MHI And Next Imam

Post by **Admin** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:22 pm

You are mistaken. First of all, there are more than one Mata Salamat, the Begum of SMS was one but she was not Ithna Ashari. The one who was and whose reference I think Karim was giving was the mother of SMS?

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:16 am

Admin wrote:You are mistaken. First of all, there are more than one Mata Salamat, the Begum of SMS was one but she was not Ithna Ashari. The one who was and whose reference I think Karim was giving was the mother of SMS?

You are referring to Lady Shams Alia Mulk - the wife of Aga Ali Shah - the mother of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah.

speaking of Ahle Bayt;

Musa Kazim was the son of an Imam who didn't follow the Imam and claimed Imamat for himself.
Mustaeli was another son of another Imam.
Haji Bibi was also the granddaughter of an Imam....

seriously - we're going to keep letting Shiraz rile us up?

Shams

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:24 pm

Our very own ismaili history claims that SMS used to hold the holy quran on his head and chant the name of imams [Imam hussain[as] in particular] during ashura.

As per Ismaili akida Imam can do anything and whatever he wants to do but we can't follow him, this topic has been discussed many times in past.

There are many Farmans of SMS in Kalam E Imam Mubin on Moharam and in those farmans Imam restricted Ismailis on mourning during Moharam.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:24 pm

seriously - we're going to keep letting Shiraz rile us up?

I agree with Shams, Shiraz act like he is a king in this forum and it is sad that nobody care about that except few.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:20 pm

You are referring to Lady Shams Alia Mulk - the wife of Aga Ali Shah - the mother of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah.

speaking of Ahle Bayt;

Musa Kazim was the son of an Imam who didn't follow the Imam and claimed Imamat for himself.
Mustaeli was another son of another Imam.
Haji Bibi was also the granddaughter of an Imam....

seriously - we're going to keep letting Shiraz rile us up?

Shams

ShamB bhai I dunno why you have to put me into all this....1st of it wasnt me who said our 48th imam's wife used to participate in ashura, it was agakhani bhai

Shiraz.Virani said :

Take Mata Salamat as an example, she travelled all the way from pakistan to mecca just to bow down and kiss the black stone...Why would she do that ??

@ Above is what I said about the wife of 48th imam to which agakhani bhai replied

AgaKhani said :

It is not hidden any more that she was Ishnashari and according my patents they show her participating in Moharum/Ashura In Hasanabad or Wadi but she was converted in Ismailism latter on.

and then agakhani bhai got confused and said :

Not necessarily Shiraz, lets take example of Mata Salamat even she married to Imam SMS , she was practicing Ishnaashri sect until 1957 and SMS knew that she was not an Ismaili and therefore he permitted her to participate in Moharam/Ashura now come back to your question if any one becomes Ismaili naturally after marriage to Imam then SMS had never ever permitted her to participate in Ashura because Isamilis doesn't mourning on the death of any Imam. we as a shia accept Imam Hussain as our imam and accept his and his other family member's sacrifices in battle of Karbala but some how we haven't accepted Mahoram in our ritual.

I dont think agakhani bhai did this purposely, its just that he got confused between the mother of our 48th imam and his wife

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:42 am

I dont think agakhani bhai did this purposely, its just that he got confused between the mother of our 48th imam and his wife

Nope, I didn't confused before Shiraz, and nor I confused right now, matter of fact there were not only two mata salamat as you mentioned above but for your kind information there were three mata salamat, I knew it before my post that there were three mata Salamat, now looking the confusion going on among some confused readers in this forum including Admin and Shiraz, I thought I should put the detail below for their easy understanding:-

1, PI'R SARKAR MA'TA SALAAMAT:-

After the death of Pir Mirza Mohammed Ba'qir Imam Agha Hasanali Shah appointed his own mother as the Pir. Her name was Mariam Khatoon and she was born in year 1744, She was a very good speaker and a highly learned woman. The Holy Imam had conferred upon her the title of Mata Salaamat. She was addressed as Pir Bibi Sarkar or Sarkar Mata
Salaamat.
She was sent to India by the Holy Imam in 1245 A.H. (A.D. 1829). She was the first Holy Pir who visited India in 369 years since the death of Pir Tajdin in 876 A.H * She also travelled to the Persian Gulf countries to visit the jamats there. When she passed away in Mahalat**, in about 1248 A.H., the Holy Imam took over the work of the Pir as well. She never lived in India permanently but she died in KERA, KATCHH where her tomb still there according on history book of Ismaili pir but she was burried in Najaf. One rich from Kera Katchh name Habib Ibrahim he and and some Ismaili families from his side stop to give dasond to Imam therefore Mowla sent her in Katchh.

2, SECOND MATA SALAAMAT:-
She was mother of Sultan Mohammad Shah (s.a.) and wife of Aga Ali Shah(s.a.), her name was Nawab Aulia Shamsul-Mulk, she was a granddaughter of Fateh Ali Shah Kachar of Persia, she was Ishnashari first but latter on she was converted in Ismailism.
Many older jamati members including my parents who used to live in Hasanabad and Wadi, Mumbai show her to participates in Ashura in month of Moharam when she was Ishnashari, You can also hear this facts in many waez of Rai Abu Ali.

3, MATA SLAMAT, THE WIFE OF SMS

She was wife of Sulatan Mohammad Shah(s.a.) her name was Yvonne Blanche Labrousse, She converted to Islam and became known as Umm Habiba (Little Mother of the Beloved). In 1954, but Sultan Mohammad Shah(s.a.) named her as a 'MATA SALAMAT" therefore we calling her as mata salamat as well. Neither she had a pir title nor she was an Ishanashri but she was a Chirstin before her convertion in Ismailism so basically she never participate in Ashura.

