first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[shivaathervedi]

PREAMBLE IS FARMAN. Imam has explained the tenets of Islam and Ismailism for his followers and simultenously for non Ismailis to understand the Ismaili faith..

The constitution is not a Farman. A Farman is made to murids whereas the constitution is for the general public..

Here arise two situations, first Piratan seized after death of Prophet as he was last and final prophet as mentioned by Imam, or second is, that he was not Pir but the first pir should be Hazrat Hasan.

MSMS has made it very clear in his Farman:

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

Hazarat Hasan carried on the Prophet's role as the Pir...[/quote]


The question was related to Preamble and not whole constitution. The Ismaili constitution is meant for Ismailis and not common public to follow, though on organization level it is benefited for other communities also.
THE PREAMBLE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT DOCUMENT FOR ISMAILIS TO FOLLOW AND THE PUBLIC TO UNDERSTAND TENETS OF ISMAILISM.
The question is about the finality of Prophet Muhammad that he was the final Prophet of Allah. As he was the final Prophet so he is the final pir aslo of the prophetic cycle, therefore the first pir should be Pir Hazrat Hasan.
Do you have the copy of KUCHH NA FARMANO? This farman is also available in the book Ismaili Tariqa authored by Late Al Waiz Abu Ali page # 133. Please note in this farman MSMS has quoted Hazrat Hasan as IMAM.

[kmaherali]

THE PREAMBLE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT DOCUMENT FOR ISMAILIS TO FOLLOW AND THE PUBLIC TO UNDERSTAND TENETS OF ISMAILISM..

True, therefore since it is read by the public at large, it reflects the understanding applicable to the general public, i.e, our faith as it should be understood by others. For Ismailis, there is an added batini layer of understanding which is not meant for the others. This would include the notion of the eternity of Imamat and Piratan.

The question is about the finality of Prophet Muhammad that he was the final Prophet of Allah. As he was the final Prophet so he is the final pir aslo of the prophetic cycle, therefore the first pir should be Pir Hazrat Hasan.
Do you have the copy of KUCHH NA FARMANO? This farman is also available in the book Ismaili Tariqa authored by Late Al Waiz Abu Ali page # 133. Please note in this farman MSMS has quoted Hazrat Hasan as IMAM.

Since Hazarat Ali was the first Imam of the present cycle, then it follows that the Prophet was also the first Pir of the present cycle. This is reflected in the Farman - Hazarat Ali appoints the second Imam and Prophet Muhammad appoints the second Pir.

Hazarat Hasan was mentioned as the Imam Pir - not just the Imam. Imam Pir means he was the Imam (temporal leader of the Umma) as well as the Pir of the Ismailis. Just as the Prophet was the Prophet Pir.

[shivaathervedi]

THE PREAMBLE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT DOCUMENT FOR ISMAILIS TO FOLLOW AND THE PUBLIC TO UNDERSTAND TENETS OF ISMAILISM..

True, therefore since it is read by the public at large, it reflects the understanding applicable to the general public, i.e, our faith as it should be understood by others. For Ismailis, there is an added batini layer of understanding which is not meant for the others. This would include the notion of the eternity of Imamat and Piratan.

The question is about the finality of Prophet Muhammad that he was the final Prophet of Allah. As he was the final Prophet so he is the final pir aslo of the prophetic cycle, therefore the first pir should be Pir Hazrat Hasan.
Do you have the copy of KUCHH NA FARMANO? This farman is also available in the book Ismaili Tariqa authored by Late Al Waiz Abu Ali page # 133. Please note in this farman MSMS has quoted Hazrat Hasan as IMAM.

Since Hazarat Ali was the first Imam of the present cycle, then it follows that the Prophet was also the first Pir of the present cycle. This is reflected in the Farman - Hazarat Ali appoints the second Imam and Prophet Muhammad appoints the second Pir.

Hazarat Hasan was mentioned as the Imam Pir - not just the Imam. Imam Pir means he was the Imam (temporal leader of the Umma) as well as the Pir of the Ismailis. Just as the Prophet was the Prophet Pir.

According to Ismaili philosophy 6 cycles started with Natiq and not with Asas.
Therefore Prophet will come first in linage followed by Asas.
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI
TOU TAMEY PAMO IMAM.
You wrote," Hazrat Hasan was mentioned as Imam pir", now this analogy should be applied to Prophet Muhammad also according to your statement. Therefore Prophet Muhammad should be considered as Imam also. For temporal leadership Hazrat Hasan should be called Khalifah and not Imam as at that time Amirul mu'mineen Mowla Ali was alive.
You did not answered that whether you have a copy of Kuchh na Farmano?
In Preamble there is no mention of pir or piratan. This important institution should have been mentioned by Imam as he clearified other issues.

[kmaherali]

According to Ismaili philosophy 6 cycles started with Natiq and not with Asas.
Therefore Prophet will come first in linage followed by Asas.
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI
TOU TAMEY PAMO IMAM.
You wrote," Hazrat Hasan was mentioned as Imam pir", now this analogy should be applied to Prophet Muhammad also according to your statement. Therefore Prophet Muhammad should be considered as Imam also. For temporal leadership Hazrat Hasan should be called Khalifah and not Imam as at that time Amirul mu'mineen Mowla Ali was alive.
You did not answered that whether you have a copy of Kuchh na Farmano?
In Preamble there is no mention of pir or piratan. This important institution should have been mentioned by Imam as he clearified other issues.

According to Satpanth Ismailism Imamat is eternal and continuous and it pre-existed Hazarat Adam, whereas prophethood is not continuous and restricted to certain times. The notion of 6 natiqs is incomplete because it does not consider all the prophets sent to mankind. MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."

The notion of 6 Natiqs, is a zaheri concept popular in the Middle East understanding of Islam. The notion of continuous Imamat is a batini concept. It would be interesting to note that the 6 prophets were never mentioned in the Old Dua but the names of the Imams prior to Hazarat Aly were mentioned including the Das Avtaars. Imamat and Piratan are eternal whereas prophethood is incidental subject to the needs of the time.

Hence Prophet Muhammad was foremost a Pir. The role of prophethood was added to it. Through the Pir one comes to know the Imamat in its essence, hence first we must recognize the Pir in order to know the Imam and hence Nabi Muhammad bujo bhai, to tame paamo Imam.

