Thanks admin for sharing interesting and informative article.
I would like to add few points. It is Pir of the time, who introduces or make changes in dua and other rites and ceremonies.
According to Abu Aly (source: Ismaili Tariqah Vol 2) Pir Aga Ali Shah used to attend the jamat khanas on regular basis. He added two tasbeehs of 14 beads each in our holy dua. These were 14 times Ya Ali and 14 times Salwat. Later Pir Aga Shahbuddin Shah made changes in Dua. Sultan Mohamed Shah also made changes in dua. On 16th Sept, 1899 He told the jamat in Zanzibar that he had to remind them that the changes He made in the customs and ceremonies were made because He was their Pir.
More discussions on Pir and Piratan
I think Shah Karim also was already Pir in 1956.
The basis for my thinking is that yes the Pir introduces the new Du'a and we know it was brought in 1956 for the first time in Madagascar by Shah Karim while Sultan Muhammad Shah was our Imam but more then that, I found in our archive a Farman made by Shah Karim in 1956 [yes 1956], starting by the word "My beloved Grand fathers' "spiritual children" and surprise: ending with Shah Karim saying "Khanavadan".
Now since we do not have a policy to post Farmans here, you just have to trust me on this...
...up to the time it becomes available to the Jamat, miracles do happen, don't they?
In any case, this is not the subject of the thread and this is just for info, not for controversies.
The basis for my thinking is that yes the Pir introduces the new Du'a and we know it was brought in 1956 for the first time in Madagascar by Shah Karim while Sultan Muhammad Shah was our Imam but more then that, I found in our archive a Farman made by Shah Karim in 1956 [yes 1956], starting by the word "My beloved Grand fathers' "spiritual children" and surprise: ending with Shah Karim saying "Khanavadan".
Now since we do not have a policy to post Farmans here, you just have to trust me on this...
...up to the time it becomes available to the Jamat, miracles do happen, don't they?
In any case, this is not the subject of the thread and this is just for info, not for controversies.
MSMS sent members of Nurani family to perform various activities and functions related to the office of Piratan. For example Prince Alykhan gave BOL. He however did not make it obvious that anyone of his sons or grandsons was a Pir. In fact in one of his talika messages he states: "In our family the Imamat usually has been given to a Pir as a successor and at present, there is no independent Pir. I myself am holding this position."Admin wrote:I think Shah Karim also was already Pir in 1956.
In another talika message he stated: "I send you my most beloved grandsons, Princes Karim and Amyn, who will give you my most loving blessings. On my behalf they will perform religious ceremonies. They will also introduce the new Council's system."
In my opinion at present all the members of Nurani family (MHI's sons and daughter) are 'qualified' to function in the role of Piratan temporarily. As MHI gets busier in his work, it would not surprise me if his children performed religious ceremonies on his behalf.
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samirnoorali
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:18 pm
Regarding the Office of Piratan
Regarding the Office of Piratan
By Samir Noorali
The concept of Piratan is an intuition clouded in misunderstanding due to its relative absence in Islamic thought and its eradication in contemporary history. Piratan is an office which cannot, in relation to Imamat, be given to any person who does not hold the personage of the Prophet Mohamed.
According to my interpretation of events Abu Talib the father of Ali ibn Abu Talib, who in many historical accounts was seen as a positive character and comforter of Mohamed in his early days, was more than just a mere figure whose support elevated the cause of Islam.
Although Imamat as an institution was established foremost in Arabia, the concept of leadership took on many different names and titles throughout history. The Jewish office of Cohen and the Christian office of Cephas or papacy was nothing new amongst the monotheistic religions before the advent of Mohamed.
Although, according to Shia Islam Ali was declared Imam by Mohamed to lead the Muslim population in both secular and religious matters, I would go a little deeper into suggesting that Imamat was already established prior to Ali's birth.
