Ya alimadad,
As i am a student of Comerce thats why i know little bit about Biology you all have studied Darwins theory and in das Avataar 1 st avataar is of Fish and According to the Darwins theory A man has passed seven animals or stages like first man was a fish then a lizard then a dinasour then A monkey and in last man so any one can link both and is there any reference of Ginan on this topic or about the creation of man kind..
Waiting for response!
Darwin's theory & Das Avataar
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Aly_shallwani
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:41 am
Darwin's theory & Das Avataar
Last edited by Aly_shallwani on Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Both the Quran and modern science support the theory of evolution. Life originated in the waters, billions of years ago, with the emergence of single-celled organisms. As earthly conditions changed, some species were forced to adapt to such changes, and after large periods of time, this caused mutations within their genetic makeup. Humans are a product of 4 billion years of such evolution. The
Quran states that he created man in stages, from a “clot of blood.”
21:30 – “Do not the unbelievers see that the Heavens and the Earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder and We got every living thing out of the water? Will they then not believe?”
7:11 – “We created you and thereupon We fashioned you…”
82:7-8 – “God is the One who created you, then fashioned you harmoniously and in due proportion; into whatsoever from He willed He made you out of components.”
95:4 – “We created Man according to the best organizational plan.”
71:14 – “He created you in stages…”
76:28 – “Verily We created them and strengthened all of them. And when We willed, We replaced them completely by people who were of the same kind.”
6:133 – “If God wills, He destroys you and in your place appoints whom He wills as successors, just as He brought you forth from the posterity of other people.”
The stories of the Ten Avatars, greatly revered by Hindu’s, and glorified by the Holy Pirs, are allegorical and symbolic stories that illustrate the evolution of man. Throughout the billions of years of evolution, the Divine Light (Noor) has assumed countless manifestations in every age as the higest form of evolved life.
Regarding the concept of Avatars professed by Hindus, Shah Abdul-Aziz, a prominent Sufi Alim of his time (1746-1823) wrote that:
“To conclude, we may say that the Avatars of the Hindus were manifestations of the Reality, whether they were in the form of human beings, or in the formal of an animal – like a lion or a fish. Such Avatars were very much similar to the staff of Moses or the she-camel of Salih. In the process of time, however, the ignorant among the Hindus, because of their inability to distinguish the real and the manifest, regarding everyone of them as the real God and thus went astray.”
Quran states that he created man in stages, from a “clot of blood.”
21:30 – “Do not the unbelievers see that the Heavens and the Earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder and We got every living thing out of the water? Will they then not believe?”
7:11 – “We created you and thereupon We fashioned you…”
82:7-8 – “God is the One who created you, then fashioned you harmoniously and in due proportion; into whatsoever from He willed He made you out of components.”
95:4 – “We created Man according to the best organizational plan.”
71:14 – “He created you in stages…”
76:28 – “Verily We created them and strengthened all of them. And when We willed, We replaced them completely by people who were of the same kind.”
6:133 – “If God wills, He destroys you and in your place appoints whom He wills as successors, just as He brought you forth from the posterity of other people.”
The stories of the Ten Avatars, greatly revered by Hindu’s, and glorified by the Holy Pirs, are allegorical and symbolic stories that illustrate the evolution of man. Throughout the billions of years of evolution, the Divine Light (Noor) has assumed countless manifestations in every age as the higest form of evolved life.
Regarding the concept of Avatars professed by Hindus, Shah Abdul-Aziz, a prominent Sufi Alim of his time (1746-1823) wrote that:
“To conclude, we may say that the Avatars of the Hindus were manifestations of the Reality, whether they were in the form of human beings, or in the formal of an animal – like a lion or a fish. Such Avatars were very much similar to the staff of Moses or the she-camel of Salih. In the process of time, however, the ignorant among the Hindus, because of their inability to distinguish the real and the manifest, regarding everyone of them as the real God and thus went astray.”
