YAM
When we are seeking forgiveness and taking chhantas, is Imam praying for us to Allah for forgiveness of our sins or is Imam actually forgiving us right there and then.
Its interesting because many people have different interpretations but i personally feel nothing can be clearer than the phrase 'Imam Bakshay'. Imam is forgiving us and we will not be quesitoned about those sins on the day of judgement.
If you do it with your heart and soul you feel as if a burden has been lifted from your shoulders provided you make a covenant with Imam that those wrong doings will never be repeated.
Just want to know what you all think
Dua Karaavi & Chhanta Ceremony - Who Forgives Sins?
Re: Dua Karaavi & Chhanta Ceremony - Who Forgives Sins?
There is an Esoteric God and an Exoteric God. Mine is an Esoteric God explained as follows and, you may have your own approach to God!ZAly wrote:YAM
When we are seeking forgiveness and taking chhantas, is Imam praying for us to Allah for forgiveness of our sins or is Imam actually forgiving us right there and then.
Its interesting because many people have different interpretations but i personally feel nothing can be clearer than the phrase 'Imam Bakshay'. Imam is forgiving us and we will not be quesitoned about those sins on the day of judgement.
If you do it with your heart and soul you feel as if a burden has been lifted from your shoulders provided you make a covenant with Imam that those wrong doings will never be repeated.
Just want to know what you all think
Imam & Allah are NAMES and the Divine has many NAMES [Holy Quran 17:110].
One prays to the ESSENCE (dzhat) which is the Noor and calls it by many NAMES , e.g example Allah, Ali, Bhagvan, Jesus, etc. All believers pray to this essence or Noor and associate it by Names and these NAMES merge into a single Consciousness in marifat.
For the shias the NAMES are the Imams and it is the Imams who is the Forgiver of all sins and holds key to Paradise. None is forgiven unless the heart & actions are pure:
They (i.e. the Imams) are, by God, the Light [Noor] that He has sent down (HQ 64:8; 61:8; 39:69), and they, by God, are the Light of God in the heavens and the earth (24:36).
utam sab kahee-e zaatee
or bhae sab naam seefaatee
The most exalted NAME is the essence; the rest are all it's forms.[Pir Sadardin, Buj Nirinjan Part 3]
Eji Noor thi Nooraj pragatiya,
Teno vas che Nooraj mahain,
Tene aa Satpa(n)th peda kidha,
Khoji kadiyo Kuran mahain.
The Noor in the Imam of the Time is the same that was the cause of creation and really is from the very Noor you have been given the Satpanth, nay, even the Quran originated from that Noor. [Part 7, SYED IMAM SHAH, MOMIN CHETAMANI]
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prince_visram
Dua Karavi is mentioned in our Ginans so it must have been prescribed by our Pirs. There is a good book 'Practices and Ceremonies' by Alwaez/alwaeza Kamaluddin/Zarina. Following are translations of verses of Ginans on Dua Karavi given in the book.prince_visram wrote:Just posting in this section so I don't have to start a new one..
Well, I wanted to know who perscribed the dua karavi we do every day in Jamat Khana. Was it a Pir or was it the Imam of the time? Any information on this would be appriciated. Thanks! PrinceVisram
"Those who perform the ceremony of dua karravi in Jamatkhana should look into the eyes of the Mukhi, and the Mukhi in turn look at him, then only will a momin gain the full reward of the Dua."
"O brother! Place a small coin in the hands of the gat (jamaat), and stand up in the presence of the gat jamaat with folded hands."
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prince_visram
Thank you very much! I actually do own these books upon your recommendation somewhere else on the forums. I should have known to check there first!kmaherali wrote:Dua Karavi is mentioned in our Ginans so it must have been prescribed by our Pirs. There is a good book 'Practices and Ceremonies' by Alwaez/alwaeza Kamaluddin/Zarina. Following are translations of verses of Ginans on Dua Karavi given in the book.prince_visram wrote:Just posting in this section so I don't have to start a new one..
