Is Hazar Imam With Us Physically in Khane?

[samirziz]

Spiritually, He is in Khane, but Can He be there physically?

[unnalhaq]

Nope.

[_thaillestlunatic_]

YES, he can be there PHYSICALLY, it is up to your level of spirituality and recognition of who he is. It is said, the Mukhi of the Jamat is MHI physically, I don't remember where I heard this but it is true.

[Akbar(Khan)]

Spiritually, He is in Khane, but Can He be there physically?

MHI can be physically present in Jamat Khana if he wants to, only you and I cannot see him present. A person who is not an ismaili has witnessed that he has seen MHI walk in and out of Jamat Khana many times early in the morining (prayer time). Something to think about!

[_thaillestlunatic_]

Yes, I do agree with you. More of what is surprising/shocking is that many non-ismailies have felt spiritual experiences when they have been in JK for various reasons. I will share an example where one ismaili who does JK repairs for doors etc.. was at a khane and brought his non-ismaili friend into JK to inspect the work which was being done. They had talked for a while, and after the ismaili guy had asked him, how much do I owe you? For the services you have rendered? This guy was shocked and said how can I take anything from you, there are spirits here, are any people sitting here? This guy was so spiritually awakended by JUST walking into JK.. and this was in the foyer of JK.. imagine if he went into the prayer hall. Many other incidents like this have happend in JK.

If these non-ismailies can feel these spritual experiences in khane for the FIRST time ever, why can't we? something to think about.........

[unnalhaq]

You are confusing spiritual and/or esoteric with physical or exoteric.
Please do not take this as an attack or disrespect:
The Imam is a human being who is a Leader or a Guide and to Ismailis The Spiritual Leader. HE is NOT an illusionist NOR can HE be in two places at the sometime PHYSICALLY.

[kmaherali]

Mukhisaheb's role in JamatKhana is equivalent to MHI's physical presence in everyway that matters. He accepts offerings from the murids, gives blessings and offers help/guidance on personal matters on behalf of MHI. In that sense he performs all the roles that MHI would perform in his physical presence.

[zubair_mahamood]

YAM
Ismailies are spiritual children of MHI we follow him not only in Jamatkhana/Jamat activities but also out of Jamatkhana which equals to MHI’s Physical presence everywhere we are. sjd
MH

[unnalhaq]

There is no doubt that The Imam's presence is in JK (by proxy) be it via Muki or be it spiritually.
Topic or Question has a tone (when interpreted), as if The Imam is present physically (in flesh and blood) in JK. And the answer is still no. Unless the original author of the topic clarifies his/her statement/question.

[_thaillestlunatic_]

With regards to the posting made by UnnalHaq

"The Imam is a human being who is a Leader or a Guide and to Ismailis The Spiritual Leader. HE is NOT an illusionist NOR can HE be in two places at the sometime PHYSICALL"

I would disagree here. Yes, he can be in two places at the same time as he is above the law of time, space, etc etc.

ie "He who is above all else" which we all hear in BUK farmans

There was once an incident where Hazar Imam was staying at one of the leaders residences (bungalow for that matter) and had gone for a walk ( he told this to the leader) and the after 10-15 mins the leader (i will not say his name) FINALLY saw Khudavind and had asked him, " Khudavind, where did you go? We have been looking for you"

To which Khudavind replied ( I am paraphrasing) he said I was in Africa and in India ( this is where the bungalow was at) at the same time.

It is up to you if you are going to believe this story.

I would also like to add on to what kmaherali said. In some incidents, during mulaqaats, darbars etc MHI has said go to my Mukhisaheb for Mahadan Chanta or blessings he can give them to you on my behalf.

[zubair_mahamood]

There is no doubt that The Imam's presence is in JK (by proxy) be it via Muki or be it spiritually.
Topic or Question has a tone (when interpreted), as if The Imam is present physically (in flesh and blood) in JK. And the answer is still no. Unless the original author of the topic clarifies his/her statement/question.

Unnalhaq just answer to my question then I will try to reply u regarding Imam Presence in JK. One of our brothers posted that in a Farman imam has said he is present in Jk if u don’t want to believe Imam Words. Then what do u believe? What do u think Imam is? Do u have any personal experience with him or u just read about MHI?

[samirziz]

I read a firman by Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah, and he says though I may leave you physically, I am always Hazar, ever present.
So i have answered my own question, He cant be physically in khane, however in my mind, He can do anything he wishes to, but I doubt he would be in khane physically because he would be violating the laws of nature.

Thanks though.

[_thaillestlunatic_]

Ya Ali Madat Samir,

Yes, I have also read that farman too.

