Has this verse has opinion,statement or endorsement of Imam SMS or other Imams?
This info will help to read the verse later on.and participate on it's debate.
Yes, most ginans are still reciting in JK. However there are many ginans which contains detail about future prediction so, basically it may not possible that all ginans can be recited in JK.1.Is this Ginan still recited or in circulation?
Interpretation has been made by well know missionaries, Al- waezins, authors and scholars.2.Has the interpretation of it done by the Imam or a mortal person?
Not only this but Imam Ali Shah (s.a.) and Sultan Mohammad Shah (s.a.)and other Imam also has mentioned about "ZAHURAT" many times in their farmans and hidayats as well,and most of religion waiting for it, so basically it will happen soon or later even if someone doesn't accept above interpretation made by missionaries and scholars.
FYI:- In my opinion an ordinary person can not make any interpretation because first of all it is very tough to understand and very hard to find out in which ginan these detail is available?! Why? Let me give you an example; the day of Zahurat is given in one ginan, the date is given in different ginan, the year has been given in another ginan, the name of Imam is given in Anant Akhado one detail is given by one pir the other detail is given by other pirs, ordinary man like me and you can not make any interpretation because we do not have that much time and patience .
To Agakhani:
Your answer to first question it totally WRONG.In a court of Law i.e If a person is asked ‘Did you see it?’. Answer required is in yes or no and NOT somebody may have it and somebody may not have seen.It does stand any ground.You are cunningly as ever with dual login Id has tried to hide the truth.
Haqiqat momin who has great knowledge on faith and one person attaches in our religious board and firmly
Answered that this particular verse related in segment of Ginan is not recited in any Jamatkhanas.It has been under strict guidance of Hazar Imam is confined to history for good.
You cannot fool all the people all the time.
Saints and Sagas of the past who performed miracles got carried away and exceeded their brief gave
A future fancy date for Doomsday. Nothing has happened till date.They are looked as FOOLs now.
Only ALI can determine say that not a mortal soul and not even blessed Prophets.
We here have a greater saint(Missionary not Pirs) ,who is interpreting the precise time, date,place, countries and year, when it will quasi doomsday, over exceeding the power of God himself . Haa Haa Haa
As for Zahurat,It is a surety in which we Ismailis we start our roles.
Zahurat will be MOST MOST MOST blessed day on earth and Definate not be a quasi Doomsday.Any child will answer that
Only a fool or his advocate a greater fool will think it other way.
I was told that Imam SMS ordered burning of some segment Of Ginans due to some over learned Khojas
Of Karachi then.Please answer in one word ,Is is true or False?
There is speech made by Hazar Imam and one of subject covered was on environment.
In the last paragraph,the following lines are ther. Enmass change of Faith and message end with future shock is upon us. ( both lines are not interrelated)
ALI KAHETA KUCH HAI.
SHAMJATA DOOSRA KUCH HAI.
AUR KARANA CHAHTA HAI AUR BAHUT KUCHHAI
MAI ALI TO MANU KE EK ‘RAI’ KE DANE KO.
TUM JISO MANO WHO TUMARA IMAAN.
TUMARA IMAAN TUMHE MUBARAK
HUME HUMARA ALI MUBARAK.
To Admin: I have 12 more serious questions,which I feel should NOT be on the open forum.I do even wish
To be person to see that verse or Ginan.My Zulfiqar is ready for Finality ,if any
Please advice wisely
Your answer to first question it totally WRONG.In a court of Law i.e If a person is asked ‘Did you see it?’. Answer required is in yes or no and NOT somebody may have it and somebody may not have seen.It does stand any ground.You are cunningly as ever with dual login Id has tried to hide the truth.
Haqiqat momin who has great knowledge on faith and one person attaches in our religious board and firmly
Answered that this particular verse related in segment of Ginan is not recited in any Jamatkhanas.It has been under strict guidance of Hazar Imam is confined to history for good.
You cannot fool all the people all the time.
Saints and Sagas of the past who performed miracles got carried away and exceeded their brief gave
A future fancy date for Doomsday. Nothing has happened till date.They are looked as FOOLs now.
Only ALI can determine say that not a mortal soul and not even blessed Prophets.
We here have a greater saint(Missionary not Pirs) ,who is interpreting the precise time, date,place, countries and year, when it will quasi doomsday, over exceeding the power of God himself . Haa Haa Haa
As for Zahurat,It is a surety in which we Ismailis we start our roles.
Zahurat will be MOST MOST MOST blessed day on earth and Definate not be a quasi Doomsday.Any child will answer that
Only a fool or his advocate a greater fool will think it other way.
I was told that Imam SMS ordered burning of some segment Of Ginans due to some over learned Khojas
Of Karachi then.Please answer in one word ,Is is true or False?
There is speech made by Hazar Imam and one of subject covered was on environment.
In the last paragraph,the following lines are ther. Enmass change of Faith and message end with future shock is upon us. ( both lines are not interrelated)
ALI KAHETA KUCH HAI.
SHAMJATA DOOSRA KUCH HAI.
AUR KARANA CHAHTA HAI AUR BAHUT KUCHHAI
MAI ALI TO MANU KE EK ‘RAI’ KE DANE KO.
TUM JISO MANO WHO TUMARA IMAAN.
TUMARA IMAAN TUMHE MUBARAK
HUME HUMARA ALI MUBARAK.
To Admin: I have 12 more serious questions,which I feel should NOT be on the open forum.I do even wish
To be person to see that verse or Ginan.My Zulfiqar is ready for Finality ,if any
Please advice wisely
To Nuseri,
I suggest you read a little bit more about ginans as your knowledge of that subject is very shallow and half knowledge is dangerous. One should refrain of posting on subjects that he does not understand. For example your knowledge on some verse that Sultan Muhammad Shah ordered destroyed is wrong, if you do not know the whole story, who were the people concerned, which were the verses and if SMS really said this, you should not start posting on this without thorough research.
If your remaining 12 questions are in the same direction, better restrain yourself from posting up to after you research the subject matters.
As I said any post which is misleading (either on purpose or unknowingly) will be deleted. Personal messages also will be deleted, so will this message be delete in a couple of days
Admin
I suggest you read a little bit more about ginans as your knowledge of that subject is very shallow and half knowledge is dangerous. One should refrain of posting on subjects that he does not understand. For example your knowledge on some verse that Sultan Muhammad Shah ordered destroyed is wrong, if you do not know the whole story, who were the people concerned, which were the verses and if SMS really said this, you should not start posting on this without thorough research.
If your remaining 12 questions are in the same direction, better restrain yourself from posting up to after you research the subject matters.
As I said any post which is misleading (either on purpose or unknowingly) will be deleted. Personal messages also will be deleted, so will this message be delete in a couple of days
Admin
to Admin:
Ya ali madad.
You are right my info on Ginan at zahiri level is not much.That I why I am not active on this section,but somebody has speak the TRUTH,if one's posting is incorrect or it carried away by one's presumed knowledge.
I have asked a question heard by me in prson about something,it was not a firm statement or my point of view.
I was told it about misunderstanding by over learned and stubborn Khoja on a verse of 'hari thi harivar motha' in series of Manhar Granth section of ginan,it was withdrawn with stern words from Imam SMS.
This is info given to me.Please let me know the know the whole truth,if what I heard is in correct.
I must congratulate your SITE heartily,somebody who knows me an Ismaili
heard a Alwaez very recently giving 2 mainas ( from my posting ending with Ahmed as signature) definately learned from this SITE,which was
not known to many in all Ismaili traditions since last 1400 years.We are delivEring in the right quarters,It is the wish of ALI happening.
I am on your site for a Agenda and not for debating and slandering if provoked.
You have deleted many of my posting,some were 100% truth in it.It is JUST not FAIR,One's of slandering were required to be deleted.
Ya ali madad.
You are right my info on Ginan at zahiri level is not much.That I why I am not active on this section,but somebody has speak the TRUTH,if one's posting is incorrect or it carried away by one's presumed knowledge.
I have asked a question heard by me in prson about something,it was not a firm statement or my point of view.
I was told it about misunderstanding by over learned and stubborn Khoja on a verse of 'hari thi harivar motha' in series of Manhar Granth section of ginan,it was withdrawn with stern words from Imam SMS.
This is info given to me.Please let me know the know the whole truth,if what I heard is in correct.
I must congratulate your SITE heartily,somebody who knows me an Ismaili
heard a Alwaez very recently giving 2 mainas ( from my posting ending with Ahmed as signature) definately learned from this SITE,which was
not known to many in all Ismaili traditions since last 1400 years.We are delivEring in the right quarters,It is the wish of ALI happening.
I am on your site for a Agenda and not for debating and slandering if provoked.
You have deleted many of my posting,some were 100% truth in it.It is JUST not FAIR,One's of slandering were required to be deleted.
How? are you going JK? are you listening ginans? if yes then I am pretty sure that you may have listened below ginans in JK.Your answer to first question it totally WRONG.
1, Pachham thi Shahna Dal Aavshe,
2, Setardwip ne Khand Erak mahe
3, Hansapuri Nagarima mandavo rachayo
4, Farat Neza Tambal Vagse chadiya dev nirinjana
5, Eji Dul Dul Ghode Sacho sami rajo chadse
The above ginans are on "Zahurat" This is not it I can write almost 100 ginans here which are directly mentioning about 'Zahurat'. Do you need more? how many more you need? So don't tell that my answer was wrong.
It is totally wrong, who told you that? not a single ginans of any pirs has been order to burned not even Syed Imam Shah or Syed Nur Mohammad shah ( who proclaimed him self as "Nar" as a Imam ) but their ginans are still reciting in JK.I was told that Imam SMS ordered burning of some segment Of Ginans due to some over learned Khojas
Of Karachi then.Please answer in one word ,Is is true or False?
to Admin:
why have you deleted my post(reply) to above posting done few hours before.
It was not any matter of abuse?
It was reply to the ginan verses written 750 years back ,ON how to anticipate Didars of Imam later to new converts as Imam were staying in Persia then and/would travel on horses and caravans from west to east.It was differentiating between a many Didars,which Khojas got in later period and till date,it was not on Zahurat.
understanding the period,the profile of listeners then Ginans were composed.
Please also throw some light on Karachi incident during Imam SMS period.Why feel shy on it.
even at Haqiqat level the truth is at 67% and falsehood isat 33%.
Why should a faithful be afraid of 100% truth.If it is not true the bloggers
n you are pointing it out n debating.
why have you deleted my post(reply) to above posting done few hours before.
It was not any matter of abuse?
It was reply to the ginan verses written 750 years back ,ON how to anticipate Didars of Imam later to new converts as Imam were staying in Persia then and/would travel on horses and caravans from west to east.It was differentiating between a many Didars,which Khojas got in later period and till date,it was not on Zahurat.
understanding the period,the profile of listeners then Ginans were composed.
Please also throw some light on Karachi incident during Imam SMS period.Why feel shy on it.
even at Haqiqat level the truth is at 67% and falsehood isat 33%.
Why should a faithful be afraid of 100% truth.If it is not true the bloggers
n you are pointing it out n debating.
No one is shy "Nuseri" .. please do not be insecure to the point that everyone seems wrong and that you feel compulsion in always be in the defensive.
Some People told SMS that Granth Man Har contains a passage which says that the believer is higher then God.
Harithi Harijan Mota
Kamadia Jan was preaching this in Mumbay. He was wrong. This does not make all the Khojas wrong or less Imani and people of other background right and more Imani.
Obviously whoever did not understand that the word "thi and thaki" were used interchangeably by Pirs in the past misunderstood the meaning of the verse like some are doing here constantly and so much as I have to periodically delete them on the subject of ginans and lohanas and khojas.
The next verse said "Hari trigounr, harijans trigounr nahi" which means God has the 3 knowledge but the believer does not have the 3 knowledge. So obviously God was considered supreme in this Granth.
SMS said if the Pir wrote that the believer is higher than God, burn that book. Obviously Pir never wrote this. But some "dodh daya" who did not understand what Imam said started preaching that Imam said to burn Man Har Granth, even when they died and came back again in a new birth, still they restarted preaching the same...
No, Imam never said burn Man Har Granth, he said "IF" it contains... the condition was not completed.
I have even recently heard chapters of the Granth recited in Jamatkhana. Thanks God, not everyone has misunderstood SMS.
Some People told SMS that Granth Man Har contains a passage which says that the believer is higher then God.
Harithi Harijan Mota
Kamadia Jan was preaching this in Mumbay. He was wrong. This does not make all the Khojas wrong or less Imani and people of other background right and more Imani.
Obviously whoever did not understand that the word "thi and thaki" were used interchangeably by Pirs in the past misunderstood the meaning of the verse like some are doing here constantly and so much as I have to periodically delete them on the subject of ginans and lohanas and khojas.
The next verse said "Hari trigounr, harijans trigounr nahi" which means God has the 3 knowledge but the believer does not have the 3 knowledge. So obviously God was considered supreme in this Granth.
SMS said if the Pir wrote that the believer is higher than God, burn that book. Obviously Pir never wrote this. But some "dodh daya" who did not understand what Imam said started preaching that Imam said to burn Man Har Granth, even when they died and came back again in a new birth, still they restarted preaching the same...
No, Imam never said burn Man Har Granth, he said "IF" it contains... the condition was not completed.
I have even recently heard chapters of the Granth recited in Jamatkhana. Thanks God, not everyone has misunderstood SMS.
Admin,
Thanks for the explanation about misunderstanding for "Manhar Granth", I heard in in waez but detail was not given thanks again, is any way I can have a copy of this granth? an e-mail copy will be just fine. My e-mail is agakhani underscore 78660 at yahoo dot com if you be kind enough to give some time from your busy life.
One humble request if you decide to delete someone's post which you think it is inappropriate then you can delete it, it is up to you but but please live at least couple of days so that every body can read it, for instant example, I would have loved to read Nuseri's answer of my above post but unfortunately I can not now because it is already deleted so obviously I don't know what Nuseri had wrote in his answer of my post? according him 'it was not any matter of abuse'! it might be informative to me who knows now!?
Nuseri,
If you do not mind then will you please e-mail your answer at above stated e-mail address?, I will highly appreciate if you kindly do this after all I like to know what was your non abusable answer and why Admin deleted it? I am a still student I like to know anybody's comments whether I believe it or not.
Thanks for the explanation about misunderstanding for "Manhar Granth", I heard in in waez but detail was not given thanks again, is any way I can have a copy of this granth? an e-mail copy will be just fine. My e-mail is agakhani underscore 78660 at yahoo dot com if you be kind enough to give some time from your busy life.
One humble request if you decide to delete someone's post which you think it is inappropriate then you can delete it, it is up to you but but please live at least couple of days so that every body can read it, for instant example, I would have loved to read Nuseri's answer of my above post but unfortunately I can not now because it is already deleted so obviously I don't know what Nuseri had wrote in his answer of my post? according him 'it was not any matter of abuse'! it might be informative to me who knows now!?
Nuseri,
If you do not mind then will you please e-mail your answer at above stated e-mail address?, I will highly appreciate if you kindly do this after all I like to know what was your non abusable answer and why Admin deleted it? I am a still student I like to know anybody's comments whether I believe it or not.
To Admin:
If you wish,you can email the deleted posting to Agakhani.
As for the manhar granth.I have confirmed with person of knowledge.
It was two persons from Karachi Jan and Abdualah.
Imam SMS did used the word to burn it,In reality It was not burned but totally WITHDRAWN by then board/association.
IF somebody is reciting a verse from it,is either ignorant or defiant.
There are currently just 101 Ginans (out of over 600) approved by our board for recitation in Jamatkhanas
Even doomsday nuke button verses is not there.
One Alwaez with passion of Ginans, did give his opinion,which I feel is having somebody with more knowledge than Imam.
I have already said that in precise doomsday prediction.
Ginans,according to me is too many Pirs/Syeds wrote too many Ginans, whether to out do each other then?
A child in kindergarten need few poems(not 600) to enter the school test,then the school syllabus was always there made by the Dean.
If you wish,you can email the deleted posting to Agakhani.
As for the manhar granth.I have confirmed with person of knowledge.
It was two persons from Karachi Jan and Abdualah.
Imam SMS did used the word to burn it,In reality It was not burned but totally WITHDRAWN by then board/association.
IF somebody is reciting a verse from it,is either ignorant or defiant.
There are currently just 101 Ginans (out of over 600) approved by our board for recitation in Jamatkhanas
Even doomsday nuke button verses is not there.
One Alwaez with passion of Ginans, did give his opinion,which I feel is having somebody with more knowledge than Imam.
I have already said that in precise doomsday prediction.
Ginans,according to me is too many Pirs/Syeds wrote too many Ginans, whether to out do each other then?
A child in kindergarten need few poems(not 600) to enter the school test,then the school syllabus was always there made by the Dean.
Your source for Man Har Granth's history is unfortunately ignorant. Blind following blind would not lead anyone very far. Try to find a variety of opinion and then only form your opinion. Verify for example with al-Waez Salim Moosa whose grand father was in the group of Kamadia Jan, he knows some of the history kept in his family and and gave a good briefing about kamadia Jan and what happened in the Man Har matter at the SOS Khojki Conference in Toronto in 1991.
Man Har is a very simple subject. No ginans have been banned. If any alwaez tells you here are only 101 ginans approved to be recited, I would tell you he is not an Ismaili alwaez.
At least in my opinion, whoever is trying to abrogate Imam's Farmans on Ginans has already in his heart cancelled his Bayat. This kind of people just stay in our faith to mislead others.
I beg you to search a little bit deeper. tell this alwaez, I am saying that no ginan has been banned and if he preached anything different, he is misleading the Murids of the Imam and his place is not in our community.
Man Har is a very simple subject. No ginans have been banned. If any alwaez tells you here are only 101 ginans approved to be recited, I would tell you he is not an Ismaili alwaez.
At least in my opinion, whoever is trying to abrogate Imam's Farmans on Ginans has already in his heart cancelled his Bayat. This kind of people just stay in our faith to mislead others.
I beg you to search a little bit deeper. tell this alwaez, I am saying that no ginan has been banned and if he preached anything different, he is misleading the Murids of the Imam and his place is not in our community.
To Admin:
Very stern reply.anyway expecting it.
Please note the incident heard from from a third party does not stand ground to both of our point of view.
My info is very reliable that there are 101 ginans for recital all of them printed by the religious board of our country.
Please note word withdrawn does not mean it being banned.
The Ginans not kept for recital are not banned,they are very much there for history and academic referrals.
There are 100 of farmans that our faith is one of Sufism and Baatin,where
not 600 Ginans with 6000 verses is needed ,But ONE WORD FROM ALI or the word ALI itself.
KHUDA KE ALFAZ SAHI HAI KE NAI WO,HAMARE IMAAN PE CHORD DO.
All others forms are like eating dry or juicy grass.
Ali may be pushed into as a plaintiff here,but he is judge up there to evaluate one's Bayaat or mischief.
In your very word:
Why be so Judgemental?
I take all your opinion formed for me in stride.
YAAR ASHIQUE ALI PE JYAADA KARO.
TARAFDARI GINAN USEE THODA KUM.
Very stern reply.anyway expecting it.
Please note the incident heard from from a third party does not stand ground to both of our point of view.
My info is very reliable that there are 101 ginans for recital all of them printed by the religious board of our country.
Please note word withdrawn does not mean it being banned.
The Ginans not kept for recital are not banned,they are very much there for history and academic referrals.
There are 100 of farmans that our faith is one of Sufism and Baatin,where
not 600 Ginans with 6000 verses is needed ,But ONE WORD FROM ALI or the word ALI itself.
KHUDA KE ALFAZ SAHI HAI KE NAI WO,HAMARE IMAAN PE CHORD DO.
All others forms are like eating dry or juicy grass.
Ali may be pushed into as a plaintiff here,but he is judge up there to evaluate one's Bayaat or mischief.
In your very word:
Why be so Judgemental?
I take all your opinion formed for me in stride.
YAAR ASHIQUE ALI PE JYAADA KARO.
TARAFDARI GINAN USEE THODA KUM.
I would prefer to read all 600 available ginans not only 100 ginans printed by Ismaili Association for Cananda, even more if possible in future.There are 100 of farmans that our faith is one of Sufism and Baatin,where
not 600 Ginans with 6000 verses is needed ,
I have not found any farmans of any Imams so far in which any Imams has instructed us not to read all 600 ginans! (Once upon a time there were thousand and thousands ginans but unfortunately most of ginans are lost ) as we are discussing here that not a single ginans has been banned or restricted not to recite in JK, I already gave an example of Syed Nur Mohammad shah, he proclaimed his self as "Imam" which is against our tariqa but his ginans are still reciting in JK ginans are the first step to reach on the top of our faith and reach till the marifat so remembering or reciting only 100 ginans is not a wise decision, not for me at least as a ginan lover in my opinion If some one want to made progress in baatini then he/she must have to have read all ginans especially composed on for batini progress like "Brahm Prakash", Buj Niranjan, Sakhi mara Aatam na othar e.t.c. and other ginans teaching us for Shariya, Tarikat and Hakikat so not a single ginan is worthless. There are many ginans which are specially composed on Sufism.
Nuseri, your position is not tenable. Hazar Imam said we have to preserve these Ginans which you so much denigrate, for generations to come. This is exactly what we are going to do. regardless of what your reliable al-waez told you.
I would appreciate that this debate does not come personal and I will delete any message trying to lower the prestige and sanctity of the Ginans.
I would appreciate that this debate does not come personal and I will delete any message trying to lower the prestige and sanctity of the Ginans.
To Admin:
I eered in info given to me by a haqiqati momin,who is not an Al Waez but hasown info n contacts.
It is two ginan book of 105 small Ginans including 5 Qqasidas in it.It is 210 and not 101,becoz(I AM SORRY) he also gets info from via sources like you and me.THE one with qasidas,I have seen with my own eyes.
I am not against Ginans but the Quantity of it's floating.
Lesser the Traditional material,lighter the Shariati or Zahiri baggage.
If you are a father would your son in primary school to like to carry say 20 books on same subject? just becoz your father and his father carried it.He will start bunking the school.It is a ground reality.
As there were many pirs and Syeds,we could have say over 50 Ginans(overlapping one's) on describing the' anticipated Didar of the Imam' to it's follower.If 5 of the best ones is retained,the essence does not dilute.
There a elderly lady in our Jamatkhana,she has a divine voice and loves Ginans,singing it from last 50 years.
I tell her aunty aap yeh yeh ginan bolo.I like listening to you.She said to me Beta you are first person since last 50 years who has requested me and I fell honored and she had tears in her eyes
Out of say 7 ginans I do like,the two on top are :
Eji ALI bolo ALI bolo muniwar bhayee.
and har dum maula mara Didar mahe rehjo jee
many Ginans stir my souls and I can give it's Baatin meaning.
In out faith quality is important not the quantity.becoz with quantity
come 1000 of views ,debates and ill feeling.
The truth is is easier to remember ONE WORD,then to read, memorize,understand(depending on the level blessed upon) over say 10000 verses.
THIS IS A RARE BEAUTY OF OUR TARIQA.
REST CAN BE TRADITIONS.
I hereby rest my case unless provoked.
I eered in info given to me by a haqiqati momin,who is not an Al Waez but hasown info n contacts.
It is two ginan book of 105 small Ginans including 5 Qqasidas in it.It is 210 and not 101,becoz(I AM SORRY) he also gets info from via sources like you and me.THE one with qasidas,I have seen with my own eyes.
I am not against Ginans but the Quantity of it's floating.
Lesser the Traditional material,lighter the Shariati or Zahiri baggage.
If you are a father would your son in primary school to like to carry say 20 books on same subject? just becoz your father and his father carried it.He will start bunking the school.It is a ground reality.
As there were many pirs and Syeds,we could have say over 50 Ginans(overlapping one's) on describing the' anticipated Didar of the Imam' to it's follower.If 5 of the best ones is retained,the essence does not dilute.
There a elderly lady in our Jamatkhana,she has a divine voice and loves Ginans,singing it from last 50 years.
I tell her aunty aap yeh yeh ginan bolo.I like listening to you.She said to me Beta you are first person since last 50 years who has requested me and I fell honored and she had tears in her eyes
Out of say 7 ginans I do like,the two on top are :
Eji ALI bolo ALI bolo muniwar bhayee.
and har dum maula mara Didar mahe rehjo jee
many Ginans stir my souls and I can give it's Baatin meaning.
In out faith quality is important not the quantity.becoz with quantity
come 1000 of views ,debates and ill feeling.