Well, I wanted to know who perscribed the dua karavi we do every day in Jamat Khana. Was it a Pir or was it the Imam of the time? Any information on this would be appriciated. Thanks! PrinceVisram
"Those who perform the ceremony of dua karravi in Jamatkhana should look into the eyes of the Mukhi, and the Mukhi in turn look at him, then only will a momin gain the full reward of the Dua."
"O brother! Place a small coin in the hands of the gat (jamaat), and stand up in the presence of the gat jamaat with folded hands."
Thanks!-
prince_visram
Is it a audio in Hindi? If so, a quick google search found me this site:bcmsia wrote:Thanks for the information. Would you happen to know where I could find Ismaili Tariqah Part 1 by Abu Aly? I have Part 2 and would love to get Part 1.
http [edited by Admin: no redirection to selling anything on this site, just do the search on a search engine if you want]
I have never purchased anything from there though...
It's a book written in English. I haven't been able to find it, which is why I asked. Thanks for your search though. I appreciate it.
His waez are great, but difficult for me to fully understand, since neither Hindi nor Gujrati is my native language (and because I'm "americanized"
). That's why I would love to have his English books.
His waez are great, but difficult for me to fully understand, since neither Hindi nor Gujrati is my native language (and because I'm "americanized"
). That's why I would love to have his English books.-
prince_visram
Me too. I am quite rough when it comes to Gujarati and Urdu, because I guess you can also consider me "Americanized". I was born and have liveds in Ontario all my life so I guess I can blame that.. ! But, because of this reason, i have encouraged myself to buy a book of the net to learn Gujarati and I think I am doing quite well so far.. I can actually read some of the titles at the literature counters in Khane.bcmsia wrote:It's a book written in English. I haven't been able to find it, which is why I asked. Thanks for your search though. I appreciate it.
His waez are great, but difficult for me to fully understand, since neither Hindi nor Gujrati is my native language (and because I'm "americanized"
However, back to what we were supposed to be talking about, I have no idea where you would be able to find the book , but I will check if anyone in my nearby family would have it.
PS. Sorry Admin I didn't know no links to stores were allowed.. Will keep
in mind for next time!
In the Chanta and Du'a Karavi ceremonies, it is both God and the Imam who forgive sins.
When a murid commits a sin , he automatically sins against the Imam because whenever you disobey the Imam you are going against the bay'ah and thus sinning against the Imam.
When a murid commits a sin against his own soul, he is also sinning against the Imam by virtue of the permanent spiritual bond between the soul of the murid and the soul of the Imam.
Therefore, the murid must seek the Imam's forgiveness of his sins. The Qur'an in several verses also commands the Prophet to forgive the faithful believers and to treat them with mercy (rahma).
When the murid commits a sin against God, it is necessary as per Quran 4:64 and other verses for him to approach the Prophet (and the Imam after him) and seek God's forgiveness and then the Prophet (Imam) will pray for God to forgive that person.
So in the first case, the Imam forgives the murid and in the second case the Imam interceeds for the murid before God.
When a murid commits a sin , he automatically sins against the Imam because whenever you disobey the Imam you are going against the bay'ah and thus sinning against the Imam.
When a murid commits a sin against his own soul, he is also sinning against the Imam by virtue of the permanent spiritual bond between the soul of the murid and the soul of the Imam.
Therefore, the murid must seek the Imam's forgiveness of his sins. The Qur'an in several verses also commands the Prophet to forgive the faithful believers and to treat them with mercy (rahma).
When the murid commits a sin against God, it is necessary as per Quran 4:64 and other verses for him to approach the Prophet (and the Imam after him) and seek God's forgiveness and then the Prophet (Imam) will pray for God to forgive that person.
So in the first case, the Imam forgives the murid and in the second case the Imam interceeds for the murid before God.
I have a question on Dua Karavi.
I am a Mukhi of PBS and have noticed people duing du'a for muskil asan for the jamat/ismailis.
I have also noticed people doing Du'a and chanta, in all majlis's, for Ruhani and for those members who have not attended JK. Also, noticed is Jamati Mukhi doing muskil asan Du'a karavi for the jamat.