* I personally do not agree with this; that she came in India after Pir Tajdin because there were few appointed pirs in India even after pir Tajdin (s.a.).

** There is a controversy about her death! where was she really died? some say she died in Mahalat but in one book name "Pir padharya Apne Dwar -2 it is quoted that she died in Kera, Katchh and once SMS also visited her tomb in year 1903 and ordered to keep her tomb clean & neat and keep burning Loban all the time. Her tomb is still in Kera, Katchh. SMS also said that the importance of this tomb in Katchh has same importance like the tomb in Hasanabad of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (s.a.).

So, basically Shiraz I was not confused before nor I confused right now.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:54 am

Some of my views:

There was one concern about meaning of Noor. Meaning of Noor is light.

Given below is from the interview of Imam on Sunday Times in 1965

Are you, for all believing Ismailis, a symbol of their Faith?

"Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the "NOOR" a word which means "The Light" The NOOR has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But My work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life."

____________________________________________________________

Now comes the question of infallibility. In the same interview, it is mentioned

You have been compared to the Pope. Is your word, like his infallible?

"The Imam's word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It's one of the particularities of Ismailis......
____________________________________________________________

Shiraz, if you think guide is imperfect, capable of committing errors then answer this question what is need to follow someone who is imperfect?
Why God has sent Noor which can misguide people...Can you give any example where any prophet has misguided people??
It seems you are well aware of Quranic verses. I hope you remember the one, in which Allah says He has purified Ahle-Bayt.
If it is in Quran also that they are purified, then why do you think they can misguide or they are misguided sometimes.
__________________________________________________________

In Quran in Surah Noor it is mentioned that Allah is Noor of Earth and Heavens. So I hope you can see it clearly there.

In one of the earlier post, Karim mentioned that Imam can appear different depending on audience. Its true
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said “I am everything to everybody. If you consider me God, I am your God. If you consider me your Spiritual Father, I am your Spiritual Father. If you consider me your Imam, I am your Imam. If you consider me only your friend, I am your friend and so on. It depends on your faith. You, too, are a different person to different people: you are son to your parents, a father to your children, a brother to your siblings, etc. But anybody who considers me God at a Shariati level is no better than a “Bhut Parast”(idol worshipper or an iconolater). At the Marfati level, this question does not arise”.
(Source: My glorious fortnight with Sir Sultan Mohamed Shah) You can read the complete text from anecdote section, if you wish so.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:16 am

I am everything to everybody. If you consider me God, I am your God.

Are there any farmans in which we can find above quote? if yes kindly let me know which farman and where it was delivered?

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:53 am

agakhani wrote:
I am everything to everybody. If you consider me God, I am your God.
Are there any farmans in which we can find above quote? if yes kindly let me know which farman and where it was delivered?

Ya Ali Madad,

Following was not taken from Farman. Its given in an article by Dr. Nathoo

You can read the complete article which is very interesting in the following link

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=335

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:48 pm

Thanks for the link, If you find any farman of SMS or current Imam saying that he is God then please let me know.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:11 pm

Some of my views:

There was one concern about meaning of Noor. Meaning of Noor is light.

Given below is from the interview of Imam on Sunday Times in 1965

Are you, for all believing Ismailis, a symbol of their Faith?

"Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the "NOOR" a word which means "The Light" The NOOR has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But My work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life."

Brother munir, @ above interview Imam said Noor= Light.....But what is that light ?

For me Noor = Guidance[Light]

Now comes the question of infallibility. In the same interview, it is mentioned

You have been compared to the Pope. Is your word, like his infallible?

"The Imam's word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It's one of the particularities of Ismailis......

So taking everything he says by word makes him infallible ??? The imam himself admitted that he makes mistakes and learns from it

Shiraz, if you think guide is imperfect, capable of committing errors then answer this question what is need to follow someone who is imperfect?

Good question brother, according to quran there are several prophets who committed mistakes in the past so does that mean we should not treat them as prophets ??

Our holy imam H.Imam Jafer As Sadiq[as] once said :

In his “Siyar A’laam un-Nubulaa” at page 259 Dhahabi narrated:

From Abdul Jabar ibn Al-Abbas al-Hamadani: ”Jafar as-Sadiq came to them when they were leaving Madinah and told them: You are inshallah from amongst the best of people from your country (or from your Egypt) So report to them from me: He who claims that I’m an infallible imam who must be obeyed, I disassociate myself from him and he who claims that I disassociate myself from Abu Bakr and Umar, I disassociate myself from him.”

Imam Ali[as]....Sher E Khuda once said :

Ali(as) said: “……….Do not evade me as the people of passion are (to be) evaded, do not meet me with flattery and do not think that I shall take it ill if a true thing is said to me, because the person who feels disgusted when truth is said to him or a just matter is placed before him would find it more difficult to act upon them. Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring . I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me in matters in which He is more powerful than I. Certainly, I and you are slaves owned by Allah, other than Whom there is no Lord except Him. He owns our selves which we do not own. He took us from where we were towards what means prosperity to us. He altered our straying into guidance and gave us intelligence after blindness.” [Nahjul balagha, sermon 215]

So once Nafe’ bin Jubayr said to him(Imam Zain ul Abedin[as]), ”you are Sayyid and you are sitting in the majlis of a slave.” to which Imam replied, ”knowledge is to be taken, no matter from where it comes". Siyar (4/388).

Our current imam was taught about islam and its tenants by the private tutor and not by the 48th imam himself !!