Prophet Muhammad is known by the entire Umma as the Rasullullah. The majority of the Muslims do not know the notion of Imamat hence he cannot be called the Imam. Hazarat Hasan was considered and is considered by Shias as the second Imam and hence he is generally regarded in the Shia world as the Imam just as Hazarat Ali. Hence the Imam called him Pir Imam - Pir for the Ismailis and Imam for the rest of the Shias. Hazarat Hasan assumed khalifat after the death of Hazarat Ali so he was considered by the general Shias as the Imam - the inheritor of Hazarat Ali. This however was not true of Ismailis. For them he was the Pir.

I don't have the book with me, but Abually Missionary had mentioned it as a reference. Piratan is not a concept that is necessary for others to know. It can create ambiguity and confusion for others. It is only applicable if you do not consider the Imam as the inheritor of the Prophet which goes against the articulation in the constitution.

From the zaheri perspective the Prophet designated Hazart Ali. From the batini perspective the Imam appoints the Pir who also was the Prophet.

[shivaathervedi]

According to Ismaili philosophy 6 cycles started with Natiq and not with Asas.
Therefore Prophet will come first in linage followed by Asas.
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI
TOU TAMEY PAMO IMAM.
You wrote," Hazrat Hasan was mentioned as Imam pir", now this analogy should be applied to Prophet Muhammad also according to your statement. Therefore Prophet Muhammad should be considered as Imam also. For temporal leadership Hazrat Hasan should be called Khalifah and not Imam as at that time Amirul mu'mineen Mowla Ali was alive.
You did not answered that whether you have a copy of Kuchh na Farmano?
In Preamble there is no mention of pir or piratan. This important institution should have been mentioned by Imam as he clearified other issues.

According to Satpanth Ismailism Imamat is eternal and continuous and it pre-existed Hazarat Adam, whereas prophethood is not continuous and restricted to certain times. The notion of 6 natiqs is incomplete because it does not consider all the prophets sent to mankind. MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."

The notion of 6 Natiqs, is a zaheri concept popular in the Middle East understanding of Islam. The notion of continuous Imamat is a batini concept. It would be interesting to note that the 6 prophets were never mentioned in the Old Dua but the names of the Imams prior to Hazarat Aly were mentioned including the Das Avtaars. Imamat and Piratan are eternal whereas prophethood is incidental subject to the needs of the time.

Hence Prophet Muhammad was foremost a Pir. The role of prophethood was added to it. Through the Pir one comes to know the Imamat in its essence, hence first we must recognize the Pir in order to know the Imam and hence Nabi Muhammad bujo bhai, to tame paamo Imam.

Prophet Muhammad is known by the entire Umma as the Rasullullah. The majority of the Muslims do not know the notion of Imamat hence he cannot be called the Imam. Hazarat Hasan was considered and is considered by Shias as the second Imam and hence he is generally regarded in the Shia world as the Imam just as Hazarat Ali. Hence the Imam called him Pir Imam - Pir for the Ismailis and Imam for the rest of the Shias. Hazarat Hasan assumed khalifat after the death of Hazarat Ali so he was considered by the general Shias as the Imam - the inheritor of Hazarat Ali. This however was not true of Ismailis. For them he was the Pir.

I don't have the book with me, but Abually Missionary had mentioned it as a reference. Piratan is not a concept that is necessary for others to know. It can create ambiguity and confusion for others. It is only applicable if you do not consider the Imam as the inheritor of the Prophet which goes against the articulation in the constitution.

From the zaheri perspective the Prophet designated Hazart Ali. From the batini perspective the Imam appoints the Pir who also was the Prophet.

In my opinion the sensitive issues should be understood in simple way and not in zigzag order. You keep jumping from batin to zahir and zahir to batin making the issues more complicated.
You wrote 6 cycle theory is incomplete. But in my opinion it is complete because both Natiq and Asas were/are present though change is Natiq and Asas in present dar is merged, but the cycle still continued.
If cycle is Zahiri as you wrote the who are the batini figures. Also who is the IMAM MUQEEM in present day.
You quote from Memoirs. MSMS wrote the names you mentioned like Budha, Kirshan ji and Ram ji were messengers. This imply they were pirs according to Sutpunthi literature, because a messenger or prophet is treated as pir in Sutpunthi literature. MSMS in his farman used the words Pir Imam, now as Hazrat Hasan was Pir Imam that same will be applied to Prophet therefore he was Imam also. A = B therefore B=A.
I can't find KUCHH NA FARMANO, may be they are classified like KIM and not allowed in Jk for reading.
THERE IS NO MENTION OF 6 CYCLES OR NATIQ/ASAS THEORY IN GINANS, MEANS SATPUTHIS DO NOT ACCEPT OR FOLLOW.

[kmaherali]

In my opinion the sensitive issues should be understood in simple way and not in zigzag order. You keep jumping from batin to zahir and zahir to batin making the issues more complicated..

Our tariqah is an esoteric and dynamic one. The understanding will evolve as a person travels along the path. It cannot be a static one time understanding. There are levels of understanding. That is the reason the Imam made the Farman:

"Remember also that with regard to the interpretation of our faith, that which is Batin is Batin, that which is Zahir is Zahir. Remember that this is fundamental. And this is the Farman which I have given you today. And I wish that there should be no confusion."

So there is a zaheri understanding applicable to everyone and there is a batini understanding within the tariqah.

You wrote 6 cycle theory is incomplete. But in my opinion it is complete because both Natiq and Asas were/are present though change is Natiq and Asas in present dar is merged, but the cycle still continued..

If it is complete who were the Natiqs and Asas before Hazarat Adam?

If cycle is Zahiri as you wrote the who are the batini figures. Also who is the IMAM MUQEEM in present day..

The Imam Muqeem (permanent Imam) is the MHI.

You quote from Memoirs. MSMS wrote the names you mentioned like Budha, Kirshan ji and Ram ji were messengers. This imply they were pirs according to Sutpunthi literature, because a messenger or prophet is treated as pir in Sutpunthi literature...

Prophet Muhamad was also the Ismaili Pir. However, it does not follow that all prophets were Pirs.

MSMS in his farman used the words Pir Imam, now as Hazrat Hasan was Pir Imam that same will be applied to Prophet therefore he was Imam also. A = B therefore B=A..

As I said the world regards the Prophet as the Prophet. Most Sunnis don't have a concept of Imam. They even translate Imam Mubeen as the book! Hence it is not appropriate to call Prophet Muhammad the Imam. That would create confusion in the Umma and indeed the Jamat.

I can't find KUCHH NA FARMANO, may be they are classified like KIM and not allowed in Jk for reading. .

Perhaps, I don't know.

