You can admit that you won't win - but you will not change your mind.zznoor wrote:ShamsBThat is not a way gentleman talks. Specially Not one with PhD.Get your head out of your ass...
I want to learn and give my POV.
End of give and take with you.
Salaam
Like you, i am here to learn.zznoor wrote:ShamsBThat is not a way gentleman talks. Specially Not one with PhD.Get your head out of your ass...
I want to learn and give my POV.
End of give and take with you.
Salaam
I, oppose it, please don't bring more trash in this website, same way Admin do not like AM's trash in this website which may or may not raise some question in readers mind I think there is no room in this website for un useful information to Ismailis, brother a_27826 if you interested to read POV then go that website mentioned by ZZnoor and read over there.Can you give your POV as to why the parts of the Quran are not in order as revealed ?
Is your question to Quran scholars not quoting Quran verses ?nuseri wrote:To Quran scholars:
How many civilization did Allah destroyed or ended .I just need the total of it.I do not need the ayat nos.
Today, majority of the muslims depend on the Quran based on the Uthmanic Mushaf. Without it they are lost (if not already lost)agakhani wrote:I, oppose it, please don't bring more trash in this website, same way Admin do not like AM's trash in this website which may or may not raise some question in readers mind I think there is no room in this website for un useful information to Ismailis, brother a_27826 if you interested to read POV then go that website mentioned by ZZnoor and read over there.Can you give your POV as to why the parts of the Quran are not in order as revealed ?
Very good question but its very hard to tell you how many civilizations did allah[swt] destroyed in the past because he himself said in surah ibrahim:How many civilzation did Allah destroyed or ended .I just need the total of it.I do not need the ayat nos.
Me not him is SHIRAZAre not you Shiraz?
Because the force [NUSERI] is with us, bahahahaSome how it force me to believe that whenever I read your post and SV post!!!
Lemme give you a simple example agakhani bhai... If you see a monkey[chimp] and if you have a banana and a loaded gun on the table...They think it is trash for them they just bieve that we do not need that because they say they have quran.
Whichever quran they may talking about...I ask you this " Does it matter to us ?? " ....If it does then you can flood this topic as and how you may wish...If not then let's try to understand each others viewWell, which quran they are talking about? A ommited, deleted, changed, contradictory, or that uncompleted Quran?
Br S.VLemme give you a simple example agakhani bhai... If you see a monkey[chimp] and if you have a banana and a loaded gun on the table...
Would you give monkey[chimp] a gun ???...No !!!....You cannot change people's mentality by throwing ginans and holy firmans at them...they don't understand !!!...
It is getting offensiveDebates
*They seem to be endless
*In some point one of the sides starts using offensive language and usually this is the reason for ending the debate
.They are repeated material that are posted every now and then in many websites
Br S.VLemme give you a simple example agakhani bhai... If you see a monkey[chimp] and if you have a banana and a loaded gun on the table...
Would you give monkey[chimp] a gun ???...No !!!....You cannot change people's mentality by throwing ginans and holy firmans at them...they don't understand !!!...
It is getting offensiveDebates
*They seem to be endless
*In some point one of the sides starts using offensive language and usually this is the reason for ending the debate
.They are repeated material that are posted every now and then in many websites
ah so finally it comes outzznoor wrote:Br S.VLemme give you a simple example agakhani bhai... If you see a monkey[chimp] and if you have a banana and a loaded gun on the table...
Would you give monkey[chimp] a gun ???...No !!!....You cannot change people's mentality by throwing ginans and holy firmans at them...they don't understand !!!...
AS
I did not expect insulting language from you. It looks like instead of teach and learn, gang up and insult.
Recently I read this regarding Shia Sunni debate written by ex Shia
It is getting offensiveDebates
*They seem to be endless
*In some point one of the sides starts using offensive language and usually this is the reason for ending the debate
.They are repeated material that are posted every now and then in many websites
Right now I do not see any point going on which will result in more insults heaped on holy book of mine.
Despite 31 electronic pages
Not a single post on a deleted or omitted word, Aya or Sura of Quran Majid.
I know why enemy of Islam and doubters in Quran are doing this but but it will be fruitless debate.
Salaam again
Yes....the posts are getting offensive.....zznoor wrote:Br S.VLemme give you a simple example agakhani bhai... If you see a monkey[chimp] and if you have a banana and a loaded gun on the table...
Would you give monkey[chimp] a gun ???...No !!!....You cannot change people's mentality by throwing ginans and holy firmans at them...they don't understand !!!...
AS
I did not expect insulting language from you. It looks like instead of teach and learn, gang up and insult.
Recently I read this regarding Shia Sunni debate written by ex Shia
It is getting offensiveDebates
*They seem to be endless
*In some point one of the sides starts using offensive language and usually this is the reason for ending the debate
.They are repeated material that are posted every now and then in many websites
Right now I do not see any point going on which will result in more insults heaped on holy book of mine.
Despite 31 electronic pages
Not a single post on a deleted or omitted word, Aya or Sura of Quran Majid.
I know why enemy of Islam and doubters in Quran are doing this but but it will be fruitless debate.
Salaam again
you're missing the point - the point is - you're asking me to produce the Yemeni Quran - when this has been suppressed by the Saudis - as I stated in my post.a_27826 wrote:Yes....the posts are getting offensive.....zznoor wrote:Br S.VLemme give you a simple example agakhani bhai... If you see a monkey[chimp] and if you have a banana and a loaded gun on the table...
Would you give monkey[chimp] a gun ???...No !!!....You cannot change people's mentality by throwing ginans and holy firmans at them...they don't understand !!!...
AS
I did not expect insulting language from you. It looks like instead of teach and learn, gang up and insult.
Recently I read this regarding Shia Sunni debate written by ex Shia
It is getting offensiveDebates
*They seem to be endless
*In some point one of the sides starts using offensive language and usually this is the reason for ending the debate
.They are repeated material that are posted every now and then in many websites
Right now I do not see any point going on which will result in more insults heaped on holy book of mine.
Despite 31 electronic pages
Not a single post on a deleted or omitted word, Aya or Sura of Quran Majid.
I know why enemy of Islam and doubters in Quran are doing this but but it will be fruitless debate.
Salaam again
Just because Ismailis get bashing from non ismaili sites, doesnt mean Ismailis do the same to non ismailis in the ismaili sites.
There are one of two things you can do to the posts directed at you.
1. Do not respond (eg like you din't respond to me asking you about your POV).
or
2. Respond logically.
For example, if an Ismaili tells you there is a Yemeni Quran in existence that predates the current Uthmani. