Baten or Zahir - Can we choose?

[kkicker]

From the postings I have seen on a number of subjects in this forum there seems to be some confusion about how much of the Zahir should be followed as prescribed by the sunna of the prophet(saw). Some people seem to be of the opinion that Ismaili muslims can forget about the physical practices such as fasting, eating halal, etc. and believe that they can follow the 'essence' of Islam without performing the actions. To paraphrase Nasir-i Khusraw, we as humans have both a physical and intellectual side to us. And although we cannot practice the physical aspects of Islam without understanding why through the intellect, we cannot abandon the physical aspects. We cannot forget that the Qur'an is the word of Allah (swt) and if in the Qur'an we are told to fast, for example, then how can we pretend to be as wise as Allah to make allowances to his rules. My point is that the Zahir is undisputable from the Qur'an and the prophet(saw), the Baten we find out ourselves, through the Imams (saw) and teachings of scholars and philosphers such as Nasir-i Khusraw. Knowing the Baten doesn't excuse us from the Zahir as long as we physically exist. We must search for a middle way between these two.

[777]

<P>Ya ali madad, may I ask you a question? Are you ismaili? If yes dear, why are you asking yourself, if you should turn yourself to zahiri or batuni matters? Dear, we are born in a tariqat faith not shariat, we have allready past the shariat in our past lifes. o&shy;ne thing you have to know, there is Shariat, tariqat, haqiqat, marifat and fanafillah (aslo called assal makan). If you still want to do shariat,it is great. It is very good to do ramazan etc. But if your purpose&nbsp;in life is to annihilate yourself into the nature of god ( assal makan) then you must search for haqiqat. <BR>Mowla has said: "How big is the difference between your faith and the faith of others? Think: your faith is esoteric and the faith of others is exoteric. How big is the difference between the esoteric faith and the exoteric faith? If Mukhi-Kamarias do not explain this to the children, and if the word of truth does not reach their souls in childhood, then the exoteric faith will settle in their minds."<BR><BR>Our faith ( ismailism) is esoteric!!!</P>

[karimqazi]

Ya Ali Madad

I would like to share some of my thoughts reguarding this matter. I will say Mowla Bapa is the soul authority of giving us the guidance. Mowla says in his farmans that: ther is two kinds of momins one does tasbhi, namaz, roza. The second kind will ask for freedom for the soul (ruhani) "Aah ane The kiyre paan ek tawana nathi" Meaning: This and that never become one implying that both are seperate things. Like in worldy terms the child learns the alphabet in the first grade, in the second grade the child learns to make words with those letters and therefore doesnt need to remember the letters of the alphabet any more, but instead just the words which he/she has learned. In the third grade the child can write sentences and paragraphs and naturally knows what to write down in what order. You cannot give teach a first grader fourth grade material he wont be able to understand it.
So the question of choosing does not remain, you have to complete one grade to be entered into another grade. Therefore you have to complete the Shariath level before entering into the tariqat level. Ismailis are in tariqath... do we want to go back into the first grade? No, becuase we have already passed that grade and now need to move forward to gradate in other words reach fanafillah
I hope this enlightens you about the meanin of being an ismaili and what level you are therefore at.

Thanks

Karim Qazi

[shamsu]

Ya Ali Madad

I would like to share some of my thoughts reguarding this matter. I will say Mowla Bapa is the soul authority of giving us the guidance. Mowla says in his farmans that: ther is two kinds of momins one does tasbhi, namaz, roza. The second kind will ask for freedom for the soul (ruhani) "Aah ane The kiyre paan ek tawana nathi" Meaning: This and that never become one implying that both are seperate things.

Sorry Mr Qazi but the Farman from page 354 KIM-I farman 160 goes like this "Aa ane tae kyare pun ek thavana nathi. Kyare pun ek nahin thashe. "Aa" kitab, roza, namaz tatha bandagi ne chahe cche. "Tae" umed aazadi ni raakhe cche. Ae bae vato cche. Bannae na vichar juda juda cche. Amara vastae ghani mehnat cche.
"Ae" baeilmi kem razi thai? "Ae" Haqiqat ne pakadto nathi. Aene Haqiqat joiti nathi. Jaeo baeilmi cche teo Haqiqat ne cchodi aape cche. Pun je Haqiqati cche tae beejae rastae cchale cche........"


