Heaven and Hell

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:15 pm

Shirazbhai,

Elevated souls can communicate with animals. When individuals elevate their souls, they become transformed from having partial intellects to having complete universal intellects. From that perspective they can understand all. The Pirs in our tradition are the bearers of the Noor (Universal Intellect), hence they know all. Below is an anecdote from the life of Rumi.

"Near the market, Rumi began talking to people in the late afternoon one day. A large crowd gathered, but as the sun went down and Jelaluddin kept discoursing, they wandered away. He went on into the night, until finally he was alone with a number of the town's stray dogs, who sat in a circle around him whining and wagging their tails. "You understand what I say,"he announced to his canine audience. "Men have condescended and called you 'dogs,' but from now on, let your species be known as the seven sleepers, because of that blessed group in the Qur'an, which included one of you."

I dont see how he communicated with the animal nor do we see animal responding back @ above.....As i said brother there is no physical relation in this....pir was talking about spirituality which is very clear in that ginan

Similarly once i dunno who this pir was ...but he actually sailed on a boat made of paper !!! paper !!!!!!!.........are you kidding me ???? So does this universal intellect also makes you light and heavy weight accordingly ??

Brother all this stories are just inspirational just to motivate people to do good and be devout to agakhan , thats it !!!

And why did the tiger/lion promised to give only 10% and not 12.5% as per ismailism ??? Did pir gave him some tax exemption ?

Dasond is derived from the word Das which means ten. Dasond (which is the right of the Imam) is one tenth, the 2.5% is for the Pir. We combine the two in our submission.
Brother I know this but the tiger/lion offered only 10% where as ismailis have to pay 12.5% [10 + 2.5].....so if tiger/lion was a believer then he should have paid 12.5% and not 10%......thats all I was saying !!!

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:36 pm

shiraz.virani wrote: I dont see how he communicated with the animal nor do we see animal responding back @ above.....As i said brother there is no physical relation in this....pir was talking about spirituality which is very clear in that ginan

Similarly once i dunno who this pir was ...but he actually sailed on a boat made of paper !!! paper !!!!!!!.........are you kidding me ???? So does this universal intellect also makes you light and heavy weight accordingly ??

Brother all this stories are just inspirational just to motivate people to do good and be devout to agakhan , thats it !!!

You are entitled to your views, but literally anything is possible when one attains spiritual elevation. From an ordinary standpoint, it may seem impossible but from elevation anything is possible.

For more discussion on this subject you may want to go to:

Doctrines --> can humans BE God?

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... god+mansur

shiraz.virani wrote: Brother I know this but the tiger/lion offered only 10% where as ismailis have to pay 12.5% [10 + 2.5].....so if tiger/lion was a believer then he should have paid 12.5% and not 10%......thats all I was saying !!!

May be the Pir exempted them from his share!

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:40 pm

Also there has been discussion under:

Doctrines --> Defy physics?

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ysics+laws

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:17 am

S.V. bro,

Don't forget that pir Shams had (let me make it clear here 'NOORANI") power and yes he made a boat from paper and he sailed in it, even more pir Shams gave a new life to the son of king, he also gave eye lights to one of his follower 'CHANDRABHAN" he was totally blind, bro, he made many miracles which are hard to digest now a days for instant example; Pir shams called sun to come on earth to cook his meat, would you beleive this??!! would scientist beleive this? I bet you nope because it is unbelievable for them and for many but there are some who beleive this is true.

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 You are entitled to your views, but literally anything is possible when one attains spiritual elevation. From an ordinary standpoint, it may seem impossible but from elevation anything is possible.

Please read above sentence of Karim he explained very nicely in only one sentence.[/b]

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:11 am

agakhani wrote:Don't forget that pir Shams had (let me make it clear here 'NOORANI") power and yes he made a boat from paper and he sailed in it, even more pir Shams gave a new life to the son of king, he also gave eye lights to one of his follower 'CHANDRABHAN" he was totally blind, bro, he made many miracles which are hard to digest now a days for instant example; Pir shams called sun to come on earth to cook his meat, would you beleive this??!! would scientist beleive this? I bet you nope because it is unbelievable for them and for many but there are some who beleive this is true.

More on Pir Shams' life given at:
Pre-fatimid --> Pir Shams - Voyage - Multan - Translation

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:32 pm

S.V. bro,

Don't forget that pir Shams had (let me make it clear here 'NOORANI") power and yes he made a boat from paper and he sailed in it, even more pir Shams gave a new life to the son of king, he also gave eye lights to one of his follower 'CHANDRABHAN" he was totally blind, bro, he made many miracles which are hard to digest now a days for instant example; Pir shams called sun to come on earth to cook his meat, would you beleive this??!! would scientist beleive this? I bet you nope because it is unbelievable for them and for many but there are some who beleive this is true.

Are mere bhai just think about it !!! ....Just think for one second !!!! .....The heat wave that sun generates sometimes penetrates into our atmosphere [even though we have electro magnetic field]....That results in major climate change, Drought, Tsunamis and what not !....Just think about it...PIR REQUESTING THE SUN TO COME ON EARTH ??? When one single radiation can turn our earth upside down just imagine what the sun would cause the earth once it closes in on it !!

Islam is based on intellect brother agakhani....the same intellect that makes us human ponder upon things and help us to go in much detail...and regarding miracles the agakhan himself has rubbed this issue looong time back where in one of his interview he said the holy prophet himself never claimed to have performed any miracles in his life !!!!

this is what i think that the pir was trying to make us understand :

Boat - Source of elevation
Pir - source
Water/Sea - Hurdles that human being face in day to day life
Land - Destination
Blind man - Unbeliever
Sun[fire] - Punishment
Peeling of Skin - Test
Asking for forgiveness - Enlightment

Remember in the same ginan pir mentions how people started getting stressed/frustrated/scared as the sun came down .....ie , the punishment or the heat was unbearable

Cant you understand simple logic in this ginan brother ??? If you take everything in physical sense [edited] ???

