According to the old dua, the Imam succeeding Krishna was Parikshat.
However, according to Mahabarat, this Parikshat was the grandson of Arjun and eventually became the King of Hastinapur.
Wouldnt Parikshat have to be descended from Krishna? The Hindu sources say that another of Krishna's grandson's succeeded him as king of Ayodhya.
What is the Ismaili take on all this. Can someone provide any info in this area?
Who was the Imam that succeeded Krishna?
Whatever is in the Asal Dua is part of Ismailism. But the names appearing in the geneology do not point to one generation after one generation. There may be gap in time.
For example the fact that in today's dua the name of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah comes before Shah Karim does not mean a father to son relation, it may well be a father to grand-son or great grand-son relation etc. Also there may be some similar names in different families / in different generation in the same region or palace, which may confuse us.
I am not sure there are enough documents available on this subject to complete the geneology...
For example the fact that in today's dua the name of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah comes before Shah Karim does not mean a father to son relation, it may well be a father to grand-son or great grand-son relation etc. Also there may be some similar names in different families / in different generation in the same region or palace, which may confuse us.
I am not sure there are enough documents available on this subject to complete the geneology...
Pre-Adam
Ya Ali Madad,
My grandfather was telling me that after Krishna the ninth awtar is bodth (not mahatma bodth or gotham bodth) the bodth awtar is only four and a half hours long. From there kaljug starts. After bodth awtar imam was shesh who is the son of modern adam according to my memories Shah Karim is the 71st imam by all of the jomas.
My grandfather was telling me that after Krishna the ninth awtar is bodth (not mahatma bodth or gotham bodth) the bodth awtar is only four and a half hours long. From there kaljug starts. After bodth awtar imam was shesh who is the son of modern adam according to my memories Shah Karim is the 71st imam by all of the jomas.
Here are the names in the old dua:
Krishna
Parikhshat,
Janmejay,
Shesanand,
Satanand,
Swas Than,
Budsthan,
Vinvachhraaj,
Shri Budha (aka: Honayd)
Seth
....
According to Hindu material I have read on the web....Parikshat, Janmejay, Shesanand, and Satanand were Kings of the Pandaw lineage.
Parikshat is said to be the grandson of Arjun. However, this is the interesting part. While Parikshat was in his mothers womb, it is said that the baby was targeted by a divine weapon. Therefore, Krishna intervened and actually went inside the womb to protect the baby. When the baby was born, it was near death, but Krishna appeared physically and saved the child (he said that Light cannot be overcome by darkness). Perhaps this implies that the baby Parikshat was a being of Light? Maybe this whole story is a cover-up, and what really happened is that Parikshit is the descendant of Krishna in reality, but not in appearance, like Imam Hassan II.
In that case, the Imams after Krishna were Pandaw kings by their mother's side, but from Krishna on the father's side - unbeknownst to the public.
Anyone with more info...plz provide it.
Krishna
Parikhshat,
Janmejay,
Shesanand,
Satanand,
Swas Than,
Budsthan,
Vinvachhraaj,
Shri Budha (aka: Honayd)
Seth
....
According to Hindu material I have read on the web....Parikshat, Janmejay, Shesanand, and Satanand were Kings of the Pandaw lineage.
Parikshat is said to be the grandson of Arjun. However, this is the interesting part. While Parikshat was in his mothers womb, it is said that the baby was targeted by a divine weapon. Therefore, Krishna intervened and actually went inside the womb to protect the baby. When the baby was born, it was near death, but Krishna appeared physically and saved the child (he said that Light cannot be overcome by darkness). Perhaps this implies that the baby Parikshat was a being of Light? Maybe this whole story is a cover-up, and what really happened is that Parikshit is the descendant of Krishna in reality, but not in appearance, like Imam Hassan II.
In that case, the Imams after Krishna were Pandaw kings by their mother's side, but from Krishna on the father's side - unbeknownst to the public.
Anyone with more info...plz provide it.
Lord Krishna
The following is based upon my analysis of the information from late Alwaez Shamshuddin Bandali Haji's book "Noor en Ala Noor".
There is a list of 'Patra 77' meaning 77 bearers of the Noor of Vishnu before Hazarat Ali. Shri Krishna is not even mentioned as one of them. What this means is that Vishnu assumed the form of Krishna over 2400 years (Dua pur Jug) encompasing many physical bodies. There are seven names that are mentioned for that period. These are
43. Parikhshat
44. Janmejay
45. Shesanand
46. Satanand
47. Swasthan
48. Budhsthan
49. Vinvachhraaj
7 names cannot span a period of 2400 years. In my opinion the 7 names represent the seven important facets of Lord Krishna and not the entire geneology for that period. This is as if we call Shah Karim as a Naklanki as much as Hazarat Ali. They represent a different facet or circumstance of Naklanki Avataar.
Based on the above, I am inclined to deduce that the Krishna that was born to King Vasudevji and Devki was a different embodiment than the Krishna that helped the Padavs in their war against Korvas.
It seems meaningless to discuss about the successor to Lord Krishna in this context.
There is a list of 'Patra 77' meaning 77 bearers of the Noor of Vishnu before Hazarat Ali. Shri Krishna is not even mentioned as one of them. What this means is that Vishnu assumed the form of Krishna over 2400 years (Dua pur Jug) encompasing many physical bodies. There are seven names that are mentioned for that period. These are
43. Parikhshat
44. Janmejay
45. Shesanand
46. Satanand
47. Swasthan
48. Budhsthan
49. Vinvachhraaj
7 names cannot span a period of 2400 years. In my opinion the 7 names represent the seven important facets of Lord Krishna and not the entire geneology for that period. This is as if we call Shah Karim as a Naklanki as much as Hazarat Ali. They represent a different facet or circumstance of Naklanki Avataar.
Based on the above, I am inclined to deduce that the Krishna that was born to King Vasudevji and Devki was a different embodiment than the Krishna that helped the Padavs in their war against Korvas.
It seems meaningless to discuss about the successor to Lord Krishna in this context.
Imams
I think we also have to take into account that life spans of imams and prophets in the olden days were longer than today..eg Nabi Nuh (noah) lived for a few centuries...as did Ibrahim and the other prophets...
thus the Imams or Avatars might have lived for centuries too?
Shams
thus the Imams or Avatars might have lived for centuries too?
Shams
Re: Imams
It seems more a myth than reality. Extending the Patras, there were 28 bearers covering the Kaljug period of 1300 years to Hazarat Aly which gives an average life span say 47 years which reflects the reality of that time. This covers the names you are referring to, i.e from Seth to Abu Talib.ShamsB wrote:I think we also have to take into account that life spans of imams and prophets in the olden days were longer than today..eg Nabi Nuh (noah) lived for a few centuries...as did Ibrahim and the other prophets...
thus the Imams or Avatars might have lived for centuries too?
Shams
Normally the Imams and Prophets do not express their supernatural abilities at the ordinary level and hence they tend to live according to the current circumstances.
Kmaherally,
Actually, Krishna is mentioned in the old dua. However, the Avatars are not included as Patras because the Avatars were manifested/revealed in their respective times, while the Patras were "hidden, undeclared Imams".
"Based on the above, I am inclined to deduce that the Krishna that was born to King Vasudevji and Devki was a different embodiment than the Krishna that helped the Padavs in their war against Korvas. "
- I would disagree here. According to Mahabarata, Krishna was born to Vasudev and Devaki. This is the same Krishna who helped the Pandaws.
"In my opinion the 7 names represent the seven important facets of Lord Krishna and not the entire geneology for that period."
- I may agree with you here. However, according to the dating of Dr. Varta (Hindu Pundit and scholar), the events of Krishna took place in 5600 BC. According to Ismailian traditions, Budh Avatar (Imam Honayd) lived in 4000 BC. That gives us 1600 years and 7 generations. Which gives 230 years per generation - which is exaggerated. I believe the truth to be half of that...therefore, probably 14 names between Imam Krishna and Imam Honayd. Pir Sadardin has mentioned the 7 major names - including the names of 4 Pandaw Kings who ruled after Mahabarrat.
I am sticking to the theory that King Parikshat was the grandson of Arjun only in appearance but actually the descendant of Krishna in reality (which explains his Imamate in the old dua).
"It seems more a myth than reality. Extending the Patras, there were 28 bearers covering the Kaljug period of 1300 years to Hazarat Aly which gives an average life span say 47 years which reflects the reality of that time. This covers the names you are referring to, i.e from Seth to Abu Talib. "
- I agree with you here. Pir Sadardin gives only the major names from Kaljug to Imam Ali. Although in this time (4000 BC to 600 AD), about 4600 years have passed. It seems more realistic to say that Pir only mentioned the major names in the dua. eg: Seth and Melchizedek.
What are your guys thoughts? Nagib, Kmaherali? others?
Actually, Krishna is mentioned in the old dua. However, the Avatars are not included as Patras because the Avatars were manifested/revealed in their respective times, while the Patras were "hidden, undeclared Imams".
"Based on the above, I am inclined to deduce that the Krishna that was born to King Vasudevji and Devki was a different embodiment than the Krishna that helped the Padavs in their war against Korvas. "
- I would disagree here. According to Mahabarata, Krishna was born to Vasudev and Devaki. This is the same Krishna who helped the Pandaws.
"In my opinion the 7 names represent the seven important facets of Lord Krishna and not the entire geneology for that period."
- I may agree with you here. However, according to the dating of Dr. Varta (Hindu Pundit and scholar), the events of Krishna took place in 5600 BC. According to Ismailian traditions, Budh Avatar (Imam Honayd) lived in 4000 BC. That gives us 1600 years and 7 generations. Which gives 230 years per generation - which is exaggerated. I believe the truth to be half of that...therefore, probably 14 names between Imam Krishna and Imam Honayd. Pir Sadardin has mentioned the 7 major names - including the names of 4 Pandaw Kings who ruled after Mahabarrat.
I am sticking to the theory that King Parikshat was the grandson of Arjun only in appearance but actually the descendant of Krishna in reality (which explains his Imamate in the old dua).
"It seems more a myth than reality. Extending the Patras, there were 28 bearers covering the Kaljug period of 1300 years to Hazarat Aly which gives an average life span say 47 years which reflects the reality of that time. This covers the names you are referring to, i.e from Seth to Abu Talib. "
- I agree with you here. Pir Sadardin gives only the major names from Kaljug to Imam Ali. Although in this time (4000 BC to 600 AD), about 4600 years have passed. It seems more realistic to say that Pir only mentioned the major names in the dua. eg: Seth and Melchizedek.
What are your guys thoughts? Nagib, Kmaherali? others?
Four Yugas
Kandani,
These are interesting issues. There is a great deal of obscurity in these issues due to the distance in time and the individual perspectives of different scholars conflicting with each other. I will try to explain some of the issues that have been highlighted.
"Actually, Krishna is mentioned in the old dua. However, the Avatars are not included as Patras because the Avatars were manifested/revealed in their respective times, while the Patras were "hidden, undeclared Imams"."
Since Krishna Avatar was human, wouldn't one of the Patras also be an Avatar or wouldn't all of them be considered as Lord Krishna, like all Imams in the present era are considered as Naklanki Avataar?
"- I would disagree here. According to Mahabarata, Krishna was born to Vasudev and Devaki. This is the same Krishna who helped the Pandaws."
Actually I was trying to make sense of Alwaez Haji's presentation in his book. According to him the Dua Pur Jug began at the birth of Krishna and ended when the Pandavs exiled themselves to Himalays and the advent of Budh Avatars. These covers the entire Dua Pur Jug! According to you the Pandavs that were exiled were not the Pandavs that were helped by Lord Krishna. Am I right.
The time period that I am referring to is based upon the theory of Yugas propounded by Swami Sri Yukteswar in his book "The Holy Science". According to him the Satya Yug covers 4800 yrs, Treta Yug covers 3600 yrs, Duapur Yug covers 2400 yrs and Kal jug covers a period of 1200 yrs. This is based upon the revolution of the sun about it's dual. I will not discuss this at a greater detail here but it is more consistent than inconsistent in my opinion and I therefore give it more credance in terms of explaining the time periods. According to him we have covered half cycle i.e Satya -> Treta -> Duapur -> Kaljug and now we are ascending towards the Satya. According to his calculations the turning point happened at around 500AD. We have actually passed the ascending Kaliyuga and that happened around 1700AD. We are actually in the ascending Duapur at present. He links the ability of the mind to comprehend subtleties of the material world as a function of the cycles. Hence we are witnessing rapid scientific progress today especially after 1700AD. This will accelerate in coming years as we get deeper into the Dua Pur Jug.
Based on the above, the Krishna era covered 2400 years and the 28 Patras that I alluded to covered a period of 1400 years which is realistic( av 50 yrs). You may want to read this book and then we could discuss this further.
These are interesting issues. There is a great deal of obscurity in these issues due to the distance in time and the individual perspectives of different scholars conflicting with each other. I will try to explain some of the issues that have been highlighted.
"Actually, Krishna is mentioned in the old dua. However, the Avatars are not included as Patras because the Avatars were manifested/revealed in their respective times, while the Patras were "hidden, undeclared Imams"."
Since Krishna Avatar was human, wouldn't one of the Patras also be an Avatar or wouldn't all of them be considered as Lord Krishna, like all Imams in the present era are considered as Naklanki Avataar?
"- I would disagree here. According to Mahabarata, Krishna was born to Vasudev and Devaki. This is the same Krishna who helped the Pandaws."
Actually I was trying to make sense of Alwaez Haji's presentation in his book. According to him the Dua Pur Jug began at the birth of Krishna and ended when the Pandavs exiled themselves to Himalays and the advent of Budh Avatars. These covers the entire Dua Pur Jug! According to you the Pandavs that were exiled were not the Pandavs that were helped by Lord Krishna. Am I right.
The time period that I am referring to is based upon the theory of Yugas propounded by Swami Sri Yukteswar in his book "The Holy Science". According to him the Satya Yug covers 4800 yrs, Treta Yug covers 3600 yrs, Duapur Yug covers 2400 yrs and Kal jug covers a period of 1200 yrs. This is based upon the revolution of the sun about it's dual. I will not discuss this at a greater detail here but it is more consistent than inconsistent in my opinion and I therefore give it more credance in terms of explaining the time periods. According to him we have covered half cycle i.e Satya -> Treta -> Duapur -> Kaljug and now we are ascending towards the Satya. According to his calculations the turning point happened at around 500AD. We have actually passed the ascending Kaliyuga and that happened around 1700AD. We are actually in the ascending Duapur at present. He links the ability of the mind to comprehend subtleties of the material world as a function of the cycles. Hence we are witnessing rapid scientific progress today especially after 1700AD. This will accelerate in coming years as we get deeper into the Dua Pur Jug.
Based on the above, the Krishna era covered 2400 years and the 28 Patras that I alluded to covered a period of 1400 years which is realistic( av 50 yrs). You may want to read this book and then we could discuss this further.
Re: Who was the Imam that succeeded Krishna?
kandani wrote:According to the old dua, the Imam succeeding Krishna was Parikshat.
Can it be that parikshat just means succesor or descendant?
Nagib
"Can it be that parikshat just means succesor or descendant?"
- it could mean that. But i dont think its a coincidents that the names of Parikshit and his successor Imams are common and occur in the list of Pandaw Kings.
"Actually I was trying to make sense of Alwaez Haji's presentation in his book. According to him the Dua Pur Jug began at the birth of Krishna and ended when the Pandavs exiled themselves to Himalays and the advent of Budh Avatars. These covers the entire Dua Pur Jug! According to you the Pandavs that were exiled were not the Pandavs that were helped by Lord Krishna. Am I right."
- Per my interpretation, the Pandaws mentioned in the Budh Avatar would probably be "reincarnations" of the Pandaws who lived in Krishna's period. basically, before they commit sins again, the Imam Honayd (Budh Avatar) shows up and saves them. Then they go to the Himalayas to attain salvation and leave before Kaljug begins (4000 BC).
- As for Haji's interpretation of the cycles, I would have to disagree. The time periods in themselves are fine and make sense, but i place Ram at 7400 BC (well into Duapurjug) and Krishna a 5600 BC (2000 years after Rama). Budh Avatar comes at 4000 BC.
Obviously, ppl have different interpretations.
"The time period that I am referring to is based upon the theory of Yugas propounded by Swami Sri Yukteswar in his book "The Holy Science". According to him the Satya Yug covers 4800 yrs, Treta Yug covers 3600 yrs, Duapur Yug covers 2400 yrs and Kal jug covers a period of 1200 yrs. This is based upon the revolution of the sun about it's dual. I will not discuss this at a greater detail here but it is more consistent than inconsistent in my opinion and I therefore give it more credance in terms of explaining the time periods. According to him we have covered half cycle i.e Satya -> Treta -> Duapur -> Kaljug and now we are ascending towards the Satya. According to his calculations the turning point happened at around 500AD. We have actually passed the ascending Kaliyuga and that happened around 1700AD. We are actually in the ascending Duapur at present. He links the ability of the mind to comprehend subtleties of the material world as a function of the cycles. Hence we are witnessing rapid scientific progress today especially after 1700AD. This will accelerate in coming years as we get deeper into the Dua Pur Jug. "
this is intersting. Havent heard this version before. But as far as i know, the Kaljug lasts 432,000 years (according to ginans) and began in 4000 BC. We still have long to go. I will try to look into the theory you have presented here. It could also mean that within each big cycle, there is a further division of cycles.
- it could mean that. But i dont think its a coincidents that the names of Parikshit and his successor Imams are common and occur in the list of Pandaw Kings.
"Actually I was trying to make sense of Alwaez Haji's presentation in his book. According to him the Dua Pur Jug began at the birth of Krishna and ended when the Pandavs exiled themselves to Himalays and the advent of Budh Avatars. These covers the entire Dua Pur Jug! According to you the Pandavs that were exiled were not the Pandavs that were helped by Lord Krishna. Am I right."
