first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

dawlatshahchitrali · Post by **dawlatshahchitrali** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:43 pm

kmaherali wrote:
dawlatshahchitrali wrote:[You are aware that in students mullaqats, student ask blunt questions.
Today's youth do not accept the words like Taqiya, Ta'weel, Batini, or diplomatic approach. They want answers in yes/no format. Their question, Is Imam God? They want answer yes or no. They do not want zahiri this and batini this.
I think our students should have the basic knowledge that ours is an esoteric tariqah of Islam and there are matters restricted for our tariqah only. This is common in all esoteric traditions.

MHI made the following Farmans:

"The reason I asked this question is that I want My spiritual children in the years ahead to understand the two concepts of Islam; the spiritual concept which is ours, and those of certain other branches of Islam, namely those who say no, there is no esoteric form to Islam, there is but an exoteric form. This is why I asked who was Al Hallaj, and I am very happy and I congratulate the spiritual child who knew who was Al Hallaj. Khanavadan"(Bombay, Nov 9, 1967)

"Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. And it is important, therefore, that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts."(Bombay, Nov 22, 1967)

And in his message to the Amman Conference he said:

"Our historic adherence is to the Jafari Madhhab and other Madhahib of close affinity, and it continues, under the leadership of the hereditary Ismaili Imam of the time. This adherence is in harmony also with our acceptance of Sufi principles of personal search and balance between the zahir and the spirit or the intellect which the zahir signifies."(MHI's Message to The International Islamic Conference, Amman, Jordan, 4th - 6th July, 2005)

Hence the notion of zahir abd batin is important for students to appreciate our faith. MHI uses the terms tawil and tafsir in the constitution. These are ideas common to all esoteric branches of Islam. So there cannot be any yes or no answers, but answers depend upon the context.

dawlatshahchitrali wrote:It is strange pir Sadruddin performed Hajj and ask converties to go to Kashi and Mathura for Hajj.
On the contrary the Pir mocks at those who visit Kashi as per verse of the Ginan: Bhoraa re bhoraa maanavi: http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4080

Eji Kaashiye jai bhoraa tame Gangaa maanhe naao
amne tamne jenne sirajiyaa te kiyaan thaki paavo juo juo 3

O momins, visiting Kashi you bath in the Ganges, then how will you attain the one who has created us?

dawlatshahchitrali · Post by **dawlatshahchitrali** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:56 pm

To Kmaherali,

Who will teach and explain esoteric knowledge of our Tariqa to youths. I don't find any such thing in present curriculum of RCs. At primary level you can't teach them the courses of post graduate level.
Esoteric teaching is related to BK, How many are present prorie. Those who do not attend BK or practice are so called ma'rifati, they just talk and pretend to be ma'rifati. Imam is explaining doing his duty but so called ma'rifati should pay attention.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:07 pm

Ya Ali madad.
What is difference between ask any member even if they dislike my guts and aggressive pitch.
1.Pir is Noor E Mohammed,so to visit for HAJJ to see what his followers are doing 700 year after he gave them two things.
If Ali would have so desired, he had power to mermerize the attendees there.
I feel blessed were those who were present when the Pirs are there as Noor e Mohaamed was present there.
2.Quran it self is truth concealed(in parables), so it is but natural the author of the HB may also gave/choose as concealed true name of itself ( brand name).
If this was absolute true was God misleading all other prophets with his different names?
Why why why.Assuming he had this name from time of creation and says truth.
The truth is God is speaking in Quran with ,grace,wisdom and anger as well with highest perceived level of HUMAN INTELLECT and not space lingo.
So common sensse n deep understanding raise questions?
What n who can be living and has his name concealed under the chosen(brand name)?
The original n true name is ALI ALI ALI.
So the brand name is derived from the generic name.I have referred the farmans of Imam Jaffer Sadiq and Ali shah Datar.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:11 am

dawlatshahchitrali wrote:To Kmaherali,

Who will teach and explain esoteric knowledge of our Tariqa to youths. I don't find any such thing in present curriculum of RCs. At primary level you can't teach them the courses of post graduate level.
Esoteric teaching is related to BK, How many are present prorie. Those who do not attend BK or practice are so called ma'rifati, they just talk and pretend to be ma'rifati. Imam is explaining doing his duty but so called ma'rifati should pay attention.