So yes, a guide may sometimes need the guidance

It seems you are well aware of Quranic verses. I hope you remember the one, in which Allah says He has purified Ahle-Bayt.
If it is in Quran also that they are purified, then why do you think they can misguide or they are misguided sometimes.

What does purification has to do anything with infallibility brother munir ?? ....There are verses where allah[swt] tells us of his wish to purify believers too !!! Like for example :

“Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful." (Quran, 5:6)

When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness(rijz) of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby.(8:11)

There are many other verses too brother but does that mean if a momin is purified by allah[swt] he/she would become infallible ??

The purification mentioned in the verse (33:33) was not meant to make anyone infallible, but rather simply to expiate them for past mistakes or errors or sins. We will never find anybody who says that the purification mentioned in those mentioned verses was meant to make the Prophet’s[saw] family members or the believers into infallibles.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:18 pm

I would suggest that you properly read Quran 36:12

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:29 pm

@ bro Shiraz virani,

It is in Quran, “Verily Allah desires to remove all blemishes from You, O Ahle bait and to purify you with a perfect purification.” When the above verse was revealed Prophet Muhammad spread his cloak over Hazrat Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain and declared, “These are the members of My house and Allah has purified them all of any un cleanness and granted them His mercy. We serve as the tree of Prophet Hood, the pillar of mission, the place of passage of angels, the house of mercy and the wealth of knowledge.”

As per your understanding light means guidance. I agree with it but that is only one way of interpreting it. Noor can be interpreted in other ways too.
It can be interpreted as the divine light which Prophet and Imam possess.
God says in Quran that Allah is Noor.
Given below is translation of Ayah-e-Noor from Holy Quran
"Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His light is as if there were a niche and within it a lamp: the lamp enclosed in glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His light: Allah doth set forth parables for men: and God doth know all things."

Previously there had been lot of discussion on interpretation of this verse. I think Kmaherali, can direct you to the topics, where it was discussed in detail. However, the purpose of posting it here is that Allah has said He is light.

Syed Ahmed Shah says in Si harfi “The indescribable Lord created a tree and gave it two branches. The first one is the light of Muhammad Mustafa and the other one is the light of Ali Murtaza. Mother Fatima is also with them. Hazrat Hassan and Imam Hussain are also playing in the light.”
Pir Shahbuddin Shah has written in Risala dar haqiqat deen “The sacred Light which manifested in Muhammad and Ali continued in the world through Fatima, in her sons, Hasan and Hussain, and no power in the world can extinguish this Light. It is said: "they wanted to extinguish the Light of God, but God brings His light through, to the end", i.e. to the completion of its mission.”

Now regarding the sayings of Prophet it is mentioned in Quran "It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path."(33:36 Quran) If (God forbid) Prophet or Imam himself can commit mistake then how can they show right path?

You have mentioned about mistakes committed by prophets. Every act of Prophet (including mistakes) have some purposes behind it. Some times, these acts may had been demonstrated deliberately to serve as message for the people living at that time and for coming generation. Take example of Hazrat Adam. What we can learn from the story of Hazrat Adam? There is clear message to obey Allah.
On the other hand if you see, Was God not aware that Adam will eat the fruit? Had God not intended to create human beings in this world? Are we existing in this world simple because of small disobedient act of Hazrat Adam? Certainly not. So every act of Prophet (including some of their acts which appears to be the mistake) has some purposes.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:22 am

For me Noor = Guidance[Light]

Here you are Shiraz, I disagree with your above meaning, sorry but....
some peoples never give up there beliefs

sorry again brother but it is true that, these peoples never change their mind once some thing they uttered or some thing they already wrote even after some one prove them wrong, May be they are not ready to accept their defeat even they know that they were wrong before and they are wrong right now I am just talking about for everyone including my self too.
اپنی تنگادی اونچی ہی رکھتے ہے now back to the topic, if we accept the meaning of 'Noor' as 'guidance' as you quoted above then where is the guides for other religions peoples? Does not these peoples deserve guidance from Allah? Why we can't see their guidance? forget about the ismailis because they have guide in thier Imam.
In my opinion, Noor = guidance does not justify Allah's strength and his real power because Allah's noor is way above the 'guidance' Noor is everything it is a light, it is a enlightened power , beautiful, attractive, noble, illumination, wise, radiant and guide, but definitely not only guidance it is too small to definite Allah's noor in only one word "Guidance".

In Ayat -"Noor" Allahtala beautifully explained the true meaning of word "NOOR" giving examples of many things and as a Quranic Ustad you know this better then me.

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:52 pm

star_munir wrote:Some of my views:

There was one concern about meaning of Noor. Meaning of Noor is light.

Given below is from the interview of Imam on Sunday Times in 1965

Are you, for all believing Ismailis, a symbol of their Faith?

"Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the "NOOR" a word which means "The Light" The NOOR has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But My work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life."

____________________________________________________________

Now comes the question of infallibility. In the same interview, it is mentioned

You have been compared to the Pope. Is your word, like his infallible?

"The Imam's word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It's one of the particularities of Ismailis......
____________________________________________________________

Shiraz, if you think guide is imperfect, capable of committing errors then answer this question what is need to follow someone who is imperfect?
Why God has sent Noor which can misguide people...Can you give any example where any prophet has misguided people??
It seems you are well aware of Quranic verses. I hope you remember the one, in which Allah says He has purified Ahle-Bayt.
If it is in Quran also that they are purified, then why do you think they can misguide or they are misguided sometimes.
__________________________________________________________

In Quran in Surah Noor it is mentioned that Allah is Noor of Earth and Heavens. So I hope you can see it clearly there.