- Per my interpretation, the Pandaws mentioned in the Budh Avatar would probably be "reincarnations" of the Pandaws who lived in Krishna's period. basically, before they commit sins again, the Imam Honayd (Budh Avatar) shows up and saves them. Then they go to the Himalayas to attain salvation and leave before Kaljug begins (4000 BC).
- As for Haji's interpretation of the cycles, I would have to disagree. The time periods in themselves are fine and make sense, but i place Ram at 7400 BC (well into Duapurjug) and Krishna a 5600 BC (2000 years after Rama). Budh Avatar comes at 4000 BC.
Obviously, ppl have different interpretations.
"The time period that I am referring to is based upon the theory of Yugas propounded by Swami Sri Yukteswar in his book "The Holy Science". According to him the Satya Yug covers 4800 yrs, Treta Yug covers 3600 yrs, Duapur Yug covers 2400 yrs and Kal jug covers a period of 1200 yrs. This is based upon the revolution of the sun about it's dual. I will not discuss this at a greater detail here but it is more consistent than inconsistent in my opinion and I therefore give it more credance in terms of explaining the time periods. According to him we have covered half cycle i.e Satya -> Treta -> Duapur -> Kaljug and now we are ascending towards the Satya. According to his calculations the turning point happened at around 500AD. We have actually passed the ascending Kaliyuga and that happened around 1700AD. We are actually in the ascending Duapur at present. He links the ability of the mind to comprehend subtleties of the material world as a function of the cycles. Hence we are witnessing rapid scientific progress today especially after 1700AD. This will accelerate in coming years as we get deeper into the Dua Pur Jug. "
this is intersting. Havent heard this version before. But as far as i know, the Kaljug lasts 432,000 years (according to ginans) and began in 4000 BC. We still have long to go. I will try to look into the theory you have presented here. It could also mean that within each big cycle, there is a further division of cycles.
In the Ginan "Pahela Karta Jug Maa(n)he Shahnaa", Pir Sadardeen states that Sri Ramchandra existed in Treta Jug. I think if we adopt Swami Sri Yukteswars theory, that would place Krishna at around 3000BC(Dua Pur Jug) and Sri Ram at around 5000BC(Treta Jug) and Budh Avtaar at around 600BC(Kal jug).kandani wrote: - As for Haji's interpretation of the cycles, I would have to disagree. The time periods in themselves are fine and make sense, but i place Ram at 7400 BC (well into Duapurjug) and Krishna a 5600 BC (2000 years after Rama). Budh Avatar comes at 4000 BC.
this is intersting. Havent heard this version before. But as far as i know, the Kaljug lasts 432,000 years (according to ginans) and began in 4000 BC. We still have long to go. I will try to look into the theory you have presented here. It could also mean that within each big cycle, there is a further division of cycles.
My feeling is that 432,000 years may be actually days. If you divide 432,000 by 360 you get 1200. This theory is more consistent with the Yugas and their respective Avataars as expounded by our Pirs.
To know that we are still deep in the Kal Jug is a very gloomy prospect.
"In the Ginan "Pahela Karta Jug Maa(n)he Shahnaa", Pir Sadardeen states that Sri Ramchandra existed in Treta Jug. I think if we adopt Swami Sri Yukteswars theory, that would place Krishna at around 3000BC(Dua Pur Jug) and Sri Ram at around 5000BC(Treta Jug) and Budh Avtaar at around 600BC(Kal jug). "
- there have been many Kings named Rama. The Rama of the Ramayan events may be different from the Rama who reigned in Treta Jug.
If we go by your theory, we have a conflict with the biblical genealogies. Because we have Imam Krishna and Imam Shem (son of Noah) living in the same period for example.
As for Kaljug, if we look around us...i think it is obivous that we are into Kaljug.
But who knows?
- there have been many Kings named Rama. The Rama of the Ramayan events may be different from the Rama who reigned in Treta Jug.
If we go by your theory, we have a conflict with the biblical genealogies. Because we have Imam Krishna and Imam Shem (son of Noah) living in the same period for example.
As for Kaljug, if we look around us...i think it is obivous that we are into Kaljug.
But who knows?
But then how reliable and accurate are the biblical geneologies.kandani wrote:If we go by your theory, we have a conflict with the biblical genealogies. Because we have Imam Krishna and Imam Shem (son of Noah) living in the same period for example.
As for Kaljug, if we look around us...i think it is obivous that we are into Kaljug.
But who knows?
If you are talking about moral issues, I think these have existed even during the Dua pur that we already know about. But as far as the capacity of the mind is concerned we are certainly advancing and not regressing as the Kaljug would seem to indicate.
Any way please read that theory and let me know what what you think.
It has been a good discussion.
Lord Krishna's Timeframe
The following is an exerpt from the footnote to the introduction to "God Talks with Arjuna, THE BHAGAVATD GITA" translations and commentary by Paramahansa Yogananda, which I feel is of relevance to this discussion.
In Astronomical Dating of the Mahabharata War (Delhi: Agam Kala Prakasham, 1896) Dr. E. Vedavyas surveyed the researches done by 120 scholars over the past hundred years. Sixty-one of the scholars fixed the Kurukshetra war as having occured between 3000 and 3200 B.C. The next favoured time period - subscribed to by forty of the scholars - was between 1000 and 1500 B.C. [ This is within Swami Sri Yukteshwar's theory of Dua Pur Jug]
In 1987 archeologists discovered the ruins of a prosperous ancient city just off the west coast of India underwater in the Gulf of Kutch - the precise location where traditional places Dwarka, the city founded by Sri Krishna. The Mahabharata describes how at the end of Krishna's life the sea rose and engulfed Dwarka. According to the MLBD Newsletter of Indological Bibliography (September 1987 and January 1988), archeologists believe that the newly discovered ruins may have been the site of Krishna's capital, and estimate that the ruins are approximately 3,500 years old. Whether or not this yields an accurate date for Krishna's liftime is open to speculation, since it is known that Dwarka was built on the ruins of another older city, according to Dr. S.R. rao. leader of the undersea excavation.