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:58 am

Shiraz,
The logic you explained is very true, I cannot argue with that, if sun comes on earth then nobody can survive, even pir cannot survive if we think the way of science rules and as per the explanation you just wrote above.
And honestly, the symbolic explanations you give on various things like boat, water, blind e.t.c. seems fair to me, but believe in miracles of pir Shams, any prophets or any Imams are totally depend on any individual's own choice and faith, everyone has their own choice and faith whether to accept it or not.

By the way, I need your explanations on following miracles, I took it from few different religions:-

1. You may heard that prophet Isa (a.s.) used to give new lives to dead person and eye sights to blind peoples!!! If he can do that then why not the pir Shams??!!!
2. Prophet Moses’ (s.a.) stick was turned python when he threw it on ground and that python eat all the magicians’ snakes!!!
3. Prophet Moses and his followers (Bani Israel) could walk through the river easily but the Pharaoh and his army drowned in same river!!!
4. Lord Ram can build a bridge (SETUBANDH) to go Sri Lanka over the sea??!! And can killed Ravan!!
5. Prophet Ibrahim wife Sara can give birth to Isaac at her old age(90), when science was not so advance as it is today!!
6. Lord Krishna can go in river YAMUNA and can kill big poisonous serpent (KALI NAG)!!
7. Brahma can born from the naval of Lord Vishnu!!
8, Hazarat Ali (a.s.) can torned down the big gate of Khyber fort and used that gate to pass Muslim army with only one arm??!!
and so on, I can write as many as you want but I think these are enough I need your honest explanation on above things.
My logic, thinking and faith is this bro, If you or any body else can believe and accept that above miracles were already happened then why you or anybody else can not believe that sun couldn't come on earth??!! or Pir Shams couldn't give new life of son of king or new eye sight to his follower?
THAT IS IT!
In my opinion these kind miracles already happened and wait a minute the miracles are still happening, only thing you have to have your smart eyes and faith on your own religion bro.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:11 pm

1. You may heard that prophet Isa (a.s.) used to give new lives to dead person and eye sights to blind peoples!!! If he can do that then why not the pir Shams??!!!
2. Prophet Moses’ (s.a.) stick was turned python when he threw it on ground and that python eat all the magicians’ snakes!!!
3. Prophet Moses and his followers (Bani Israel) could walk through the river easily but the Pharaoh and his army drowned in same river!!!
4. Lord Ram can build a bridge (SETUBANDH) to go Sri Lanka over the sea??!! And can killed Ravan!!
5. Prophet Ibrahim wife Sara can give birth to Isaac at her old age(90), when science was not so advance as it is today!!
6. Lord Krishna can go in river YAMUNA and can kill big poisonous serpent (KALI NAG)!!
7. Brahma can born from the naval of Lord Vishnu!!
8, Hazarat Ali (a.s.) can torned down the big gate of Khyber fort and used that gate to pass Muslim army with only one arm??!!
and so on, I can write as many as you want but I think these are enough I need your honest explanation on above things.
My logic, thinking and faith is this bro, If you or any body else can believe and accept that above miracles were already happened then why you or anybody else can not believe that sun couldn't come on earth??!! or Pir Shams couldn't give new life of son of king or new eye sight to his follower?
THAT IS IT!

Boy oh boy !!!!! ............Yes all the miracles related to prophets[as] are 100% true....but as usual since you have blind faith lemme make you understand the biggest difference between prophets and pirs

1] Prophet is a miraj/mercy for the whooooooooooole mankind where as pirs job is limited to ismailism or spreading ismailism

2] Prophet is the one who is entrusted with the message or scripture where as pir's job is to teach what has already been revealed

3] All the prophets[as] were the prophets of islam where as all the pirs were the pirs of one small branch i.e ismailism

4] Prophet is the one who is directly/indirectly in contact with allah[swt] = THE SUPREME where as pir is the one who is directly/indirectly in contact with imam[as]= GUIDE/ REPRESENTATIVE OF ALLAH

Well you're free to believe in whatever you want but this is solely my take on ismailism and islam.

I personally believe in all the miracles @ above because its the word of lord i.e creator and not CREATED

In my opinion these kind miracles already happened and wait a minute the miracles are still happening, only thing you have to have your smart eyes and faith on your own religion bro.

Yes they do happen but the only difference is majority of the miracle stories in ismailism is nothing more than inspirational one.....No imam/pir can give life to death nor any imam/pir can live a life of immortal man forever..........this is the biggest proof of all !!!

Post by **Admin** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:08 pm

To say that Pir is only for Ismailis is the same as people saying the Imam is only for Ismailis. Or people saying Allah is only for Muslims. Just another mistaken understanding of what the Imam is and what Pir is.....

Imams and Pirs are not magicians, they do not need to prove themselves. Miracles are only for those who can see them and many can and many can not.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:24 pm

To say that Pir is only for Ismailis is the same as people saying the Imam is only for Ismailis. Or people saying Allah is only for Muslims. Just another mistaken understanding of what the Imam is and what Pir is.....

Imams and Pirs are not magicians, they do not need to prove themselves. Miracles are only for those who can see them and many can and many can not.

Brother Admin, can you then please explain us what is baiyyat and why is it important in ismailism ??