The truth is is easier to remember ONE WORD,then to read, memorize,understand(depending on the level blessed upon) over say 10000 verses.
THIS IS A RARE BEAUTY OF OUR TARIQA.
REST CAN BE TRADITIONS.
I hereby rest my case unless provoked.
Admin,
Let me give more information on ginans:-
* The word ginan comes from a Sanskrit word "gyan" means knowledge.
* There are almost 650 printed ginans available now a days.
* Some Ismaili ginans are also in possession of Imam Shahi sect.
* There are Five other sects besides Imam Shahi sect, which have some Ismaili ginans in their possession composed by Pir Shams, however these sects are not practicing on Ismailism any more.
1, Nizar Sect ( Ram Dev Sect)
2, Athia Sect
3, Nath Sect
4, Bishnoi Sect
5, Ai Ma Sect
* Besides ginans there are 70 different Shahstra and Granths available.
* Ginans contains information on almost all subjects pirs has been not left any subject untouched.
* There are 60 different ginans on only one subject Meditation
( Bandagi/Ibadat) Wow!!!
* There are still many unpublished ginan's manuscripts preserved in following three location:-
1, Ismaili Tariqa Board of Pakistan in Karachi
2, The Institute of Ismailis Study London (IIS)
3, The Howards University.
* Mukhi Lalji Devraj has played big roll in the collection of Ismaili ginans he collected ginans from Sind, Kathiawad and Gujarat and from Imam Shahi sect.
* Ginan name Das Avatar composed by Pir Sadardin has played big roll in Haji Bibi Case in favour of Aga Khan III.
* The last ginan was composed was Syeda Imam Begum.
* Ginans are an alphabets and first step to climb on our Tariqa for any age person (not only kindergarten student) therefore not only 50, 101, 200 ginans are sufficient but all available ginans are necessary to read for all the times, Ginans were important in past ginans are important right now and ginans will be remain important for future generation.
* Once SMS told that if Jamats follows as per the hidayat's of ginans given by pirs then I have no need to make any Farmans!!
* Current Hazar Imam Shah Karim says Ginan is a wonderful tradition and he listens ginans daily in his Aiglemont office
That is it for now.
* You can not find any where that how this Universe was created first? not in Bhajans, not in Hindu scriptures and Puranas not in Bible or in Qasidas but you can find these information in our ginans Wow!!
Let me give more information on ginans:-
* The word ginan comes from a Sanskrit word "gyan" means knowledge.
* There are almost 650 printed ginans available now a days.
* Some Ismaili ginans are also in possession of Imam Shahi sect.
* There are Five other sects besides Imam Shahi sect, which have some Ismaili ginans in their possession composed by Pir Shams, however these sects are not practicing on Ismailism any more.
1, Nizar Sect ( Ram Dev Sect)
2, Athia Sect
3, Nath Sect
4, Bishnoi Sect
5, Ai Ma Sect
* Besides ginans there are 70 different Shahstra and Granths available.
* Ginans contains information on almost all subjects pirs has been not left any subject untouched.
* There are 60 different ginans on only one subject Meditation
( Bandagi/Ibadat) Wow!!!
* There are still many unpublished ginan's manuscripts preserved in following three location:-
1, Ismaili Tariqa Board of Pakistan in Karachi
2, The Institute of Ismailis Study London (IIS)
3, The Howards University.
* Mukhi Lalji Devraj has played big roll in the collection of Ismaili ginans he collected ginans from Sind, Kathiawad and Gujarat and from Imam Shahi sect.
* Ginan name Das Avatar composed by Pir Sadardin has played big roll in Haji Bibi Case in favour of Aga Khan III.
* The last ginan was composed was Syeda Imam Begum.
* Ginans are an alphabets and first step to climb on our Tariqa for any age person (not only kindergarten student) therefore not only 50, 101, 200 ginans are sufficient but all available ginans are necessary to read for all the times, Ginans were important in past ginans are important right now and ginans will be remain important for future generation.
* Once SMS told that if Jamats follows as per the hidayat's of ginans given by pirs then I have no need to make any Farmans!!
* Current Hazar Imam Shah Karim says Ginan is a wonderful tradition and he listens ginans daily in his Aiglemont office
That is it for now.
* You can not find any where that how this Universe was created first? not in Bhajans, not in Hindu scriptures and Puranas not in Bible or in Qasidas but you can find these information in our ginans Wow!!
To Brother Agakhani.
Firstly I Googled and got info that creation of universe is described in Koran, Zarathustra religion book and 7 other books of faith.
Marifat is not by a RIGHT of a heavy or clever reader of traditional books and of religious books.
It is out of practice of Zikr, Aasique and Khidmat.
Marifat is an ABSOLUTE privilege and blessing of ALI to whom he wishes to bestow it.(aame jene chahsu tene baksh shu,Ee tamaro Haqq nathi)
In words of Hazrat Shams al Tabrizi.
INTELLECT CAN GET YOU TO THE DOOR OF THE HOUSE BUT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO ENTER IT.
Just by reading of 100 books at Zahiri level has much lower value than ONE password blessed by ALI.
Caring unwarranted burden of traditions say 130 years back was akin to a ignorant donkey caring that burden .What Imam SMS said
sternly even stand mostly true today also.
A couplet to end it:
DUA GIRYAZARI SEE MILENGE JYAADA REHMAT ALI KI MOMINO
EELAM SE HUME AAYENGA JYAADA IMAAN ALI PE MOMINO.
ZIKR,AASHIQUE AUR KHIDMAT SE MILENGA KHUD HUME ALI SAARA.
Firstly I Googled and got info that creation of universe is described in Koran, Zarathustra religion book and 7 other books of faith.
Marifat is not by a RIGHT of a heavy or clever reader of traditional books and of religious books.
It is out of practice of Zikr, Aasique and Khidmat.
Marifat is an ABSOLUTE privilege and blessing of ALI to whom he wishes to bestow it.(aame jene chahsu tene baksh shu,Ee tamaro Haqq nathi)
In words of Hazrat Shams al Tabrizi.
INTELLECT CAN GET YOU TO THE DOOR OF THE HOUSE BUT DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO ENTER IT.
Just by reading of 100 books at Zahiri level has much lower value than ONE password blessed by ALI.