In one of the earlier post, Karim mentioned that Imam can appear different depending on audience. Its true
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said “I am everything to everybody. If you consider me God, I am your God. If you consider me your Spiritual Father, I am your Spiritual Father. If you consider me your Imam, I am your Imam. If you consider me only your friend, I am your friend and so on. It depends on your faith. You, too, are a different person to different people: you are son to your parents, a father to your children, a brother to your siblings, etc. But anybody who considers me God at a Shariati level is no better than a “Bhut Parast”(idol worshipper or an iconolater). At the Marfati level, this question does not arise”.
(Source: My glorious fortnight with Sir Sultan Mohamed Shah) You can read the complete text from anecdote section, if you wish so.

Very well put together, brother monir. If one (viru) has a little belief (Iman) and intellect, he would get it, but alas he don't.

@shiraz.virani : Then how about your mentor (akbarali maherali)? Does he make mistakes?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:16 pm

@shiraz.virani : Then how about your mentor (akbarali maherali)? Does he make mistakes?

Good question Tret, but I think Shiraz is more influenced under Hunzaii rather than A.M. if you read his recent posts i.e Imam can marry with his murid which is exactly matching with Hunzai's belief.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:41 pm

@ bro Shiraz virani,

It is in Quran, “Verily Allah desires to remove all blemishes from You, O Ahle bait and to purify you with a perfect purification.” When the above verse was revealed Prophet Muhammad spread his cloak over Hazrat Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain and declared, “These are the members of My house and Allah has purified them all of any un cleanness and granted them His mercy. We serve as the tree of Prophet Hood, the pillar of mission, the place of passage of angels, the house of mercy and the wealth of knowledge.”

Again brother munir where do you see the term infallible in those holy verses ??

If by purification one becomes infallible then you and me should become infallible on every chandraat, is it not ??

As per your understanding light means guidance. I agree with it but that is only one way of interpreting it. Noor can be interpreted in other ways too.
It can be interpreted as the divine light which Prophet and Imam possess.
God says in Quran that Allah is Noor.
Given below is translation of Ayah-e-Noor from Holy Quran
"Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His light is as if there were a niche and within it a lamp: the lamp enclosed in glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His light: Allah doth set forth parables for men: and God doth know all things."

Previously there had been lot of discussion on interpretation of this verse. I think Kmaherali, can direct you to the topics, where it was discussed in detail. However, the purpose of posting it here is that Allah has said He is light.

Thank you brother for atleast agreeing with my interpretation of the term noor and I have no objection with you interpretation [if you have any] because as you said noor can have various different interpretation and I agree with you !!

Syed Ahmed Shah says in Si harfi “The indescribable Lord created a tree and gave it two branches. The first one is the light of Muhammad Mustafa and the other one is the light of Ali Murtaza. Mother Fatima is also with them. Hazrat Hassan and Imam Hussain are also playing in the light.”
Pir Shahbuddin Shah has written in Risala dar haqiqat deen “The sacred Light which manifested in Muhammad and Ali continued in the world through Fatima, in her sons, Hasan and Hussain, and no power in the world can extinguish this Light. It is said: "they wanted to extinguish the Light of God, but God brings His light through, to the end", i.e. to the completion of its mission.”

True !!....There must be a living guide[imam] present to give guidance to his momins who seek it !...I completely agree with what Sayyed Shahbuddin Shah said.

Now regarding the sayings of Prophet it is mentioned in Quran "It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path."(33:36 Quran) If (God forbid) Prophet or Imam himself can commit mistake then how can they show right path?

Yes 100% agreed brother but then again in the very same quran allah[swt] says " obey allah[swt], his messenger[saw] and those vested with authority, and the verse continues ......if you still are in a dispute refer it to allah[swt] or his messenger[saw] as it is the best and just act

Clearly if at all you wanna talk about infallibility then there is only 2 person that I know of that can come in that category :

1] Allah[swt] himself and
2] Rasool[saw]

Cleary allah[swt] wants momins to refer to allah[swt] or rasool[saw] if they still cant settle their dispute....you dont see refer to imams[as] or those vested with authority over their because imams[as] can and do commit mistakes !!

Obeying them is a momins haq.....so obaying imams[as] is every momins haq....But if they are still not satisfied with the answer or guidance then as allah[swt] has ordered , one must refer it to allah[swt] himself as he is all knowing and just !!!

@ above answers your question when you asked if a guide commits mistake then why follow him ???

You have mentioned about mistakes committed by prophets. Every act of Prophet (including mistakes) have some purposes behind it. Some times, these acts may had been demonstrated deliberately to serve as message for the people living at that time and for coming generation. Take example of Hazrat Adam. What we can learn from the story of Hazrat Adam? There is clear message to obey Allah.
On the other hand if you see, Was God not aware that Adam will eat the fruit? Had God not intended to create human beings in this world? Are we existing in this world simple because of small disobedient act of Hazrat Adam? Certainly not. So every act of Prophet (including some of their acts which appears to be the mistake) has some purposes.

Beautifully explained munir bhai, cant agree more !!...But I would like to add few more things to it if I could....We humans always learn for our mistakes and the purpose might or might not be deliberate by prophets[as]...but the moral of the story is that we learn from our mistakes !