I disagree once again because the Imam can do anything he wants or wishes as he pleases.

Let us not go into the topic of him being Allah as we can see from the forums allready it has been proven he is Allah himself.

Having said that, do YOU really think the law of nature applies to him?
for that matter any laws? of time, space, matter etc?

"Imam is the CAUSE of creation, even for one moment if the Imam wishes the whole world would disintigrate"

Imam can be wherever he wants PHYSICALLY or SPIRITUALLY.

Now of course you and I can't see him PHYSICALLY in JK but trust me there are elevated souls, or ruhaanis who can.

It is because of our level of spirituality that we cannot see him in JK ( PHYSICALLY).

I hope this helps.

[samirziz]

I too did mention in my post that he can do as he wishes, it is true that he is the cause of the creation.

As for the law of nature, yes I believe that despite ( Noor within Shah Karim) being God, physically he too is under the laws of nature, because he has submitted himself to the laws of nature- If he did not get sick or go through life then He wouldnt be a fair God would it now?

Hazrat Ali was struck while doing Namaz.
Karim Shah broke his leg a few years ago. I think we all think it is the body of Karim that is God, it is what is inside him, the Noor that is God.

So I dont think he would be in khane physically as in the body of Shah Karim, because it wouldnt make sense- though he could do it.

[zubair_mahamood]

YAM,

Hazrat Ali was struck while doing Namaz. Karim Shah broke his leg a few years ago. I think we all think it is the body of Karim that is God; it is what is inside him, the Noor that is God.

So I don’t think he would be in khane physically as in the body of Shah Karim, because it wouldn’t make sense- through he could do it.

If u believes that it’s The Noor thts is ALLAH and Allah is communicating with us through Karim then y do u want to limit his body.

The Noor (Allah) doesn’t even need body to communicate. Allah communicated with Musa directly without any interface. If he wants he can remain in Karim body without even changing a bit. It’s only what Allah will, Allah doesn’t need to explain us his intentions. Allah is Qaadir (The omnipotent one) He who is able to do anything in the way he wills. He only has to say “Be, and it is”.

When I was kid, I had cut eggplant or Aubergine (French) it was written Allah in Arabic inside the Aubergine with seeds and during those days all aubergines had this written, I as a kid started thinking its natural but after some time I realise that Allah written in Aubergines is unnatural. Just tell me it was natural or unnatural. Y did it made sense at the begging. We see and accept things what we are used too. If Allah will what u says natural can be unnatural. U and I have limitation or in fact if Allah wants v can be unlimited. It’s not u or I who decide, its Allah who decide. Its throw my personal experience I am telling this that we are still kids, our knowledge is limited to discuss Allah, so please stop limiting MHI in anyway. Sjd

zubair

[samirziz]

Firstly I have already mentioned twice that Hazar Imam can destroy this world if he wanted to, he can make this world into nothingness if he wishes to, He has the power of taking this entire universe in his hands as it was stated by Nabi Salman.

The only question is why he would do it. as he is beyond my comprehension I can only attempt to speculate and assume.

So why would he do it? Why doesnt he come out and say he is God.. Because people arent ready to accept him as God. Though you will find that many muslims in india and hindus and people elsewhere have already begun to accept him.

I think we have both and infact all agreed that he is the cause of creation.
Do you see Hazar Imam performing miracles in public? Absolutely not, Thats what we have to ask ourselves, Why doesnt he do it?

[nashvelshi]

"Christianity adapted itself to science, though it is any thing but a natural religion being based on fundamentally irrational principles, which are the break up of natural law and order, while science accepted these extraordinary miracles as temporary breaks of the natural law of the universe."
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah in a letter to a friend, entitiled, "What have we forgotten in Islam"(1951).

Above, ISMS refers to the concept of Christ in Christianity being viewed as 'God made flesh' and also the physical resurrection three days after beind dead, as being against the laws of nature. This, in contrast to the Noor of Hazrat Ali as being the River that links up to the Ocean of Allah, that, in essence, Ali is Allah but the body or flesh of Ali is not Allah.

Having said that, I am with you in saying that the Imam can choose to restrict himself to the laws of nature or abrogate them for himself whenever the need arises. An anecdote from the past: The present Imam was once clearly late for an important meeting by the clock or watch on one's wrist. However, once he reached the meeting venue, he arrived perfectly on time. One can argue that he changed the natural law of the universe(time) to suit a particular situation.

[kmaherali]

I think we have both and infact all agreed that he is the cause of creation.
Do you see Hazar Imam performing miracles in public? Absolutely not, Thats what we have to ask ourselves, Why doesnt he do it?