Abu Talib being the father of Ali and the uncle of Mohamed has been characterized as an insignificant figure in most historical accounts. My interpretation would suggest that Abu Talib was the descendant of the Cohen and Cephas office due to his blood relations to Simon Peter and Aaron.
If that is the case, the title of Cohen, Cephas, and Imam are all exactly the same office which took place at three points in time. Accordingly, that would make Abu Talib the descendant of Simon Peter and the rightful heir to the papacy. Due to the conflict between Saint Paul and Peter this history has been carefully eroded.
History is the hands of people who write it. It is possible that events can get tarnished and misunderstandings can occur. I like to look at it like a crime scene whose bits and pieces have to be put together in order to make sense of what happened.
If Abu Talib was Imam then the entire interpretation of events that occurred in Islam would have to be re-written. That means that Abu Talib was the Imam of the time and he appointed Mohamed to carry out the mission of spreading monotheism in Arabia just as his ancestors did with Judaism and Christianity.
When Abu Talib died Ali became his successor and so he aided the office of prophet hood in spreading monotheism. Both had different roles, with a stipulation that the Imamat was hereditary from father to an immediate male successor and that the prophet hood would continue after Mohamed's death but be appointed by the Imam through the same blood line.
Therefore the office of prophet hood did not stop at the death of Mohamed as is popularly understood, but rather the necessity for perpetual guidance for newer generations was necessary so that the faith can move into modern times and can adapt to modern situations.
Piratan is a term used in Shia Imami interpretation of Islam to signify the office of Mohamed or prophet hood. So to make it clear Ali was the Imam and Mohamed was the Pir of the time. After the death of Mohamed his grandson Hasan took the office and became the second Muslim Pir. After the death of Ali his son Hussein, the brother of Hassan, took the office of Imamat.
The part where history tends to get sticky is that my interpretation is suggesting that Ali and Hussein is the same person and that Mohamed and Hasan are the same person. If that is the case then there are two bodies and one soul living at the exact same moment in time. That is a concept I will expand into sometime later.
These concepts are very difficult to understand because there is hardly anyone who can come up with viable answers, but with that in mind the sanctity of the Piratan office cannot be given to any other than Mohammed himself and his successors. It would go further into saying that the successors of Imamat are the manifestations of the same person of Ali and the successors of Piratan are the manifestations of the same person of Mohammed.
Therefore Ali and Mohammed were the same person in two different bodies on a mission intervene in human affairs for the understanding of true monotheism. If that is the case, let me warn you that it is very difficult to understand that concept, but necessary in answering the question of Piratan.
Piratan is the manifestation of Mohammed and no person other than he can claim that office. Figures in history such as Pir Satgur Noor, Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin, Pir Hasan Kabiradin, all publicly admitted to being Mohamed himself.
Some will claim that Imams have from time to time given titles of Pir to people or books, but these were, if any, mere titles of symbolic nature, not to get confused with the office itself.
Imamat can only declare the office of Piratan. No person can claim to be a Pir in the Shia Imami Ismaili sense, other than the bearer of the soul of Mohamed.
By Samir Noorali
The concept of Piratan is an intuition clouded in misunderstanding due to its relative absence in Islamic thought and its eradication in contemporary history. Piratan is an office which cannot, in relation to Imamat, be given to any person who does not hold the personage of the Prophet Mohamed.
According to my interpretation of events Abu Talib the father of Ali ibn Abu Talib, who in many historical accounts was seen as a positive character and comforter of Mohamed in his early days, was more than just a mere figure whose support elevated the cause of Islam.
Although Imamat as an institution was established foremost in Arabia, the concept of leadership took on many different names and titles throughout history. The Jewish office of Cohen and the Christian office of Cephas or papacy was nothing new amongst the monotheistic religions before the advent of Mohamed.
Although, according to Shia Islam Ali was declared Imam by Mohamed to lead the Muslim population in both secular and religious matters, I would go a little deeper into suggesting that Imamat was already established prior to Ali's birth.