Caring unwarranted burden of traditions say 130 years back was akin to a ignorant donkey caring that burden .What Imam SMS said
sternly even stand mostly true today also.
A couplet to end it:
DUA GIRYAZARI SEE MILENGE JYAADA REHMAT ALI KI MOMINO
EELAM SE HUME AAYENGA JYAADA IMAAN ALI PE MOMINO.
ZIKR,AASHIQUE AUR KHIDMAT SE MILENGA KHUD HUME ALI SAARA.
Great!! now can you please tell me how old this universe is? What Quran say? What other 7 books say? googled., google this again in Quran, Zarathusta or even Hindu Purans, I bet you won't able to find this information any where brother but yes in Ginans you can find it!, and if you able to find how old this universe is? Even in any religios book then lease put it here.Firstly I Googled and got info that creation of universe is described in Koran, Zarathustra religion book and 7 other books of faith.
Now back to the creation of this universe; you say you read 7 other books!! that is good, let me ask you this, didn't you noticed that these all books are saying different story about creation? one book say something different the books say something different even Quran and Bible do not match with each other as long as creation of this universe is concerned. not only 7 or 10 but I tried to find out this facts in more than 100 books but til today I am not able to find it but thanks to our great pirs and their ginans in which you can find this and many other hidden facts which science still not find yet.
To Agakhani.
I did NOT mention the word read and wont do any heavy reading for futile issue.
I wrote I got basic info on typing 5 seach word (out of search result pages).
This topic heading covers future predictions in which you over understood or out of ignorance made a cocktail of explosive Doomsday precise time ,the nuke button will go off.
To cover this folly you termed it a Zahurat as both are contradictory.Your
shallow knowledge on history n composition of ginans and period and then
target audience of Pirs,you refered Ginans of anticipating n glorified future
Zahiri Didars of the Imams as Zahurat.
ONE disastrous FITNA kept leading to other misleading or shallow point of views to save one' folly.
Zahiri level of understanding Ginans the and presuming it differently to suit one
cleverness is like creating fitna and eating grass and missing fruits of our beautiful Baatin Tariqa,which
is immensely blessed in understanding sweet ,light and simple few lines out of Farmans and Zikr.
Excessive reading stresses the limit and patience of a human brain and memory storage which keeps junking along with the age of the body.
You may try reading 'WajaheDin' by Dai Nasir Khusraw to know what is spiritual intellect.Before that you must know the secular education of the
Dai also in that time in what all fields he was educated upon.
I am personally to be honest not a heavy reader as too much reading a like making Dahi kachumber of Dimag and make statements which may make one ending up as a over read and definitive fool amongst different level of readers knowledge.
GYAANI KO SHAYAD KHUDA MIL SHAKTA HAI
SACHE AASHIQUE KO KHUDA MIL HI JAATA HAI.
I did NOT mention the word read and wont do any heavy reading for futile issue.
I wrote I got basic info on typing 5 seach word (out of search result pages).
This topic heading covers future predictions in which you over understood or out of ignorance made a cocktail of explosive Doomsday precise time ,the nuke button will go off.
To cover this folly you termed it a Zahurat as both are contradictory.Your
shallow knowledge on history n composition of ginans and period and then
target audience of Pirs,you refered Ginans of anticipating n glorified future
Zahiri Didars of the Imams as Zahurat.
ONE disastrous FITNA kept leading to other misleading or shallow point of views to save one' folly.
Zahiri level of understanding Ginans the and presuming it differently to suit one
cleverness is like creating fitna and eating grass and missing fruits of our beautiful Baatin Tariqa,which
is immensely blessed in understanding sweet ,light and simple few lines out of Farmans and Zikr.
Excessive reading stresses the limit and patience of a human brain and memory storage which keeps junking along with the age of the body.
You may try reading 'WajaheDin' by Dai Nasir Khusraw to know what is spiritual intellect.Before that you must know the secular education of the
Dai also in that time in what all fields he was educated upon.
I am personally to be honest not a heavy reader as too much reading a like making Dahi kachumber of Dimag and make statements which may make one ending up as a over read and definitive fool amongst different level of readers knowledge.
GYAANI KO SHAYAD KHUDA MIL SHAKTA HAI
SACHE AASHIQUE KO KHUDA MIL HI JAATA HAI.
Forget about every thing give answer of my question; I repeat it here again how old this universe is? I am not in hurry take your time as long as you want either you search it online or read books or try to find out the answer from qasidas or Nasir Khushru's any book particullary wajah-e-din or Mr, Hunzain's books but I bet you sorry brother . You are just wasting your time cuz you will not find that how old this universe is any where bro, for the answer you have to read our wonderful tradition as describe by our MHI and this tradition is "GINANS" my buddy.
When you don't have answer then you should be quiet and accept ginans as all source for every thing.
And yes I read all books of Nasir Khusraw not only "Wajah -E-Din, safarnama and many more but these books are just books , in this books is not any prediction and this is our topic this thread , in my opinion books are just ordinary books nothing new and I of course know what is roll of "DAIS" in. my thinking 'DAI IS ONLY DAI NOT A PIR.
When you don't have answer then you should be quiet and accept ginans as all source for every thing.
And yes I read all books of Nasir Khusraw not only "Wajah -E-Din, safarnama and many more but these books are just books , in this books is not any prediction and this is our topic this thread , in my opinion books are just ordinary books nothing new and I of course know what is roll of "DAIS" in. my thinking 'DAI IS ONLY DAI NOT A PIR.
To brother Agakhani.
To you question on how old is the universe? I am not trying to find one.
Is this verse recited in jamatkhanas and Has Any Imam has refered this verse or endorsed this verse.
Pirs has used figure of lakh chorayasi,nobody know how this figure was landed upon.Anything aproved is not a word of God but of a inspired sufi.
The word Pir can be of Persian or Hindustani origin,before that title in Arabic word of Dai was used.
In India, Pakistan and Bangladesh there are Dargahs of many Pirs in hundred.It is a word still used for Learned muslim holy man.
The legacy of Nasir Khusraw has flourished since last 1000.
It has over time delivered around 20 million haqiqati to marfati momin
with glow of light on face from birth.
This also from a sparsely populated region of the world.noy many left the faith inspite of acute poverty(poverty can move a person easily from faith), no jamatkahanas in communist rule
or even physical presence of iman over 1000 years.