The following poem that I found under another topic in this forum best addresses the issue at hand.

Imam is like a Mirror
See your reflecion in Him
If you see an ugly face
Then it is you

And if you see Allah in Him
Then still it is you
He is neither this nor that
He is your own reflection

Man of pure heart sees
Nothing but Light in Him
But evil one with his eyes
Sees only fire in Him

Do not run after destitute
Whose claims are high
He has not seen Light
Will make you more naive

Do not make yourself fool
With their saintly exteriors
Do not be impressed with
Their turbans and beards

It is ultimately a matter of perception reflecting the individual nature. To me his whole existence is a miracle for how could an eight year old say things like: "Why are you looking so sad? Isn't your Imam among you, doing your work?"

On the other hand if a person is blind, even an obvious miracle will mean nothing to him/her. Imam does not generally encourage faith being approached through miracles. MSMS once said: "We believe in miracles but they do not form the basis of faith (like Christianity)". Faith has to be approached through reason which leads to enduring certainty and conviction.

[_thaillestlunatic_]

Why does he have to perform miracles in public?

Do you think that will proove himself that he is God? And, if you believe he is God then do you really think God cant manifest himself PHYSICALLY in jk? ( In the form of Shah Karim?) It seems like you are contradicting yourself. once again, IF HE CHOOSES he dosent need to get sick, or eat, or anything. He can change any laws he wants to when he desires.

Either he is or he is not.

You decide, to me it is because we are lacking spirituality that we cannot see him PHYSICALLY.

[samirziz]

if we dont mind I'd like to end this discussion here, because we seem to be getting into an argument about what Hazar Imam can or can not do.
As far as i am concerned, I do believe Shah Karim is God, He is the manifestation of Allah. Karim is not God. He is like the glass of water, the water is the Noor, the glass is Karim Shah. That is why we say Noor Mowlana Shah Karim, not Karim Al-Hussayni in our dua. Dont get me wrong I am not limiting Him and I will never do so.

As for being in Khane, I believe he can make himself appear in khane as he wishes. Therefore I think we are all right, but Shukar that from the posts we have read that we belive he is the Mazhar of Allah.

Thank you for all your input and May you be blessed with Zaheri and Batuni deedar.


As

[_thaillestlunatic_]

I agree too but Samir you have read the farman in 1994 London where Imam says whether I am there PHYSICALLY or not "It makes no difference", so really why are we arguing, if the Imam himself has answered our questions.

[shamsu]

miracle

n 1: any amazing or wonderful occurrence 2: a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God



Would you call building and sustaining AKU and Aga Khan Hospital in a corrupt, mostly uneducated, poor third world country Pakistan a miracle?

Talk to the people from Pakistan they will convince you.


Shams

[Akbar(Khan)]

I think it depends on the level of spirituality one has on his faith and also the upbringing as a child. Samir never went to jk as from one of his posts which he posted in this forum (see below) suggests that he was "khane ka chor", so one can understand why he is arguing and questioning our faith. He was a lost soul and is now waiting for a miracle to happen.


MHI proforms millions of miracles everyday which you and I can not see. When we say in our Tashbi everyday, Mowla mushkila Asaan Ker, he is protecting us from danger everyday which we sometime realise and sometime we dont, for we have taken so many things for granted now that we are failing to realise that is was a miracle. I have been protected many times from danger and I really do not know how I got away from it and realise that it was Mowla's miracle!


Samir's post:

For years I was a "khane jo chor" as my family called me, I'd not go to khane, come up with all sorts of excuses, just to avoid going to khane. I'd rather be sitting home watching movies and read novels.Then About a year ago, I went through a traumatic experience in my life, Never before had i felt so lonely, so alone, so lost, because i had lost the woman i had loved. A cousin of mine, spoke to me, we talked about the pain, and he said the only way to overcome that pain, is by going to khane, do bandagi, take Allah's name. Its been a few months now, and i have tried to understand my faith a little better, and read more books about the ismaili faith.

Should we believe that everything happens for a reason? Losing the woman i loved was a way of God guiding me to his light?
Also I wish to learn more about my faith, some waezes by missionaries, Does anyone know where i can find these inspirational material?

[/i]

[nashvelshi]

Chapter70 verse 4:
The angels and the spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty
thousand years.

Chapter 32, verses 5-6:
He rules all affairs from the heavens to the earth. Then they all go back up
to him in one day, whose measure is a thousand years by your reckoning...