Plus, I never said imams/pirs were magicians, it was brother agakhani who treat them like one and this is what i was trying to make him understand.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:18 am

In my thinking pirs always appointed from prophet Mohammad's family (AALE RASOOL) nobody can become a pir if he/she is not from prophet Mohd's and Hazar Ali's (AULADE ALI) family.
As per the history of Ismaili pirs prophet Mohammad was 1st Ismaili pir, second pir was Hazarat Hasan (a.s.) and current imam Shah Karim is 50th pirs that means all pirs should have same noorani power which noorani power prophet Mohammad had, now if any prophets can do the magic then why not the pirs? they also have same power.

In ismailism pirs and prophet are same and they have same noorni power so if any prophet can make magic then pirs also can do it. (call sun on eath) As per Ismaili akida Imam has Allah's noor and same Allah's noor also has pirs.

Unfortunately some Ismailis are not understand the importance roll of pirs and they compare pirs with other not appointed pir like pir Nashir Khushru, In my opinion there are big difference between appointed (PUTHIA NA PIRS) and not appointed pirs, that is why we recite salwat whenever the name of appointed pirs call in JK, we should not recite salwat for not appointed pir like Syed Imamshah, Nasir khushru e.t.c.

The magic topics was popes up when you argue that pir can not do the magic (call sun on earth) and therefore I explained it in detail giving the example of other prophets.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:03 am

In my thinking pirs always appointed from prophet Mohammad's family (AALE RASOOL) nobody can become a pir if he/she is not from prophet Mohd's and Hazar Ali's (AULADE ALI) family.

Yes, here you said it !!! ....Pirs are appointed by the family of rasool[saw] to spread faith [that is already been revealed]....Yes they are appointed by the imams and not ALLAH ....clear ??

As per the history of Ismaili pirs prophet Mohammad was 1st Ismaili pir, second pir was Hazarat Hasan (a.s.) and current imam Shah Karim is 50th pirs that means all pirs should have same noorani power which noorani power prophet Mohammad had, now if any prophets can do the magic then why not the pirs? they also have same power.

Lets talk about crucifixion of H.Isa [as] brother....since you talk so much about magic , lol.......so was H.Isa[as] as per you died on the cross ?

....If yes then kindly give us the details from the quran and if NO, do the same from quran.....I'll give you a hint , it was made to appear as if he died

MAGIC OR ILLUSION ????

For your kind information, H.Rasool[saw] was the only prophet in the history of prophets[as] who converted more people to islam without any powers as such

In ismailism pirs and prophet are same and they have same noorni power so if any prophet can make magic then pirs also can do it. (call sun on eath) As per Ismaili akida Imam has Allah's noor and same Allah's noor also has pirs.

Exactly !!! you said it again and i quote

In ISMAILISM

not Islam ....theres a huge difference there....but anyways believe what you wanna believe

Unfortunately some Ismailis are not understand the importance roll of pirs and they compare pirs with other not appointed pir like pir Nashir Khushru, In my opinion there are big difference between appointed (PUTHIA NA PIRS) and not appointed pirs, that is why we recite salwat whenever the name of appointed pirs call in JK, we should not recite salwat for not appointed pir like Syed Imamshah, Nasir khushru e.t.c.

Well again brother, its their personal choice.....You can teach them but cant force them

The magic topics was popes up when you argue that pir can not do the magic (call sun on earth) and therefore I explained it in detail giving the example of other prophets.

Well I sure appreciate that and Im looking forward to learn much more from you bhai !

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:32 pm

I know you have deep study of Quran and other religions holy books because you quot Quranic ayats many times in your posts, but before we talking about Ismailism, I personally believe that first you still need to study more on Ismailism.

Holy Quran is not sufficient (it may be sufficient for Hazarat Omar, Hazarat Abu Bakar or Hazarat Usman) to understand Islam and Ismailism, to understand Ismailism better we all needs deep study of ginans, farmans and Hadith too along with Quran.

With my little knowledge and brief study of Quran, hadiths, and shia and Ismaili literature, I come to this point that Quran is not in its original script nor Quran is complete brother, (may be I am wrong but this is my personal understanding) I wrote this facts many times in this forum, why??!! because Quran has been changed many times (I know that Sunnat-al jamat and many scholars will not accept this truth but truth is truth, you can not change it by denning it), let me give you short history of these chages, the first change in Quran came right after the death of prophet Mohammad (PUH) and second and on going changes there after just started to come during the time of Khilafat-e-Bani Umaya, they hired big Ulemas to make change in Quran and Hadiths, Yazid (LANATULLAH) paid big money to these Ulemas, why they want to change in Quran and Hadith? because they were hating Ahle bait, they wanted to destruct the Islam and they also wanted to put down Hazarat Ali (a.s.) because Hazarat Ali was big competitor for their caliphat, these Ulemas added, omitted changed, and added or deleted many ayats and hadiths which were directly related to Hazarat Ali (s.a.) if you read history books specially written by Shia sources then you will definitely find these facts and many other facts what Yazid (lanat) and Umaiya calips did after him to the Ahle bait family.

With big respect to you, I do not have any thing against you, I respect your point of view and I read your all posts with keen interest (I am the only one person who was backing for you, not to ban your membership, you may still remember this) but be honest with you bro shiraz, you still need deep study in Ismailism, if you fell bad about my this two cents worth of advise then please forgive me.
Allah Hafiz right now.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:23 pm

Ismailism does not depend on reading books, it depend on the love of the Murid for his Imam. That is the foundation stone.

Knowledge of Ismailism depends on reading first and foremost the Farmans, that is the place where Ismailism is defined.

Allah and Imam can only be defined properly based on knowledge coming from the Farmans. This is the path for us. This is the only path for us.

Imam said it is the responsibility of the Imam of the Time to protect Farmans and Ginans. There should be a serious reason he said that.

Other religion also set their own path to the truth and they may well reach it one day but we have been shown the short cut...