THERE IS NO MENTION OF 6 CYCLES OR NATIQ/ASAS THEORY IN GINANS, MEANS SATPUTHIS DO NOT ACCEPT OR FOLLOW.

In Satpanth Ismailism, Imams are Supreme and hence considering Imams as Asas does not make sense. In my view the Natiq/Asas is a zaheri concept. From the Batini we have the notion of ShahPir.

[shivaathervedi]

In my opinion the sensitive issues should be understood in simple way and not in zigzag order. You keep jumping from batin to zahir and zahir to batin making the issues more complicated..

Our tariqah is an esoteric and dynamic one. The understanding will evolve as a person travels along the path. It cannot be a static one time understanding. There are levels of understanding. That is the reason the Imam made the Farman:

"Remember also that with regard to the interpretation of our faith, that which is Batin is Batin, that which is Zahir is Zahir. Remember that this is fundamental. And this is the Farman which I have given you today. And I wish that there should be no confusion."

So there is a zaheri understanding applicable to everyone and there is a batini understanding within the tariqah.

You wrote 6 cycle theory is incomplete. But in my opinion it is complete because both Natiq and Asas were/are present though change is Natiq and Asas in present dar is merged, but the cycle still continued..

If it is complete who were the Natiqs and Asas before Hazarat Adam?

If cycle is Zahiri as you wrote the who are the batini figures. Also who is the IMAM MUQEEM in present day..

The Imam Muqeem (permanent Imam) is the MHI.

You quote from Memoirs. MSMS wrote the names you mentioned like Budha, Kirshan ji and Ram ji were messengers. This imply they were pirs according to Sutpunthi literature, because a messenger or prophet is treated as pir in Sutpunthi literature...

Prophet Muhamad was also the Ismaili Pir. However, it does not follow that all prophets were Pirs.

MSMS in his farman used the words Pir Imam, now as Hazrat Hasan was Pir Imam that same will be applied to Prophet therefore he was Imam also. A = B therefore B=A..

As I said the world regards the Prophet as the Prophet. Most Sunnis don't have a concept of Imam. They even translate Imam Mubeen as the book! Hence it is not appropriate to call Prophet Muhammad the Imam. That would create confusion in the Umma and indeed the Jamat.

I can't find KUCHH NA FARMANO, may be they are classified like KIM and not allowed in Jk for reading. .

Perhaps, I don't know.

THERE IS NO MENTION OF 6 CYCLES OR NATIQ/ASAS THEORY IN GINANS, MEANS SATPUTHIS DO NOT ACCEPT OR FOLLOW.

In Satpanth Ismailism, Imams are Supreme and hence considering Imams as Asas does not make sense. In my view the Natiq/Asas is a zaheri concept. From the Batini we have the notion of ShahPir.

Our Tariqa is not only esoteric but same time it is exoteric Tariqa also. A word has meaning. No word no meaning. Word is zahir and meaning is batin, therefore for meaning the word should be upfront which is zahir. In spiritualism, we travel from zahir to batin.
In Ismaili philosophy the status of Imam Muqeem is higher than Imam mustaqqar.
You wrote," Imams are supreme and hence considering Imam as Asas does not make sense". But in Last cycle Ali is considered Asas.
If SHAH/PIR is in batin than who is Zahir to guide community.
You know the word pir is not available in Arabic literature and is not used in Quran, Ahadith, and sayings of Ali then how come we are using word pir for Prophet. Considering pir as prophet first started in Satpunthi literature. Prophet Muhammad is not only Rasullulah but all Muslims consider him as IMAMUL MUSLIMIN also.
We have 2 models or say 2 types of philosophies one pro Alamout and other post Alamout. In pro Alamout in Fatimid era Dais explained six cycles starting with Adam, and we have six 6 sets of Natiq and Asas. In post Alamout period, the Satpunthi philosophy of Natiq and Asas is extended to beginning of Universe. In Satpunthi literature Natiq and Asas is replaced by Shah and Pir.
In Fatimid era messengers are counted 124000, and in Satpunthi literature messengers are counted 80 millions. I agree all messengers were not Natiqs, but keeping in mind figure of 80 millions there should be thousands of thousands cycles of Natiq and Asas.
Now important question; IS NATIQ/ASAS PHILOSOPHY PART OF SATPUNTHI/ISMAILI FAITH?

[Admin]

Please stick to the subject of the thread. These discussions on Asas and Natiq and Shah and Pir should be moved to appropriate threads.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
The sesh naag has not understood many words at all in the preamble.
the word 'tawhid' attached to shahada encompasses all of truth and baatin concept of our faith and practice as well.
Constitution is a binding documents to bring all definition in legal terminology mainly for use by AKDN network to present to governments
where they operate now or in future.
It is not a Farman by ANY CHANCE ,it is an important document of of public domain.
No need for for a shallow zahiri with low common sense and zero perception of our faith and baatin perception to to go gaga over words in constitution with poor understanding and its acceptance in the first place.

I feel Admin must troughly vet the quality of each blog before it appear,strict bench mark would see 66% blogs not appearing at all. this is the need of the hour.

[kmaherali]

Please stick to the subject of the thread. These discussions on Asas and Natiq and Shah and Pir should be moved to appropriate threads.

The discussion about Asas and Natiq is proper for this thread. The Preamble defines the role and the position of the Imam viz a viz the Prophet and the message of Allah. It is a zaheri perspective of the relationship between the Imam and the Prophet and mirrors the Natiq and Asas notions.

[kmaherali]

Our Tariqa is not only esoteric but same time it is exoteric Tariqa also. A word has meaning. No word no meaning. Word is zahir and meaning is batin, therefore for meaning the word should be upfront which is zahir. In spiritualism, we travel from zahir to batin.
In Ismaili philosophy the status of Imam Muqeem is higher than Imam mustaqqar.?

No one has said that our tariqah is entirely batin. We live in the zaher and hence need to have concepts that define our relationship with the others. We cannot live in a vacuum. According to the definition, Muqeem means non-traveller. How can a non-traveller be better than mustaqqar.

You wrote," Imams are supreme and hence considering Imam as Asas does not make sense". But in Last cycle Ali is considered Asas.

You have quoted half sentence. I said "in Satpanth Ismailism Imams are Supreme - Nirinjan and hence considering the Imam as Asas does not make sense." Remember you asked about whether Satpanthis follow the Natiqs and Asas and I responded accordingly. Ali being the Asas in the last cycle is a zaheri aspect of our faith which is also reflected in the constitution. The satpanth Ismailism I consider as the batin aspect of our faith.