In the above Quranic verses, one interpretation of them is that angels are non-material created beings that are not bound by the rational laws of the material universe. What would take a material being 1000 or 50,000 years of time to travel to a particular location would take an angel a mere 1 day. This is a literal interpretation and I am sure that there are allegorical interpretations of these verses as well.

In the material universe, the fastest speed that anything can travel at is the speed of light, which is 300,000 kilometers per second. The sun is 150 million km from earth and thus it takes light from the sun 8.3 minutes to reach the earth. That is pretty fast but obviously non-material beings like angels travel much faster than the speed of light if one were to take the above verses literally.

The point is that if angels are created beings that do not follow the natural laws of the material universe, and if the Imam is the mazhar of the essence of Allah, despite being a human being, surely he has the option of choosing whether to be bound by those material natural laws or not.

This brings me to the anecdote I quoted about the absoluteless of time. Time has been shown not to be the absolute phenomenon that people think it is. In fact, during the early 20th century(1905 to be exact), time was shown to be a relative dimension of the material universe. This was the basis of Albert Einstein's special theory of relativity, which showed that if a three-dimensional material object travels at speeds approaching the speed of light, time, which is the fourth dimension in that scenario, starts to dilate or slow down. Its a very difficult concept to undersatand but a simpler analogy might help: If we take two identical twins(of the same age obviously) and leave one twin on earth and send the other twin in a spaceship to a distant galaxy, then send the spaceship at speeds close to the speed of light, time will slow down and the twin in the spaceship will age slower than his brother on earth. If he later returns to earth, he will be younger than his identical twin. Time is therefore a relative phenomenon, it being part of Allah's creation, just like space.

The most elegant scientific proof of Einstein's special theory of relativity came with the use of radioactive nuclei of atoms. In these types of atoms, radioactive decay is very precise in terms of the loss of mass and the time for a radioactive atom to decay to half its mass(known as its half-life). That is why world time is kept according to atomic clocks. They are the most precise in measurement.

Scientists went to the top of a tall mountain and, through a specially designed tube, first sent radioactive nuclei shooting down the tube at speeds much less than the speed of light. When they collected the nuclei at the bottom, they found that the half-life of the radioactive atoms had not changed. However, when they shot the nuclei down the tube at speeds close to the speed of light, they found that the half-life of the radioactive nuclei were prolonged. Time had slowed down for these particular samples at close to the speed of light and so it took longer than expected for the mass of the sample to decay by half.

So, in the anecdote I quoted where the Imam was clearly late by the clock for an important meeting, but, when he arrived at the meeting, he was perfectly on time, the relativity of time is part of the law of the rational, natural universe and one need not consider the anecdote necessarily a miracle outside that law.

Nevertheless, I firmly beleive that the Imam, if he so chooses, can operate outside the natural law of the material universe at will. Angels do it all the time. If someone claims to see the Imam physically in jamatkhana even though he may be known to be elsewhere physically, I would not necessarily discount that assertion.

[Akbar(Khan)]

I was talking to my wife about this topic and she reminded me about Abuali missionary's waez in which he said that at the time of memani, the Imam heard two brothers who were waiting in line for their turn to go before the Imam were talking in their mother language and thought that the Imam would not be able to understand their conversion! When the time came for them to present their memanis, the Imam smiled and told them that He can also understand the language of birds and bees! The two brothers were shocked! Now that was a very powerful message from the Imam.

[samirziz]

I am responding to a comment made about my faith.
Just to clarify, I wasnt questioning my faith, I do not doubt that Hazar Imam is the mazhar of Allah. If I recall correctly I have heard a waezin and many others encourage us to ask questions regarding our faith, and infact is the only sect that allows us to ask questions. It is important to understand the meaning of dua ( Firman of Mowlana Hazar Imam).

My original question Is hazar Imam physically in khane had nothing to do with me doubting whether or not he could be in khane. As Nabi Salman had written Ali had the power of the world in the palm of his hands.

While discussing the topic of Hazar Imam, someone had mentioend to me that he had heard a firman of Mowlana Hazar Imam stating that he is also physically in khane. that is why i posed the question to see if anyone had infact heard of such a firman. I have searched many books, and asked many religious teachers, and Hazar Imam has made no reference to being physically in khane.

I hope this ends the discussion of Hazar Imam being physically in khane or not. I apologise if I have/had wrongly stated my question.

I believe we are all here to learn more about our faith and become true momins of Hazar Imam.

Thank you.

[zubair_mahamood]

YAM,
We are not questioning our faith. We are trying to understand it by discussing it with different point. I think we need to look both sides of a coin that Imam is Question and he the answer, he is the beginning and he is the end, he is east and he is west, so samirziz I request u don’t stop this conservation. I also request all to reply patiently without hurting anyone. We are all brothers and sisters, we also represent Imam.