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
I dont agree with you Kandani. Theory of Darwin was fake theory and there are many drawbacks in it. There are many books about it that how it is wrong from scientific and Islamic point of view.
I dont understand what do you mean by calling das avtar allegorical or symbolical. They are real and historical. In past people thought that the story of Noah was also allegorical and this cant be happen in reality but now science has proved that that event occur and it was not symbolical story.
I dont understand what do you mean by calling das avtar allegorical or symbolical. They are real and historical. In past people thought that the story of Noah was also allegorical and this cant be happen in reality but now science has proved that that event occur and it was not symbolical story.
Memoirs of Aga Khan
I wonder if this issue is mentioned in memoirs of Aga Khan. 
Shams
Shams
Challenge to Darwin's Theory
At present the Darwin's theory is under serious criticism stemming from the latest discoveries in molecular biology including discovery of DNA. The new theory that is emerging is called the Intelligent Design which very much tunes in with Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's view about continuous creation in the memoirs.
The evolutionary science has not been able to show a single instance of "macro-evolution" across species(as distinct from "micro-evolution within a species).
The following is an extract of an article I read recently on this issue.
A crucial ID concept is "irreducible complexity". Biochemist Michael Behe introduced this notion in his 1996 blockbuster, Darwin's Black Box.
Behe argues that an irreducibly complex biological system, such as a human cell, is made up of well-matched, interdependent parts. To function at all, all parts must be present altogether, fully formed and in right combination. ID argues that it is impossible for separate parts to develop in isolation from each other, accumulating their essential characteristics one by one over a period of time, and then accidentally fuse together as a perfect working organism.
Darwinian evolution, the vision of a random, unguided process of countless small mutations over millions of years, is increasingly called into question because of ideas such as irreducible complexity.
The article is "Monkeying around with Darwin's evolution, the growing Intelligent Design movement challenges the sacred cow of modern science" by David F. Dawes appeared in the Calgary Herald of feb 22 2004.
The evolutionary science has not been able to show a single instance of "macro-evolution" across species(as distinct from "micro-evolution within a species).
The following is an extract of an article I read recently on this issue.
A crucial ID concept is "irreducible complexity". Biochemist Michael Behe introduced this notion in his 1996 blockbuster, Darwin's Black Box.
Behe argues that an irreducibly complex biological system, such as a human cell, is made up of well-matched, interdependent parts. To function at all, all parts must be present altogether, fully formed and in right combination. ID argues that it is impossible for separate parts to develop in isolation from each other, accumulating their essential characteristics one by one over a period of time, and then accidentally fuse together as a perfect working organism.
Darwinian evolution, the vision of a random, unguided process of countless small mutations over millions of years, is increasingly called into question because of ideas such as irreducible complexity.
The article is "Monkeying around with Darwin's evolution, the growing Intelligent Design movement challenges the sacred cow of modern science" by David F. Dawes appeared in the Calgary Herald of feb 22 2004.
Scientific Theories
It should be realised that all scientific theories and laws do not describe reality rather they are used as tools or in the words of MHI as 'windows' to perceive and comprehend reality. Each theory may explain a certain range of experience but may not work for the totality of experience. For example, Newtons laws of motion explain normal everyday experiences but fail when applied to sub atomic particles. Darwin's theory falls under this category.
All theories and laws of science are tentative and can change or modified with new discoveries to explain new situations as they arise.
All theories and laws of science are tentative and can change or modified with new discoveries to explain new situations as they arise.
FAQs: What Is Intelligent Design?
Kansas is weighing whether public schools should teach intelligent design alongside Darwin's theories. What is ID all about?
What is intelligent design (ID)?
Intelligent design is the theory that living things show signs of having been designed. ID supporters argue that living creatures and their biological systems are too complex to be accounted for by the Darwinian theory of evolution, and that a designer or a higher intelligence may be responsible for their complexity.