If SHAH/PIR is in batin than who is Zahir to guide community.?

The Shah and Pir are batini concepts, their equivalent zaheri concept would be Asas and Natiq. From the batini the Imam is Nirinjan and the Pir is the Noor. From the zaher, the Prophet is the Natiq and the Imam is the wasi - inheritor. The Imam is still the guide but seen from the batin he is the Pir, seen from the zaher he is the Imam (the zaher does not have the notion of pir)

You know the word pir is not available in Arabic literature and is not used in Quran, Ahadith, and sayings of Ali then how come we are using word pir for Prophet. Considering pir as prophet first started in Satpunthi literature. Prophet Muhammad is not only Rasullulah but all Muslims consider him as IMAMUL MUSLIMIN also.

Why do we have to follow the Islam based on the Prophet when Ismailism and the notion of Piratan has existed since creation? Most Muslims consider the primary role of the Prophet as the Messenger from Allah, the one who passed on the revelations to mankind. The leadership role was secondary.

IS NATIQ/ASAS PHILOSOPHY PART OF SATPUNTHI/ISMAILI FAITH?

As I have said above the notion of Asas does not make sense when the Imam is the Nirinjan - God himself!

[shivaathervedi]

We have 2 models or say 2 types of philosophies one pro Alamout and other post Alamout. In pro Alamout in Fatimid era Dais explained six cycles starting with Adam, and we have six 6 sets of Natiq and Asas. In post Alamout period, the Satpunthi philosophy of Natiq and Asas is extended to beginning of Universe. In Satpunthi literature Natiq and Asas is replaced by Shah and Pir.
In Fatimid era messengers are counted 124000, and in Satpunthi literature messengers are counted 80 millions. I agree all messengers were not Natiqs, but keeping in mind figure of 80 millions there should be thousands of thousands cycles of Natiq and Asas.


Appreciate if you have shed light on my this paragraph.

[shivaathervedi]

Our Tariqa is not only esoteric but same time it is exoteric Tariqa also. A word has meaning. No word no meaning. Word is zahir and meaning is batin, therefore for meaning the word should be upfront which is zahir. In spiritualism, we travel from zahir to batin.
In Ismaili philosophy the status of Imam Muqeem is higher than Imam mustaqqar.?

No one has said that our tariqah is entirely batin. We live in the zaher and hence need to have concepts that define our relationship with the others. We cannot live in a vacuum. According to the definition, Muqeem means non-traveller. How can a non-traveller be better than mustaqqar.

You wrote," Imams are supreme and hence considering Imam as Asas does not make sense". But in Last cycle Ali is considered Asas.

You have quoted half sentence. I said "in Satpanth Ismailism Imams are Supreme - Nirinjan and hence considering the Imam as Asas does not make sense." Remember you asked about whether Satpanthis follow the Natiqs and Asas and I responded accordingly. Ali being the Asas in the last cycle is a zaheri aspect of our faith which is also reflected in the constitution. The satpanth Ismailism I consider as the batin aspect of our faith.

If SHAH/PIR is in batin than who is Zahir to guide community.?

The Shah and Pir are batini concepts, their equivalent zaheri concept would be Asas and Natiq. From the batini the Imam is Nirinjan and the Pir is the Noor. From the zaher, the Prophet is the Natiq and the Imam is the wasi - inheritor. The Imam is still the guide but seen from the batin he is the Pir, seen from the zaher he is the Imam (the zaher does not have the notion of pir)

You know the word pir is not available in Arabic literature and is not used in Quran, Ahadith, and sayings of Ali then how come we are using word pir for Prophet. Considering pir as prophet first started in Satpunthi literature. Prophet Muhammad is not only Rasullulah but all Muslims consider him as IMAMUL MUSLIMIN also.

Why do we have to follow the Islam based on the Prophet when Ismailism and the notion of Piratan has existed since creation? Most Muslims consider the primary role of the Prophet as the Messenger from Allah, the one who passed on the revelations to mankind. The leadership role was secondary.

IS NATIQ/ASAS PHILOSOPHY PART OF SATPUNTHI/ISMAILI FAITH?

As I have said above the notion of Asas does not make sense when the Imam is the Nirinjan - God himself!

According to Ismaili philosophy Imam Muqeem ( means stationed) is guide and teacher to Natiq.
Hazrat Abu Talib was Imam Muqeem to Natiq as Imam Hunaid was Imam muqeem to Prophet Adam.
What is meaning of Nirinjin? Nirinjin is beyond comprehension, beyond faculties of senses and Aql. We can't see Him, we can't touch Him, we can not walk and talk with Him. Imam is His representative, Wasila,and intercessor to guide humanity on whole and not a section of limited people.
We call every Imam Ali, as Ali was Asas therefore every Imam can be called Asas because cycle is not completed.
Not only Ismailis but all Muslims confirm that Noor e Muhammadi exists from primordial times. LOU LAAK LAMA KHALAQTUL AFLAAQ or AWWALU KHALAK ALLAH NOORI.
You wrote," in Satpunthi Ismailism Imams are supreme- Nirinjin and hence considering the Imam as Asas does not make sense". From your sentence I assume Imam as Nirinjin is accepted by a section of Ismailis and not by all Ismailis as you wrote' in Satpunth Ismailism Imams are supreme- Nirinjin'.
As I know mostly Ismailis out side Satpunthi culture do not accept Imam as Nirijin but Noor of Supreme Allah.

[kmaherali]

We have 2 models or say 2 types of philosophies one pro Alamout and other post Alamout. In pro Alamout in Fatimid era Dais explained six cycles starting with Adam, and we have six 6 sets of Natiq and Asas. In post Alamout period, the Satpunthi philosophy of Natiq and Asas is extended to beginning of Universe. In Satpunthi literature Natiq and Asas is replaced by Shah and Pir.

Fatimid period can be considered as the zaheri phase of our history in which we were increasingly exposed to the Umma at large, hence the notion of 6 Natiqs and Asas was predominant at least in the main sources. Post Alamut period can be considered as a batini phase in which we did not have to bother what other Muslims felt and hence we were more freer to articulate the batini concepts.

In Fatimid era messengers are counted 124000, and in Satpunthi literature messengers are counted 80 millions. I agree all messengers were not Natiqs, but keeping in mind figure of 80 millions there should be thousands of thousands cycles of Natiq and Asas.

Where did you get the figure of 80 millions from? Please quote sources.