I know some people like to climb stairs, they feel it build their muscles, good for them! But me, I am quite fat and heavy, I get tired fast so I like to take the lift especially when there are too many floors to climb and too little time for it.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:03 pm

Ismailism does not depend on reading books, it depend on the love of the Murid for his Imam. That is the foundation stone.

True admin bhai !!.....but sometimes people idolise imam which is again a sin as mentioned by 48th imam....loving someone and worshipping someone are two completely different subjects

Knowledge of Ismailism depends on reading first and foremost the Farmans, that is the place where Ismailism is defined.

Admin bhai which firmans are you talking about ??? The ones that are edited by ITREB ?? I dont even have to go in much detail we all know recently Dr.Shafik testified in court that H.Imam thinks in french and speaks in english...lol....thus sometimes there are mistakes or in other words editing is compulsory......admin bhai can the edited firman of agakhan be treated as firman ???

Allah and Imam can only be defined properly based on knowledge coming from the Farmans. This is the path for us. This is the only path for us.

True again !!!

Imam said it is the responsibility of the Imam of the Time to protect Farmans and Ginans. There should be a serious reason he said that.

There might be various known reasons behind this but lets just not get into much detail

Other religion also set their own path to the truth and they may well reach it one day but we have been shown the short cut...

Yup....different people have different take on this

I know some people like to climb stairs, they feel it build their muscles, good for them! But me, I am quite fat and heavy, I get tired fast so I like to take the lift especially when there are too many floors to climb and too little time for it.

hehehe.....but admin bhai If you're a fatty then i would suggest you to take the stairs... as climbing stairs is not limited to building muscles....it is the easiest and the most convinient way to burn calories [IMPURITIES] , lose weight [EGO] and obtain results [SIRATAL MUSTAKIM] , whereas Lift is of no use if there's a power outage , hehehehe

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:49 am

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Ismailism does not depend on reading books, it depend on the love of the Murid for his Imam. That is the foundation stone.

Admin bro,

We were debating about better understanding Ismailism not about love towards Imam and therefore I worte that without studying or reading Ismaili literature you can not understand Ismaili religion properly, we should read Farmans, Ginans and Qurans and Hadith for that.

By the way, you are right "love for Imam" play big roll in ismailism, love is important not only in Ismailism but it is important in any religion; love play a big roll in any religion that is why we go JK, Muslim goes in Mosque, Christians goes in Church and Hindu goes in temple, I goes in JK and pray there because I have love towards my Imam and of course love towards Almighty Allah.
In my opinion only love is not enough to understand Ismailism as you mentioned in your post above, of course love towards Imam is foundation in Ismailism but you can not have deep knowledge in Ismailism only if you have only love towards Imam you need to read and study your religion first and then after you need read and study other religion's literature as well, let me give you my example whatever knowledge I have? ( I never claim my self as a big scholar nor I claim that I know everything in Ismailism and other religions) I received it reading Ismaili and other religions literature and I am still reading, but right now I can debate with anybody if he/she challenge me about my religion. Why I can debate with them? because I received knowledge reading Ismailsm deeply.
In opposite way let me give you example of one of my friend, he goes JK everyday (evening and in morning) since his childhood, he is volunteer almost all his life, he has tons of love towards our Imam he can do any thing for Imam, but if you ask him a simple question about our religion he do not have answer for that because he never study Ismailism properly, so only love is not enough, if you really want to study Ismailism you need have to have knowledge of Ismailism and that me and Shiraz were debating , bro Admin.[/b]

I had same love towards Imam whatever love I have right now when I didn't know much about Ismailism and other religions, but be honest with you only love towards Imam and Allah that time didn't do any good to me to better understand Ismaili religion, so I had to spend many years in study Ismailism and other religions, so obviously and simply only love towards Imam didn't work in my case to better understand Ismailism.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:18 am

Admin wrote:To say that Pir is only for Ismailis is the same as people saying the Imam is only for Ismailis. Or people saying Allah is only for Muslims. Just another mistaken understanding of what the Imam is and what Pir is.....

Absolutely! The Pir prays for the salvation of others as well. Below is an excerpt from The Memoirs (page 18).

"And I further pray that all who truly and sincerely believe in God, be they Christian, Jew, Buddhist, or Brahmin, who strive to do good and avoid evil, who are gentle and kind, will be joined in Heaven and be granted final pardon and peace."

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:38 pm

"And I further pray that all who truly and sincerely believe in God, be they Christian, Jew, Buddhist, or Brahmin, who strive to do good and avoid evil, who are gentle and kind, will be joined in Heaven and be granted final pardon and peace."

Then whats the use of having Imam's and Pir's ?? ....If those who are not ismaili can go to heaven then whats the use of having a sub sect that promises heaven to those who follow the imam of the time ??

On one hand sultan mohd shah said " heaven and hell is in my hands" and made a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig U turn in his memoirs where he said @ above ...I mean first decide what you wanna say mate !

Heaven n hell is in your hands or not ?? ...If yes then why make people of the book do what they are doing when you know its wrong.....and if No then why say heaven and hell is in my hands ??

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:11 pm

shiraz.virani wrote: Then whats the use of having Imam's and Pir's ?? ....If those who are not ismaili can go to heaven then whats the use of having a sub sect that promises heaven to those who follow the imam of the time ??

Having a guide simplifies the path. He provides guidance which is current and creates an environment for purification and spiritual progress.

shiraz.virani wrote: On one hand sultan mohd shah said " heaven and hell is in my hands" and made a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig U turn in his memoirs where he said @ above ...I mean first decide what you wanna say mate !

Heaven n hell is in your hands or not ?? ...If yes then why make people of the book do what they are doing when you know its wrong.....and if No then why say heaven and hell is in my hands ??