I apologies Samirziz, I think by ending this topics u may leave unanswered question. SJD

Zubair

[zubair_mahamood]

YAM

Just to sum up. We started by a question weather Hazar Imam is physically present in JK. I think by now we all accept if he want he can and we didn’t find any Farman regarding His presence.

Now topic is Miracles and Islam. I think reason for change in discursionin is my experience of Allah written in Aubergine. Since I posted that I am tying to get a proof (I didn’t mention it for the sack of writing something) I was a kid I didn’t have camera to take a pic. I am talking to family members, friends and relatives who had witness this. I am also looking for any articles from local authorities. U can also help.

It was during late 80’s in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, INDIA. As soon as I get any info I will share and if someone wants to have info personally I have 4 options.

1.I can give Ph no of my friends in India or abroad.

2.U can use telephone directory and call people living of Hyderabad (http://www.ap.bsnl.co.in/enquiry/dq.asp).

3.U can contact JK ppl in Hyderabad.

4.if u happen to visit hyd anyone will tell u.

by this I m not trying to prove anything but just reminding that we need to look be on points. SJD

Zubair

[zubair_mahamood]

I am responding to a comment made about my faith.
Just to clarify, I wasnt questioning my faith, I do not doubt that Hazar Imam is the mazhar of Allah. If I recall correctly I have heard a waezin and many others encourage us to ask questions regarding our faith, and infact is the only sect that allows us to ask questions. It is important to understand the meaning of dua ( Firman of Mowlana Hazar Imam).

U r not responsible for anything v all r hear to learn.

If u think ours is The only sect which allows us to ask question. Plz check this. I think one can never practice faith without understanding its concepts and to understand concepts one need to ask questions, well they are some people who follow it other way there belief is so stronger that they don’t question. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has always explained during his life time about each and every concept of Islam according to His time and level of understanding of His followers. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) always encouraged His follower to ask Questions.

I practiced my faith according to Sunni practices and since I was a kid I asked question and discuss religious concepts and practices with my mom, Mulvies and religious authorities, this was same with my Sunni friends. Even tell today one of my question is unanswered that y do ppl wear cap while doing Namaz? I went to mosque without cap and did Namaz without cap (there have been incidents when ppl try to put cap on my head while I was praying as they know that I don’t wear cap, sometimes I wore it as I didn’t want to hurt their feeling and sometimes I ask them; y do v wear cap) everyone explained me according their knowledge but I don’t find any genuine reply to wear a cap while praying.

They are lots of Islamic channel in Euro for Sunni Muslims were ppl write and call to find out answers for there questions. Some of The channels are GEO (Alim online), DM digital, DM Islam, Q tv, etc. What surprised me was on DM Islam they is live broadcast of a serial on the Descendants of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), last month they spoke about Imam Zainil Abideen, the host explained Imam Zainil Abideen life and his strangle for Islam (I don’t exactly know the name of this serial it come on Thursday at 1pm Paris time).

Not only Muslims started reasoning about there religious concept but also non Muslims. They are channels were religious education is given and all concepts are explained for Hindus. Recently I meet a French, who is converted Hindu and we discussed Faith in modern term, it was good to hear Imam’s Words from him but in his terms accordance to his BOOK (Bhagvat Gita). We also discussed about mediation and he gave me some tips. I also happen to meat a young boy who is practicing Buddhism, he also explained me his faith on intellectual bases. By all this I want to tell that we are not only sect they are other sect and other communities.

I am just sharing my knowledge. I think v should share our believes to b unite. SJD

Zubair

[kmaherali]

Not only Muslims started reasoning about there religious concept but also non Muslims. They are channels were religious education is given and all concepts are explained for Hindus. Recently I meet a French, who is converted Hindu and we discussed Faith in modern term, it was good to hear Imam’s Words from him but in his terms accordance to his BOOK (Bhagvat Gita). We also discussed about mediation and he gave me some tips. I also happen to meat a young boy who is practicing Buddhism, he also explained me his faith on intellectual bases. By all this I want to tell that we are not only sect they are other sect and other communities.

I am just sharing my knowledge. I think v should share our believes to b unite. SJD

Zubair

This is indeed a hopeful sign for the future. That people are questioning their traditions and finding meaning and purpose in them. Most of us do not really question our own traditions, we just take them for granted. I hope what emerges from this trend is a consensus on shared wisdom and ethics and respect for pluralism and not conflicting/dividing dogmas and beliefs.