In a verse of Anant Akhado it is stated:

Aashaajee Ek laakh ne chovees hazaar
Saheb pegambar theeyaa ji
sinter so so Husseini chadd-she
em Shah asur ne kape....................Haree anant...12

Oh Lord One hundred and twenty four thousand
Holy prophets have existed
Seventy hundreds Huseinis(followers of Imam Husein) will rise
and in that manner, the Lord will severe the faithless
Haree You are eternal

In my opinion 124,000 is just a figurative expression to indicate many many prophets. It does not mean exact number.

[kmaherali]

What is meaning of Nirinjin? Nirinjin is beyond comprehension, beyond faculties of senses and Aql. We can't see Him, we can't touch Him, we can not walk and talk with Him.

Nirinjan means unknowable and without attributes - Divine Essence. The Imam is the Mazhar of Divine Essence hence in Ginans he is referred to as Nirinjan:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning, is indeed in the form of Aly.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22935

Imam is His representative, Wasila,and intercessor to guide humanity on whole and not a section of limited people..

The notion of Imam as wasila is a zaheri concept. From the Batin the Pir is the wasila, the Imam being the Niranjan. But it does not matter which ever way you look at it, the Imam functions as a wasila, whether as the Pir or the Imam. In Satpanth Ismailism the Imam is both the wasila (Pir) and Nirinjan (Shah).

We call every Imam Ali, as Ali was Asas therefore every Imam can be called Asas because cycle is not completed.
Not only Ismailis but all Muslims confirm that Noor e Muhammadi exists from primordial times. LOU LAAK LAMA KHALAQTUL AFLAAQ or AWWALU KHALAK ALLAH NOORI...

That is the zaheri understanding as per constitution. From the batin, it is the Pir who performs the role of the Bearer of the Noor, Imam being the Nrinjan.

You wrote," in Satpunthi Ismailism Imams are supreme- Nirinjin and hence considering the Imam as Asas does not make sense". From your sentence I assume Imam as Nirinjin is accepted by a section of Ismailis and not by all Ismailis as you wrote' in Satpunth Ismailism Imams are supreme- Nirinjin'.
As I know mostly Ismailis out side Satpunthi culture do not accept Imam as Nirijin but Noor of Supreme Allah.

Not necessarily, many qasidas consider Ali as equivalent to Allah. Nasir Khusraw in his Kalame Pir has said:
"The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

[shivaathervedi]

We have 2 models or say 2 types of philosophies one pro Alamout and other post Alamout. In pro Alamout in Fatimid era Dais explained six cycles starting with Adam, and we have six 6 sets of Natiq and Asas. In post Alamout period, the Satpunthi philosophy of Natiq and Asas is extended to beginning of Universe. In Satpunthi literature Natiq and Asas is replaced by Shah and Pir.

Fatimid period can be considered as the zaheri phase of our history in which we were increasingly exposed to the Umma at large, hence the notion of 6 Natiqs and Asas was predominant at least in the main sources. Post Alamut period can be considered as a batini phase in which we did not have to bother what other Muslims felt and hence we were more freer to articulate the batini concepts.

In Fatimid era messengers are counted 124000, and in Satpunthi literature messengers are counted 80 millions. I agree all messengers were not Natiqs, but keeping in mind figure of 80 millions there should be thousands of thousands cycles of Natiq and Asas.

Where did you get the figure of 80 millions from? Please quote sources.

In a verse of Anant Akhado it is stated:

Aashaajee Ek laakh ne chovees hazaar
Saheb pegambar theeyaa ji
sinter so so Husseini chadd-she
em Shah asur ne kape....................Haree anant...12

Oh Lord One hundred and twenty four thousand
Holy prophets have existed
Seventy hundreds Huseinis(followers of Imam Husein) will rise
and in that manner, the Lord will severe the faithless
Haree You are eternal

In my opinion 124,000 is just a figurative expression to indicate many many prophets. It does not mean exact number.

It is wrong to say batini period started after post Alamout era. In Islam batini ta'limat was induced from beginning. For example in time of Prophet Muhammad majalis of Ashab e Sufa, in Khilafat of Mowla Ali and before batini majalis happened. Also in time of Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq there is historical proof of Batini Ta'limat same way there is proof of batini majalis administered in Fatimid period in Egypt and Yemen. Just to say that Fatimid period was zahiri therefore politically things were different and Imams of that time wanted to appease the masses.
IF SHAH AND PIR ARE FROM BEGINNING THEN BATINI TA'LIMAT SHOULD BE FROM BEGINNING.
There are two different versions about numbers of Paigambers in Ginans. Which is correct? 124000 is a confirmed number available inIslamic history, Ahadith, Fatimi literature and in Ginans. Let me quote;

LAGI REY PIR PAIGAMBER NEY
WARRI EK LAAKH EENSI HAJAAR
DEH KASSO POTA TANU
TE MA ANTAR NATHI LAGAAR
(PIR SATGUR NOOR)

EK LAAKH NEY CHOVEES HAJAAR
MAA(N)HE PAIGAMBER SARDAR
NABI MUHAMMAD ARAJ KARSHEY
SAHEB SUNO FARIYAAD
(PIR SADARDIN)

AASHAJI EK LAAKH NEU CHOVEES HAJAAR
SAHEB PAIGAMBER THAYA JI
(PIR HASAN KABIRUDDIN)

Two satadari pirs said 124000 paigambers and other satadari pir said 180000 paigambers. Let readers of this post decide. Just to say these are merely figurative numbers not helpful. Researchers and educated persons won't take it lightly.

[shivaathervedi]

shivaathervedi wrote:

In Fatimid era messengers are counted 124000, and in Satpunthi literature messengers are counted 80 millions. I agree all messengers were not Natiqs, but keeping in mind figure of 80 millions there should be thousands of thousands cycles of Natiq and Asas.

Kmaherali:
Where did you get the figure of 80 millions from? Please quote sources.


Reply;

EJI ASHTT KROR BRAHMA AAGEY TE UPPAYA
TENEY TARO AN(N)T NA JAANIYO HO SAHEB JI.

Before that created 8 kror (80 millions) brahmas (pirs),but even they knew not your mystery.
Please look at the second line, even pirs were helpless to know reality of the supreme God of universe. With reference to above part of ginan in my opinion status of pir is lower than Imam. It is a separate issue that Currently piratan is merged with Imamat.

[shivaathervedi]

What is meaning of Nirinjin? Nirinjin is beyond comprehension, beyond faculties of senses and Aql. We can't see Him, we can't touch Him, we can not walk and talk with Him.