Esoteric teaching is not confined to BK, it concerns the whole outlook of life. MHI in his Farman below explains how to cultivate the batini sense from very early stages. The role of parents is very important for correct religious formation.

My beloved spiritual children,

To all My spiritual children of Lashkar, I give each one of you individually, My most affectionate and best loving blessings.

My beloved spiritual children,

I accept all of you in Lashkar. I would like you from very earliest stage to create understanding of the dual purpose of life, that is material and spiritual. When you talk about Lashkar, it means that those spiritual children who are participating in spiritual life from very young stage. Therefore, you must see that they say Dua regularly and understand the meaning of Dua. They must be given clear understanding that they have soul which is eternal and the physical existence of man on this earth is limited. Therefore, you must teach them Dua and see that they understand its meaning.

I give each one of you My best and most affectionate loving blessings. Khanavadan, Khanavadan.

First of all I accept all My spiritual children in Lashkar and I give each one of you individually My best and most affectionate loving blessings. Khanavadan, Khanavadan.

I would like My spiritual children in Lashkar to understand clearly that each spiritual child has two lives, spiritual and material life. Those who have joined Lashkar, now it is their duty to fulfil the promise of their duty. It is the duty of the parents to teach these spiritual children how to fulfil their obligations as far as their spiritual life is concerned.

My young spiritual children in Lashkar, who are beginning their lives, it is essential that you should teach these young spiritual children from young age that they have two duties. First, to themselves and their families and second spiritual duties, and each one has a soul which is eternal and body is not eternal at all. Teach them Dua and remind them that they should not care for material welfare whole throughout, but important is spiritual welfare. They should learn their Dua and its meaning and become good spiritual children in every way. Later on when they grow older, they should be fully aware of developing their spiritual lives. If they have a strong soul, they will be protected against any difficulty.

dawlatshahchitrali · Post by **dawlatshahchitrali** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:08 pm

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali madad.
What is difference between ask any member even if they dislike my guts and aggressive pitch.
1.Pir is Noor E Mohammed,so to visit for HAJJ to see what his followers are doing 700 year after he gave them two things.
If Ali would have so desired, he had power to mermerize the attendees there.
I feel blessed were those who were present when the Pirs are there as Noor e Mohaamed was present there.
2.Quran it self is truth concealed(in parables), so it is but natural the author of the HB may also gave/choose as concealed true name of itself ( brand name).
If this was absolute true was God misleading all other prophets with his different names?
Why why why.Assuming he had this name from time of creation and says truth.
The truth is God is speaking in Quran with ,grace,wisdom and anger as well with highest perceived level of HUMAN INTELLECT and not space lingo.
So common sensse n deep understanding raise questions?
What n who can be living and has his name concealed under the chosen(brand name)?
The original n true name is ALI ALI ALI.
So the brand name is derived from the generic name.I have referred the farmans of Imam Jaffer Sadiq and Ali shah Datar.

Under pressure you changed your stance and attitude towards Quran and Ginans. This change is well come. Islam is a way of life and Quran has set its perimeter, basic principles, and fundamentals. ( I am not talking of ISIS or Taliban type of Islam ) but the real Islam according to Quran as mentioned in Preamble by Hazar Imam. WE believe Hazar Imam is one who interprets the Quran for his followers according to time for which MSMS used the term Ibnul Waqt. Please read the farman of of Imam on this subject. The farman was made at Dares Salam, Tanzania, Aug 17, 2007.
In Quran the word ALLAH is used 2698 times with its derivatives and word ALI is used 8 times. The Jews used the words ALLUHIM,YHWA for ALLAH, and Muslims use ALLAHUMA AND YA HUWA. Ali or Eli is attribute name of Allah which is recited in many sufi circles like Ya Hai, Ya Qayum, Ya Rahman, Ya Rahim and so on.