The Imam speaks according to the audience. The Memoirs is directed to non-Ismailis and Ismailis whereas his Farmans are directed to his murids. To his murids he is the one interceding on their behalf and who have recognized him in that role. For his murids Heaven and Hell he holds the keys to the Heaven and Hell.

For those who have not recognized him, he prays for them. There is nothing wrong in recognizing the truth in other faiths. So long as the others are sincere in their belief in God and are ethical, then they are not wrong.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:30 am

First of all, we have to decide whether heaven or hell exist or not? before we go in deep and that is what this post is all about.

The Imam speaks according to the audience. The Memoirs is directed to non-Ismailis and Ismailis whereas his Farmans are directed to his murids. To his murids he is the one interceding on their behalf and who have recognized him in that role

That is true KM, you can not compare the book "Memoirs of Agakahn" with farmans of Sultan Mohammad shah for his Murids cuz anybody can read the book but farmans is strictly for his murids.
The farmans or irshad of Sultana Mohamad shah and current MHI are some time different for their murids and for non-Ismaili audience and with political leaders.
In my opinion, here is another reason for this kind differences in farmans or irshahd, if you look the time of Imamat of Sultan Mohd Shah (72 years) a very long periods of imamat, so it is possible that his earlier farmans might be changed latter years of his imamat according the necessity of jamat, condition and circumstances of jamats and might be political changes. Remember this, farmans of any Imam always changes depends on circumstances, on jamat's benefits and safety, on time, on necessity and on political condition, so we should not make it a big issue.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:02 pm

The Imam speaks according to the audience. The Memoirs is directed to non-Ismailis and Ismailis whereas his Farmans are directed to his murids. To his murids he is the one interceding on their behalf and who have recognized him in that role. For his murids Heaven and Hell he holds the keys to the Heaven and Hell.

For those who have not recognized him, he prays for them. There is nothing wrong in recognizing the truth in other faiths. So long as the others are sincere in their belief in God and are ethical, then they are not wrong.

Tell me this brother maherali , how is the imam recognised ?? By owning a million dollar yacht ?? Or by spreading faith and openly telling the world that yes Im the proof of allah right from the line of h.adam[as] ??

Tell me this did rasool[saw] ever in his life said he is NOT a prophet of christians/ jews ?? Rasool[saw] was a mercy for the whole humankind....So if a jew approached our rasool[saw] did he gave him info about islam in detail or just said oh you know be united , work together and so on and so forth.......Ofcourse he spread the faith of allah[swt] !!...So did Imam ali[as] who was treated with his respect ......when all the imams spread the faith of god....how come of all of sudden the 48th imam woke up one morning and decided ok lets not talk about our religion in detail when others are sitting !!

Do you understand my point ?? If the imam is the same imam appointed by allah[swt]...why would he make circles and act differently in front of ismaili and non ismaili ?? If your job is to guide, wouldnt you try to convince other faith the you are the mercy of god and make them come back on the right path ??

If rasool[saw] did the samething in the past do you expect to see over 1 billions devout muslims that are living today ....Islam is the fastest growing religion in the whole world....Had our rasool[saw] had this dual standard like our imam does islam wouldnt have survived in 1st place !!!

All the imams from 1st till 47th tried to spread islam and their esoteric teaching ...its just from this 48th imam do we see huuuuuuuuuuuuge differences and I wonder why ???

MR-FORGET · Post by **MR-FORGET** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:12 pm

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 so we should not make it a big issue.

Brother Agakhani, who make big issue? this is free forum anybody can write his/her point in this site, it is not necessary that you need to bleive it!
But yaar, one thing I agree with you, controvercy about the heaven and hellm, does it exist or not is still a big question, this question has not been solved yet and I don't think it will solved ever.

I PERSONALLY BELEIVE THAT THERE ARE NO GEOGRAPHICAL PLACES FOR HEAVEN AND HELL, HEAVEN AND HELL ARE HERE ON THIS EARTH.

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"And I further pray that all who truly and sincerely believe in God, be they Christian, Jew, Buddhist, or Brahmin, who strive to do good and avoid evil, who are gentle and kind, will be joined in Heaven and be granted final pardon and peace."

I don't understand how anybody can joine in Heaven and granted final pardon and peace where there are no geographical places any where in this univers???!!! does above quote make any scense?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:57 pm

shiraz.virani wrote: Tell me this brother maherali , how is the imam recognised ?? By owning a million dollar yacht ?? Or by spreading faith and openly telling the world that yes Im the proof of allah right from the line of h.adam[as] ??

The Imam is recognized by those who have the capacity. Of course his mode of expression will vary according to times. The Imam's role is to engage in the material activities as well as per excerpt below from his speech.

"Perhaps all of these incongruities will seen less puzzling if I point out
that, in the Islamic tradition, there is no sharp separation of the
spiritual and material worlds - which is so pronounced in some faiths. For
all Muslims, the concepts of Din and Dunya, Faith and World, are
inextricably linked. So it is not such a surprising or incongruous thing for
a Muslim leader also to be involved in the world of business, the world of
sport, the world of science - or the world of publishing ."(South Africa, 1996)

He has publicly claimed that he is the direct descendant of the Prophet and his role is to interpret faith. He always talks about either faith, ethics and values whenever opportunity presents. Just read his speeches. But if you expect him to have a beard and a turban, it won't be that way!

shiraz.virani wrote: Do you understand my point ?? If the imam is the same imam appointed by allah[swt]...why would he make circles and act differently in front of ismaili and non ismaili ?? If your job is to guide, wouldnt you try to convince other faith the you are the mercy of god and make them come back on the right path ??

All the imams from 1st till 47th tried to spread islam and their esoteric teaching ...its just from this 48th imam do we see huuuuuuuuuuuuge differences and I wonder why ???