Abu Talib being the father of Ali and the uncle of Mohamed has been characterized as an insignificant figure in most historical accounts. My interpretation would suggest that Abu Talib was the descendant of the Cohen and Cephas office due to his blood relations to Simon Peter and Aaron.
If that is the case, the title of Cohen, Cephas, and Imam are all exactly the same office which took place at three points in time. Accordingly, that would make Abu Talib the descendant of Simon Peter and the rightful heir to the papacy. Due to the conflict between Saint Paul and Peter this history has been carefully eroded.
History is the hands of people who write it. It is possible that events can get tarnished and misunderstandings can occur. I like to look at it like a crime scene whose bits and pieces have to be put together in order to make sense of what happened.
If Abu Talib was Imam then the entire interpretation of events that occurred in Islam would have to be re-written. That means that Abu Talib was the Imam of the time and he appointed Mohamed to carry out the mission of spreading monotheism in Arabia just as his ancestors did with Judaism and Christianity.
When Abu Talib died Ali became his successor and so he aided the office of prophet hood in spreading monotheism. Both had different roles, with a stipulation that the Imamat was hereditary from father to an immediate male successor and that the prophet hood would continue after Mohamed's death but be appointed by the Imam through the same blood line.
Therefore the office of prophet hood did not stop at the death of Mohamed as is popularly understood, but rather the necessity for perpetual guidance for newer generations was necessary so that the faith can move into modern times and can adapt to modern situations.
Piratan is a term used in Shia Imami interpretation of Islam to signify the office of Mohamed or prophet hood. So to make it clear Ali was the Imam and Mohamed was the Pir of the time. After the death of Mohamed his grandson Hasan took the office and became the second Muslim Pir. After the death of Ali his son Hussein, the brother of Hassan, took the office of Imamat.
The part where history tends to get sticky is that my interpretation is suggesting that Ali and Hussein is the same person and that Mohamed and Hasan are the same person. If that is the case then there are two bodies and one soul living at the exact same moment in time. That is a concept I will expand into sometime later.
These concepts are very difficult to understand because there is hardly anyone who can come up with viable answers, but with that in mind the sanctity of the Piratan office cannot be given to any other than Mohammed himself and his successors. It would go further into saying that the successors of Imamat are the manifestations of the same person of Ali and the successors of Piratan are the manifestations of the same person of Mohammed.
Therefore Ali and Mohammed were the same person in two different bodies on a mission intervene in human affairs for the understanding of true monotheism. If that is the case, let me warn you that it is very difficult to understand that concept, but necessary in answering the question of Piratan.
Piratan is the manifestation of Mohammed and no person other than he can claim that office. Figures in history such as Pir Satgur Noor, Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin, Pir Hasan Kabiradin, all publicly admitted to being Mohamed himself.
Some will claim that Imams have from time to time given titles of Pir to people or books, but these were, if any, mere titles of symbolic nature, not to get confused with the office itself.
Imamat can only declare the office of Piratan. No person can claim to be a Pir in the Shia Imami Ismaili sense, other than the bearer of the soul of Mohamed.
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Justaguest
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:18 am
- Location: Sweden
Re: Regarding the Office of Piratan
Dear Sir,samirnoorali wrote:Regarding the Office of Piratan
By Samir Noorali
"...........................................................................................
..........................................................................................
The part where history tends to get sticky is that my interpretation is suggesting that Ali and Hussein is the same person and that Mohamed and Hasan are the same person. If that is the case then there are two bodies and one soul living at the exact same moment in time. That is a concept I will expand into sometime later.
These concepts are very difficult to understand because there is hardly anyone who can come up with viable answers, but with that in mind the sanctity of the Piratan office cannot be given to any other than Mohammed himself and his successors."
I would like to say only this to your seemingly self-merited interpretation
" Yes the concepts are -as they always are when interpretation of
religions is concerned - but, the answers are there and they are
supplied by the Imam of the Time, the interpretaions of all the concepts
and the works are supplied by the Imam of the Time.