dawlatshahchitrali · Post by **dawlatshahchitrali** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:05 pm

kmaherali wrote:
dawlatshahchitrali wrote:To Kmaherali,

Who will teach and explain esoteric knowledge of our Tariqa to youths. I don't find any such thing in present curriculum of RCs. At primary level you can't teach them the courses of post graduate level.
Esoteric teaching is related to BK, How many are present prorie. Those who do not attend BK or practice are so called ma'rifati, they just talk and pretend to be ma'rifati. Imam is explaining doing his duty but so called ma'rifati should pay attention.
Esoteric teaching is not confined to BK, it concerns the whole outlook of life. MHI in his Farman below explains how to cultivate the batini sense from very early stages. The role of parents is very important for correct religious formation.

My beloved spiritual children,

To all My spiritual children of Lashkar, I give each one of you individually, My most affectionate and best loving blessings.

My beloved spiritual children,

I accept all of you in Lashkar. I would like you from very earliest stage to create understanding of the dual purpose of life, that is material and spiritual. When you talk about Lashkar, it means that those spiritual children who are participating in spiritual life from very young stage. Therefore, you must see that they say Dua regularly and understand the meaning of Dua. They must be given clear understanding that they have soul which is eternal and the physical existence of man on this earth is limited. Therefore, you must teach them Dua and see that they understand its meaning.

I give each one of you My best and most affectionate loving blessings. Khanavadan, Khanavadan.

First of all I accept all My spiritual children in Lashkar and I give each one of you individually My best and most affectionate loving blessings. Khanavadan, Khanavadan.

I would like My spiritual children in Lashkar to understand clearly that each spiritual child has two lives, spiritual and material life. Those who have joined Lashkar, now it is their duty to fulfil the promise of their duty. It is the duty of the parents to teach these spiritual children how to fulfil their obligations as far as their spiritual life is concerned.

My young spiritual children in Lashkar, who are beginning their lives, it is essential that you should teach these young spiritual children from young age that they have two duties. First, to themselves and their families and second spiritual duties, and each one has a soul which is eternal and body is not eternal at all. Teach them Dua and remind them that they should not care for material welfare whole throughout, but important is spiritual welfare. They should learn their Dua and its meaning and become good spiritual children in every way. Later on when they grow older, they should be fully aware of developing their spiritual lives. If they have a strong soul, they will be protected against any difficulty.

With reference to your quote," esoteric teaching is not confined to BK", I was pointing to so called Ma'rifaties who talk much and practice less. I understand the door of Ma'rifat is open to all human beings. Ismailis are fortunate that Imam helps his followers on this spiritual path.

Regarding LASHKAR mullaqat, in all farmans which you quoted, Imam has emphasized on learning of meaning of Du'a. This is what I have been stressing in my posts to understand meaning of Du'a , it is fundamental and more important. Imam is paying attention to youths and coming generations. You wrote role of paraents is very important. My question is;
How many parents recite correct Du'a?
How many parents know complete meaning of Du'a?
How many parents know the tenets of Islam and Ismailism?
How many parents know meaning of ginans?
How many parents know history of Islam and particularly Ismailism?
When parents don't know how can they teach and explain to youngsters.
In RCs students are confined to curriculum. They are not allowed to discuss different religious topics in class rooms. Same way teachers are asked not to discuss topics other than curriculum. How there will be religious understanding and spiritual growth? A quote from farman you mentioned,
"Later on when they grow older, they should be fully aware of developing their spiritual life". Our spiritual journey is from Du'a to BK and with blessings from Imam a mureed can merge with He who is above all else.

dawlatshahchitrali · Post by **dawlatshahchitrali** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:58 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:In what language MSMS at age of 8 delivered his very first Farman / Khutba, was that Arabic, Persian, English, or Hindi/Urdu. Also who wrote that Khutba.
Your question demonstrates your total ignorance of the status of the Imam. He made Farman ex-tempore and you know what he said as an 8 year old child, just see...