The Imam talks to people according to their capacity. The Imam cannot talk about Islam in the same manner to a person who never heard of Imam before compared to the one who recognizes him. The methods of spreading Islam change according to times. Today we have the Institute of Ismaili Stuidies which spreads the message through educational programmes, lectures and publications.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:12 pm

MR-FORGET wrote: I don't understand how anybody can joine in Heaven and granted final pardon and peace where there are no geographical places any where in this univers???!!! does above quote make any scense?

Yes there is no geographical space for heaven. Heaven and Hell are the state of your soul. If it is in peace, then it is in heaven.

Also you have to keep in mind that creation is not confined to the physical universe as we know it. There are higher astral planes of existence as well.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:05 pm

I was surprise by one Farman where Hazar Imam talks of Allah's creation. One would expect him to say Allah creates what he wishes when he wishes "in space and time" but what Imam used the word "in dimensions" which opens the door to multiple dimensions creation.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:19 pm

I was surprise by one Farman where Hazar Imam talks of Allah's creation. One would expect him to say Allah creates what he wishes when he wishes "in space and time" but what Imam used the word "in dimensions" which opens the door to multiple dimensions creation.

Interesting !!!! ...... everything is dimensional except space....it keeps on expanding and god knows how vast is the creation of allah[swt]

And I totally agree with admin because yesterday I was watching a documentary where scientists think that just like galaxies, even the space keeps on multiplying .......yes not the planets,galaxies but THE SPACE...Is this what our imam meant to say ?

Bloglaw · Post by **Bloglaw** » Sun May 01, 2011 3:27 am

Allah's creation is beyond time and space. Nothing is impossible, and so everything is possible. Allah is beyond creation and at the same time a part of creation and closer to each of us than our jugular vein.

Jayv · Post by **Jayv** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:51 am

I think hell is basically lust for the world and ignorance towards the truth. If we die, then it's just the state of being in a stationary spiritual state. We have been sent on Earth to either raise ourselves spiritually, and attain jannah in this life (inshallah) and the next, or throw it all away if we fall in love with the world.

There's no physical devil or fires etc... That is all associated with the created world and even those thoughts are transient.

Just my take.

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:15 pm

Faith is Purified by Light

"Regarding faith there is a Hadith:

"Faith is recognition by the heart, affirmation by the tongue and action with the limbs". From the above mentioned Hadith, it is clear that without recognition, it is impossible for faith to become perfect and complete, and recognition is directly related to light (of the Holy Imam in our foreheads), in whose illumination are seen and recognized faith and all its accessories.

Therefore, the Wise Qur'an has commanded us to believe in God, the Prophet and the Light: "So believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Light which We have revealed" (64:8)." [Source: Rubies Pearls, p. 12]

In the next several months, we have a grand opportunity to go beyond the material and experience the real essence of our Holy Imam.

The path has been set, the journey has already began, the horizon is promising, and the reward is eternal existence!

I would not bother with the petro dollar ants hovering around the Momineen trying to spread their poison...

Every shepherd is responsible for his own flock, to begin with...every self disclosure is made at its own time and Allah guies unto HIS LIGHT whomsoever HE Wills....people go to the Kaaba.....they face the Kaaba....the Kaaba does NOT go to them !....Kindly read the final parting words of the prophet with Ali (as)....

Taking Initiation (Bay'ah) bayah

It is absolutely Islamic !

The seeker must follow a perfect Master able to guide him to the way of Allah, Almighty and Exalted, and to illuminate for him that way until he reaches the State of Annihilation.

The seeker must give his oath and his promise to his guide, to learn from him how to leave his bad manners and to lift himself to better conduct in order to reach the Perfect Knowledge of Spirituality.

The meaning of initiation and its conditions have been mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, in the Sunnah of the Prophet and in the life of the Sahabas.

1. In verse 10 of Surat al-Fath, "Verily those who swear allegiance to thee indeed swear allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. So whoever breaks his oath, breaks it to his own loss; and whoever fulfills the covenant that he has made with Allah, He will surely give him a great reward." [48:10]

2. In verse 91 of Surat an-Nahl, "And fulfill the Covenant of Allah when you have made it; and break not your oaths after making them firm, while you have made Allah your surety. Certainly, Allah knows what you do." [16:91]

3. In verse 34 of Surat al-Isra', "and fulfill the covenant, for the covenant shall be questioned about." [17:34]

We see the Qur'an encouraging the people to give their oath and to keep their oath to the Prophet (s), who leads them to the presence of Allah, Almighty and Exalted. That initiation was done in the time of the Prophet (s) and after the time of the Prophet (s).

According to the Sunnah of the Prophet (s), the oath was taken from men, as a group, or as individuals; from women, as a group or as individuals, and even from children.

Bukhari and Muslim narrate that cUbada ibn as-Samit said,

"The Prophet (s) said, 'Give me your pledge and oath not to associate anything with Allah, not to steal, not to commit adultery, not to kill your children, not to backbite, not to fall into sin; and who keeps his promise, then his reward is from Allah, Almighty and Exalted.' And then we gave our pledge to the Prophet (s) and our oath."

The Prophet (s) used to give initiation (bay'ah) to all people and urged them to take it.

Thus we see that it is an important factor in every Sufi Order for one to take bayah with the shaikh, in order to sanctify oneself and to be lifted up to the Divine Presence.

These guides are the revivers in every century, to connect our hearts with the heart of the Prophet (s), who in his turn connects our heart to the Divine Presence.

These guides are the beacon of the light of the Prophet (s) and the light of the Divine Presence and they are the true examples for all nations to follow.