Guessing, like you seem to have done is of no value.
Moreover, it is the Imam who chooses to bestow Piratan on anyone
He chooses to.
That is my understanding from the contemporary teachings that
I have been privy to during my childhood and youth.
In order to establish correct link of relationship one can even
go back to ADAM and say that we all are his decendants and
therefore related.... etc.. and are legitimate candidates to become
Pir. Moreover, how did Pir Sabzali qualify to become a Pir?
Piratan (in my opinion) is not an OFFICE. It is a status.
But, there can be an "OFFICE or OFFICES" belonging to a Pir
to which (in my opinion) one may address as the Office of Piratan.
Piratan is a "Spiritual Status Granted" accompanied by a visible
recognition in form of a title "PIR" to be added as a prefix
to the person's name.
Indeed this is a very interesting topic, but being twisted a bit.
I don't think we should go heavily in debate on this.
But perhaps leave it to Mowlana Hazar Imam and scholars
appointed by him to give us his interpretation through
the Tariq Board.
However, one can always speculate and come up with hundreds
of theories.
Thank you.
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Re: Regarding the Office of Piratan
Ya Ali Madad,Justaguest wrote:Dear Sir,samirnoorali wrote:Regarding the Office of Piratan
By Samir Noorali
"...........................................................................................
..........................................................................................
The part where history tends to get sticky is that my interpretation is suggesting that Ali and Hussein is the same person and that Mohamed and Hasan are the same person. If that is the case then there are two bodies and one soul living at the exact same moment in time. That is a concept I will expand into sometime later.
These concepts are very difficult to understand because there is hardly anyone who can come up with viable answers, but with that in mind the sanctity of the Piratan office cannot be given to any other than Mohammed himself and his successors."
I would like to say only this to your seemingly self-merited interpretation
" Yes the concepts are -as they always are when interpretation of
religions is concerned - but, the answers are there and they are
supplied by the Imam of the Time, the interpretaions of all the concepts
and the works are supplied by the Imam of the Time.
Guessing, like you seem to have done is of no value.
Moreover, it is the Imam who chooses to bestow Piratan on anyone
He chooses to.
That is my understanding from the contemporary teachings that
I have been privy to during my childhood and youth.
In order to establish correct link of relationship one can even
go back to ADAM and say that we all are his decendants and
therefore related.... etc.. and are legitimate candidates to become
Pir. Moreover, how did Pir Sabzali qualify to become a Pir?
Piratan (in my opinion) is not an OFFICE. It is a status.
But, there can be an "OFFICE or OFFICES" belonging to a Pir
to which (in my opinion) one may address as the Office of Piratan.
Piratan is a "Spiritual Status Granted" accompanied by a visible
recognition in form of a title "PIR" to be added as a prefix
to the person's name.
Indeed this is a very interesting topic, but being twisted a bit.
I don't think we should go heavily in debate on this.
But perhaps leave it to Mowlana Hazar Imam and scholars
appointed by him to give us his interpretation through
the Tariq Board.
However, one can always speculate and come up with hundreds
of theories.
Thank you.
You are mixing the two separate things. Office of Piratan and title of Pirtan both are completely different. Pir SabzAli and Nasir Khusrow were not holding offices of Pir but they were given title of Pir (that was also after their death). Imam is holder of offices of Shah Pir. He Himself is Pir and Imam. You are very correct to say "I don't think we should go heavily in debate on this.But perhaps leave it to Mowlana Hazar Imam "
I would suggest you to read the will of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah. You may also see the old dua in which names of all Pirs are mentioned. You may read "Brief history of Ismailism" to read the history of all Imams and Pirs.
There has been a lot of discussion about this in past. You may search about Pir and post your comments/messages in that particular section.
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Justaguest
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:18 am
- Location: Sweden
Re: Regarding the Office of Piratan
Dear Friend,
......................................................