Like for example the present Imam when first got into the airline business he came under heavy losses and he then sought the help from professionals who give him guidance about how that business works and now the business is masha allah booming and getting back on track and not just that he went on to collaborate with air uganda and insha allah may be more if future ...but as our holy Imam, H.Imam Ali[as] says "one always learns from craddle to grave"

But I have to tell you munir bhai I just simply loved the way you explained each and everything.....simply outstanding brother !!...Thank You

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:22 pm

Here you are Shiraz, I disagree with your above meaning, sorry but....
some peoples never give up there beliefs sorry again brother but it is true that, these peoples never change their mind once some thing they uttered or some thing they already wrote even after some one prove them wrong, May be they are not ready to accept their defeat even they know that they were wrong before and they are wrong right now I am just talking about for everyone including my self too.
اپنی تنگادی اونچی ہی رکھتے ہے now back to the topic, if we accept the meaning of 'Noor' as 'guidance' as you quoted above then where is the guides for other religions peoples? Does not these peoples deserve guidance from Allah? Why we can't see their guidance? forget about the ismailis because they have guide in thier Imam.
In my opinion, Noor = guidance does not justify Allah's strength and his real power because Allah's noor is way above the 'guidance' Noor is everything it is a light, it is a enlightened power , beautiful, attractive, noble, illumination, wise, radiant and guide, but definitely not only guidance it is too small to definite Allah's noor in only one word "Guidance".

In Ayat -"Noor" Allahtala beautifully explained the true meaning of word "NOOR" giving examples of many things and as a Quranic Ustad you know this better then me.

Brother agakhani its completely ok with me if you dont agree with me....there is this freedom of speech on this forum and you are most welcome to give us your input. Im not forcing anybody to believe what I believe and neither do I expect you to impose your views on me !!...Lets just learn different interpretation and decide which one is better for ourselves...thats the beauty of holy quran !

Im not no quranic ustaad, Its just that whenever I get a chance or feel depressed I open the book and start reading....I think the real ustaad is Munir bhai, ShamB bhai, Maherali bhai and Unnalhaq bhai because they have this deep knowledge about ismailism which I totally lack in !!

Yes I sometimes go against them like for example the topic reincarnation where I said all kinds of things to maherali bhai but in the end it was him and others who helped me in understanding the concept of reincarnation....so my brother, Im not ustaad nor do I treat myself as such..I just always come up with questions and answers which unfortunately does not sit well with most ismailis.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:35 pm

Thanks for the appreciation but I am certainly not master. I know little and have learned much from this website and the discussions of the members in the forum.

I agree with the admin, there should not be personal attacks in the forum. Pir Sadardin says in Buj Niranjan to ask your self about where you are and not to become judgmental about the acts of others.

I agree that one way of interpreting noor can be divine guidance
In Ginan we say "ginan bolo re neet noore bhariya" Ginans are filled with noor which probably means guidance. However, as I mentioned earlier the word noor is not limited with the guidance only and can be interpreted in other ways, for which I had given references in my previous post.

As for the perfect purification mentioned in Quran, it is different from the example of Chandraat, which you have given. After having chanta and other such ceremonies, people do again engage in committing sins and therefore again becomes impure. Thats why chanta, dua karawi, saying astaghfar is not one time event but there is need of doing so several times.
Whereas purification of Ahle bayat is not due to a particular ceremony like chanta. If the perfect purification of Ahle bayat would be equivalent and similar to the purification of ordinary people through chanta and other such ceremonies, then I think there would not be any need to mention specifically ahle bayat in the verse.
Also from historical point of view, you can see that even before revelation Hazrat Muhammad and Hazrat Ali never worshiped any idol.

You have mentioned Quranic verse which speaks about referring to Allah and Rasool, if incase there is some dispute. As we know Prophet is not physically alive today. But Imam is bearer of the noor. Remember first line of Ismaili anthem says "Noor-e-Rasool Allah se bane ho Aga Khan"

Given below are some of the hadiths of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), which will help in understanding this matter. I think you too would have heard about it.

• "Ali is with The Quran and Quran will be with Ali"
• "Ali is with the Right and the Right will be with Ali."
• "I and Ali are of the same Noor [Divine Light]."
• “He who leaves Ali leaves Me and he who leaves Me indeed leaves Allah.”
• “Ali is to Me as My head is to My body.”

In book “Risala darhaqiqat deen” Pir Shahbudin Shah wrote that at Ghadir-e-Khaum, Prophet said “"And these two sacred and pure things I leave amongst you as a security. So long as you cling to these, you will never be lost on your way after me." After declaration of Imamat of Hazrat Ali, following verse of Quran was revealed “This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for You Islam as a religion.”

[/b]

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:11 am

• "Ali is with The Quran and Quran will be with Ali"
• "Ali is with the Right and the Right will be with Ali."
• "I and Ali are of the same Noor [Divine Light]."
• “He who leaves Ali leaves Me and he who leaves Me indeed leaves Allah.”
• “Ali is to Me as My head is to My body.”

Munir,
Great quotes from Hadish, I would like to add few more famous quotes enunciated by Prophet Mohammed (PBU) on Hazarat Ali (s.a.) on various occasion:-
* "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate’"
* "Whoever wishes to see Adam in his knowledge, Nuh/Noah in his piety, Ibrahim/Abraham in his forbearance (patience), Musa/Moses in his strength, and Isa/Jesus in his worship and devotion should look at Ali ibn Abi Talib."
* أناظر علاقة وجه العين عباده
Annazro ela'a wajhe Aliyin ibadah meaning Looking at the face of Ali is Worship.
* "You (Ali) are in the same position with respect to me as Aaron (Harun) was to Moses (Musa) except that there is no prophet after me."
* "Nobody knows Allah except me and Ali. Nobody knows me except Allah and Ali. Nobody knows Ali except Allah and me."
* "Ali is my brother in the world and hereafter."
* In battle of Khyber Prophet said "Tomorrow, I will give the banner to a man who loves Allah and His Prophet (pbuh) and whom Allah and His Prophet (pbuh) love." This man attacks but never flees. He does not come back from a battle, until he achieves victory by Allah's Blessings.