The pledge of allegiance "Bayah" allows people to demonstrate their acceptance of the divine appointment and authority of the Imam and thus testifying that the Imam is the envoy or Hujjat (proof) of God on this earth...

A famous example of the Bay'ah was prophet's journey to Aqaba where 12 people from Yathrib pledged their allegiance to Islam in what is commonly known as the pledge of Al-Aqaba..another example during the life of the Holy Prophet (saw) is recorded by Jarir..

"I have given a pledge of allegiance to Allah's apostle to testify that NONE has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhamad is HIS apostle...to offer prayers...to pay Zakat....to listen to and obey (Allah and HIS Prophet) and to give advice to every muslim..."

The pledge that we thus give to Prophet and his ITRAT (The Rightful Imams) is a contract to render obedience...it is as if the person made a contract with his Imam to the effect that he or she surrenders supervision of his or her affairs to the Imam and that they will NOT contest his authority in any of those affairs and that people who give bayah will obey the Imam by executing the duties whether agreeable to us or not...

Bayah means to sell yourselves and so the person eschews everything and that is why Allah(swt) calls such people as "Abd' (one who worships) and so whatever feelings a person has they have to follow the Imam and follow what he says...for the Imam accepts them as the Olil Amr of his time and age...as also representing the prophet (saw) and in the name of Allah (swt)..thus the need to RECOGNIZE the IMAM e ZAMANA first and foremost as being the Olil Amr, is an OBLIGATION !...without this or giving the bayah, it is outragious to say why the Imam is NOT reaching out to all and sundry....Allah's protocol has been clearly established....the obligation is that of the people...

The person enters into a Covenant with God...and this covenant should NOT be broken !

Mawlana Imam Shah Mustansir bi'llÀh (may his wisdom
he exalted!) uttered with his blessed mouth...

"...The (real) believer (mu'min) is one who from the (observance of the rules of) shari'at arrives at (the following of the rules of) Tariqat, and from the latter to haqqiqat, which is the real inner meaning (batin) of shari'at.

Shar'iat may be compared to a candle, tariqat to the path, and
Haqiqat to the destination (manzil). One must strive to walk along the correct path, lit by the candle, and reach the abode ( Khana) of Haqiqat. The foundation of Haqiqat is to recognize the Imam. .

The purpose (maqsud) of everything is its inner meaning (batin), which forms its (real) substance (jawhar), its essence and sweetness. Therefore the ultimate purpose of shar'iat (introduced) by the Prophet was its inner meaning (batin), which was Haqiqat, i.e. the recognition of the Imam of the time and age...."

Light upon Light

The expression "light upon light' (Holy Qur'an 24:35) has great secrets:

"Light upon light, that is, after one light there is another light. By this light are meant the Prophets and Imams, who in their respective times are mazahir

Write number one on the tablet of your imagination, then repeat exactly the same shape on it, a thousand times. Where is the number thousand in the imagination? There is nothing except the number one.

This is the unity of light upon light.

There are four levels of light: light of Divinity (24:35), light of Prophethood (33:46), light of Imamat (57:28) and light of mu'mins..... [Source: Sublime Realities, p. 55]

Simultaneous Recognition of the Holy Imam

"God has praised the Imam in four places: Lâhut (World of Divinity or Oneness), Jabarut (World of Light or Intellect), Malakut (World of Angels or Souls) and Nâsut (World of human beings)" [Source: Subtle Realities, p. 5].

"NOR does he say (aught) of his own desire...it is no less than INSPIRATION sent down to him..." (53:3,4)

Sura Kawthar is the Ink well of Knowledge...knowledge for the Qalam (Pen) to quench it's thirst !!!!

068.001
YUSUFALI: Nun. By the Pen and the (Record) which (men) write,-
PICKTHAL: Nun. By the pen and that which they write (therewith),
SHAKIR: Noon. I swear by the pen and what the angels write

The Ink and the Pen are attributed to Naboowat and Imamat !

Collectively the Ink and the Pen is Knowledge ! There is a ahadith which says...

"I am the city of Knowledge and Ali is the gate.."

In Sura 91 the word SUN and the MOON is a metaphor ! It relates to the Nur E Naboowat and the Nur e Imamah....lets review the ayats below...

091.001
SHAKIR: I swear by the sun and its brilliance (would you swear by the Sun?)

091.002

SHAKIR: And the moon when it follows the sun ( or the moon?)

In the Muslim Shahada whose name is taken? and in the Sh'ia Shada additionally whose name is taken?

091.003
PICKTHAL: And the day when it revealeth him,

091.004
YUSUFALI: By the Night as it conceals it;
PICKTHAL: And the night when it enshroudeth him,
SHAKIR: And the night when it draws a veil over it

( Again a parable and a metaphor....reveals and shrouds (veils) the Nooran Mubeen !)

( The divine beauty is not exterior but extrinsic to their human forms and the majesty of the divine verb shines thro' their perfect humanity....

091.005
SHAKIR: And the heaven and Him Who made it,

091.006
SHAKIR: And the earth and Him Who extended it,

091.007
YUSUFALI: By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
PICKTHAL: And a soul and Him Who perfected it
SHAKIR: And the soul and Him Who made it perfect

(The literal Sun/Moon has no Intellect or soul nor perfection !)

091.008
YUSUFALI: And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
PICKTHAL: And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it.

(Nor does the literal sun/moon have any conscience or intellect to understand right or wrong...) (they have just been ordered into its place !)

091.009
YUSUFALI: Truly he succeeds that purifies it,

(Explain how one can purify the literal sun/moon)

091.010
YUSUFALI: And he fails that corrupts it!
PICKTHAL: And he is indeed a failure who stunteth it.
SHAKIR: And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.

(or corrupt it?)