Imam SMS has also made farman where he has said "Amaro deen Haqiqati cche" and "Amaro deen ruhani cche" In light of these Farmans I think we should try to become Haqiqati and Ruhani.

Yes we have a Tariqa which we follow but the purpose of following the Ismaili Tariqa is to reach the Imams Haqiqat ASAP and not spend the entire life on the path and not reach the Aazadi which is our goal.

Page 346 KIM I farman 160
"tamne atyarae Ruh no khayal cche ke bandagi karinae sukh meravano khayal cche?"

[kmaherali]

This is a very interesting issue and is likely to be raised in future. I would like to share my thoughts as under.

First of all, a person who professes Shahada is a Muslim. Islam is not a monolithic faith, but rather it is a pluralistic faith with many interpretations and a Muslim can decide to choose any interpretation which accords with his or her intellectual and historical outlook.

According to Shia interpretation as articulated by Imam Muhammad al Baqir, Islam is based upon seven pillars:
1. Walaya (Devotion to the Imam) and this is the most excellent; and through it and the Imam, the true knowledge of faith can be obtained.
2. Tahara (Ritual purity)
3. Sala (Prayer)
4. Zaka (Poor tax)
5. Sawm (Fasting)
6. Hajj (Pilgrimage)
7. Jihad( Holy war)

As can be noted from above, this differs from the majority (Sunni) interpretation of Islam. The principle of Walaya supersedes all the others and ensures that the practice of faith changes according to changing circumstances. Sharia is not meant to be a static body of law, rather it should be able to change according to times. The principles behind the law will remain the same but the form may change according to changing circumstances. These changes can only happen through the authority of the Imam. There is a prophetic Hadith which states: "During my life time if you obey 90% of the Sunna, 10% will be forgiven; after my death if you will obey 10%, 90% will be forgiven".

I agree absolutely with Nasr Khusraw's view on Zahir and Batin. Our faith is an esoteric tradition which emphasises the interplay between the Zahir and the Batin. It is wrong to assume that because we are a Batini faith, we are absolved from any need to practice the Sharia. The universe is sustained through the interplay between action (Sharia) and contemplation and knowledge (Haqiqah). They are mutually reinforcing. Proper action provides the framework for contemplation and knowledge which in turn inspire correct action. These are the notions that provide the esoteric traditions with the power to transform the world by providing the framework for the search for a higher life resulting in the creation of artistic, scientific, philosophical and other cultural traditions. However our Sharia is not based on the Sunna of the Prophet, rather is is based upon the guidance of the Imam of the time. In my opinion our Sharia is comprised of Dua, Dasond, Seva and Sirat-al-Mustaqueem which provides the basis for knowledge and contemplation.

[kmaherali]

The following are the seven pillars of religious law and their esoteric meaning as explained by Nair Tusi in the "Tasawwurat".

1. Cleanliness (taharat) - to dissociate oneself from previous religions and traditions.
2. Confession of faith (Shahadat) - to know God through Himself.
3. Prayer (Namaz) - to be always speaking about recognition of God.
4. Fasting (Sawm) - to speak with the followers of falsehood using precautionary dissimulation (taqiyyah) in order to maintain continual fasting.
5. Charity (Zakat) - to give to other brothers in religion part of that which God, the Exalted, has given you.
6. Pilgrimage (hajj) - to abandon this temporal world and seek the eternal abode (of the hereafter).
7. Holy war (jihad) - to annihilate oneself in the essence of God, the Exalted.

[Qizilbash]

This is just like Alevism. We also believe we are in Tariqa.

But how do you Ismailis explain that you have "abandoned" / moved on from Sharia? When and how did this happen?

[kmaherali]

This is just like Alevism. We also believe we are in Tariqa.

But how do you Ismailis explain that you have "abandoned" / moved on from Sharia? When and how did this happen?

To get a better understanding of Sharia, the following is a post by Sayfadeen which in my opinion reflects the background and our interpretation of its unfoldment.