I also like to add one Qasida specially written in the praise of Hazarat Ali (s.a.) by Pir Shams. In my opinion this is a right thread because this Qasida is also a praise of Ali (s.a.).

હક તું પાક તું બાદશાહ,
મહેરબાન બી અલી તુહી તું
Haq tun paak tun baadshaah;
maherbaan bi Ali tunhi tun 1
Translation:-
You are the Just, You are the Sinless,
Oh Ali the Gracious Heavenly King, You are indeed all.

રબ તું રહેમાન તું,
અલી અવ્વલ આખર કાજી તુંહી તું ....2
Rab tun rahemaan tun;
Ali avval aakhar kaaji tunhi tun 2
Translation :-
You are the Sustainer, You are the Merciful,
Oh Ali, You are the First and the Last Judge, You are indeed all.

તે ઉપાયા શાહ તે નીપાયા;
સિરજનહાર બી તુંહી તું ....3
Te upayaa te nipayaa;
sirjannhaar bi tunhi tun 3
Translation:-
You are the one who originated and You are the one who created,
Oh Ali you the Creator, You are indeed all.

જળ થલ મૂળ મંડળ હારના,
અલી હુકમ તેરા બી તુંહી તું ....4
Jal thal mul manddann haarnaa;
Ali hukam teraa bi tunhi tun 4
Translation:-
In the water and on the land, You have laid the roots (foundations, of creation),
Oh Ali everything therein and on is at Your command, You are indeed all.

તેરી દોસ્તી મે બોલ્યા પીર શમ્સ;
મે બંદા તેરા યા અલી તુંહી તું....૫
Teri dosti (me) boliyaa Pir Shams;
me bandaa tera Ali tunhi tun 5 *
Translation:-

In Your frienship says Peer Shamsh: "I am also Your created being",
You are indeed all.

Munir,

"Ali is with the Right and the Right will be with Ali."
What do you define the word 'RIGHT' as quoted above?

* Made some necessary changes in English Texts according Gujarati text., English translation is taken from Ismaili.net ginan section.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:15 pm

Thanks for the appreciation but I am certainly not master. I know little and have learned much from this website and the discussions of the members in the forum.

I agree with the admin, there should not be personal attacks in the forum. Pir Sadardin says in Buj Niranjan to ask your self about where you are and not to become judgmental about the acts of others.

I agree that one way of interpreting noor can be divine guidance
In Ginan we say "ginan bolo re neet noore bhariya" Ginans are filled with noor which probably means guidance. However, as I mentioned earlier the word noor is not limited with the guidance only and can be interpreted in other ways, for which I had given references in my previous post.

As for the perfect purification mentioned in Quran, it is different from the example of Chandraat, which you have given. After having chanta and other such ceremonies, people do again engage in committing sins and therefore again becomes impure. Thats why chanta, dua karawi, saying astaghfar is not one time event but there is need of doing so several times.
Whereas purification of Ahle bayat is not due to a particular ceremony like chanta. If the perfect purification of Ahle bayat would be equivalent and similar to the purification of ordinary people through chanta and other such ceremonies, then I think there would not be any need to mention specifically ahle bayat in the verse.
Also from historical point of view, you can see that even before revelation Hazrat Muhammad and Hazrat Ali never worshiped any idol.

You have mentioned Quranic verse which speaks about referring to Allah and Rasool, if incase there is some dispute. As we know Prophet is not physically alive today. But Imam is bearer of the noor. Remember first line of Ismaili anthem says "Noor-e-Rasool Allah se bane ho Aga Khan"

Given below are some of the hadiths of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), which will help in understanding this matter. I think you too would have heard about it.

• "Ali is with The Quran and Quran will be with Ali"
• "Ali is with the Right and the Right will be with Ali."
• "I and Ali are of the same Noor [Divine Light]."
• “He who leaves Ali leaves Me and he who leaves Me indeed leaves Allah.”
• “Ali is to Me as My head is to My body.”

In book “Risala darhaqiqat deen” Pir Shahbudin Shah wrote that at Ghadir-e-Khaum, Prophet said “"And these two sacred and pure things I leave amongst you as a security. So long as you cling to these, you will never be lost on your way after me." After declaration of Imamat of Hazrat Ali, following verse of Quran was revealed “This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for You Islam as a religion.”

Masha allah !!!...Thank you once again munir bhai for giving us your input ....I really appreciate that !

Brother I totally agree with you that there can be several interpretations of the term "NOOR"...No question about that ...What I did was I just gave my interpretation of the term NOOR

Nur = Guidance (Hidayah)
Nur of Allah = Gudance of Allah[swt] to his creations
Nur of al-Qur'an = Guidance to minds
Nur of Muhammad[saw] = Gudiance to people

A sentence in the main prayer for all Muslims - from the al-Fatiha - reads, "Guide us in the straight path, the path of those whom thou hast blessed, not of those against whom thou art wrathful, nor of those who are astray" (Sura al-Fatiha 1:2,3)

Allah = Noor = Guidance then even we ismailis ask allah[swt] to guide us !!...Is it not ?

The only difference that we have is that for you imam is infallible and for me imams[as] do commit mistakes...thats all !!!

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:29 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:
Thanks for the appreciation but I am certainly not master. I know little and have learned much from this website and the discussions of the members in the forum.

