Why not ismailis??

[star_munir]

I dont agree with you that,"Again may be even though Prophets they did not succeed in conveying God's message to everyone or deterred from the message. "
If that would be case then God would not made them Prophets..Afterall He has knowledge who can do that work and who not and I dont want to repeat same thing again and again the extract from Memoirs etc..I think if you will read the article which I sent you few days back in mail and prophecies in scriptures of Hindus,Parsis,Chirtians etc every thing will be cleared if there is your intention for learning then only.....Also I have given you link to read online Gita if you are interested.

[ShamsB]

I'll check the JK library or should I ask the Mukhi may be it's kept with him behind (in) the table

You (and you people like) are so ignorant that you can't even tell if someone is slapping you silly.

It is sad to say this that there is no Quran there. I think as someone mentioned that the Ginan of 10 signs of the end of times; where the 10th sign is that the Gabriel will take the Quran away! May be that has happened.

You can't have it both ways my friend....
you can't use a ginan to bolster your arguement..because in doing so..you are saying that the ginans weren't just used for conversion..

I know the taste of you own medicin can be bitter.

if he thought ginans were out of place..he'd have them removed like his pictures from Jamat Khana...

Just give it time. I know how hard it was for people to accept the removal of photos and I had argued that three years prior to that with the Tariqa Board chairperson and I was called names and such

...you think if he said stop singing Ginans..become Mullahs..any one of us would question him?

I think as I have told you before people don't follow when the Farmans are made and many times the Farmans are altered, omitted or even suppressed from the circulations. I think I gave you an example of a Farman that was given on/around Jan 1 (early 90s) in Australia about not to go to western world illegally and also in Uganda upon the reopening of Jk that was once lost, that not to bend rules or laws. Do you think people have been following? And I have been asking them to read those Farmans and I was told that those were illegal Farman! (may be illegal Jamet but not the Farman, I’d have to say)
And just this past Friday Night a faxed copy of the exact same Farman was sent by the Council for the US Australia and New Zeland to all JKs in US to be read was made on November 18, 1992 Hyderabad India about illegal immigration. I think that Farmans should have been read right when it was given. Now why do you think this was sent (by the council)? Just bad timing I would have to say. You see many of the people who do not have proper papers have already left on the journey to Canada Friday after work for the Deedar.
Now think why did Imam sent that Farman? It was to just protect the Jamet from the after effect (hardships) of 911.

One as it is known to all there is a vast difference between pictures of the Imam and Ginans...but..you seem to make no distinction between them..

once again..as I have said before..my faith and the faith of any other ismailies whether they be Khoja, Farsi, Afghani, Chinese, Russian, Khusrawi or what it may be..is dependent on the Imam..he says stop singing ginan and start singing Madonna..by golly I will do it..and I know many more will do it..no questions asked..till then...
Bhore Mane Srevo..Sirjaan haar...

in regards to nafarmani..i think that this isn't something that is impacting just Khojas..that is prevalent in all Ismaili communities..can you name one community that is following even 50% of the farmans..

thus MHI has been stressing balance between din and duniya..he's stressing prayer.

You have the possibility to practice in a simple manner unbeknownst even to others your faith by Remembering , Remembering , Remembering , Remembering . Remember and never forget . If you forget , you have given away the world of the Soul and you have let it be totally replaced by the material world around you , and this is not acceptable ....
Kampala 20th March 2005

and maybe star munir is right..your objective may not be one to learn and have an open mind..if that is so..and you are truly here to argue for the sake of arguement than i will end this by saying you are right..we are wrong...we will not gain salvation and we know it...please leave us to our follies.
BTW..where would you like to meet in BC?

Shams.

[tasbiha]

"You see many of the people who do not have proper papers have already left on the journey to Canada Friday after work for the Deedar."

That is really scary. Can you imagine being held up at the US border, trying to reenter? The US Border Patrol are complete idiots about Islam, they see NO difference between Ismailis and the Talibaan.

I can just imagine Ismailis having to claim refugee status in Canada, because they can't return to the US. Maybe they will be better off in Canada.

[ShamsB]

"You see many of the people who do not have proper papers have already left on the journey to Canada Friday after work for the Deedar."

That is really scary. Can you imagine being held up at the US border, trying to reenter? The US Border Patrol are complete idiots about Islam, they see NO difference between Ismailis and the Talibaan.

I can just imagine Ismailis having to claim refugee status in Canada, because they can't return to the US. Maybe they will be better off in Canada.

Maybe that's all part of the bigger plan

Shams

[curious2]

Whom do you know (or how many do you know) who have left like this?

I doubt the validity of your assumptions, unless you can clarify.

"You see many of the people who do not have proper papers have already left on the journey to Canada Friday after work for the Deedar."

That is really scary. Can you imagine being held up at the US border, trying to reenter? The US Border Patrol are complete idiots about Islam, they see NO difference between Ismailis and the Talibaan.

I can just imagine Ismailis having to claim refugee status in Canada, because they can't return to the US. Maybe they will be better off in Canada.

[alnoord]

<BR>Unnalhaq..a simple question..have you read the Gita?<BR>

<BR>I'll check the JK library or should I ask the Mukhi may be it's kept with him behind (in) the table <BR>No seriously, if Gita was that important Quran would have had references just as Torah and Bible. Sorry guys no go

<BR><BR>It's refreshing to see that all attempts by "Unalhaq" to create a rift between khoja and iranian ismailis have failed.

[unnalhaq]

<BR><BR>It's refreshing to see that all attempts by "Unalhaq" to create a rift between khoja and iranian ismailis have failed.

No one, not even I, was trying or "attempting" to create "rift". You (all of you) just have to acclimate your self to people standing up for them selves (as I am but many Persians do not or have not in past).
However, The Imam did recognize the differences and mentioned in His Farman in Vancouver June 10, 2005. And I believe He said the same thing as I had posted before "...I respect the differences in the Traditions... and the one thing in common is The Imam..." These are His words and you are welcome to read what I and posted and they are dated also, so go on read where I had said something along the lines of me respecting the Ginans (the Traditions) and the one thing that binds us is The Imam. I would type the Whole Farman but would that be considered releasing the unauthorized Farmans?
I think the same Farman also made it clear that one life one soul and once this life is over the soul remains eternal (ruhani) and just in few words it was clear that no recycling of souls or so called reincarnation.

[star_munir]

Thats what I also believe..Not to say this tradition is of hinduism or not Islamic etc .....There must be respect for all Ismaili traditions including Holy Ginans.
As it is also in Farman of Hazir Imam that,"And to My Mombasa Jamat I say to you, live in unity I do not want division in My Jamat and I warn that division is the greatest possible weakness..." [Mombasa,Kenya 14 Dec 1973]

Also with regards to Ginans and thinking it as conversion tool only is not proper. It is right that from Ginans, Pir converted hindus and there are Ginanic verses regarding conversion like

"If these gods of yours are real, why do they not speak to you?"
[Ginan Putala verse 16 Pir Satgur Nur]

"He [Pir] gave religion to all the brahmins in complete manner."
[Garbi Gur-e-buleye ne marag bataviya verse 2, Pir Shams]

But besides this Ginans must be viewed with broader perspective and there is great knowledge on different topics as it is also Tafseer of Quran as per Farman so it is not just conversion tool. If it was just a conversion tool then most of the Ginans were composed at the time of Imam Kasim Shah and Imam Islam Shah i.e, long time ago so there would not be any need to continue it but the Farmans of Imam to continue this wonderful traditions shows its importance that it was not just for that era for newly converts but for all.
As it is in Ginan itself that there are mysteries of four Veds and four Kitabs in verses of Ginans.

[unnalhaq]

If it was just a conversion tool then most of the Ginans were composed at the time of Imam Kasim Shah and Imam Islam Shah i.e, long time ago so there would not be any need to continue it but the Farmans of Imam to continue this wonderful traditions shows its importance that it was not just for that era for newly converts but for all.
As it is in Ginan itself that there are mysteries of four Veds and four Kitabs in verses of Ginans.

I think the Jamet is still too young and it needs that support (ginan and ginanic references to Hinduism) or reinforcement.

I have no problem with you or others singing the ginans; it (ginans) should not be forced or pushed on to folks who are not of that Tradition. However, at the same time if another Ismaili form another tradition, other then Khoja-Tradition, whats to learn it should be welcomed. Unlike (I know many of you don't like the comparison between Imam's pictures and Ginans and I am sure you won't like this) the opposite that has been occurring in Eastern Canada where non-Khoja Jamet wants to enter into Life-Majlis and they are being turned away. Let me just add this to avoid some of the frustrated comment or questions you may have; The people who want to enter into the Majlis do understand what Life Majlis is about and perhaps they are well passed (esoterically speaking) passed the Fadi-Level beyond the Quarbani and most likely in to the Noorani-Level.

[ShamsB]

If it was just a conversion tool then most of the Ginans were composed at the time of Imam Kasim Shah and Imam Islam Shah i.e, long time ago so there would not be any need to continue it but the Farmans of Imam to continue this wonderful traditions shows its importance that it was not just for that era for newly converts but for all.
As it is in Ginan itself that there are mysteries of four Veds and four Kitabs in verses of Ginans.

I think the Jamet is still too young and it needs that support (ginan and ginanic references to Hinduism) or reinforcement.

I have no problem with you or others singing the ginans; it (ginans) should not be forced or pushed on to folks who are not of that Tradition. However, at the same time if another Ismaili form another tradition, other then Khoja-Tradition, whats to learn it should be welcomed. Unlike (I know many of you don't like the comparison between Imam's pictures and Ginans and I am sure you won't like this) the opposite that has been occurring in Eastern Canada where non-Khoja Jamet wants to enter into Life-Majlis and they are being turned away. Let me just add this to avoid some of the frustrated comment or questions you may have; The people who want to enter into the Majlis do understand what Life Majlis is about and perhaps they are well passed (esoterically speaking) passed the Fadi-Level beyond the Quarbani and most likely in to the Noorani-Level.

and vice versa unnal haq..we don't force you to learn ginans..the others don't force qasidas..that way we each maintain our separate traditions right...
btw..who's turning the non Khoja Jamat from Life Majlis...? the Majlis Mukhis? tariqah board...? on instruction from whom? the imam...
if they've passed the fadi level and are beyond the Noorani level (as per your statement)....then they don't need life majlis..they don't need any majlis except baitul Khayal...which is the highest majlis...
if you notice..no khoja person and non khoja person on here has said anything negative about the other non khoja traditions..on the contrary we have been of the opinion that all traditions have their places and rights to exist...your outlook and statements have been to the fact that your tradition is way ahead of the khoja tradition and we will evolve to your tradition..which i don't agree with..i think that there is a need to maintain all traditions because these are cultural and historical records of where each tradition came from..what it came thru and how it evolved....
once again..before you slam something..study it..try to understand it..and then debate it...it goes back to the arguement about the gita..you have been shooting your mouth off about ginan..star munir has done a great job of showing you where you lack knowledge in those areas...
btw..i'd honestly love to learn the dum ali qasidah that was sung in Vancouver..it was a beautiful qasidah..esp the last few word..do you have the translation of it that you could email me?

Thanks
Shams
ShamsB

[unnalhaq]

and vice versa unnal haq..we don't force you to learn ginans..the others don't force qasidas..that way we each maintain our separate traditions right...

You can maintain anything you please but now a days the world is getting smaller and smaller and to unite the Jamet across the globe there will be a need for common practice of the faith, though it may seem that it is in distant future but don't be surprised if that occurs sooner

btw..who's turning the non Khoja Jamat from Life Majlis...? the Majlis Mukhis? tariqah board...? on instruction from whom? the imam...

Some people whom (who were not allowed to join) I had run into, I met in Toronto and also in Vancouver. I don't think it was The Imam's instructions though it has been known that many people at the intuitional level use Imam's name in vain.

if they've passed the fadi level and are beyond the Noorani level (as per your statement)....then they don't need life majlis..they don't need any majlis except baitul Khayal...which is the highest majlis...

I think I had said esoterically speaking!!! You use the words but do you understand what esoteric means? You asked the good question why go from Noorani to Life? Have to you given a thought to "the balance" that Imam talks about and just may be these people who now have the means to offer through Life Majlis (I know $500UP PP is not that much).

if you notice..no khoja person and non khoja person on here has said anything negative about the other non khoja traditions..on the contrary we have been of the opinion that all traditions have their places and rights to exist...your outlook and statements have been to the fact that your tradition is way ahead of the khoja tradition and we will evolve to your tradition..which i don't agree with..i think that there is a need to maintain all traditions because these are cultural and historical records of where each tradition came from..what it came thru and how it evolved....
once again..before you slam something..study it..try to understand it..and then debate it...it goes back to the arguement about the gita..you have been shooting your mouth off about ginan..star munir has done a great job of showing you where you lack knowledge in those areas...

Maybe it is just me, how come everything has to be or you take it as a confrontational. As in regards to your comment above, lets for argument sake, tell the Ismailis with Jewish ancestors to go back to practicing or "marinating the traditions of" Judaism and Christian to Christianity and Hindu to Hinduism and so on and so fourth. I think that will further divide everyone. I think in it is no more necessary now than ever before that there shall be on common fait practice and after that you can go on to Dandia or Ginan Mehafils or Qusida Recital or Ballroom dancing; I am no way comparing Qusida Recital to Dandia but you get the point, I do hope you do.

btw..i'd honestly love to learn the dum ali qasidah that was sung in Vancouver..it was a beautiful qasidah..esp the last few word..do you have the translation of it that you could email me?

Can't promise that but I have to lookup (find) that Qusida first.

[star_munir]

There is importance of Pictures of Hazir Imam. Hazrat Muhammad [PBUH] said,"To look at Ali is worship." So its your worship if you Look at the face of Imam be it in photo or Deedar. As per Gita even angels wants to See His Deedar and as per Ginans when Hazrat Ali was born angels cam to see His deedar.
As per Syed Mohammed Shah,"People worship Raam or Rehman. The names or foams differ but in reality they are both from the same Light. The foolsih do not grasp the secret of all this."
As you wrote,"You can maintain anything you please but now a days the world is getting smaller and smaller and to unite the Jamet across the globe there will be a need for common practice of the faith" ok but as Shams B replied to you same I would like to repeat,"your outlook and statements have been to the fact that your tradition is way ahead of the khoja tradition and we will evolve to your tradition"
As you wrote,"I think the Jamet is still too young and it needs that support (ginan and ginanic references to Hinduism) or reinforcement. "


Ginans were not only meant for new converts but it is for all times.
There are many different tafseers of Quran. Ginans have tafseer of Quran from Ismaili point of view. Besides, Ginans gives lot of knowledge on different subjects like On concept of Pir e.g,
“O, Momins regard the Pirs as the progeny of Imams, It is due to the faith in this authority that you will over come the difficulties of crossing over the ocean of material existence.”
[Ginan Sab Ghat Sami maro verse 5, Pir Sadardin]
On Importance of Ginans e.g
“By understanding love I have composed these Ginans and have maintained patience in my heart. The real knowledge of the True Guide can only be attained or the real understanding of the Ginans of the True Guide can only be attained if one remains as spotless as water.”
[Ginan Sree Islam Shah amane malya verse 3, Pir Sadardin]
On concept of Allah/God e.g
“Everlasting is Allah, everlasting is the creator, ever lasting is the enduring and merciful one.”
[Ginan Avichal Allah avichal Khalaq verse 1, Pir Sadardin]
On Prophets e.g
“The [greatest] Grandfather Adam is regarded as the perfect and exalted. His devotions and meditations are considered to be of the gratest value.”
[Ginan sarve jeevuna jyaree verse 56, Pir Hassan Kabirdin]
About conversions e.g
“Bieng a hindu one worships stones. The Lord is not present there in. There is nothing in comparison to the true faith so keep real and true faith.”
[Ginan Anant Akhado verse 181, Pir Hassan Kabirdin]
On Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] e.g
“Accept Hazrat Nabi Muhammad as true Nabi and your imaan will remain strong.”
[Ginan Buj Niranjan, Pir Sadardin]
On Hazrat Ali e.g
“Murtaza Ali was born to Abu Talib in Baitullah which is in Mecca.”
[Ginan Moman chetamani verse 79, Syed Imam Shah]
On Hazrat Fatima e.g
“Hazrat Bini Fatima is regarded as pure [Sinless] and Seeta is her companion. Rabea is also in this distinguished group. They all are regarded as perfect in this age.”
[Anant Akhado verse 289, Pir Hassan Kabirdin]
On Quran e.g
“A poem was composed and propagated entirely by the Lord. It has remained today as Quran.”
[Ginan Sarvey jeev..verse 18, Pir Hassan Kabirdin]
On Miracles e.g
“O dear brothers, he [Harnakans] took Pahelaj and plunged him into the ocean. He was saved from the water by the Protector.”
[Ginan Pahelaj ne mataee verse 10, Pir Sadardin]
On History e.g
“It was year VS 1452 and month of Ramzan. Then the Lord Islam Shah had come to dwell in Kahak.”
[Ginan Sanvant chaudso ne bavan ]

On Love for Imam and Deedar e.g
“Hazir Imam’s Talika is read by Syed Indra Imamdin. Today joy in my heart does not remain within limit.”
[Ginan Shah na Khat avya verse 2, Syed Imam Shah]

On Concept of Imamat e.g
“O momins, Although from the exoteric point of view the Pir has shown you the Imam who resides physically in the Arabian Peninsula from the esoteric point of view regard Him to be ever present.”
[Ginan Sab ghat sami maro verse 4 Pir Sadardin]

About future of world e.g
“The places of worship will turn into places of sin. People’s heart will harden. Once in six months will they visit Jamat Khan. Thus no sins will be forgiven.”
[Ginan Moman Chetamani verse 50, Syed Imam Shah]

About creation of world e.g
“Know Light to be the formless which today is called the Manifest Lord. He created out of His own desire, brother the form and structure of the 14 universes.”
[Ginan Imanee aa jug manhei janeeya verse 3, Pir Shams]

On Rites and Ceremonies e.g
“On the true path remain truthful and keep the fast of the Shukarvari beej.”
[Ginan Sarve jeevun na jyaree verse 33, Pir Hassan Kabirdin]

etc etc
So Ginans were not for that period or for new concerts only.

[karimqazi]

YAM everybody,

My dear Unnalhaq, you forgot to mention the most powerful word in the farman of Mowlana Hazir Imam in Vancouver. Mowla mentioned that were are brothers and sisters, so concentrate on that wether you are iranian, afagani, syrian, khoja, mumna, or whatever, we are first of all brothers and sisters of each other. Do not forget that, this is our Mowla's word.

Kqazi

[alnoord]

If it was just a conversion tool then most of the Ginans were composed at the time of Imam Kasim Shah and Imam Islam Shah i.e, long time ago so there would not be any need to continue it but the Farmans of Imam to continue this wonderful traditions shows its importance that it was not just for that era for newly converts but for all.
As it is in Ginan itself that there are mysteries of four Veds and four Kitabs in verses of Ginans.