"On the shari'ah side, the shari'ah itself was primarily a creation of
the Umayyads. Umayyad jurists used ra'y (personal opinion) and qiyas
(analogy) in making their rulings until the time of the caliphate
of 'Umar ibn 'Abd al-Aziz, who began to lay emphasis on Qur'an and
sunnah and demand of jurists that they rule on the basis of legal
evidence rather then personal opinion or the tradition of a
geographic school of law. Shari'ah, therefore, does not exist as a
set of eternal Divine commands. It is a means of expressing certain
religious and spiritual truths. It is a language, like any other.
When we speak of the Imams abrogating the shari'ah, what we are
really speaking of is the Imams abandoning one language for another
language. With Imam Hasan 'ala dhikirihi salam, he abandoned the
language of shari'ah, a language of master and slave created by the
Umayyads and popularized during the first and second century, in
favor of a language of tariqah, a language of lover and beloved. He
did not abrogate a pre-existing Divine Law. The law that was used by
the Fatimids was largely a compromise between Sunni and 12er fiqh,
and generally accords more closely with Sunni fiqh than it does with
12er. The "rule" in Ismailism has always been to follow the law of
the land and what is customary in most cases, except in things that
are spiritually harmful. The Fatimid Imams laid down a school of law
that was based on existing law, just as the Prophet's law was based
on a divinely sanctioned compromise between existing Arab custom and
Jewish law, and some new modifications. He did not come with a
totally new system of law from heaven, but rather reformed existing
law in the Arabian peninsula. The Umayyads did the same thing, and
the Fatimids did the same with what the Umayyads had done. None of it
had any eternality or essentiality to it, which is why it was
dispensed with so easily by Imam Hasan II.

As such, since there was never any shari'ah to begin with, there is
no problem with making changes in it, so long as it is the Imam who
makes the changes. The reason for this is that the Imam *of the age*
has to decide about the *language of the age* and what is the best
way to express the eternal truths of the religion. Should they be
expressed through the rituals of shari'ah (master/slave), or through
the rituals of tariqah (lover/beloved)? Should something allowed by
local custom (like drinking alcohol) be accepted, or should it be
forbidden because it is spiritually harmful (which it is)? It works
like that.

As far as the hidden Imams, the Qur'an makes clear there is always an
Imam, and so it fills the gaps in itself. Allah says to the
Prophet: "Indeed you are but a Prophet, and to every people there is
a guide." (13:7) Therefore, there is always a guide, whether it be an
actual Imam (Imam Mustaqarr), or a Pir entrusted with Imamah (Imam
Mustawda') who represents the Imam. It is not like the 12er case
where the Imam simply vanishes and leaves the community to figure out
everything on their own, thereby nullifying any point in sending the
Prophets and Imams to begin with, since no subsequent generations
will have access to the truth."

[Qizilbash]

Thank you very much kmaherali!

May I ask when the Imam Hasan II lived, and which number is he?

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/main.html

I couldn't find him on the chart..

[kmaherali]

Thank you very much kmaherali!

May I ask when the Imam Hasan II lived, and which number is he?

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/main.html

I couldn't find him on the chart..

You are welcome!

HASAN ALA ZIKRIHI'S SALAM (557-561/1162-1166)

Hasan Ali, or Abu'l Hasan, surnamed Zikrihi's Salam (peace be on his mention) was born in Alamut. He is reported to have born in 539/1145, but according to another tradition, he was born in 536/1142.

[Qizilbash]

kmaherali, can I ask you about how the Shariah was in time before Imam Hasan II?

Which consequence did it have to dispense this form of Shariah by Imam Hasan II? How was it before, and how did it become after?

[kmaherali]

kmaherali, can I ask you about how the Shariah was in time before Imam Hasan II?

Which consequence did it have to dispense this form of Shariah by Imam Hasan II? How was it before, and how did it become after?

Before the Qiyamat, the Ismailis would have been practising the seven principles as laid out by Imam al- Baqir as mentioned in this thread above.

After the Qiyamat the emphasis would have been on the first principle of obedience and devotion to the Imam (walaya). The other principles would have taken different forms. One of the interpretation is given by Tusi in his "Paradise of Submission" ("Tasawwurat" mentioned above in this thread)