I agree with the admin, there should not be personal attacks in the forum. Pir Sadardin says in Buj Niranjan to ask your self about where you are and not to become judgmental about the acts of others.

I agree that one way of interpreting noor can be divine guidance
In Ginan we say "ginan bolo re neet noore bhariya" Ginans are filled with noor which probably means guidance. However, as I mentioned earlier the word noor is not limited with the guidance only and can be interpreted in other ways, for which I had given references in my previous post.

As for the perfect purification mentioned in Quran, it is different from the example of Chandraat, which you have given. After having chanta and other such ceremonies, people do again engage in committing sins and therefore again becomes impure. Thats why chanta, dua karawi, saying astaghfar is not one time event but there is need of doing so several times.
Whereas purification of Ahle bayat is not due to a particular ceremony like chanta. If the perfect purification of Ahle bayat would be equivalent and similar to the purification of ordinary people through chanta and other such ceremonies, then I think there would not be any need to mention specifically ahle bayat in the verse.
Also from historical point of view, you can see that even before revelation Hazrat Muhammad and Hazrat Ali never worshiped any idol.

You have mentioned Quranic verse which speaks about referring to Allah and Rasool, if incase there is some dispute. As we know Prophet is not physically alive today. But Imam is bearer of the noor. Remember first line of Ismaili anthem says "Noor-e-Rasool Allah se bane ho Aga Khan"

Given below are some of the hadiths of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), which will help in understanding this matter. I think you too would have heard about it.

• "Ali is with The Quran and Quran will be with Ali"
• "Ali is with the Right and the Right will be with Ali."
• "I and Ali are of the same Noor [Divine Light]."
• “He who leaves Ali leaves Me and he who leaves Me indeed leaves Allah.”
• “Ali is to Me as My head is to My body.”

In book “Risala darhaqiqat deen” Pir Shahbudin Shah wrote that at Ghadir-e-Khaum, Prophet said “"And these two sacred and pure things I leave amongst you as a security. So long as you cling to these, you will never be lost on your way after me." After declaration of Imamat of Hazrat Ali, following verse of Quran was revealed “This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for You Islam as a religion.”
Masha allah !!!...Thank you once again munir bhai for giving us your input ....I really appreciate that !

Brother I totally agree with you that there can be several interpretations of the term "NOOR"...No question about that ...What I did was I just gave my interpretation of the term NOOR

Nur = Guidance (Hidayah)
Nur of Allah = Gudance of Allah[swt] to his creations
Nur of al-Qur'an = Guidance to minds
Nur of Muhammad[saw] = Gudiance to people

A sentence in the main prayer for all Muslims - from the al-Fatiha - reads, "Guide us in the straight path, the path of those whom thou hast blessed, not of those against whom thou art wrathful, nor of those who are astray" (Sura al-Fatiha 1:2,3)

Allah = Noor = Guidance then even we ismailis ask allah[swt] to guide us !!...Is it not ?

The only difference that we have is that for you imam is infallible and for me imams[as] do commit mistakes...thats all !!!

@shiraz: when you say the following: Can you pls, answer these two questions?

a) is Imam infallible to you?
b) what are the mistakes? (Keep in mind, we are talking about interpretation of the faith, and no materialistic issues).

shiraz.virani wrote: The only difference that we have is that for you imam is infallible and for me imams[as] do commit mistakes...thats all !!!

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:53 pm

a) is Imam infallible to you?

No, Imams are not infallible

b) what are the mistakes? (Keep in mind, we are talking about interpretation of the faith, and no materialistic issues).

When Im talking about mistakes its more of his day to day life = material life and thats what I think he was talking about in that interview !

He has the noor of allah[swt] right ?? ...So then how can a perfect man make mistakes in his life ?? ...Isnt he suppose to be a role model or something ???

Ill give you few examples but I just wanna know from you that if you think he is infallible then how can someone who never sins nor commits mistakes would indeed commit em and yet people call him infallible ? Can you please justify that for me and then Ill also give you few quranic verses where prophets[as] appointed by allah[swt] commited mistakes and were forgiven

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:27 pm

[
Munir,

"Ali is with the Right and the Right will be with Ali."
What do you define the word 'RIGHT' as quoted above?

.[/quote]

Right = Haq, Truth, Correct

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:12 pm

@ Shiraz

Since Prophets and Imams are in human form in the world they act like human. But that does not mean they are sinful like ordinary human beings. You can see Prophet (PBUH) doing miracles such as of breaking moon in two parts. Yet on the other hands, he lived life like ordinary human.

When Prophets asked prayer for forgiveness, this was to make people learn, how to ask prayers when they make mistakes. It was to show, that human beings do commit mistakes and therefore they should pray for the forgiveness of their sins.This was to make people learn that God is most loving and forgive the sins, when people sincerely asked forgiveness from Him. As you know, Prophets did not only convey the divine message but their acts also provided guidelines for people to follow.

Mowlana Hazir Imam said in seerat conference said "The Holy Prophet's life gives us every fundamental guideline that we require to resolve the problem as successfully as our human minds and intellects can visualize. His example of integrity, loyalty, honesty, generosity, both of means and of time his solicitude for the poor, the weak and the sick, his steadfastness in friendship, his humility in success, his magnanimity in victory, his simplicity, his wisdom in conceiving new solutions for problems which could not be solved by traditional methods, without affecting the fundamental concepts of Islam, surely, all these are foundations which correctly understood and sincerely interpreted, must enable us to conceive what should be a truly modern and dynamic Islamic society in the years ahead."

Some times, there are certain acts of Prophets and Imams, which we can not comprehend. But that does not mean that they were/are wrong.