I think the Jamet is still too young and it needs that support (ginan and ginanic references to Hinduism) or reinforcement.

I have no problem with you or others singing the ginans; it (ginans) should not be forced or pushed on to folks who are not of that Tradition. However, at the same time if another Ismaili form another tradition, other then Khoja-Tradition, whats to learn it should be welcomed. Unlike (I know many of you don't like the comparison between Imam's pictures and Ginans and I am sure you won't like this) the opposite that has been occurring in Eastern Canada where non-Khoja Jamet wants to enter into Life-Majlis and they are being turned away. Let me just add this to avoid some of the frustrated comment or questions you may have; The people who want to enter into the Majlis do understand what Life Majlis is about and perhaps they are well passed (esoterically speaking) passed the Fadi-Level beyond the Quarbani and most likely in to the Noorani-Level.

and vice versa unnal haq..we don't force you to learn ginans..the others don't force qasidas..that way we each maintain our separate traditions right...
btw..who's turning the non Khoja Jamat from Life Majlis...? the Majlis Mukhis? tariqah board...? on instruction from whom? the imam...
if they've passed the fadi level and are beyond the Noorani level (as per your statement)....then they don't need life majlis..they don't need any majlis except baitul Khayal...which is the highest majlis...
if you notice..no khoja person and non khoja person on here has said anything negative about the other non khoja traditions..on the contrary we have been of the opinion that all traditions have their places and rights to exist...your outlook and statements have been to the fact that your tradition is way ahead of the khoja tradition and we will evolve to your tradition..which i don't agree with..i think that there is a need to maintain all traditions because these are cultural and historical records of where each tradition came from..what it came thru and how it evolved....
once again..before you slam something..study it..try to understand it..and then debate it...it goes back to the arguement about the gita..you have been shooting your mouth off about ginan..star munir has done a great job of showing you where you lack knowledge in those areas...
btw..i'd honestly love to learn the dum ali qasidah that was sung in Vancouver..it was a beautiful qasidah..esp the last few word..do you have the translation of it that you could email me?

Thanks
Shams
ShamsB

Here is a link to details of that qasida; http://www.ismaili.net/mirrors/253_dumh ... medum.html

Alnoor

[unnalhaq]

YAM everybody,

My dear Unnalhaq, you forgot to mention the most powerful word in the farman of Mowlana Hazir Imam in Vancouver. Mowla mentioned that were are brothers and sisters...

I think to get the record straight it was in Toronto PM(only) and I have to look and see if it was or not in Vancouver PM.

[ShamsB]

YAM everybody,

My dear Unnalhaq, you forgot to mention the most powerful word in the farman of Mowlana Hazir Imam in Vancouver. Mowla mentioned that were are brothers and sisters...

I think to get the record straight it was in Toronto PM(only) and I have to look and see if it was or not in Vancouver PM.

It was in vancouver PM as well..after the comment about the americans..
he mentioned that he didn't want one portion of the jamat to feel marginalized..or segregated..i will vouch for that...

ShamsB

[unnalhaq]

YAM everybody,

My dear Unnalhaq, you forgot to mention the most powerful word in the farman of Mowlana Hazir Imam in Vancouver. Mowla mentioned that were are brothers and sisters...

I think to get the record straight it was in Toronto PM(only) and I have to look and see if it was or not in Vancouver PM.

It was in vancouver PM as well..after the comment about the americans..
he mentioned that he didn't want one portion of the jamat to feel marginalized..or segregated..i will vouch for that...

ShamsB

No need to vouch. The important thing is that what what The Imam had ment by it.
". Our values of being brothers and sisters amongst us, our values of generosity, our values of integrity, our values of volunteerism, our values of ethics in the way you live in this material world because although you are small in numbers, you are growing in wisdom and in resources. And I believe that in the years ahead, you will have a significant impact on the global Jamet and the countries from which you have come or to which you will return."

[Seeker]

A general observation regarding the discussion on this thread:

I notice that often in defending the Ismaili tariqah, a mix of quotes and anecdotes is presented from the Quran, the sayings of Hazrat Ali (and some other early Imams), sayings of ISMS and MHI. In addition, Hindu texts are quoted, Pir writings in Indo-Pak are quoted, and even Christian scriptures are quoted.

Shouldnt the entire discussion on any issue be put to ease by sayings of the current MHI. Since Ismailis have him as Hazar Imam to show the way, by definition, there should be no need to resort to so many other confusing sources. Farmans should clarify everything. However, I do not find much clarity regarding most Farmans either...what is abrogated, what stays, what is new, what is available, what is not, etc. If the Hazar Imam is present, wouldnt one expect that the teachings would be crystal clear...and Ismailis would be most clear about their concepts, as compared to other sects/ religions. Why is there so little clarity, as evident on this forum? And this when Ismailis are supposed to use intellect?

In the end, we seem to resort to the fix-all excuse that this is a mystical tariqah, and therefore everything is unclear.