What do ID proponents believe about evolution?
Many ID proponents do not quarrel with most of Darwin's original claims about evolution. They do, however, believe that random genetic mutation and natural selection cannot account for certain biological phenomena, such as the human eye or the body's blood clotting mechanism. ID supporters argue that for these systems to arise via a gradual series of mutations is statistically impossible, which implies that a designer may have guided the process.
Is creationism the same thing as intelligent design?
No, although many critics of Intelligent Design conflate the two.
Creationism usually refers to the theory or belief that God created the universe and human beings in six days as recorded in the Bible's first book, Genesis.
In the United States today, some creationists--called Young Earth Creationists--accept the Genesis account literally and believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old, basing their calculations on the genealogies in the Hebrew scriptures. Young Earth creationists believe God created humans directly; humans did not evolve from other species.
Others, seeking to reconcile the Bible with modern science, believe that each Genesis day may have represented several billion years. (Gerald Schroeder, a physicist and Orthodox Jewish scholar, has calculated what the time spans may be.)
Intelligent design does not posit that the universe was created in six days; it does not contradict the commonly-held scientific view that the universe has been in existence for about 15 billion years. ID also does not challenge the idea that humans developed over time as a result of evolution.
However, critics of intelligent design have called it "creationism in a lab coat," saying that to point to an intelligent designer as the cause of certain biological systems is to abandon scientific inquiry. They argue that, over the decades, science has frequently closed "gaps" and explained previously inexplicable phenomena.
What are the origins of intelligent design theory?
The argument from design, as it has been known for hundreds of years, was expounded most famously by William Paley, a 19th century British theologian. Using the analogy of the watchmaker, Paley argued that just as we infer a watchmaker from the complex workings of a pocket watch, we must infer a creator of the universe from the complex systems of the natural order.
Today's advocates of intelligent design maintain that while Paley's perspective was rooted in the idea of a benevolent Christian God, theirs is the outgrowth of scientific discovery, which has left some profound and fundamental phenomena, such as cell structure, unexplained. But the overwhelming majority of intelligent design advocates are Christians, and virtually all are theists.
Some critics equate intelligent design theory with the so-called "God of the gaps" fallacy—resorting to a divine intelligence to explain the existence of natural phenomena for which we have no scientific explanation. But proponents of intelligent design respond by arguing that their perspective is based upon the latest scientific inquiry into the complexity of the natural order and recognition that evolutionary and other more recent scientific theory is inadequate to explain many biological and physical phenomena.
What do scientists say about intelligent design?
Many of the most vocal supporters of intelligent design have scientific backgrounds and credentials. Prominent among them is Michael J. Behe, a professor of biological sciences at Lehigh University. Behe stresses that he regards ID as a "minimalist position. It only requires that there be physical evidence of an intelligence behind creation of complex natural systems. Who did the creating, or why, comprise a separate set of questions."
Among proponents of intelligent design, there are distinctions between those who support the "old Earth position" as Behe does—he believes that the universe is 13 billion years old—and proponents of the "young Earth" position. They all share a set of assumptions about the "irreducible complexity" of some natural phenomena, if not the process of the design or the characteristics of the designer.
What is the controversy in Kansas about?
In a setting that some have compared to the famous Scopes “Monkey Trial,” the Kansas State Board of Education subcommittee in May 2005, has begun hearings on proposed changes to science testing standards for Kansas public school students. The changes would add intelligent design as an alternative explanation to the current teaching that life evolved through natural selection. The hearings are preliminary to a full board meeting in June.
The three board members presiding over the hearings are all conservative Republicans who agree with critics of evolution. Experts on both sides of the controversy are testifying, but some state and national science groups are boycotting the hearings on the grounds that the outcome is preordained and that the hearings are meant to showcase intelligent design.