In Astronomical Dating of the Mahabharata War (Delhi: Agam Kala Prakasham, 1896) Dr. E. Vedavyas surveyed the researches done by 120 scholars over the past hundred years. Sixty-one of the scholars fixed the Kurukshetra war as having occured between 3000 and 3200 B.C. The next favoured time period - subscribed to by forty of the scholars - was between 1000 and 1500 B.C. [ This is within Swami Sri Yukteshwar's theory of Dua Pur Jug]
In 1987 archeologists discovered the ruins of a prosperous ancient city just off the west coast of India underwater in the Gulf of Kutch - the precise location where traditional places Dwarka, the city founded by Sri Krishna. The Mahabharata describes how at the end of Krishna's life the sea rose and engulfed Dwarka. According to the MLBD Newsletter of Indological Bibliography (September 1987 and January 1988), archeologists believe that the newly discovered ruins may have been the site of Krishna's capital, and estimate that the ruins are approximately 3,500 years old. Whether or not this yields an accurate date for Krishna's liftime is open to speculation, since it is known that Dwarka was built on the ruins of another older city, according to Dr. S.R. rao. leader of the undersea excavation.
Lord Krishna and Old Dua
I have had a chance to rehear the Old Ghat Paat Dua (this was for the second time). This is what it says.
Vann Shri Raam , Vann Shri Raam naa Padam, Jashvadhan, Virpaar, Vasudev
Vann Shri Krishna, Vann Shri Kaan naa Parikhshat, Janmejay, Shesanand, Satanand, Swasthan, Budhstaan, Vinvachhraaj
Which would translate into:
The manifestation of Shri Raam, of Shri Raam are Padam, Jashvadhan, Virpaar, Vasudev
The manifestation of Shri Krishna, of Shri Kaan are Parikhshat, Janmejay, Shesanand, Satanand, Swasthan, Budhstaan, Vinvachhraaj
The above would confirm my earlier intuitions about the names being facets of Krishna rather than being the actual geneology.
If Vasudev mentioned above was indeed the father of Krishna, then I am inclined to say that the Krishna that helped the Pandavs in the Kurukshetra war was a different Krishna.
I read the Budh avataar and from it the names of the Paa(n)ch Pandavs that were saved by Shri Budh seem to be the same names that were helped by Lord Krishna. It implies that the Kurkshetra war actually took place a few decades before the end of Dua Pur Jug. This theory is also held by Swami Sri Yukteswar.
Based on the above, I am inclined to disagree about the theory of "reincarnations" of pa(n)davs over a period of 2000 years!
Vann Shri Raam , Vann Shri Raam naa Padam, Jashvadhan, Virpaar, Vasudev
Vann Shri Krishna, Vann Shri Kaan naa Parikhshat, Janmejay, Shesanand, Satanand, Swasthan, Budhstaan, Vinvachhraaj
Which would translate into:
The manifestation of Shri Raam, of Shri Raam are Padam, Jashvadhan, Virpaar, Vasudev
The manifestation of Shri Krishna, of Shri Kaan are Parikhshat, Janmejay, Shesanand, Satanand, Swasthan, Budhstaan, Vinvachhraaj
The above would confirm my earlier intuitions about the names being facets of Krishna rather than being the actual geneology.
If Vasudev mentioned above was indeed the father of Krishna, then I am inclined to say that the Krishna that helped the Pandavs in the Kurukshetra war was a different Krishna.
I read the Budh avataar and from it the names of the Paa(n)ch Pandavs that were saved by Shri Budh seem to be the same names that were helped by Lord Krishna. It implies that the Kurkshetra war actually took place a few decades before the end of Dua Pur Jug. This theory is also held by Swami Sri Yukteswar.
Based on the above, I am inclined to disagree about the theory of "reincarnations" of pa(n)davs over a period of 2000 years!
Old Ghatpat dua
YAM K
Do you have the old ghatpat dua?
I have been looking for almost 3 years.
If you do have it can I have a copy of it.
My email is [email protected]
Do you have the old ghatpat dua?
I have been looking for almost 3 years.
If you do have it can I have a copy of it.
My email is [email protected]
Thanks for the translation....
I am very sure that Krishna helped the Pandaws and that Vasudev was the father of Krishna.
The Mahabarrat mentions Vasudev, Krishna and the Pandaws. Also, Krishna is even called Vasudev sometimes in the story.
As for the Pandaw reincarnation theory - its my theory and thats all. You are free to disagree.
The Persian Ismaili sources speak of an Imam Honayd closing the previous cycle (Duapurjoug) and opening Kaljug. Budhh Avatar speaks of the same events.
"The above would confirm my earlier intuitions about the names being facets of Krishna rather than being the actual geneology. "
- I would disagree. There would have to be a person named Rama and a person named Krishna for periods of Imams to be named after them. For example, all Imams in this era are Ali - and thats because the first manifest Imam of this era was Ali. Similarily, in those times, Krishna manfiested and all his successors were named after him.
I'm gonna stick to the dates i'v found:
Rama Avatar at 7400 BC
followed by 60 generations of Imams (4 are mentioned)
Krishna Avatar at 5600 BC
followed by maybe 14 generations of Imams (7 are mentioned)
Budh Avatar (Imam Honayd) at 4000 BC
followed by Imam Seth and the biblical Imams...up to Imam Adnan, followed by the Arabian genealogy to Imam Ali, followed by revealed Imams to Shah Karim.
I am very sure that Krishna helped the Pandaws and that Vasudev was the father of Krishna.
The Mahabarrat mentions Vasudev, Krishna and the Pandaws. Also, Krishna is even called Vasudev sometimes in the story.
As for the Pandaw reincarnation theory - its my theory and thats all. You are free to disagree.
The Persian Ismaili sources speak of an Imam Honayd closing the previous cycle (Duapurjoug) and opening Kaljug. Budhh Avatar speaks of the same events.
"The above would confirm my earlier intuitions about the names being facets of Krishna rather than being the actual geneology. "
- I would disagree. There would have to be a person named Rama and a person named Krishna for periods of Imams to be named after them. For example, all Imams in this era are Ali - and thats because the first manifest Imam of this era was Ali. Similarily, in those times, Krishna manfiested and all his successors were named after him.