Indeed this is a very interesting topic, but being twisted a bit.
I don't think we should go heavily in debate on this.
But perhaps leave it to Mowlana Hazar Imam and scholars
appointed by him to give us his interpretation through
the Tariq Board.
However, one can always speculate and come up with hundreds
of theories.
Thank you
Ya Ali Madad,
You are mixing the two separate things. Office of Piratan and title of Pirtan both are completely different. Pir SabzAli and Nasir Khusrow were not holding offices of Pir but they were given title of Pir (that was also after their death). Imam is holder of offices of Shah Pir. He Himself is Pir and Imam. You are very correct to say "I don't think we should go heavily in debate on this.But perhaps leave it to Mowlana Hazar Imam "
I would suggest you to read the will of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah. You may also see the old dua in which names of all Pirs are mentioned. You may read "Brief history of Ismailism" to read the history of all Imams and Pirs.
There has been a lot of discussion about this in past. You may search about Pir and post your comments/messages in that particular section.
Ya Ali Madad.
I do not think that I have mixed up the terms. Rather to the contrary, I have brought up the difference between them them into light, hence you (with your admirable knowledge) could shade more light on it, which - I must say is very valuable and I thank you for it.
The IMAM is the PIR & THE IMAM. It is not an office. It is a STATUS.
I mean, "A spiritual Status". I think we should not argue too much
about this. However, I admire your knowledge.
Thank you for mentioning the "Brief History of Ismailism" and other literature. I have read them. Have a copy of BHofI handy quite often.
Great source of knowledge but not total, with a few misprints.
That is what I have.
I also recommend to you "Islam and the Perenniel Philosophy",
among others.
Thanks for for your comments too. We all learn from each other
everyday.
Best Wishes
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Mowla Ali Madad dear friend,
We often say Pir Imam Shah to address Syed Imam Shah, Pir Nasir Khusrow to Syed Nasir Khusrow and Pir Sabzali etc with respect. In this sense, Piratan can be termed as Status, a title of respect etc.
There is no name of Nasir Khusrow in list of Pirs given in Old Dua. There isn't name of Syed Imam Shah and Pir Sabzali.
Now if you see the book Brief history of Ismailism by AbuAly, in section dealing with history of Pirs, there is history of 50 Pirs. Those Pirs who were either Imam of the time holding this office or some one from the family of Imam and no one from outside the family of Imam. Those Pirs are called as Imam Mustawada. It is not mere status but office.
One very practical example I want to give here is when we say in JK "Gat bakshay Shah Pir bakshay" We are not asking (and we can't even ask) forgiveness from a person who is spiritually advanced but from Hazir Imam who is Shah and Pir.
There is good article of famous scholar Mumtaz Tajudin about concept of Shah Pir (in History of Ismaili flag) in library section of ismaili.net.
Also if you get, see "Ismaili Tariqah" volume 1 and 2 by AbuAly Missionary.
We often say Pir Imam Shah to address Syed Imam Shah, Pir Nasir Khusrow to Syed Nasir Khusrow and Pir Sabzali etc with respect. In this sense, Piratan can be termed as Status, a title of respect etc.
There is no name of Nasir Khusrow in list of Pirs given in Old Dua. There isn't name of Syed Imam Shah and Pir Sabzali.
Now if you see the book Brief history of Ismailism by AbuAly, in section dealing with history of Pirs, there is history of 50 Pirs. Those Pirs who were either Imam of the time holding this office or some one from the family of Imam and no one from outside the family of Imam. Those Pirs are called as Imam Mustawada. It is not mere status but office.
One very practical example I want to give here is when we say in JK "Gat bakshay Shah Pir bakshay" We are not asking (and we can't even ask) forgiveness from a person who is spiritually advanced but from Hazir Imam who is Shah and Pir.
There is good article of famous scholar Mumtaz Tajudin about concept of Shah Pir (in History of Ismaili flag) in library section of ismaili.net.