In 1999, the Kansas school board voted to remove references to evolution from statewide science standards. But the references were restored later after anti-evolutionist board members were unseated. In the current case, a majority again favors adding intelligent design, which makes adoption of new standards likely.
Kansas is weighing whether public schools should teach intelligent design alongside Darwin's theories. What is ID all about?
What is intelligent design (ID)?
Intelligent design is the theory that living things show signs of having been designed. ID supporters argue that living creatures and their biological systems are too complex to be accounted for by the Darwinian theory of evolution, and that a designer or a higher intelligence may be responsible for their complexity.
What do ID proponents believe about evolution?
Many ID proponents do not quarrel with most of Darwin's original claims about evolution. They do, however, believe that random genetic mutation and natural selection cannot account for certain biological phenomena, such as the human eye or the body's blood clotting mechanism. ID supporters argue that for these systems to arise via a gradual series of mutations is statistically impossible, which implies that a designer may have guided the process.
Is creationism the same thing as intelligent design?
No, although many critics of Intelligent Design conflate the two.
Creationism usually refers to the theory or belief that God created the universe and human beings in six days as recorded in the Bible's first book, Genesis.
In the United States today, some creationists--called Young Earth Creationists--accept the Genesis account literally and believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old, basing their calculations on the genealogies in the Hebrew scriptures. Young Earth creationists believe God created humans directly; humans did not evolve from other species.
Others, seeking to reconcile the Bible with modern science, believe that each Genesis day may have represented several billion years. (Gerald Schroeder, a physicist and Orthodox Jewish scholar, has calculated what the time spans may be.)
Intelligent design does not posit that the universe was created in six days; it does not contradict the commonly-held scientific view that the universe has been in existence for about 15 billion years. ID also does not challenge the idea that humans developed over time as a result of evolution.
However, critics of intelligent design have called it "creationism in a lab coat," saying that to point to an intelligent designer as the cause of certain biological systems is to abandon scientific inquiry. They argue that, over the decades, science has frequently closed "gaps" and explained previously inexplicable phenomena.
What are the origins of intelligent design theory?
The argument from design, as it has been known for hundreds of years, was expounded most famously by William Paley, a 19th century British theologian. Using the analogy of the watchmaker, Paley argued that just as we infer a watchmaker from the complex workings of a pocket watch, we must infer a creator of the universe from the complex systems of the natural order.
Today's advocates of intelligent design maintain that while Paley's perspective was rooted in the idea of a benevolent Christian God, theirs is the outgrowth of scientific discovery, which has left some profound and fundamental phenomena, such as cell structure, unexplained. But the overwhelming majority of intelligent design advocates are Christians, and virtually all are theists.
Some critics equate intelligent design theory with the so-called "God of the gaps" fallacy—resorting to a divine intelligence to explain the existence of natural phenomena for which we have no scientific explanation. But proponents of intelligent design respond by arguing that their perspective is based upon the latest scientific inquiry into the complexity of the natural order and recognition that evolutionary and other more recent scientific theory is inadequate to explain many biological and physical phenomena.
What do scientists say about intelligent design?
Many of the most vocal supporters of intelligent design have scientific backgrounds and credentials. Prominent among them is Michael J. Behe, a professor of biological sciences at Lehigh University. Behe stresses that he regards ID as a "minimalist position. It only requires that there be physical evidence of an intelligence behind creation of complex natural systems. Who did the creating, or why, comprise a separate set of questions."
Among proponents of intelligent design, there are distinctions between those who support the "old Earth position" as Behe does—he believes that the universe is 13 billion years old—and proponents of the "young Earth" position. They all share a set of assumptions about the "irreducible complexity" of some natural phenomena, if not the process of the design or the characteristics of the designer.
What is the controversy in Kansas about?
In a setting that some have compared to the famous Scopes “Monkey Trial,” the Kansas State Board of Education subcommittee in May 2005, has begun hearings on proposed changes to science testing standards for Kansas public school students. The changes would add intelligent design as an alternative explanation to the current teaching that life evolved through natural selection. The hearings are preliminary to a full board meeting in June.