I'm gonna stick to the dates i'v found:
Rama Avatar at 7400 BC
followed by 60 generations of Imams (4 are mentioned)
Krishna Avatar at 5600 BC
followed by maybe 14 generations of Imams (7 are mentioned)
Budh Avatar (Imam Honayd) at 4000 BC
followed by Imam Seth and the biblical Imams...up to Imam Adnan, followed by the Arabian genealogy to Imam Ali, followed by revealed Imams to Shah Karim.
Mabharata - A Work of Art
"I am very sure that Krishna helped the Pandaws and that Vasudev was the father of Krishna.
The Mahabarrat mentions Vasudev, Krishna and the Pandaws. Also, Krishna is even called Vasudev sometimes in the story."
It must be realised that Mabharata is not meant to be a historical document per se. It is really a work of art. Though it is based upon historical facts, its underlying intent is to illustrate eternal principles of dharam. Therefore the historical information may be couched in a manner to give an impression that persons of different time periods are 'acting' in a contempory sense. For example they may connect Vasudeva, Krishna and Pandavs although they belong to different points in time. For us there is no issue because we believe it is a different facet of Krishna. Paramhansa Yogananda says: "While many of the chief events and persons in the compendious Mahabharata indeed have their basis in historical fact, their poetic presentation in the epic has been arranged conveniently and meaningfully ( and wonderfully condensed in Bhagavad Gita portion) for the primary purpose of setting forth the essence of India's Santana Dharma, Eternal Religion."
"- I would disagree. There would have to be a person named Rama and a person named Krishna for periods of Imams to be named after them. For example, all Imams in this era are Ali - and thats because the first manifest Imam of this era was Ali. Similarily, in those times, Krishna manfiested and all his successors were named after him."
As for the Old Ghat Paat Dua, for all manifestations accept Ali, there is no mention of the name of the manifestation after their name although some of them were human. For example for Krishna it says Vann Shri Krishna, Shri Kaan naa Parikhshat, Janmejay. Only for Ali it says Vann Shri Mowla Ali Dasmo Naklanki Avtaar, Vachan Abu Talib Hak Mowlana Ali, Mowlana Husein ... It is only in the case of Ali that he is explicitly mentioned as the commencement of the phase. This suggests that Krishna that manifested could be any of the seven names just as Naklanki could mean any of the 49 Imams ( including Ali) in the modern era.
As for the dates we will agree to disagree. There is a huge difference.
The Mahabarrat mentions Vasudev, Krishna and the Pandaws. Also, Krishna is even called Vasudev sometimes in the story."
It must be realised that Mabharata is not meant to be a historical document per se. It is really a work of art. Though it is based upon historical facts, its underlying intent is to illustrate eternal principles of dharam. Therefore the historical information may be couched in a manner to give an impression that persons of different time periods are 'acting' in a contempory sense. For example they may connect Vasudeva, Krishna and Pandavs although they belong to different points in time. For us there is no issue because we believe it is a different facet of Krishna. Paramhansa Yogananda says: "While many of the chief events and persons in the compendious Mahabharata indeed have their basis in historical fact, their poetic presentation in the epic has been arranged conveniently and meaningfully ( and wonderfully condensed in Bhagavad Gita portion) for the primary purpose of setting forth the essence of India's Santana Dharma, Eternal Religion."
"- I would disagree. There would have to be a person named Rama and a person named Krishna for periods of Imams to be named after them. For example, all Imams in this era are Ali - and thats because the first manifest Imam of this era was Ali. Similarily, in those times, Krishna manfiested and all his successors were named after him."
As for the Old Ghat Paat Dua, for all manifestations accept Ali, there is no mention of the name of the manifestation after their name although some of them were human. For example for Krishna it says Vann Shri Krishna, Shri Kaan naa Parikhshat, Janmejay. Only for Ali it says Vann Shri Mowla Ali Dasmo Naklanki Avtaar, Vachan Abu Talib Hak Mowlana Ali, Mowlana Husein ... It is only in the case of Ali that he is explicitly mentioned as the commencement of the phase. This suggests that Krishna that manifested could be any of the seven names just as Naklanki could mean any of the 49 Imams ( including Ali) in the modern era.
As for the dates we will agree to disagree. There is a huge difference.
Re: Old Ghatpat dua
I have 3 cassette covering the explanation of Ghat paat Ceremony which involves recitation of the entire old Ghat Paat Dua and its expalnation by Alwaez Shamshuddin Bandali Haji. I could reproduce them and send them to you. That would involve a cost!shamsu wrote:YAM K
Do you have the old ghatpat dua?
I have been looking for almost 3 years.
If you do have it can I have a copy of it.
My email is [email protected]
Facets of Vishnu
I think I need to clarify what I mean by a facet or circumstance of an Avataar. It does not mean that it is an imaginary name. It could mean a name of the Imam representing a particular facet.
If we consider the modern era, then an example of historical facets would be pre-Fatimid, Fatimid, Alumut, Post Alumut, Modern period. Their representative Imams would be Hazarat Ali, Imam Al Hakim, Sri Islam Shah, Al Nizar and Shah Karim respectively for example.
A Pir Sadardin composing Dua 5000 years hence would only mention the above named 5 Imams instead of 49 Imams representing the different historical facets of Naklanki avataar.
Incidently the Sunskrit word avatara means "descent"; its roots are ava, "down" and tri, "to pass". In the Hindu scriptures, avatara signifies the descent of Divinity into flesh.
If we consider the modern era, then an example of historical facets would be pre-Fatimid, Fatimid, Alumut, Post Alumut, Modern period. Their representative Imams would be Hazarat Ali, Imam Al Hakim, Sri Islam Shah, Al Nizar and Shah Karim respectively for example.
A Pir Sadardin composing Dua 5000 years hence would only mention the above named 5 Imams instead of 49 Imams representing the different historical facets of Naklanki avataar.
Incidently the Sunskrit word avatara means "descent"; its roots are ava, "down" and tri, "to pass". In the Hindu scriptures, avatara signifies the descent of Divinity into flesh.