Nirinjan means unknowable and without attributes - Divine Essence. The Imam is the Mazhar of Divine Essence hence in Ginans he is referred to as Nirinjan:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning, is indeed in the form of Aly.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22935

Imam is His representative, Wasila,and intercessor to guide humanity on whole and not a section of limited people..

The notion of Imam as wasila is a zaheri concept. From the Batin the Pir is the wasila, the Imam being the Niranjan. But it does not matter which ever way you look at it, the Imam functions as a wasila, whether as the Pir or the Imam. In Satpanth Ismailism the Imam is both the wasila (Pir) and Nirinjan (Shah).

We call every Imam Ali, as Ali was Asas therefore every Imam can be called Asas because cycle is not completed.
Not only Ismailis but all Muslims confirm that Noor e Muhammadi exists from primordial times. LOU LAAK LAMA KHALAQTUL AFLAAQ or AWWALU KHALAK ALLAH NOORI...

That is the zaheri understanding as per constitution. From the batin, it is the Pir who performs the role of the Bearer of the Noor, Imam being the Nrinjan.

You wrote," in Satpunthi Ismailism Imams are supreme- Nirinjin and hence considering the Imam as Asas does not make sense". From your sentence I assume Imam as Nirinjin is accepted by a section of Ismailis and not by all Ismailis as you wrote' in Satpunth Ismailism Imams are supreme- Nirinjin'.
As I know mostly Ismailis out side Satpunthi culture do not accept Imam as Nirijin but Noor of Supreme Allah.

Not necessarily, many qasidas consider Ali as equivalent to Allah. Nasir Khusraw in his Kalame Pir has said:
"The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

It is an easy formula to switch from zahir to batin and batin to zahir. You wrote," from batin it is the pir who performs the role of bearer of Noor, Imam being Nirijin". Your are confusing readers and your statement is contradicting. If pir is bearer of Noor then why we call Imam "Noor Mowlana Shah Karim Al Hussaini". If he is Nirinjin how come all of us see him when he should be invisible being Nirinjin!!
In Du'a the word Pir is not used, the words used are "WA BI HAQQI MOWLANA WA IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD SHAH KARIM ALHUSSAINI......"
In none of his books Nasir Khusraw wrote that Imam Mustansirbillah was Allah. You already admitted, he wrote," The Imam is the Hujjat or proof of God" So Imam is Hujjat of WHO, and that is Allah and not Allah himself.
Prophet Muhammad said about Mowla Ali," Ana madinatul ilm wa Aliyun babuha". Look at the wordings ALIYUN BABUHA, and Imam SADIQ said "NAHNU BABULLAH", means we (the Imams) are door to Allah. Therefore Imams are intercessor or wasila towards Nirinjin.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad.
The sesh naag has not understood many words at all in the preamble.
the word 'tawhid' attached to shahada encompasses all of truth and baatin concept of our faith and practice as well.
Constitution is a binding documents to bring all definition in legal terminology mainly for use by AKDN network to present to governments
where they operate now or in future.
It is not a Farman by ANY CHANCE ,it is an important document of of public domain.
No need for for a shallow zahiri with low common sense and zero perception of our faith and baatin perception to to go gaga over words in constitution with poor understanding and its acceptance in the first place.

I feel Admin must troughly vet the quality of each blog before it appear,strict bench mark would see 66% blogs not appearing at all. this is the need of the hour.

If you are an Ismaili, please find and write the kalima paak and its meaning you recite in Du'a. ALSO WRITE THE KALIMA SHAHADAH AND ITS MEANING YOU SAY AFTER DU'A GUZARI BY MUKHI.
Let me see how much you know about meaning of Du'a and Kalima shahadah, from there our discussion will go ahead. If not then it is worthless to waste my time.
Shiva.

[shivaathervedi]

There is no mention of the word PIR in Du'a which we recite daily. Is this because institution of Piratan is not active past 100+ years?

[Admin]

As per the Will of our Imam Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, the Institution of Pir is well active as today the Imam is Pir and Imam of all the Ismailis, including those from your areas.

The Subject of Pir has been discussed umpteen times, there is no need to restart in this thread. You can discuss in existing threads such as http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... &start=210

[kmaherali]

Two satadari pirs said 124000 paigambers and other satadari pir said 180000 paigambers. Let readers of this post decide. Just to say these are merely figurative numbers not helpful. Researchers and educated persons won't take it lightly.

As different numbers have been expounded, it is an indication that the numbers are a figurative expression rather than being exact factual figures. There is no basis of research for that kind of information!

[kmaherali]

EJI ASHTT KROR BRAHMA AAGEY TE UPPAYA
TENEY TARO AN(N)T NA JAANIYO HO SAHEB JI.

Before that created 8 kror (80 millions) brahmas (pirs),but even they knew not your mystery.
Please look at the second line, even pirs were helpless to know reality of the supreme God of universe. With reference to above part of ginan in my opinion status of pir is lower than Imam. It is a separate issue that Currently piratan is merged with Imamat.

The verse that you quoted from the Ginan: Ya khudavand http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3753 ,

refers to the time even before creation. Consider the verses they follow it below:

yaa khudaava(n)d, ashtt karodd bhrahmaa aage tu(n) upaayaa
tenne taaro a(n)t na jaannee yo jee.............4

Before that created 8 kror (80 millions) brahmas (pirs),but even they knew not your mystery.

yaa khudaava(n)d, aatth laakh karann peere taaree sirevaa jo keedhee
taare to peer ne mukh deekhlaayaa jee...........5

Oh Lord: For eight hundred thousand karans, the Peer
worshipped (served, longed for) You. It was only then
that You showed Him Your face.

yaa khudaava(n)d, anat dev taaraa mukh maa(n)he peere deetthaa
taare anat rupee tune peere karee jaanneeyaajee.6

Oh Lord: The Peer saw countless Divine spirits on Your face.
It was then that the Peer recognized You as having infinite attributes.

yaa khudaava(n)d, taaree karannee no paar allah tu(n)hee-j jaanne
evo peere mukhe naam bhannaayaa jee.............7

Oh Lord: Allah, it is only You who can fathom the limits of Your
(creative) actions. This is the word (concept) taught
through the mouth of the Peer.

yaa khudaava(n)d, chhatrees jug choraasee chokaddeeye te
ahu(n)kaar-j maa(n)ddeeyo
taare tamane peere peechhaannee yaa jee.........8