The three board members presiding over the hearings are all conservative Republicans who agree with critics of evolution. Experts on both sides of the controversy are testifying, but some state and national science groups are boycotting the hearings on the grounds that the outcome is preordained and that the hearings are meant to showcase intelligent design.
In 1999, the Kansas school board voted to remove references to evolution from statewide science standards. But the references were restored later after anti-evolutionist board members were unseated. In the current case, a majority again favors adding intelligent design, which makes adoption of new standards likely.
Adam, Eve, and Human Evolution
Interesting perspective at:
http://www.anandaclaritymagazine.com/20 ... yogananda/
Interesting perspective at:
http://www.anandaclaritymagazine.com/20 ... yogananda/
The Imam's perspective on Das Awatar is explained in his own handwritten words here below:
http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorE ... 1980-1.pdf
From
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15497
http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorE ... 1980-1.pdf
From
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15497
It is not true. There is no handwritten word of the Imam in the book. If you still think there is please state the page no. ThanksAdmin wrote:The Imam's perspective on Das Awatar is explained in his own handwritten words here below:
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15497
I don't know if it is in the book or not but if I go to the following url, it gives me a handwritten letter by Imam Sultan Muhammas Shah on the topic.kmaherali wrote:It is not true. There is no handwritten word of the Imam in the book. If you still think there is please state the page no. ThanksAdmin wrote:The Imam's perspective on Das Awatar is explained in his own handwritten words here below:
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15497
http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorE ... 1980-1.pdf
OK thanks, it is not in the book but I guess it is relevant to the discussion at hand. It confirms the theory of Das Avtaars but says nothing about evolution.Admin wrote: I don't know if it is in the book or not but if I go to the following url, it gives me a handwritten letter by Imam Sultan Muhammas Shah on the topic.
http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorE ... 1980-1.pdf
Can someone type out what the Imam has handwritten - years of photocopying makes it a little difficult to decipher.Admin wrote:I don't know if it is in the book or not but if I go to the following url, it gives me a handwritten letter by Imam Sultan Muhammas Shah on the topic.kmaherali wrote:It is not true. There is no handwritten word of the Imam in the book. If you still think there is please state the page no. ThanksAdmin wrote:The Imam's perspective on Das Awatar is explained in his own handwritten words here below:
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15497
http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorE ... 1980-1.pdf
Thanks
Shams
Prince Sadruddin in his article: http://www.ismaili.net/sadruddin/sdrudin1.html , mentions that his father MSMS had a heated conversation with Professor Leakey who was a supporter of the theory of evolution:
"He sought the company of scientists since the time when, against orthodox medical opinion, he had himself inoculated publicly at the age of 20 during the Bombay epidemic of bubonic plague in 1897. This prompted others to follow and many lives were saved as a result.
I have not forgotten his heated conversations with Professor Leakey in Nairobi when the first discoveries of the earliest remains of man were made in the Rift Valley, or his exchanges with Professors Bogomoletz or Niehans on longevity."
This suggests that the late Imam did not support the theory of evolution.
"He sought the company of scientists since the time when, against orthodox medical opinion, he had himself inoculated publicly at the age of 20 during the Bombay epidemic of bubonic plague in 1897. This prompted others to follow and many lives were saved as a result.
I have not forgotten his heated conversations with Professor Leakey in Nairobi when the first discoveries of the earliest remains of man were made in the Rift Valley, or his exchanges with Professors Bogomoletz or Niehans on longevity."
This suggests that the late Imam did not support the theory of evolution.
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swamidada_1
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:21 pm
Imam as a religious leader and spiritual guide can not believe or propagate theory of evolution. The reason is it will negate the Quran and the Bible.kmaherali wrote:Prince Sadruddin in his article: http://www.ismaili.net/sadruddin/sdrudin1.html , mentions that his father MSMS had a heated conversation with Professor Leakey who was a supporter of the theory of evolution:
This suggests that the late Imam did not support the theory of evolution.