My question is how far is it correct ? I thought Dua karavi is an individual thing and for muskil asan of the jamat should be through individual tasbih's.
Can somebody explain whether I am thinking correctly
I am a Mukhi of PBS and have noticed people duing du'a for muskil asan for the jamat/ismailis.
I have also noticed people doing Du'a and chanta, in all majlis's, for Ruhani and for those members who have not attended JK. Also, noticed is Jamati Mukhi doing muskil asan Du'a karavi for the jamat.
My question is how far is it correct ? I thought Dua karavi is an individual thing and for muskil asan of the jamat should be through individual tasbih's.
Can somebody explain whether I am thinking correctly
In Dua Karawi you are holding the hand of the Imam. Why not pray for others and get more benefit. MSMS made the following Farman about praying for others first:Firukurji wrote: My question is how far is it correct ? I thought Dua karavi is an individual thing and for muskil asan of the jamat should be through individual tasbih's.
Can somebody explain whether I am thinking correctly
"And while partaking of ab-e-shifa if you pray for your own betterment there will be great benefit. (But) one who prays for his brethren rather than for himself only, benefits more" (Zanzibar, 7-9-1899)
I agree that praying for others is better.
But I vaguely remember one farman where Sultan Mohamed Shah or Hazar Imam said that if you do not have problems than do not do Sataro, but express gratification.
Similar, if somebody prays for Muskil asan twice a day, don't you think the same principle would apply, I would think that person is in a lot of problem and should look for other ways for Mushkil asan.
But I vaguely remember one farman where Sultan Mohamed Shah or Hazar Imam said that if you do not have problems than do not do Sataro, but express gratification.
Similar, if somebody prays for Muskil asan twice a day, don't you think the same principle would apply, I would think that person is in a lot of problem and should look for other ways for Mushkil asan.
In my opinion Mushkil Asan is different than Satado. We confront Mushkil almost all the time in our individual lives and hence the need of continuous spiritual support.Firukurji wrote:I agree that praying for others is better.
Similar, if somebody prays for Muskil asan twice a day, don't you think the same principle would apply, I would think that person is in a lot of problem and should look for other ways for Mushkil asan.
Satado is for something major and life threatening which does not happen all the time in an individuals life or a particular Jamati situation.
As a Mukhi are you raising this issue because of the extra time involved? If the Jamat is large then these extras would add to the time and hence perhaps Duas for Mushkil Asaan can be substituted by extra tasbihs for example.Firukurji wrote:I am a Mukhi of PBS and have noticed people duing du'a for muskil asan for the jamat/ismailis.
I have also noticed people doing Du'a and chanta, in all majlis's, for Ruhani and for those members who have not attended JK. Also, noticed is Jamati Mukhi doing muskil asan Du'a karavi for the jamat.
No the idea is not to save time.
My understanding of Du'a karavi is that you go for the forgiveness of YOUR sins. Du'a Karavi is more of a personal thing and not where you pray on behalf of other Ismailis. Praying for others could be done by reciting tastis individually, which explains we say Tasbih Karan wareji kul mushkil asan kar.
I also vaguely remember in one waez of late Abu Aly that the Imam has said to receit Pir Shah tasbih for all the jamat's. I do not think there is mention by the Imam, that praying for the Jamat can be done by Du'a Karavi.
For Mushkil asan of all murids the Imam also established Jamati satado. The main purpose of Satado is for Mushkil asan, I think.
My understanding of Du'a karavi is that you go for the forgiveness of YOUR sins. Du'a Karavi is more of a personal thing and not where you pray on behalf of other Ismailis. Praying for others could be done by reciting tastis individually, which explains we say Tasbih Karan wareji kul mushkil asan kar.
I also vaguely remember in one waez of late Abu Aly that the Imam has said to receit Pir Shah tasbih for all the jamat's. I do not think there is mention by the Imam, that praying for the Jamat can be done by Du'a Karavi.
For Mushkil asan of all murids the Imam also established Jamati satado. The main purpose of Satado is for Mushkil asan, I think.
There are related threads at:
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http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hlight=dua karaavi
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