This forum is doing a great job of raising some of these issues, which have to come up in today's internet / information age.

I hope we ponder on this.

[unnalhaq]

A general observation regarding the discussion on this thread:

I notice that often in defending the Ismaili tariqah, a mix of quotes and anecdotes is presented from the Quran, the sayings of Hazrat Ali (and some other early Imams), sayings of ISMS and MHI. In addition, Hindu texts are quoted, Pir writings in Indo-Pak are quoted, and even Christian scriptures are quoted.

Shouldnt the entire discussion on any issue be put to ease by sayings of the current MHI. Since Ismailis have him as Hazar Imam to show the way, by definition, there should be no need to resort to so many other confusing sources.

I think many people who respond/post on the forum, do come from various different back ground/culture/traditions and that may be why so many different quotations. But as you may have noticed and may be why you may have raised this question. An example would be that at time folks would respond only by pirs writings and fail to mention that it is their understanding because on the tradition within Ismaili that they follow which does not necessarily encompasses of all of Ismailis.

Farmans should clarify everything. However, I do not find much clarity regarding most Farmans either...what is abrogated, what stays, what is new, what is available, what is not, etc. If the Hazar Imam is present, wouldnt one expect that the teachings would be crystal clear...and Ismailis would be most clear about their concepts, as compared to other sects/ religions. Why is there so little clarity, as evident on this forum? And this when Ismailis are supposed to use intellect?

As the Farmans of the present Imam and past Imams were region specific and were/are sensitive to social and political climates and in many cases folks like to imply them out of context, sort of to twist or to find loop holes. Hence the loss of clarity- Also, Imam keeps saying "intellect" and folks think its "ignorance" (I'd say may be poor editing job of the farman).

In the end, we seem to resort to the fix-all excuse that this is a mystical tariqah, and therefore everything is unclear.

You are telling me. I had it enough of the fix-all. I think it is lack of understanding on their part.[/quote]

This forum is doing a great job of raising some of these issues, which have to come up in today's internet / information age.

I think the Internet / information age has probably created a havoc amongst those who preach and give counts/facts that are just not there.
A good example would be (someone quoted this on this site also, probably from AbuAly) about two Hindu women (I am making the story short) who had dreamt and came by the Garden JK in Karachi in 2000 when The Imam was the and the rope broke and on and on. Well, I was in the Mid East and I had the opportunity to make a side trip to Karachi JUST FOR THIS! And guess what no such event took place!

[yaali101]

This forum is doing a great job of raising some of these issues, which have to come up in today's internet / information age.

I think the Internet / information age has probably created a havoc amongst those who preach and give counts/facts that are just not there.
A good example would be (someone quoted this on this site also, probably from AbuAly) about two Hindu women (I am making the story short) who had dreamt and came by the Garden JK in Karachi in 2000 when The Imam was the and the rope broke and on and on. Well, I was in the Mid East and I had the opportunity to make a side trip to Karachi JUST FOR THIS! And guess what no such event took place!

Are you saying that he was lying? I thought I heard about this story in a wa'az of Abu Aly. I never thought that he would not speak the truth - he is a well respected wa'azeen. BTW, how come people are so obsessed over Ginans? People support them and others say they were just used to convert people. I think the same can be said about the Koran - it is out of date and was used to convert many Arabs. I think we are forgetting the main point about our religion - it is far from Ginans, Koran, etc. It involves searching for the truth. Rumi, Mansoor, Jesus, etc. did not have Ginans or the Koran(Well, Mansoor did since he was sunni), but still they managed to understand God. All the Ginans, Koran, and even Farmans do is provide a guide for us to better ourselves and this way we will become pure and then can be enlightened. This is why we can have Ginans, the Koran, Qasidas, etc. and still all be ismailis. We should understand the real meaning behind all of these, and I guarantee you that it is all the same - Ya Ali.

[curious2]

Well, I was in the Mid East and I had the opportunity to make a side trip to Karachi JUST FOR THIS! And guess what no such event took place!

Who knows, Abu Aly may be trying to create a new myth on his own. What is so wrong with that? Just look at the essence, dear friend.

[curious2]

I think the same can be said about the Koran - it is out of date and was used to convert many Arabs. I think we are forgetting the main point about our religion - it is far from Ginans, Koran, etc. It involves searching for the truth. Rumi, Mansoor, Jesus, etc. did not have Ginans or the Koran(Well, Mansoor did since he was sunni), but still they managed to understand God. All the Ginans, Koran, and even Farmans do is provide a guide for us to better ourselves and this way we will become pure and then can be enlightened. This is why we can have Ginans, the Koran, Qasidas, etc. and still all be ismailis. We should understand the real meaning behind all of these, and I guarantee you that it is all the same - Ya Ali.

Okay, "Koran is outdated" Mashallah. And I'm assuming you are a khoja Ismaili? You got yourself landed at the right place. Cheers.