I do not believe in the theory of Evolution because it is a theory only.
However there are as says Hazar Imam, thousands of interpretation of the Quran and I would think the same with the Bible.
So to say that one theory or the other negate the holy books, is far fetched. It all depends of which interpretation you follow and the states of discovery in the epoch when you live.
However there are as says Hazar Imam, thousands of interpretation of the Quran and I would think the same with the Bible.
So to say that one theory or the other negate the holy books, is far fetched. It all depends of which interpretation you follow and the states of discovery in the epoch when you live.
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swamidada_1
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:21 pm
No doubt there are thousands of interpretations of Quran written by various scholars in different times, even work is going on in 21st century. Now who will decide which one is correct fully or partially.
Ismailis believe it is the Imam of the time who will interpret Quran for them. Therefore my point is as Imam knows the reality of Adam as mentioned in Quran, he rejected theory of Evolution.
As you are an expert in Ginanic literature, will you explain the following Ginan adopted from Heritage site.
SACHAA MERAA KHAALAQ BY PEER SHAMS
ejee sachaa meraa khaalaq sirjannhaar
aape upaayaa shaah dhandhukaar...............................1
My Creator who is the Creator of this universe is the Truth. He created by himself from the void.
ejee nabee muhammad khudaa kaa pyaaraa
nabee muhammad ku aayaa pukaaraa.............................2
Prophet Muhammad is the beloved of God. An angel visited Prophet Muhammad.
ejee ain pukaareku iyu(n) farmaayaa
chin maattee daa bhut sadhaayaa..............................3
The same angel was ordered to make the statue of Adam from sticky clay.
ejee bhut sadhaayaa tis ruh sadhaayaa
vann vann ruh is andhaar kotthee.............................4
Having created the statue, the soul was created (and was told) O soul! enter into this dark house.
ejee vahere baanaa e taaq tumaaraa
sachaa meraa khaalaq hamaaraa................................5
O brother! This is your abode and accept my Creator truly.
ejee sachaa meraa khaalaq bahesht ki jholee
ginaan mahaaras peer shams kee boli..........................6
My Creator who is the Truth, is indeed the sack of paradise. This ginaan which is full of wisdom is the speech of Peer Shams.
Ismailis believe it is the Imam of the time who will interpret Quran for them. Therefore my point is as Imam knows the reality of Adam as mentioned in Quran, he rejected theory of Evolution.
As you are an expert in Ginanic literature, will you explain the following Ginan adopted from Heritage site.
SACHAA MERAA KHAALAQ BY PEER SHAMS
ejee sachaa meraa khaalaq sirjannhaar
aape upaayaa shaah dhandhukaar...............................1
My Creator who is the Creator of this universe is the Truth. He created by himself from the void.
ejee nabee muhammad khudaa kaa pyaaraa
nabee muhammad ku aayaa pukaaraa.............................2
Prophet Muhammad is the beloved of God. An angel visited Prophet Muhammad.
ejee ain pukaareku iyu(n) farmaayaa
chin maattee daa bhut sadhaayaa..............................3
The same angel was ordered to make the statue of Adam from sticky clay.
ejee bhut sadhaayaa tis ruh sadhaayaa
vann vann ruh is andhaar kotthee.............................4
Having created the statue, the soul was created (and was told) O soul! enter into this dark house.
ejee vahere baanaa e taaq tumaaraa
sachaa meraa khaalaq hamaaraa................................5
O brother! This is your abode and accept my Creator truly.
ejee sachaa meraa khaalaq bahesht ki jholee
ginaan mahaaras peer shams kee boli..........................6
My Creator who is the Truth, is indeed the sack of paradise. This ginaan which is full of wisdom is the speech of Peer Shams.