Oh Lord: For thirty six ages and eighty four 'chokarees' (period of time),
You were absorbed in Your self- consciousness (ego).
It was then that the Peer recognized You (in Your real nature as
uncreated, independent and self subsistent).

yaa khudaava(n)d, choraasee aasane taaraa darshan saamu(n) peere
tapa-j saadheeyo
taare to peer ne paas teddaavyaa jee............9

Oh Lord: For the sake of Your Vision, the Peer meditated in eighty
four postures. It was then that You invited the Peer to Your abode.

yaa khudaava(n)d, chaar kalap tuj aagall venatee kareene peere ardaas-j keedhaa
taare tame peer naa vachan-j maaneeyaa jee.....10

Oh Lord: The Peer spent four kalaps entirely petitioning in front of You.
It was then that You accepted the Peer's entire request.

yaa khudaava(n)d, anat venatee kareene peere ardaas-j keedhee
saamee maaraa sheshttee rachaavo jee...........11

Oh Lord: The Peer kept petitioning only making countless requests.
Oh Lord! create the universe.

yaa khudaava(n)d, peer ne vachane saahebe chee(n)taj deedhaa
taare feenn thakee ek i(n)dd upaayaa jee.......12

Oh Lord: The Lord engaged His entire consciousness contemplating
upon the Peer's request(promise). It was only after that, that the Lord
created an egg out of a foamy substance.

The above verses clearly indicate that the Peer recognized the Imam in His true form or substance. Yes the Pir is always lower than the Imam. He is the murid of the Imam.

[kmaherali]

It is wrong to say batini period started after post Alamout era. In Islam batini ta'limat was induced from beginning. For example in time of Prophet Muhammad majalis of Ashab e Sufa, in Khilafat of Mowla Ali and before batini majalis happened. Also in time of Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq there is historical proof of Batini Ta'limat same way there is proof of batini majalis administered in Fatimid period in Egypt and Yemen. Just to say that Fatimid period was zahiri therefore politically things were different and Imams of that time wanted to appease the masses.
IF SHAH AND PIR ARE FROM BEGINNING THEN BATINI TA'LIMAT SHOULD BE FROM BEGINNING..

Of course the Batini period did not begin during the post Alamut period. I merely stated that that period was more conducive to propagate our Batini doctrines. Of course during all periods since creation the Batini dimension was always present even during the Fatimid period. There were majalis that were held for the initiated ones for example.

It was not about appeasing the masses but rather it was speaking according to the capacity of the audience to understand the message. If for example the Preamble were to state that the Imam is the Mazhar of Divine Essence and is present at all times, that would create a lot of problems for Muslims to understand. For the majority, Islam began from Prophet Muhammad and hence the Preamble articulates our tariqah accordingly.

That does not mean that within our Jamat we should understand Imamat as the wasi but rather the Mazhar who is always present.

What happens in the JamatKhanas is the Batin, what we tell others in our constitution is the Zaher.

[kmaherali]

It is an easy formula to switch from zahir to batin and batin to zahir. You wrote," from batin it is the pir who performs the role of bearer of Noor, Imam being Nirijin". Your are confusing readers and your statement is contradicting. If pir is bearer of Noor then why we call Imam "Noor Mowlana Shah Karim Al Hussaini". If he is Nirinjin how come all of us see him when he should be invisible being Nirinjin!!
In Du'a the word Pir is not used, the words used are "WA BI HAQQI MOWLANA WA IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD SHAH KARIM ALHUSSAINI......".

Zahir/Batin combo is the way to understand our tariqah in its fullness. We cannot restrict it to what we articulate to others via the Preamble. It has to be more than that for the murids.

Noor is only a symbol and it does not mean that the Imam is the bearer of physical light. The Noor that we refer to is the Divine Intellect which is not physically tangible. Since the Divine Intellect flows from the Nirinjan (Divine Essence), the Imam is also the bearer of the Noor being Nirinjan.
He is not himself the Nirinjan but the Mazhar of the Nirinjan. Mazhar means that which makes the hidden zaher. In that sense there is no difference between Mazhar of God and God. They are the same for all intents and purposes.

Dua is also a statement of our beliefs and is read and studied by others as well. Hence we cannot use batini words such as Pir in it.

In none of his books Nasir Khusraw wrote that Imam Mustansirbillah was Allah. You already admitted, he wrote," The Imam is the Hujjat or proof of God" So Imam is Hujjat of WHO, and that is Allah and not Allah himself.
Prophet Muhammad said about Mowla Ali," Ana madinatul ilm wa Aliyun babuha". Look at the wordings ALIYUN BABUHA, and Imam SADIQ said "NAHNU BABULLAH", means we (the Imams) are door to Allah. Therefore Imams are intercessor or wasila towards Nirinjin.

What you are saying is the zaher. Nasir clearly explains the meaning of Hujjat in very simple language:

"The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

Read the bolded words above. God = Hujjat= Imam.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.

our every dua ,kalima has deeper baatin concept.
I have on a separate topic explained the meaning of ismaili kalima.please read that.
our tasbih for salvation,forgivness etc is addressed to ONLY and ONLY
ya ALi ya hazar Imam and not to any third person or entity assumed above ALI. the buck stops there.
kalima starst with Laa is nothingness ans the word ALIallah,ali shai allah,aliullah or same said in reverse is at zahiri level hinting at one entity in realtional term and and baatin one person becomes laa( fanaa,nothing but exist in ALI so person become and feels Oneeness with Allah.
one has sit in ibaadat to experaince it.
kalima stats with nothingness end with tahwid of oneness( asal me vaasal, fanna fi allah) for us the pir/paigamber is via media nor the start nor the end.


it is not easy for educated to grasp what I wrote and impossible for an ignorant person.
for any problem one has break the word or substance.
tuth ti hai shariat to dikhti hai marifat.
break the word ALI+Lah+ Allah.
because ALI is marifat,read Khutba e bayan and following Imams affirming their status in relative,open or covered way of expression.
as cube/dice has has six sides , the different side may different colours.
so with faith in ALI and logic of maths, and open farman of Imam aga ali shah datar.CUBE IS ONE AND ONE ONLY
following combinations is part on Cube.
one may have shallow or deeper understanding of it.
Ali allah or Allah ali,
Ali sahi allah or Ahhah sahi ALI.
Aliuallah or AllahuALI.
1=0=1.( Ali + Lah=Alah).
one can cleverly debate wherter it refers to
entity,name or words.
so allah is from ALI it as true
as ALI is from Allah. refer to Imam Aga ali shah farman.
so is the word upon break up.
mean ALI is Allah or allah is ALI
or ALI is truly Allah.
Allah was Truly ALI.
differant Imam has siad about the same cube in different side of perception.the cube does change with descriptions.nor has ALI changed his status
all mean the same.
swichting 1+0=1
to 0+1=1 does change the status of 1.
only take that word laa come from the word and name laa from Allah and
does not come from word name and entity ALI.
that is beauty of ones search.
holy books and ayats as parts of Dua is a noble search and not a difficult QUIZ.
this creature is 100% ignorant on ALI and holy books.
I am personally out of Dua ( shariat) as i recite and Think and live in ALI
24x7. DUM HUME DUM ALI ALI.
all 24 hours movement of my hand ,body,mind,speech is for his small or Big cause.( give 24 hours and not 21 minutes of cosmetic posturing.)