Budh Avatar
Kandani,Rama Avatar at 7400 BC
followed by 60 generations of Imams (4 are mentioned)
Krishna Avatar at 5600 BC
followed by maybe 14 generations of Imams (7 are mentioned)
Budh Avatar (Imam Honayd) at 4000 BC
I have read a ginan that mentions budh avatar and his interactions with the pandavs in detail.
A very interesting ginan that was written by Pir Sadardeen titled Budh Avatar and it has 522 lines.
Just thought I should mention it.
Shams
Budh Avatar
Budh Avataar has been mentioned in the discussion.
Krishna A Title - Not a Name
The following excerpt from Paramahansa Yogananda indicates that Krishna was not a person but a title. Therefore any of the seven names mentioned and others not mentioned in Dua Pur as Krishna avataar could be Krishna.
"Christ" and "Krishna" are titles having the same spiritual conotation: Jesus the Christ and Yadava the Krishna (Yadava a family name for Krishna, signifies his descent from Yadu, forerunner of Vrishni dynasty). These titles identify the state of conciousness manifested by these two illumined beings, their incarnate oneness with the consciousness of God omnipresent in creation.
"Christ" and "Krishna" are titles having the same spiritual conotation: Jesus the Christ and Yadava the Krishna (Yadava a family name for Krishna, signifies his descent from Yadu, forerunner of Vrishni dynasty). These titles identify the state of conciousness manifested by these two illumined beings, their incarnate oneness with the consciousness of God omnipresent in creation.
Re: Budh Avatar
shamsu wrote: I have read a ginan that mentions budh avatar and his interactions with the pandavs in detail.
A very interesting ginan that was written by Pir Sadardeen titled Budh Avatar and it has 522 lines.
Just thought I should mention it.
Shams
Just to mention the link of this Budh Avatar Granth on this web site:
http://www.ismaili.net/granths/budheng.html
This is for the English translation. There is also a French translation.... go through Ginan link...
Budh avatar
ENGLISH TRANSLATION
1. The Ninth Divine Manifestation was Budh
He appeared in the guise of a Moghol
===================================
REMAINING hundreds of verses HAVE BEEN DELETED BY ADMIN. REFER TO THE LINK IN THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE ABOVE FOR THE TRANSLATION.
ADMIN
======================================
1. The Ninth Divine Manifestation was Budh
He appeared in the guise of a Moghol
===================================
REMAINING hundreds of verses HAVE BEEN DELETED BY ADMIN. REFER TO THE LINK IN THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE ABOVE FOR THE TRANSLATION.
ADMIN
======================================
Scriptural Study
I would like to share my after thoughts from this discussion as under.
This is another case were information and insights from other traditions serve to illuminate our traditions - a strength of pluaralism. I think scholarship in our institutions has not really dealt with this subject in a very rigorous manner and may be required if we are to understand and bring forward our Ginanic tradition in a new light. The understanding of the concepts behind Yugas for example is important in this context. Other traditions have done extensive and intensive research in this field primarily because it deals with their own tradition i.e Hinduism.
This kind of research which is primarily based on scriptures has to have a different approach than purely a scholarly/literal analysis of the information. Scriptures are works of art and their primary objective is not to convey historical information though they may be based upon legitimate historical data, rather their underlying intent is to project a vision or certain fundamental teachings couching the historical data ingeniously to give an allegorical representation facilitating multiple possibilities of interpretation. When attempts are made to literally interprete the scriptures, gross distortions such as individuals living for centuries are made.
The approach that is required for this kind of work is to be in tune with the underlying intent of the artist. In my opinion, it is only the sages or elevated souls who can be in tune with the mind of the scriptures and they are the best qualified persons to be able to interprete them and provide a meaningful and coherant understanding of them. I made references to Swami Sri Yukteswar and his disciple Paramahansa Yogananda who have spent extensive periods in their lives expounding, reflecting upon, and debating the various aspects of the Hindu scriptures including the Mahabharata. They would be the most qualified people for this issue. I have used their knowledge and insights combining with the insights of our Pirs to derive an understanding of the Ginanic issues and indeed all the scriptures.
As a by product, this discussion also brought out the fact the the Murshid does not allow his devoted murids to stray into oblivion. He does intervene at the right moment. This is alluded to by the appearance of Budh Avataar to save the Pandavs at the critical moment.
This is another case were information and insights from other traditions serve to illuminate our traditions - a strength of pluaralism. I think scholarship in our institutions has not really dealt with this subject in a very rigorous manner and may be required if we are to understand and bring forward our Ginanic tradition in a new light. The understanding of the concepts behind Yugas for example is important in this context. Other traditions have done extensive and intensive research in this field primarily because it deals with their own tradition i.e Hinduism.
This kind of research which is primarily based on scriptures has to have a different approach than purely a scholarly/literal analysis of the information. Scriptures are works of art and their primary objective is not to convey historical information though they may be based upon legitimate historical data, rather their underlying intent is to project a vision or certain fundamental teachings couching the historical data ingeniously to give an allegorical representation facilitating multiple possibilities of interpretation. When attempts are made to literally interprete the scriptures, gross distortions such as individuals living for centuries are made.
The approach that is required for this kind of work is to be in tune with the underlying intent of the artist. In my opinion, it is only the sages or elevated souls who can be in tune with the mind of the scriptures and they are the best qualified persons to be able to interprete them and provide a meaningful and coherant understanding of them. I made references to Swami Sri Yukteswar and his disciple Paramahansa Yogananda who have spent extensive periods in their lives expounding, reflecting upon, and debating the various aspects of the Hindu scriptures including the Mahabharata. They would be the most qualified people for this issue. I have used their knowledge and insights combining with the insights of our Pirs to derive an understanding of the Ginanic issues and indeed all the scriptures.
As a by product, this discussion also brought out the fact the the Murshid does not allow his devoted murids to stray into oblivion. He does intervene at the right moment. This is alluded to by the appearance of Budh Avataar to save the Pandavs at the critical moment.