[kmaherali]

I think the Internet / information age has probably created a havoc amongst those who preach and give counts/facts that are just not there.
A good example would be (someone quoted this on this site also, probably from AbuAly) about two Hindu women (I am making the story short) who had dreamt and came by the Garden JK in Karachi in 2000 when The Imam was the and the rope broke and on and on. Well, I was in the Mid East and I had the opportunity to make a side trip to Karachi JUST FOR THIS! And guess what no such event took place!

The events actually took place in 1991 and not 2000. These were quoted at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c3966d0538

[al-azhar]

This forum is doing a great job of raising some of these issues, which have to come up in today's internet / information age.

I think the Internet / information age has probably created a havoc amongst those who preach and give counts/facts that are just not there.
A good example would be (someone quoted this on this site also, probably from AbuAly) about two Hindu women (I am making the story short) who had dreamt and came by the Garden JK in Karachi in 2000 when The Imam was the and the rope broke and on and on. Well, I was in the Mid East and I had the opportunity to make a side trip to Karachi JUST FOR THIS! And guess what no such event took place!

Are you saying that he was lying? I thought I heard about this story in a wa'az of Abu Aly. I never thought that he would not speak the truth - he is a well respected wa'azeen. BTW, how come people are so obsessed over Ginans? People support them and others say they were just used to convert people. I think the same can be said about the Koran - it is out of date and was used to convert many Arabs. I think we are forgetting the main point about our religion - it is far from Ginans, Koran, etc. It involves searching for the truth. Rumi, Mansoor, Jesus, etc. did not have Ginans or the Koran(Well, Mansoor did since he was sunni), but still they managed to understand God. All the Ginans, Koran, and even Farmans do is provide a guide for us to better ourselves and this way we will become pure and then can be enlightened. This is why we can have Ginans, the Koran, Qasidas, etc. and still all be ismailis. We should understand the real meaning behind all of these, and I guarantee you that it is all the same - Ya Ali.

yaali101: How can you say Mansoor was a sunni? He was a Sufi.

[unnalhaq]

Are you saying that he was lying? I thought I heard about this story in a wa'az of Abu Aly. I never thought that he would not speak the truth - he is a well respected wa'azeen.

YES.

Who knows, Abu Aly may be trying to create a new myth on his own. What is so wrong with that? Just look at the essence, dear friend.

Falsehood should not be the bases of teaching.

The events actually took place in 1991 and not 2000. These were quoted at:

I am sorry I may have miss quoted the year but just to reconfirm I was able to call upon my four out of 22 contacts from Garden East (Darkhana), Karachi and again- THIS NEVER HEPPENED- Did I mentioned that the four contacts I have included a Scouts Rover Captain (now in Dubai) and Jamet Khana Secretaries for Kharadar JK and Garden East (sorry I can not share one's names and #s).

BTW, how come people are so obsessed over Ginans? People support them and others say they were just used to convert people.

That may be because that is what was emphasized in their culture due to ancestral foundation point (conversion period) or heritage.

I think the same can be said about the Koran - it is out of date and was used to convert many Arabs.

I don't think Kuran was/is used as a conversion tool but as a guide through life.

I think we are forgetting the main point about our religion - it is far from Ginans, Koran, etc. It involves searching for the truth. Rumi, Mansoor, Jesus, etc. did not have Ginans or the Koran(Well, Mansoor did since he was sunni), .

RUMI too.

but still they managed to understand God.
All the Ginans, Koran, and even Farmans do is provide a guide for us to better ourselves and this way we will become pure and then can be enlightened. This is why we can have Ginans, the Koran, Qasidas, etc. and still all be ismailis. We should understand the real meaning behind all of these, and I guarantee you that it is all the same - Ya Ali.

I agree with you but I would not say “real meaning" but concept.

Okay, "Koran is outdated" Mashallah. And I'm assuming you are a khoja Ismaili? You got yourself landed at the right place.

I have learned over time that just assuming khoja would disenfranchises some other Ismailis from the Indian origins.

[curious2]

Falsehood should not be the bases of teaching.

Brother, I said myth, not teaching. There is nothing true or false when it comes to myths. Let us suppose for a moment that this incident is false, or it is someone's imagination. Now you tell me what is so wrong with this incident? (a) that it does not conform to your sets of beliefs? (b) you cannot corroborate the facts?

Either accept a or b, it does not much matter.

Cheers.

[unnalhaq]

Brother, I said myth, not teaching. There is nothing true or false when it comes to myths. Let us suppose for a moment that this incident is false, or it is someone's imagination. Now you tell me what is so wrong with this incident? (a) that it does not conform to your sets of beliefs? (b) you cannot corroborate the facts?

Either accept a or b, it does not much matter.

Cheers.