Hazrat Ali, during his life made claim of infallibility. If you will read first sermon of Hazrat Abu Bakar, when he became caliph, he clearly said to the Muslims to follow him as along as he is acting according to Quran and Sunnah. He clearly said to people to correct him, incase if they find him wrong. This is what he said in the very first sermon after becoming caliph.
On the other hand, Hazrat Ali never said any thing like "incase if I am wrong"...Hazrat Ali said whatever he says is truth and that he is fountain of wisdom and knowledge.
What Hazrat Ali claimed in the battle of Siffin? When Mawviya's army hold copies of Quran asking to stop battle. Hazrat Ali said to continue fighting and even said "I am speaking Quran". At that time also, it was difficult for Muslims in general to understand it. However, Malik Ashtar and some others were ready to act according to what Imam said.
Quran = Word of God = infallible (I hope you agree)
Speaking Quran (Imam) is also infallible

In your previous post, you had mentioned that Quran says if there is any dispute refer to Allah or Prophet. The commands of Allah are there is Quran. Who can better understand Quran than Imam?

Holy Prophet (PBUH) said
“Verily The Holy Quran has been revealed on seven letters of which there is no letter which has not a Manifest and a Latent meaning. And Verily Ali ibne Abi Taleb, with him is the Manifest and the Latent of it.”
“He who leaves Ali leaves Me and he who leaves Me indeed leaves Allah.”
Nasir Khusraw said," I searched in the world for Tawil-e-Mutashabihat [The meaning of allegories of Holy Quran] but I could not find them any where except from Fatimid Caliph (Imam of that time)."

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:46 am

"Ali is with the Right and the Right will be with Ali."
What do you define the word 'RIGHT' as quoted above?

.

Right = Haq, Truth, Correct .[/quote]

Thanks Munir, I was expecting exactly the same answer from you, but I want to make sure, congratulation

MR-FORGET · Post by **MR-FORGET** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:47 pm

To Mr. Everyone,

May our beloved current Imam, Mowlana Shah Karim Hazar Imam (s.a.) live 100 years and his imamat may become longest imamat in history of Ismaili imams and Inshallah we Ismailis may become fortunate to celebrate his Diamond and Platinum Jubillees too, b] but one day he has to go, can any one tell; who will be our next imam after him?
1, Prince Rahim,
2, Prince Hussain
3, Prince Ali Mohammad

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:04 pm

MR-FORGET wrote:May our beloved current Imam, Mowlana Shah Karim Hazar Imam (s.a.) live 100 years and his imamat may become longest imamat in history of Ismaili imams and Inshallah we Ismailis may become fortunate to celebrate his Diamond and Platinum Jubillees too, b] but one day he has to go, can any one tell; who will be our next imam after him?
1, Prince Rahim,
2, Prince Hussain
3, Prince Ali Mohammad

Only the Imam knows who will be his successor.Below is an excerpt of the interview in which MHI discusses succession.

Q. How were you told by your grandfather that you were to be his successor?

A. It was in his will.

Q. You did not know until after his death?

A. Nobody knew.

Q. Have you made the decision on who will be the next Imam?

A. (Laughing) It would be very, very foolish of me not to. Life is no more eternal for me than for anyone else.

Q. So the assumption is that you have a will in which you have named the next Imam?

A. You may make the assumption that I have indicated who the next Imam will be.

Q. You have two sons. One of them will succeed you, the other one will not. Yet, as a father, you obviously want to treat these two sons as equally as possible. What do you do?

A. Well, during my lifetime, I will treat them absolutely identically. They must have the same education, same exposure, same understanding of their father's work. I would not want to make any differentiation between them, any more than my grandfather made a differentiation between my brother and myself.

http://www.ismaili.net/intervue/i831200.html

MR-FORGET · Post by **MR-FORGET** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:17 pm

No, Imams are not infallible

Mr. Virani,

As per all Shia sects including Ishanshari too believes that Imams doesn't make any mistakes because they are 'MASUM'. can you tell why you are not agree with them?

Thanks for not using any inappropriate language towards our Imam evern though you are heavily criticizing.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:23 pm

Brother munir said :

Munir,

"Ali is with the Right and the Right will be with Ali."
What do you define the word 'RIGHT' as quoted above?

.

Right = Haq, Truth, Correct[/quote]

Yes brother nobody is saying that H.Imam Ali[as] is not with truth or against it....The difference that we have is on infallibility.

If somebody is guiding you on true path, it doesnt necessarily mean that the person will not and cannot sin !!

Our rasool[saw] was reproached by allah[swt] for the way he treated a poor blind man, mentioned in holy quran

[80:1-11] He frowned and turned away ... Because the blind man came unto him. What could inform thee but that he might grow (in grace) , Or take heed and so the reminder might avail him? As for him who thinketh himself independent, Unto him thou payest regard. Yet it is not thy concern if he grow not (in grace). But as for him who cometh unto thee with earnest purpose, And hath fear, From him thou art distracted. Nay, but verily it is an Admonishment [warning]

When Rasool[saw] can commit mistakes brother munir, what makes you think imams[as] wont ?

Nahjul Balagha, sermon 78: He (Imam.Ali[as]) said in his dua: “ O Allah forgive me what you know of me, if I go back to it again, forgive me again. O Allah! Forgive me what I kept in my mind, but You did not accomplish for me! O Allah! Forgive me what I said with my tongue in devotion to You, but my heart was inconsistent with it! O Allah forgive me the glimpses of the eyes, errors in speech, the desire of the heart and slippery of the tongue.”