That was the infinte beauty of Qasida and Farmanbardari.
While we Khojas with trade and commerce skill and present and Didars of Imam since few centuries have had sad history till silver jubilee of Imam SMS.
If we calculate 750 years at population growth rate of 4% per year.
It comes to just 160 in simple rate and if we compound it yearly it come just 24only thru thier progeny stuck to siratal mustakim.
It is sad truth of depletion over centuries.
I am sure over 12 pirs and sayyeds composed ginan in numbers and did
woderful pirantan work then.
The biggest culprit in this was the baggage of traditons,which succeeded in micro percentage.
No wonder Hazar Imam is enriching the Jamat with Qasidas,what has delivered and cutting to size on ongoing basis baggage of traditions which delivered rather little n still many struggling at Tariqat level.
As for Nasir Khusraw, he is refered as Sayyedna,Dai ,Hakim and Pir
He is referred as Pir by Jamats in Badakshan.
Hazar Imam has referred him as Sayedna in his speech on foundation laying
ceremont of Dushanbe Ismaili center. and placed him as great poineer amongst Ismaili Thinkers over and above Ibn sina, Farabi and Al Kindi.
Has Hazar Imam taken names of Pirs in any speeches in any ceremonies of new Ismaili centers in Khoja traditions areas?
Hazar Imam picks and chooses his word perfectly.
I always get fascinated by it and try to study it.
In classical english vocabulary the word Wonderful is before a word which
has a shelf life i.e holidays, dress, place, college life, some experience of sort.
For Qasida ,He is said in Farman it being of 'Very Important.'
Now make a phrase with that word,it goes on till eternity.
Your irrevocable opinion on Qasidas in past and now as a joke.
is exactly opposite to Hazar Imam s Farmans.
The forum must know who is the Satan, a Hindu masking as a Khoja.
KHOTE ILAM AUR GUSSE SE INSAAN SHAITAN BAN JATA HAI
AAP TO IMAANI HO,ALI KE ALFAZ KO MAAN AUR SALAMI DO.
To you question on how old is the universe? I am not trying to find one.
Is this verse recited in jamatkhanas and Has Any Imam has refered this verse or endorsed this verse.
Pirs has used figure of lakh chorayasi,nobody know how this figure was landed upon.Anything aproved is not a word of God but of a inspired sufi.
The word Pir can be of Persian or Hindustani origin,before that title in Arabic word of Dai was used.
In India, Pakistan and Bangladesh there are Dargahs of many Pirs in hundred.It is a word still used for Learned muslim holy man.
The legacy of Nasir Khusraw has flourished since last 1000.
It has over time delivered around 20 million haqiqati to marfati momin
with glow of light on face from birth.
This also from a sparsely populated region of the world.noy many left the faith inspite of acute poverty(poverty can move a person easily from faith), no jamatkahanas in communist rule
or even physical presence of iman over 1000 years.
That was the infinte beauty of Qasida and Farmanbardari.
While we Khojas with trade and commerce skill and present and Didars of Imam since few centuries have had sad history till silver jubilee of Imam SMS.
If we calculate 750 years at population growth rate of 4% per year.
It comes to just 160 in simple rate and if we compound it yearly it come just 24only thru thier progeny stuck to siratal mustakim.
It is sad truth of depletion over centuries.
I am sure over 12 pirs and sayyeds composed ginan in numbers and did
woderful pirantan work then.
The biggest culprit in this was the baggage of traditons,which succeeded in micro percentage.
No wonder Hazar Imam is enriching the Jamat with Qasidas,what has delivered and cutting to size on ongoing basis baggage of traditions which delivered rather little n still many struggling at Tariqat level.
As for Nasir Khusraw, he is refered as Sayyedna,Dai ,Hakim and Pir
He is referred as Pir by Jamats in Badakshan.
Hazar Imam has referred him as Sayedna in his speech on foundation laying
ceremont of Dushanbe Ismaili center. and placed him as great poineer amongst Ismaili Thinkers over and above Ibn sina, Farabi and Al Kindi.
Has Hazar Imam taken names of Pirs in any speeches in any ceremonies of new Ismaili centers in Khoja traditions areas?
Hazar Imam picks and chooses his word perfectly.
I always get fascinated by it and try to study it.
In classical english vocabulary the word Wonderful is before a word which
has a shelf life i.e holidays, dress, place, college life, some experience of sort.
For Qasida ,He is said in Farman it being of 'Very Important.'
Now make a phrase with that word,it goes on till eternity.
Your irrevocable opinion on Qasidas in past and now as a joke.
is exactly opposite to Hazar Imam s Farmans.
The forum must know who is the Satan, a Hindu masking as a Khoja.
KHOTE ILAM AUR GUSSE SE INSAAN SHAITAN BAN JATA HAI
AAP TO IMAANI HO,ALI KE ALFAZ KO MAAN AUR SALAMI DO.
Half knowledge is dangerous
Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah has referred to the word "Lakh Chorasi." If you have problems with our Imam's farmans, he has said you can leave the faith but you can not reform it.
No I will not give you the reference. Please do some research before posting. Start reading Farmans and some ismaili books. You will have a fair idea of our faith.
When Imam says Ginans are for generations YET to be born, your concept of shelf life is already kaput ab initio.
There is also an ismaili definition of Pir in the sense of "Satadhari Pir" and in the Ismaili definition which is the names of Pirs recognised (by the Imam) in the Old Dua. The Pir in our definition is not a "sage", he is the Imam Mustawda, the highest Hujat ul Imam. Hazrat Hasan was the Pir, he was the Imam Mustawda. Shah Karim is the Pir also and he also combined the status of The Imam.
When Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah appointed Shah Karim as Imam and Pir of ALL Ismailis, he did not appoint Shah Karim as Pir of Khojas as you seems to think not did he appoint him as a sage.
To say there are thousands of Pirs is same as to say there are millions of Imams in all the Masjid and it to equate our Imam to some of these preachers. This is not knowledge, this is mockery of the Ismaili faith. The term Imam in Ismailism is not used for a person conducting ceremonies in Masjid, it is used for the Manifestation of the Noor.