Haqq Maulaana Dhani Salaamat Dataar Sarkaar Agaa Sultan Mohammad Shah Hazar Imam Taarik 17-8-1885 ne vaar somvaarna lagbhag aath (8) Warsh ni vaiy-ey Imamat ni masnad upar birajmaan thayaa pachee laghbhag pandar(15) diwas baad potey Shree Darkhaney padhaari ,Takht upar biraajee jamat-ney didaar aapi farmavyu :-

“Hey Jamaato tamey amney naanaa nahi samjho. Amey aal-ey-Rasool chieye aney amaara daadaa Hazarat Amirrul Mominin chhe aney amaari daadee Hazarat Bibi Fatima chey.Amey Ali aney Nabi ban-ney na noor chieye.Umar ma jokey naana tou chieye; pun motaa chieye.Hazarat Maula Murtaza Ali naanaa hataa, magar potaani jawaan vaiy-ye khaybar no kil-lou fateh karyo hato aney kil-laana darwaajaa-ney khaaiy upar pakadi raakhee sagadaa lashkar ney tenaa upar thi pasaar karaavyu aney jibraa naam na kaafar ney maaree naakhyo hato.”

Can an 8 year old child talk like that in front of thousands?

I was trying to locate/find the complete transcript of MSMS's very first farman which he delivered on sep1,1885 which you claimed was of 2.5 hours. In KIM, that farman is of 3 pages takes about 15 minutes to speak. I checked in
Noorun ala Noor, only 6 pages on inauguration mentioning around 23 paragraphs which takes about half an hour to speak. Author has mixed up the farman of Sep8,1885 with that of Sep1. Please post If you have complete transcript of 2.5 hours farman.
One senior Ismaili told me that farman was in Persian and transcript was prepared by mother of MSMS.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:43 pm

dawlatshahchitrali wrote: My question is directed to all parents. They should be well acquainted with knowledge of Islam in general and Ismailism in particular.

I think every parent is responsible to provide religious knowledge to their children. Today, religious information [and information in general] is vastly available then ever before. As MHI indicated, we are living in the epoch of Knowledge [Dawr-e-Ilm]. For your questions of how many parents ... it'd be the responsibilities of each individual [parents]. Institutions/leaders can provide religious knowledge and information up to a certain degree; however, I believe, it's the responsibilities of each individual to seek knowledge, as this one is a "Personal Search".

Having said that, I believe it's essential for all Ismailis [in general] to have an understanding of the history of Islam and Ismailis.

I have found the articles on Ismaili Gnosis site [www.ismailignosis.com] to be well articulated and well researched. I think you might benefit from it.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:55 am

dawlatshahchitrali wrote: My question is;
How many parents recite correct Du'a?
How many parents know complete meaning of Du'a?
How many parents know the tenets of Islam and Ismailism?
How many parents know meaning of ginans?
How many parents know history of Islam and particularly Ismailism?

I provided a Farman which provides a method to inculcate a batini sense to young children. This Farman mentions the importance of the role of parents. Whether the parents take upon themselves that role is upto individuals, but that role is important. Today there are many resources that they may consult to fulfil that role. There are websites such as this one, there are many books in publication especially one on the philosophy of Dua by Alwaez Kamaluddin etc. So the resources are there, it is upto the parents to take that initiative. You don't expect the institutions to spoon-feed them.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:37 pm

I don't buy your argument that she had no idea 'who her son was' .

She was good poet in Persian language and she was much inspired by Hafiz Shirazi but according the insider of MSM family and an alwaez she was totally unaware about the status of SMS as an Imam.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:56 am

dawlatshahchitrali wrote:Respected Lady Ali Shah was a highly educated woman even adored by western
writers. Though she was an Isna ash'ari but was well aware of Ismailism.
She was a daughter in law of Imam, wife of Imam, and mother of Imam. The mother tongue of MSMS was persian. I don't buy your argument that she had no idea 'who her son was' .

Lady Ali Shah was no doubt a well cultured, respected and learned person. She had great organisational skills and financial acumen to handle the administrative aspects of Imamat and she made a great contribution to Imamat with that respect.