Also if you get, see "Ismaili Tariqah" volume 1 and 2 by AbuAly Missionary.
What you want to prove ??? Do you Mean Pir Nasir Khusrow and sazali were not pirs ??? should we follow Imam of the time ??? or you star_munir before making any statement go through the faramins made in tajikistan about PIR NASIR KHUSROWstar_munir wrote:Mowla Ali Madad dear friend,
We often say Pir Imam Shah to address Syed Imam Shah, Pir Nasir Khusrow to Syed Nasir Khusrow and Pir Sabzali .
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Justaguest
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:18 am
- Location: Sweden
Dear Admin,Admin wrote:I don't want to see any discussion on this thread about Pirs. This thread is only for the title described on the top
Ya Ali Madad.
I agree with you, and also apologise if it has inconvenienced you in any
way.
I also feel that it is (to my taste) not proper to "SPECULATE" and
comment (as "EXPERTS" as some do here) about what is to
come as far as our prayers are concerned.
I think it is an outright insult to our Imam of the Time, when
people show this kind of arrogance predicting his moves and
(in this case his FIRMAN on what prayers we have to adopt
etc.) his decisions when the time comes.
As murids, we have to follow the Firmans and our Beloved
Imam's guidance and directives.
Filling the forum with redundant "speculations" to fill up the
space only degrades both spiritual & intellectual
standard of that praticular topic/forum.
I promise that i shall abstein from posting anything about
Pirs on THIS forum.
Thank you.
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Dear Just aguest,Justaguest wrote:Dear Admin,Admin wrote:I don't want to see any discussion on this thread about Pirs. This thread is only for the title described on the top
Ya Ali Madad.
I agree with you, and also apologise if it has inconvenienced you in any
way.
I also feel that it is (to my taste) not proper to "SPECULATE" and
comment (as "EXPERTS" as some do here) about what is to
come as far as our prayers are concerned.
I think it is an outright insult to our Imam of the Time, when
people show this kind of arrogance predicting his moves and
(in this case his FIRMAN on what prayers we have to adopt
etc.) his decisions when the time comes.
As murids, we have to follow the Firmans and our Beloved
Imam's guidance and directives.
Filling the forum with redundant "speculations" to fill up the
space only degrades both spiritual & intellectual
standard of that praticular topic/forum.
I promise that i shall abstein from posting anything about
Pirs on THIS forum.
Thank you.
We are here not prediciting what is going to be happen but just claryfying and trying to understand the hidayat given by Imam.
As for Pirs, you can discuss on topic related to Pir in doctrine section of the forum.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Dear yaamf77,yaamf77 wrote:What you want to prove ??? Do you Mean Pir Nasir Khusrow and sazali were not pirs ??? should we follow Imam of the time ??? or you star_munir before making any statement go through the faramins made in tajikistan about PIR NASIR KHUSROWstar_munir wrote:Mowla Ali Madad dear friend,
We often say Pir Imam Shah to address Syed Imam Shah, Pir Nasir Khusrow to Syed Nasir Khusrow and Pir Sabzali .
There is no need to be harsh and rude while commenting in the forum. It is really unethical on your part to question me "Should we follow you or Imam". Before you suggest me any thing to read, I want to suggest you to read my complete post, then you will find out that whatever I have written here is not any theory invented by me but I have given references of books with further references from Farmans of IMAM, Ginans, Old dua etc. Also do read what others have written about Pir in doctrine section and then do post there, if you want to make any comment, argument etc there.
Munirstar_munir wrote:Dear yaamf77,yaamf77 wrote:What you want to prove ??? Do you Mean Pir Nasir Khusrow and sazali were not pirs ??? should we follow Imam of the time ??? or you star_munir before making any statement go through the faramins made in tajikistan about PIR NASIR KHUSROWstar_munir wrote:Mowla Ali Madad dear friend,
We often say Pir Imam Shah to address Syed Imam Shah, Pir Nasir Khusrow to Syed Nasir Khusrow and Pir Sabzali .