[shivaathervedi]

As per the Will of our Imam Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, the Institution of Pir is well active as today the Imam is Pir and Imam of all the Ismailis, including those from your areas.

The Subject of Pir has been discussed umpteen times, there is no need to restart in this thread. You can discuss in existing threads such as http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... &start=210

You answered the second part of query and neglected the first part which is more important.
Of course I know the will of MSMS, I did not said Imam is not Hujjat/Pir but ASKED WHEN IMAMAT IS ACTIVE, PIRATAN IS SAMIT.

[shivaathervedi]

Two satadari pirs said 124000 paigambers and other satadari pir said 180000 paigambers. Let readers of this post decide. Just to say these are merely figurative numbers not helpful. Researchers and educated persons won't take it lightly.

As different numbers have been expounded, it is an indication that the numbers are a figurative expression rather than being exact factual figures. There is no basis of research for that kind of information!

So you admit 180000 paigambers is a figurative mistake by a Satadari Pir.
'Pirs are always right' as few times mentioned on this forum, now which Pir is correct. Please keep in mind I am using the word mistake and not sin. There are many controversial things in ginans. I am not disrespecting ginans but facts are facts.

[shivaathervedi]

EJI ASHTT KROR BRAHMA AAGEY TE UPPAYA
TENEY TARO AN(N)T NA JAANIYO HO SAHEB JI.

Before that created 8 kror (80 millions) brahmas (pirs),but even they knew not your mystery.
Please look at the second line, even pirs were helpless to know reality of the supreme God of universe. With reference to above part of ginan in my opinion status of pir is lower than Imam. It is a separate issue that Currently piratan is merged with Imamat.

The verse that you quoted from the Ginan: Ya khudavand http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3753 ,

refers to the time even before creation. Consider the verses they follow it below:

yaa khudaava(n)d, ashtt karodd bhrahmaa aage tu(n) upaayaa
tenne taaro a(n)t na jaannee yo jee.............4

Before that created 8 kror (80 millions) brahmas (pirs),but even they knew not your mystery.


I wander when there was nothingness only pitch darkness still Nirinjin created 80 million Brahmas for what?
God said,I was a hidden treasure and wanted to be known thats why created Universe. Even Prophet did not had his real vision on Ma'raj.
You have not mentioned the first 3 crucial parts and after 12 parts of this lengthy ginan. Pir has talked lot of other things apart from real vision of Nirijin which means invisible!

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad.

our every dua ,kalima has deeper baatin concept.
I have on a separate topic explained the meaning of ismaili kalima.please read that.
our tasbih for salvation,forgivness etc is addressed to ONLY and ONLY
ya ALi ya hazar Imam and not to any third person or entity assumed above ALI. the buck stops there.
kalima starst with Laa is nothingness ans the word ALIallah,ali shai allah,aliullah or same said in reverse is at zahiri level hinting at one entity in realtional term and and baatin one person becomes laa( fanaa,nothing but exist in ALI so person become and feels Oneeness with Allah.
one has sit in ibaadat to experaince it.
kalima stats with nothingness end with tahwid of oneness( asal me vaasal, fanna fi allah) for us the pir/paigamber is via media nor the start nor the end.


it is not easy for educated to grasp what I wrote and impossible for an ignorant person.
for any problem one has break the word or substance.
tuth ti hai shariat to dikhti hai marifat.
break the word ALI+Lah+ Allah.
because ALI is marifat,read Khutba e bayan and following Imams affirming their status in relative,open or covered way of expression.
as cube/dice has has six sides , the different side may different colours.
so with faith in ALI and logic of maths, and open farman of Imam aga ali shah datar.CUBE IS ONE AND ONE ONLY
following combinations is part on Cube.
one may have shallow or deeper understanding of it.
Ali allah or Allah ali,
Ali sahi allah or Ahhah sahi ALI.
Aliuallah or AllahuALI.
1=0=1.( Ali + Lah=Alah).
one can cleverly debate wherter it refers to
entity,name or words.
so allah is from ALI it as true
as ALI is from Allah. refer to Imam Aga ali shah farman.
so is the word upon break up.
mean ALI is Allah or allah is ALI
or ALI is truly Allah.
Allah was Truly ALI.
differant Imam has siad about the same cube in different side of perception.the cube does change with descriptions.nor has ALI changed his status
all mean the same.
swichting 1+0=1
to 0+1=1 does change the status of 1.
only take that word laa come from the word and name laa from Allah and
does not come from word name and entity ALI.
that is beauty of ones search.
holy books and ayats as parts of Dua is a noble search and not a difficult QUIZ.
this creature is 100% ignorant on ALI and holy books.
I am personally out of Dua ( shariat) as i recite and Think and live in ALI
24x7. DUM HUME DUM ALI ALI.
all 24 hours movement of my hand ,body,mind,speech is for his small or Big cause.( give 24 hours and not 21 minutes of cosmetic posturing.)

1. What is the prime duty of an Ismaili?
To obey farman of the present Imam of time.
The farman of present Imam is "ALI IS FROM ALLAH". This farman is obeyed by 99% of Ismailis.
2. Being an Ismaili what is your important duty, to recite 3 times Du'a which Imam said is foundation of our Tariqa. You wrote,"I AM PERSONALY OUT OF DU'A". Now question arise what kind of Ismaili are you who is rejecting foundation Ismaili Tariqa. Did Imam ordered you not to recite?
3. Revisit your formula Ali+ la= Allah that becomes alila, la means nothing, do you want to say Ali is nothing.
4. 1+0 in modern times is 10 and not 1.
5. Any Ismaili who does not obey farman of the Imam of time can not become fana billah.