You are right; someone may be working on his own myth (Legendary narrative, usually of gods and heroes, or a theme that expresses the ideology of a culture). Please note gods and culture. Having said that- when missionaries go to JKs for the purpose of wayez (sorry can’t spell), you may want to call it Adult learning, going back to my point of teaching in this case teaching of falsehood
Now getting back to your question of whether I cannot corroborate the facts, well that is what I do for living research and give my best opinions to the policy makers (legislatures to be more precise). Since it is a feel good story articulated for a specific people of the culture. That reminds me of the posts of the person (as ADMIN , called him of having “mental retardness problems” and “pschyco” ), had made a point that this story is an example of, where something (a miracle) that some missionary touts about that took place in a far away land and where that supposed miracle took place no one there can verify of happening.
In the end I don’t agree with giving examples or making up myths or fables or false stories to reinforce faith.

[ShamsB]

Brother, I said myth, not teaching. There is nothing true or false when it comes to myths. Let us suppose for a moment that this incident is false, or it is someone's imagination. Now you tell me what is so wrong with this incident? (a) that it does not conform to your sets of beliefs? (b) you cannot corroborate the facts?

Either accept a or b, it does not much matter.

Cheers.

You are right; someone may be working on his own myth (Legendary narrative, usually of gods and heroes, or a theme that expresses the ideology of a culture). Please note gods and culture. Having said that- when missionaries go to JKs for the purpose of wayez (sorry can’t spell), you may want to call it Adult learning, going back to my point of teaching in this case teaching of falsehood
Now getting back to your question of whether I cannot corroborate the facts, well that is what I do for living research and give my best opinions to the policy makers (legislatures to be more precise). Since it is a feel good story articulated for a specific people of the culture. That reminds me of the posts of the person (as ADMIN , called him of having “mental retardness problems” and “pschyco” ), had made a point that this story is an example of, where something (a miracle) that some missionary touts about that took place in a far away land and where that supposed miracle took place no one there can verify of happening.
In the end I don’t agree with giving examples or making up myths or fables or false stories to reinforce faith.

Unnal Haq..

I have been trying to stay out of this..but I noticed one thing; you claim to be a researcher..however you haven't investigated the veracity of the claim that Abualy told that story...
Were you there? have you the tape where he is "allegedly" telling the "myth"?
Or are you basing it on "hearsay"?
I know you might have a personal vendatta against Abualy...but from what i know of you..you are a fair minded person...so I am hoping that you did do the due diligence on the original claim instead of taking it at face value.

Ya Ali Madat.

Shams

[unnalhaq]

Unnal Haq..

I have been trying to stay out of this..but I noticed one thing; you claim to be a researcher..however you haven't investigated the veracity of the claim that Abualy told that story...
Were you there? have you the tape where he is "allegedly" telling the "myth"?
Or are you basing it on "hearsay"?
I know you might have a personal vendatta against Abualy...but from what i know of you..you are a fair minded person...so I am hoping that you did do the due diligence on the original claim instead of taking it at face value.

Ya Ali Madat.

Shams

First I was researching the event not who said it when!!

Someone here had posted the story here and at that point he/she did not mention that it was Abualy who had originated the story. However, when I was replying to the post I had said that whom ever posted the story may have heard it from Abualy, since Abualy has been known for telling stories that don't have much truth to it. In this case there was a didar and nothing else of what was said took place.
I really don't care who says what as long as it is true, especially if it has to do with the faith.
kmaherali-
I forgot to thank you for the link of the past posts. I am not sure that is where I had read it but had I known of that post I had the opportunity to research the entire post. Maybe, some day soon. Can you please PM you email addr I have something to share

[ShamsB]

Unnal Haq..

I have been trying to stay out of this..but I noticed one thing; you claim to be a researcher..however you haven't investigated the veracity of the claim that Abualy told that story...
Were you there? have you the tape where he is "allegedly" telling the "myth"?
Or are you basing it on "hearsay"?
I know you might have a personal vendatta against Abualy...but from what i know of you..you are a fair minded person...so I am hoping that you did do the due diligence on the original claim instead of taking it at face value.

Ya Ali Madat.

Shams

First I was researching the event not who said it when!!

Someone here had posted the story here and at that point he/she did not mention that it was Abualy who had originated the story. However, when I was replying to the post I had said that whom ever posted the story may have heard it from Abualy, since Abualy has been known for telling stories that don't have much truth to it. In this case there was a didar and nothing else of what was said took place.
I really don't care who says what as long as it is true, especially if it has to do with the faith.
kmaherali-
I forgot to thank you for the link of the past posts. I am not sure that is where I had read it but had I known of that post I had the opportunity to research the entire post. Maybe, some day soon. Can you please PM you email addr I have something to share

First..let me thank you for the email you sent. Much enjoyed by all.
Like you I am not a Khoja Ismaili..however my point was that you are attributing something to Abualy when it might not have been him that said it in a waez. In regards to your other statement in regards to Abualy, is there any truth to your claim? can you cite examples?
I ask not because I am debating...

Shams