However that does not necessarily imply that she had the understanding of our traditions. Many scholars today know a great deal about Ismailism but do not know the inner mysteries. In our Ginan it is stated that Azazil had studied a great deal but did not know the mysteries of the interior. This is not to say that Lady Ali Shah was like that. She eventually became the murid.

Greenwall in his book The Aga Khan writes: "His mother, as we have seen, was brought up in purdah. Her son began a campaign to abolish purdah." Do you think that she really knew her son from above?

Post by **Admin** » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:16 am

Lets all come back to the thread.

As per my request of 28th December to Mazhar saying :"Please give your reference first. Who wrote what about Ismailis going for hajj to Kashi and Mathura? if you do not have a reference saying specifically that Ismailis are told to go to Kashi for pilgrimage, your account will be closed. You have 24 hours. Your time stats now. "

I have started cleaning the Forum and in the process I have deleted Mazhar's account. I may delete more accounts. I know that the Forum may become silent for few weeks but I also know many knowledgeable people do not post here because of people backbiting all the time and people like Mazhar who come here with an agenda which is not compatible with Ismailism.

Meanwhile, all those who desire to post are welcome to post

I expect people of better knowledge to come back to this Forum in few weeks once they are convinced that nonsense and foul language does not prevail here.

I will therefore be more strict than in the past on whatever concerns the quality of postings and remove all people trying to create unnecessary controversies between various traditions within Ismailism or with other faiths and those who post insults instead of creating knowledge..

Admin

sameernoorani5 · Post by **sameernoorani5** » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:49 pm

An interesting paragraph from the book " THE GOLDEN BOUGH " originally written in 12 volumes by Sir James Frazer. In those 12 volumes he has discussed a study in magic and religion. This paragraph is from an abridged edition printed in 1993 and contain 756 pages. The below paragraph is mentioned on page 10.
" The ancient kings were commonly priests also, we are far from having exhausted the religious aspects of their office. In those days the divinity that hedges a king was no empty form of speech, but the expression of sober belief. Kings were revered , in many cases not merely as priests, that is, as INTERCESSORS between man and god, but as themselves gods, able to bestow upon their subjects and worshipers those blessings which are commonly supposed to be beyond the reach of mortals, and are sought, if at all, only by prayer and sacrifice offered to superhuman and invisible beings. Thus kings are often expected to give rain and sun shine in due season, to makes the crops grow, and so on. Strange as this expectations appears to us, it is quite of a piece with early modes of though. A savage hardly conceives the distinction commonly drawn by more advanced people between the natural and the supernatural. To him the world is to great extent worked by supernatural agents, that is, by personal beings acting on impulses and motives like his own, liable like him to be moved by appeals to their pity, their hopes, and their fears. In a world so conceived he sees no limit to his power of influencing the course of nature to his own advantage. Prayers, promises, or threats may secure him fine weather and an abundant crop from the gods; and if a god should happen, as he sometimes believe, to become INCARNATE in his own person, then he need appeal to no higher being; he, the savage, possesses in himself all the powers necessary to further his own well being and that of his fellow men. THIS IS ONE WAY IN WHICH THE IDEA OF A MAN-GOD IS REACHED".

Post by **Admin** » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:19 am

The book is a reprint of a hundred years old book written by an atheist in times when many were uneducated. Today to say people believe in God because they are uneducated would be completely wrong.

As far as Ismailis are concerned, we are encouraged to educate ourselves to the max because faith and education is not contradictory, on the contrary!

sameernoorani5 · Post by **sameernoorani5** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:16 pm

JIREY BHAI TIYA(N) THI GURJI AAP SADHARIYA
AAVIYA KASHI KHANDH MAHE(N) JI

JIREY BHAI DAET NU TIYA(N) JAANMP JAPAAI
KASHI VENASI KAIWEY NAATH JI

JIREY BHAI AMEY JAAI TIYA(N) DEERA MAHE(N) BHETHA
AMM SU(N) KARIYU(N) CHHE GHANIYU(N) WATU(N) JI

JIREY BHAI HUM TOU UN KO SHASTREY SAMJHAYA
KESHAW PURI MULTANI AAYA JI

Post by **Admin** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:52 am

So the Pir went to Kashi to impart them knowledge. Please learn the language first.