There is no need to be harsh and rude while commenting in the forum. It is really unethical on your part to question me "Should we follow you or Imam". Before you suggest me any thing to read, I want to suggest you to read my complete post, then you will find out that whatever I have written here is not any theory invented by me but I have given references of books with further references from Farmans of IMAM, Ginans, Old dua etc. Also do read what others have written about Pir in doctrine section and then do post there, if you want to make any comment, argument etc there.
One has to keep in mind the agenda of the person responding to your post. If you look elsewhere Yaamf77 has posted a number of times in support of Allama Nasiruddin Hunzai. If Yaamf77 and his cabal accept the premise that the Imam Mustawada/Puthiyo Pir/Joma Pir can only be from the Ahle Bayt and can only be appointed by the Imam then that negates their whole argument that Allama Nassiruddin Hunzai is a Pir and puts them in a quandary.
In our Tariqah in titular Pirs are appointed by the Imam and even then only posthumously; yet some people fail to see that.
Shams
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Justaguest
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:18 am
- Location: Sweden
star_munir wrote:Dear Star_Munir,Justaguest wrote:... .Admin wrote:I don't want to see any discussion on this thread about Pirs. This thread is only for the title described on the top
Dear Just aguest,
We are here not prediciting what is going to be happen but just claryfying and trying to understand the hidayat given by Imam.
As for Pirs, you can discuss on topic related to Pir in doctrine section of the forum.
Ya Ali Madad again,
Suit yourself and speculate, discuss, predict ... whatever.
That is between you and the Administrator/Moderators.
As far as I am concerned the Pir topic is a closed
chapter for me. Hope you will not mind calling
it a day on that subject.
Thank you.
[quote="star_munir"]Mowla Ali Madad dear friend,
We often say Pir Imam Shah to address Syed Imam Shah, Pir Nasir Khusrow to Syed Nasir Khusrow and Pir Sabzali etc with respect. In this sense, Piratan can be termed as Status, a title of respect etc.
There is no name of Nasir Khusrow in list of Pirs quote]
Star_munir I think you are not aware of Fatimed period literature and terminology Hujjat and Pir are the same
It is mentioned in PIR NAASIR KHUSRO known well known book "WAJ-E-DIN"(FACE OF DIN)
That there are 12 Hudud in our religion.
1,Mustajeeb
2,MAZOON-E-MEHDOOD
3,MAZOON-E-MUTALIK
4,DAYI MEHDOOD
5,DAYI MUTALIK
6,HUJAT (PIR)
7,BAAB
8,IMAM
9,ASAS
10.NATIQ
11.AQl e Kul
12, Nafs e Kul
An PIR NASIR KHUSRUW was appointed by IMAM Mustansirbillah As HUJAT (PIR) For Khurasan o Badaghshan
Pir e Karmil Rahber e Ma Nasir Khusrow Madad
Dastigari Ma Tui Dar Roze Mashar Ya Imam
Zamana Pir e Kamil Bam Kutub Mer Berkirang Osai
Hainas Kushay Kainatan Bam Kutub Mer Berkirang Osai
[email protected]
We often say Pir Imam Shah to address Syed Imam Shah, Pir Nasir Khusrow to Syed Nasir Khusrow and Pir Sabzali etc with respect. In this sense, Piratan can be termed as Status, a title of respect etc.
There is no name of Nasir Khusrow in list of Pirs quote]
Star_munir I think you are not aware of Fatimed period literature and terminology Hujjat and Pir are the same
It is mentioned in PIR NAASIR KHUSRO known well known book "WAJ-E-DIN"(FACE OF DIN)
That there are 12 Hudud in our religion.