"Thou seest them looking toward thee but they see thee not.." (7:97)

The literal Sun and Moon are NOT the self disclosures of Hujjats !

"We have indeed sent down Manifest SIGNS !" (24:46)

Nabi was a Sign of Allah - Read 98: 1 and 2 !

Then Read 2:118; 2:207; 208; 209 and we are reminded to take heed of the Manifest Proofs !

Ta'wil of words 'An Aliyy' (Narrated by Ali):

"Mawlâ Ali reports that the holy prophet said: "I am the house of wisdom and 'Ali is its door. (Tirmidhi, V, 637).

Question: Which wisdom is mentioned in this Hadith?

Answer: The wisdom of the Qur'ân, the Hadith and spirituality, whose house is the Prophet and whose door, the Ali of the time." [Source: Tawil 629: A Thousand Wisdoms]

You may also read (9:37) and (9:124).

Allah is the supporter, the Friend and the Helper to the muttaqeen. In Surah Al-Jathiyah (The Crouching) Allah says:

". . . and Allah is the Friend of those who ward off (evil)." (45 : 19)

Leaders are to be among the muttaqeen. In this regard, Allah says in surah Al-Furqan:

". . . and make us patterns for (all) those who ward off (evil)." (25 : 74)

Know yourelf first before expecting to know who is the Imam ?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:55 pm

Of paradise and hell
By Asghar Ali Engineer | From the NewspaperYesterday

FRIENDS often ask me what I make of the concept of paradise and hell. Are these places located somewhere out there where people would enter according to their deeds, good or bad? Or are these mere symbols as those who believe in batini (concealed meaning) of the Quran?

Are these places where people would eternally abide in the physical sense? Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was often asked such questions, especially regarding the Day of Judgment. It is important to note that the Quran, like other scriptures, is more symbolic than descriptive though not altogether symbolic. No scripture could be merely descriptive in order to remain eternal. Symbolism both makes it multi-layered in meaning as well as eternal in application.

The scriptures should make sense equally for ordinary people as well as those who have attained great heights in knowledge. A scripture, if it is a means only for the highly knowledgeable, would leave ordinary people uninspired; if it is flat in description and without layers of meaning, it would not attract the highly knowledgeable. Thus what the Quran says about paradise and hell should be intelligible for both lay persons as well as the knowledgeable.

Indeed it is, provided we take the description of paradise and hell both in their literal as well as symbolic sense. There is one more aspect which one must be aware of and Sufis have often emphasised that aspect. Sufis believe that one must not do anything for greed or out of fear i.e. for reward or punishment. This is symbolised in the famous story of Rabia Basri, the noted woman Sufi saint.

One day she was carrying a burning flame in one hand and a bucket of water in the other. When people asked her why she was doing that, she replied that she wanted to set fire to paradise with the burning flame and put out the fire of hell with the bucket of water so that people stopped worshiping Allah for greed of paradise or fear of hell. A true worshipper would do that for neither but for its own merit.

The Quran is wonderfully balanced in its symbolism and descriptive language. An ordinary reader benefits from it as much as one who has achieved great heights of knowledge. The rationalists found it as much useful as the blind followers but there was great difference between the two in terms of their understanding. The Mutazilites (rationalists of Islam), the Ismailis (who believe in hidden meanings along with the literal) and the Sufis understood the Quran very differently from other literalists (Zahiris).

For Zahiris, paradise and hell have been described in vivid details in a physical sense: in paradise there will be eternal gardens with canals of milk and honey flowing, and in hell the fire will cause great physical pain, with no way out. Both places would be eternal abodes of those sent there. The description of paradise is tempting while that of hell inspires great fear.

However, there are those who treat such descriptions more symbolically and look for deeper meanings. The Quran calls paradise a place of peace and security: “We will root out whatever of rancour is in their breasts — they shall be as brethren on raised couches, face to face; toil shall but not afflict them therein, nor shall they be ejected therefrom.” (15:45-48)
Firstly, paradise is a state in which a believer would be perfectly at peace and secure. There will be no fear or feeling of doubt or restlessness. Only a person who is perfect in his/her faith can achieve such a state of mind. A doubter, a sceptic, without perfection of faith cannot feel secure and peaceful at heart. The Sufis talk of insan-i-kamil, i.e. a perfect human being. Their whole effort is to achieve this state of being because only such a person is perfectly at peace with himself.

Also, there are stages to perfection, and one has always to try to achieve a higher and higher stage on the way to perfection. It is not correct to say that paradise is a place of rest and enjoyment. Far from it. It is a place of constant efforts to raise oneself to higher degrees of perfection. Thus the Quran says, “But those who keep their duty to their Lord shall have high places, above them higher places, built (for them)” (39:20). Thus paradise is not at all a place of eternal rest and enjoyment but that of spiritual efforts for further stages to perfection.

It is abiding in the sense that these are ceaseless efforts and once you achieve one stage of perfection there is no looking back; one goes on and there is great fulfilment in making these efforts. The more of such efforts, the more one feels at peace with oneself.

Similarly, hell is, for those who are people of knowledge, a state of mind in which one is far from perfection in one’s faith but in a constant state of doubt or even hypocrisy and thus remains in a state of torment; it is the fire of doubt or hypocrisy which keeps tormenting one, and as those who rise in a state of perfection in the case of paradise, one keeps on falling lower and lower in the case of hell. The greater the depth of the fall, the graver the torment.

However, the Quran provides for what it calls taubat al-nusuh (sincere repentance), which can redeem one of this torture. One always has a choice either to rise higher and higher to the state of perfection or fall to a state of the lowest of the low.

The writer is an Islamic scholar who also heads the Centre for Study of Society & Secularism, Mumbai.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/09/09/of-parad ... -hell.html