So I am repeating my question: Please give your reference first. Who wrote what about Ismailis going for hajj to Kashi and Mathura?

24 hours or your new account will be deleted. Enough misleading!

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:03 am

The history of Ismaili pirs revels that pir Sadardin went Kashi (called Banaras now a days ) to debate with the Pandits, he wanted to prove that the tenth incarnation has already born in form of H. Ali (s.a.)
The title "Sohdev" was given to Pir Sadardin by Hindu pandits in "KASHI" after pir Sadardin defeated them in various religious debate.The debate was on Hindu scriptures, vedas, purans and reincarnation of lord Vishnu.

Means he didn't went Kashi to impart knowledge to the pandits but he went to debate with them, The "Shohdev" title is a solid proof, this title awarded by pandit after their own defeat in debate.

My salute goes to Pir who defeated Hindu pandits in their own town (Kashi) and their own and scriptures even though pir Sadardin was Muslim!!

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:42 pm

agakhani wrote:The history of Ismaili pirs revels that pir Sadardin went Kashi (called Banaras now a days ) to debate with the Pandits, he wanted to prove that the tenth incarnation has already born in form of H. Ali (s.a.)
The title "Sohdev" was given to Pir Sadardin by Hindu pandits in "KASHI" after pir Sadardin defeated them in various religious debate.The debate was on Hindu scriptures, vedas, purans and reincarnation of lord Vishnu.

Means he didn't went Kashi to impart knowledge to the pandits but he went to debate with them, The "Shohdev" title is a solid proof, this title awarded by pandit after their own defeat in debate.

My salute goes to Pir who defeated Hindu pandits in their own town (Kashi) and their own and scriptures even though pir Sadardin was Muslim!!

Great answer Admin and Agakhanibhai..
It is sad - that the Pir was able to defeat Hindus in those days and these days - the Pirs' words are falling to the wayside when it comes to establishing the truth to his own Mureeds. It truly is a sad day. I would say - some folks have decided that their truth is THE TRUTH and no one else has a right to any other truth.

Keep up the fight -
for me - it is better to sit on the side and observe and chuckle every now and then...

on another note - I was in Austin 2 weekends ago - was hoping to run into you.

Shams

sameernoorani5 · Post by **sameernoorani5** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:47 pm

Admin wrote:So the Pir went to Kashi to impart them knowledge. Please learn the language first.

So I am repeating my question: Please give your reference first. Who wrote what about Ismailis going for hajj to Kashi and Mathura?

24 hours or your new account will be deleted. Enough misleading!

The parts of ginan which I quoted are not of a pir but a syed. I deliberately hold the name to see the reaction. Accept the congrats from Mr.B.
You know the English literature, the sentence was a PUN. In my other post I wrote, it is my opinion and not fatwa. Though you people accepted that he was Hafiz Quran and went on Hajj and 3rd one I assumed because during the transition period from Hinduism to Khojaism still followers were visiting Kashi and Mathura. After pir visited Kashi, he advised the followers to attend JK as Kashi is there, but in beginning followers went on pilgrimage to Kashi.
I think by threatening me you are accepting your weakness that you are not capable of facing my questions and debating. I think hand over your charge to Karim Maherali, he is more capable than you. You are mentally tired and your memory is worn out, any how he keeps covering you.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:50 pm

You are assuming wrong and trying to mislead people into believing things and when challenged for sources, you still try to give some crooked interpretation.

This is weakness. Strength is in people who accept their mistake and correct them, not in those who try to hide them.

Insulting Admin is weakness, it will not justify that you lied about Kashi & Mathura and so many other things.

Khojaism is a word that you use to divide Ismailis, not to unite them. Ismailis do not need people who create fitna in the community and then pretend to be part of the same community.