1,Mustajeeb
2,MAZOON-E-MEHDOOD
3,MAZOON-E-MUTALIK
4,DAYI MEHDOOD
5,DAYI MUTALIK
6,HUJAT (PIR)
7,BAAB
8,IMAM
9,ASAS
10.NATIQ
11.AQl e Kul
12, Nafs e Kul
An PIR NASIR KHUSRUW was appointed by IMAM Mustansirbillah As HUJAT (PIR) For Khurasan o Badaghshan
Pir e Karmil Rahber e Ma Nasir Khusrow Madad
Dastigari Ma Tui Dar Roze Mashar Ya Imam
Zamana Pir e Kamil Bam Kutub Mer Berkirang Osai
Hainas Kushay Kainatan Bam Kutub Mer Berkirang Osai
[email protected]
yaamf77 wrote:You're confusing Imam Mustawada and the Titular Pir.star_munir wrote:Mowla Ali Madad dear friend,
We often say Pir Imam Shah to address Syed Imam Shah, Pir Nasir Khusrow to Syed Nasir Khusrow and Pir Sabzali etc with respect. In this sense, Piratan can be termed as Status, a title of respect etc.
There is no name of Nasir Khusrow in list of Pirs quote]
Star_munir I think you are not aware of Fatimed period literature and terminology Hujjat and Pir are the same
It is mentioned in PIR NAASIR KHUSRO known well known book "WAJ-E-DIN"(FACE OF DIN)
That there are 12 Hudud in our religion.
1,Mustajeeb
2,MAZOON-E-MEHDOOD
3,MAZOON-E-MUTALIK
4,DAYI MEHDOOD
5,DAYI MUTALIK
6,HUJAT (PIR)
7,BAAB
8,IMAM
9,ASAS
10.NATIQ
11.AQl e Kul
12, Nafs e Kul
An PIR NASIR KHUSRUW was appointed by IMAM Mustansirbillah As HUJAT (PIR) For Khurasan o Badaghshan
Pir e Karmil Rahber e Ma Nasir Khusrow Madad
Dastigari Ma Tui Dar Roze Mashar Ya Imam
Zamana Pir e Kamil Bam Kutub Mer Berkirang Osai
Hainas Kushay Kainatan Bam Kutub Mer Berkirang Osai
[email protected]
Shams
Imam Mustawda is THE PIR in the sense of Pir Shah Karim, Pir Sadardin...
The confusion is because THE PIR is also called HUJJATUL IMAM, this is not the 12 hujjats which are sent to preach in the 12 Jazirah or 12 parts of the world. There are always 12 companions with the PIR. One of the 12 hujjats sent during that time was Nassir Khusraw, therefore the confusion.
Of course THE PIR as in IMAM MUSTAWDA is unique at all time, He is the epiphany of the Attributes in the same way the Imam is the epiphany of the Essence.
There is already ample discussion in the Forum about this. The list of Imam Mustawda was in the Asal Dua recited up to 1956. Nassir Khusraw is not in the list but he is revered as a great missionary and respected title such as pir is given to him in the same way Rumi is many time referred as Mowlana [but he is not our Imam like Mowlana Ali would be]
For new users please do a search and read on pir and piratan before posting so that you do not do duplicate postings and know already what has been said on the subject.
Admin
The confusion is because THE PIR is also called HUJJATUL IMAM, this is not the 12 hujjats which are sent to preach in the 12 Jazirah or 12 parts of the world. There are always 12 companions with the PIR. One of the 12 hujjats sent during that time was Nassir Khusraw, therefore the confusion.
Of course THE PIR as in IMAM MUSTAWDA is unique at all time, He is the epiphany of the Attributes in the same way the Imam is the epiphany of the Essence.
There is already ample discussion in the Forum about this. The list of Imam Mustawda was in the Asal Dua recited up to 1956. Nassir Khusraw is not in the list but he is revered as a great missionary and respected title such as pir is given to him in the same way Rumi is many time referred as Mowlana [but he is not our Imam like Mowlana Ali would be]
For new users please do a search and read on pir and piratan before posting so that you do not do duplicate postings and know already what has been said on the subject.
Admin