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
I think this might help you
<P>Ya Ali Madad</P><P>hello every o­ne<BR>well .. i read all of your comments n posts <BR>which shows that most of the pplz posting here are ismailies from Africa or Sub Continent<BR>but if we talk about ismailies<BR>ismailies not o­nly live in these places<BR>ismailies are also in Yeman, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria and many other countires<BR>but what ever here we are considering as that ismailies are o­nly in sub continenet<BR>well according to my knowledge n understanding <BR>what ever we have in our teachings about Hindu religion or mythology <BR>was all just for the purpose of making hindus ismailies muslims<BR><BR>cuz according to our religion islam, Islam was the first and the last and the o­ne religion but humans miss understood , miss interpreted the information after the guider (Rasool/Awtar/Paigumber)<BR><BR>that do not mean k wut ever said is rong<BR>but we need to know n study that when what info is given to us via ginan<BR>and what was the purpose of the PIR to write that ginan along with historical back grounds of it.<BR><BR>all we have in ginans is just a sort of psycologial attempt by our pirs that<BR>they just cant give hindus a complete new religion and say k hinduism is rong or not good<BR>so they took things from hinduisum and tried to ressemble things from islam n ismailisum. and then they gave those things to those hindus so they can easily digest it and get converted.<BR><BR>its same as a new born kid is taught about things in life<BR>as if that hardly 1 year kid try to put his hand in fire or ask for something which is not good for him or do not sleep at night mom says k sleep babay if u wont Eveil will eat u up.(Baba / Bhaooooo aa k tum ko kha jai ga.)<BR><BR>i hope i have made my point clear<BR><BR>Please Feel Free For Any Questions /Corespondance and do not hessitate to contcat me at<BR><BR>Thank You<BR><BR>Nurali Barkatali<BR>Email: <A href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A> <BR>MSN : <A href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A><BR>Cell: 92-300-2199037<BR><BR>Note : what ever i have stated above is totally based o­n my understanding and study of ismailisum , islam and hinduisum. I just do not want to hurt anyones feelings and Faith and Belive. If happen so I m sorry for that. and also parden me for my bad english. <BR></P>
For those who still think that ginans were to convert from Hinduism and there is nothing more, they have a long way to go. If this was the case, our Imam would not say that that ginans are for children yet to be born because as you know all the children are born Muslims.
And think where Islam started from? Did it start only in the Time our Holy prophet [PBUH]? did it start earlier. Where was Islam in the early times?
Also ponder this, how would you feel if you were told that the passages and acceptance of Adam in the Quran and the other biblical prophets was only to convert Jews and Christians to Islam..
And think where Islam started from? Did it start only in the Time our Holy prophet [PBUH]? did it start earlier. Where was Islam in the early times?
Also ponder this, how would you feel if you were told that the passages and acceptance of Adam in the Quran and the other biblical prophets was only to convert Jews and Christians to Islam..
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
a bit clearification
hello friend
you are right as far as ginans are concerned
my point was which i may wudnt be able to clearyfy
is that ginans were used as the tool to convert hindus to muslims (ismailies) and there is a lot of hindu myths in it leading to the revelation of Imam.
ginans are not at all only used for converstion
but it was the way in which Islam (ismailisum) was taught to hindus
and this is why these are of real worth for babies in woom tooo.
this has been also proved by science that the kid start learning at the age of 3 month (out of nine months in mother's woom). and this is why it is recommanded that a mother (about to conceive a child) should be kept in a real refreshing and tense free environment.
and if ginans and farmen are practiced to a mother at this stage the kid will learn these from the very initial of his/her creation.
my point was that we have to study ginan in depth that what were the reason place where ginans were said my our pirs. and then need to research and conclude those things which are in ISLAM and Hazir Imam's Faramin.
there is a Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah
"Follow The Faramin Of Present Imam."
(by quoting this farman i m no way negating any farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah infect i simply means that to understand ginan as well as farman we have to work a lot not only take them as words but need to find the meaning in these words).
and Mowlana Hazir Imam as well Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah in many faramins have focused to LEARN Philosophy as this would help you understand Reality of Life and Religion.
wut my understanding is k its ok that we have studied these hindu myths and its really good that we have its knowledge but we only need these myths or hindu belives till we need to understand the psychology of the period when the ginans were written.
Islam was the only religion from day one of the exsistance. and yes u have said it real correctly that
"Also ponder this, how would you feel if you were told that the passages and acceptance of Adam in the Quran and the other biblical prophets was only to convert Jews and Christians to Islam.."
thank you and ya ali madad
Nurali Barkatali
03002199037
you are right as far as ginans are concerned
my point was which i may wudnt be able to clearyfy
is that ginans were used as the tool to convert hindus to muslims (ismailies) and there is a lot of hindu myths in it leading to the revelation of Imam.
ginans are not at all only used for converstion
but it was the way in which Islam (ismailisum) was taught to hindus
and this is why these are of real worth for babies in woom tooo.
this has been also proved by science that the kid start learning at the age of 3 month (out of nine months in mother's woom). and this is why it is recommanded that a mother (about to conceive a child) should be kept in a real refreshing and tense free environment.
and if ginans and farmen are practiced to a mother at this stage the kid will learn these from the very initial of his/her creation.
my point was that we have to study ginan in depth that what were the reason place where ginans were said my our pirs. and then need to research and conclude those things which are in ISLAM and Hazir Imam's Faramin.
there is a Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah
"Follow The Faramin Of Present Imam."
(by quoting this farman i m no way negating any farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah infect i simply means that to understand ginan as well as farman we have to work a lot not only take them as words but need to find the meaning in these words).
and Mowlana Hazir Imam as well Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah in many faramins have focused to LEARN Philosophy as this would help you understand Reality of Life and Religion.
wut my understanding is k its ok that we have studied these hindu myths and its really good that we have its knowledge but we only need these myths or hindu belives till we need to understand the psychology of the period when the ginans were written.
Islam was the only religion from day one of the exsistance. and yes u have said it real correctly that
"Also ponder this, how would you feel if you were told that the passages and acceptance of Adam in the Quran and the other biblical prophets was only to convert Jews and Christians to Islam.."
thank you and ya ali madad
Nurali Barkatali
03002199037