Admin

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:47 am

agakhani wrote:The history of Ismaili pirs revels that pir Sadardin went Kashi (called Banaras now a days ) to debate with the Pandits, he wanted to prove that the tenth incarnation has already born in form of H. Ali (s.a.)
The title "Sohdev" was given to Pir Sadardin by Hindu pandits in "KASHI" after pir Sadardin defeated them in various religious debate.The debate was on Hindu scriptures, vedas, purans and reincarnation of lord Vishnu.

Abually Missionary writes in his book:

Pi'r Sadruddi'n was born in Sabzwa'r on the second of Rabi-el-Awwal, 700 A.H. (A.D. 1299) during the Ima'mat of Ima'm Shamsuddi'n Mohammed. He had many names and titles: Ha'ji Ba'ba', Sadar Shah, Pi'r Salaamat, Satgur Soh'dev, Baar Gur, Makhdoom Shah Sadar'di'm, Satguru, Gur Harichand. He was an extraordinary orator. He travelled extensively and wrote many books.
He studied Sanskrit and debated successfully with the pundits and scholars in Ka'shi (Benaras), the centre of theology and learning in those days. The University of Benaras later conferred upon him the degree of Sha'stri, equivalent to Doctrorate, with a title of Soh'dev, a divine being. An Iranian- Arab Satgur Soh'dev son great eminence among the top theologians of India.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... in+history

salimkhoja786 · Post by **salimkhoja786** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:28 pm

ShamsB wrote:
agakhani wrote:The history of Ismaili pirs revels that pir Sadardin went Kashi (called Banaras now a days ) to debate with the Pandits, he wanted to prove that the tenth incarnation has already born in form of H. Ali (s.a.)
The title "Sohdev" was given to Pir Sadardin by Hindu pandits in "KASHI" after pir Sadardin defeated them in various religious debate.The debate was on Hindu scriptures, vedas, purans and reincarnation of lord Vishnu.

Means he didn't went Kashi to impart knowledge to the pandits but he went to debate with them, The "Shohdev" title is a solid proof, this title awarded by pandit after their own defeat in debate.

My salute goes to Pir who defeated Hindu pandits in their own town (Kashi) and their own and scriptures even though pir Sadardin was Muslim!!
Great answer Admin and Agakhanibhai..
It is sad - that the Pir was able to defeat Hindus in those days and these days - the Pirs' words are falling to the wayside when it comes to establishing the truth to his own Mureeds. It truly is a sad day. I would say - some folks have decided that their truth is THE TRUTH and no one else has a right to any other truth.

Keep up the fight -
for me - it is better to sit on the side and observe and chuckle every now and then...

on another note - I was in Austin 2 weekends ago - was hoping to run into you.

Shams

My question is," Ismailis believe that present Imam supersedes farman of his predecessor, Is this concept applies to pirs as well that a pir supersedes previous pirs and make a change in ginans according to time"?

noorafghani100 · Post by **noorafghani100** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:12 pm

PREAMBLE IS FARMAN. Imam has explained the tenets of Islam and Ismailism for his followers and simultenously for non Ismailis to understand the Ismaili faith.
In first article of Preamble Imam has mentioned I quote," Holy Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the last and final prophet of Allah". My point is Ismailis of subcontinent consider Prophet as first pir followed by Hazrat Hasan. Here arise two situations, first Piratan seized after death of Prophet as he was last and final prophet as mentioned by Imam, or second is, that he was not Pir but the first pir should be Hazrat Hasan.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:57 pm

noorafghani100 wrote:PREAMBLE IS FARMAN. Imam has explained the tenets of Islam and Ismailism for his followers and simultenously for non Ismailis to understand the Ismaili faith.
In first article of Preamble Imam has mentioned I quote," Holy Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the last and final prophet of Allah". My point is Ismailis of subcontinent consider Prophet as first pir followed by Hazrat Hasan. Here arise two situations, first Piratan seized after death of Prophet as he was last and final prophet as mentioned by Imam, or second is, that he was not Pir but the first pir should be Hazrat Hasan.