There is no problem with Qasidas, those written by our Imams are respected even by Khojas, as having the status of farmans because they are written by the Imams. Those written by poets of today and yesterday be they ismailis or Sufis or even Ithnashris are much more like the present day Geet and Mowla ji Shaan. We love them because they glorify our Imam, but they are not like Farmans. They do not have the status of Imam's Qasida.
Some of the postings we we are reading above are expected on non-ismailis web sites and in anti-Ismaili web sites, they are not expected from Ismailis posting on an Ismaili website.
Last but not least, I don't want to see any posting targeting names of any person that post and I don't want to see any personal dispute here or I will start deleting accounts.
www.ismaili.net
Share The Knowledge!
Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah has referred to the word "Lakh Chorasi." If you have problems with our Imam's farmans, he has said you can leave the faith but you can not reform it.
No I will not give you the reference. Please do some research before posting. Start reading Farmans and some ismaili books. You will have a fair idea of our faith.
When Imam says Ginans are for generations YET to be born, your concept of shelf life is already kaput ab initio.
There is also an ismaili definition of Pir in the sense of "Satadhari Pir" and in the Ismaili definition which is the names of Pirs recognised (by the Imam) in the Old Dua. The Pir in our definition is not a "sage", he is the Imam Mustawda, the highest Hujat ul Imam. Hazrat Hasan was the Pir, he was the Imam Mustawda. Shah Karim is the Pir also and he also combined the status of The Imam.
When Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah appointed Shah Karim as Imam and Pir of ALL Ismailis, he did not appoint Shah Karim as Pir of Khojas as you seems to think not did he appoint him as a sage.
To say there are thousands of Pirs is same as to say there are millions of Imams in all the Masjid and it to equate our Imam to some of these preachers. This is not knowledge, this is mockery of the Ismaili faith. The term Imam in Ismailism is not used for a person conducting ceremonies in Masjid, it is used for the Manifestation of the Noor.
There is no problem with Qasidas, those written by our Imams are respected even by Khojas, as having the status of farmans because they are written by the Imams. Those written by poets of today and yesterday be they ismailis or Sufis or even Ithnashris are much more like the present day Geet and Mowla ji Shaan. We love them because they glorify our Imam, but they are not like Farmans. They do not have the status of Imam's Qasida.
Some of the postings we we are reading above are expected on non-ismailis web sites and in anti-Ismaili web sites, they are not expected from Ismailis posting on an Ismaili website.
Last but not least, I don't want to see any posting targeting names of any person that post and I don't want to see any personal dispute here or I will start deleting accounts.
www.ismaili.net
Share The Knowledge!
Please note that and this is for forever that; I don't oppose the qasidas, I never said that matter of facts Qasidas are also important in our religion, our few imams had alos wrote Qasidas in past, but my main concern was and still is, you cannot find any detailed informatiom in specific topics in Qasidas; for a example how to sit in Bandagi?, how to start Bandagi?, how this universe was created? what was the main reason of this creation? how old this universe is? how many other universes is in this galaxy? how this universe will be destroyed? How many Adams were?these all informations has been beautifully described in 'ginan-e sharif" only thing you need to do is read ginans so, basically ginans are superior than everything else including qasidas and other literatures composed by Dais, but wait!!! that doesn't mean I don't like Qasida or don't listen it or read it, I do listen it with respect.
To Admin:
I appreciate your reply on word Pir,I was defining the word not the status.
I am aware that in Ismaili Imamat, It is a title which is revered and blessed akin to sainthood and same as Hujjat Dai during Fatimid era.
I am pleased to see two Haqiqati momins defending Ginans with passion and vigour,Same should be spirit.If it was me ,I would have butchered any outsider speaking against Ginans without reasoning.
What is have written about our history is true and out of my heart.
Fact and figures speak for themselves.
It is the primary reason,why I dislike and vocally critical of unwarranted baggage of our traditions.It does not mean one being an anti Ismaili.
Truth needs to be known to all in our community from top to down who are in denial frame of thoughts.
I personally love,cherish and advocate our Sufi traditions of our faith
in which we just to understand need few word or lines from Imams to to be blessed.
Our Tariqa is very true ,light in practice n understanding and visible
with glow of light.It will be THE only Faith standing on this planet earth when Shariat of all religions is abolished.
For many centuries traditions were more honored n valued than Tariqa for many reasons then.
If I speak honestly you feel grumpy because truth does pinch a Momim
who has passion and love for Ginans.
In very second posting on the forum,I addressed you as a pillar strong Momin,but after observing you, I feel you are a Rock solid Momin,because
pillars can crumble under movement of earthquake and not the mountains.
If you delete my account it's fine,At Marfat one has to live with 100% truth and no diplomacy.
HUM TO ALI KE AASHIQ AUR VAKIL HAI.
AAP NARAZ HO YA KHUSH WO AAP KI SAMAJ
AUR AAP KA IMAAN.
I appreciate your reply on word Pir,I was defining the word not the status.
I am aware that in Ismaili Imamat, It is a title which is revered and blessed akin to sainthood and same as Hujjat Dai during Fatimid era.
I am pleased to see two Haqiqati momins defending Ginans with passion and vigour,Same should be spirit.If it was me ,I would have butchered any outsider speaking against Ginans without reasoning.
What is have written about our history is true and out of my heart.
Fact and figures speak for themselves.
It is the primary reason,why I dislike and vocally critical of unwarranted baggage of our traditions.It does not mean one being an anti Ismaili.
Truth needs to be known to all in our community from top to down who are in denial frame of thoughts.
I personally love,cherish and advocate our Sufi traditions of our faith
in which we just to understand need few word or lines from Imams to to be blessed.
Our Tariqa is very true ,light in practice n understanding and visible
with glow of light.It will be THE only Faith standing on this planet earth when Shariat of all religions is abolished.
For many centuries traditions were more honored n valued than Tariqa for many reasons then.
If I speak honestly you feel grumpy because truth does pinch a Momim
who has passion and love for Ginans.
In very second posting on the forum,I addressed you as a pillar strong Momin,but after observing you, I feel you are a Rock solid Momin,because
pillars can crumble under movement of earthquake and not the mountains.
If you delete my account it's fine,At Marfat one has to live with 100% truth and no diplomacy.
HUM TO ALI KE AASHIQ AUR VAKIL HAI.
AAP NARAZ HO YA KHUSH WO AAP KI SAMAJ
AUR AAP KA IMAAN.