Piratan is not the concept of Ismailies of Sub continent, Its a most important concept of Ismailism.

Prophet Muhammad was the first Pir and Hazir Imam is 50th Pir, as mentioned in will of Imam Sultan Muhhammad Shah. So your illogical point that Hazrat Hassan should first Pir is rejected immediately beacuse in that case Hazir Imam should be our 49th Pir but Imam is our 50th Pir.

BTW welcome back mazhar, and please post with only one ID, either from shivaathervedi of Noorafghani whatever.

Post by **Admin** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:22 pm

I am deleting the account noorafghani100

Mazhar you can not have multiple accounts here. You have already been told. Stop opening accounts under different names.

So far you have used 8 names on this Forum trying to mislead everyone.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:43 pm

noorafghani100 wrote:PREAMBLE IS FARMAN. Imam has explained the tenets of Islam and Ismailism for his followers and simultenously for non Ismailis to understand the Ismaili faith..

The constitution is not a Farman. A Farman is made to murids whereas the constitution is for the general public..[/quote]

noorafghani100 wrote:
Here arise two situations, first Piratan seized after death of Prophet as he was last and final prophet as mentioned by Imam, or second is, that he was not Pir but the first pir should be Hazrat Hasan.

MSMS has made it very clear in his Farman:

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

Hazarat Hasan carried on the Prophet's role as the Pir...

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:06 pm

In my opinion Noor e Imamat or Noor e Piratan need not numbering. This is 2nd pir, this is 5th pir or 49th pir. Pir is Pir under any circumstances nothing to do with numbers. The Satpunthi Ismailis consider Prophet as pir where as rest of Ismailis do not. The especial Dua which was sent by MSMS to central Asian Ismailis did not contained the Prophet as first pir.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:03 am

shivaathervedi wrote:In my opinion Noor e Imamat or Noor e Piratan need not numbering. This is 2nd pir, this is 5th pir or 49th pir. Pir is Pir under any circumstances nothing to do with numbers. The Satpunthi Ismailis consider Prophet as pir where as rest of Ismailis do not. The especial Dua which was sent by MSMS to central Asian Ismailis did not contained the Prophet as first pir.

In our Old Dua recited across the world Prophet Muhammad was mentioned as the first Pir:

Part 11

Offer Prayers for all Pirs:

[10]1. First, the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the Chosen, the Messenger, May peace and the blessings of God be upon him .
[10]2. Pir Hazrat Hasan
[10]3. Pir Qasim Shah
[10]4. Pir Jaffer Shah
5. Pir Zainu'l - Abidin

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:46 pm

Piratan is the concept of each and every Ismaili on earth. Whether they believe it or not and whether they are aware of it or not. Truth remains the truth even if majority don't believe in it , that's there problem not the problem of the truth.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:09 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:In my opinion Noor e Imamat or Noor e Piratan need not numbering. This is 2nd pir, this is 5th pir or 49th pir. Pir is Pir under any circumstances nothing to do with numbers. The Satpunthi Ismailis consider Prophet as pir where as rest of Ismailis do not. The especial Dua which was sent by MSMS to central Asian Ismailis did not contained the Prophet as first pir.
In our Old Dua recited across the world Prophet Muhammad was mentioned as the first Pir:

Part 11

Offer Prayers for all Pirs:

[10]1. First, the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the Chosen, the Messenger, May peace and the blessings of God be upon him .
[10]2. Pir Hazrat Hasan
[10]3. Pir Qasim Shah
[10]4. Pir Jaffer Shah
5. Pir Zainu'l - Abidin

My question is related to THE DUA which was prescribed for central Asian Ismailis did not contained the words awwal pir Nabi Muhammad Mustafa. I was told by a well informed Satpunthi Ismaili that in early 50's there were discussions on this subject in Ismailia Associations and requests were made to MSMS for guidance. IN NEW DUA MSMS DID NOT INCLUDED THE LIST OF PIRS may be (in my opinion) to avoid controversies and pan Islamism.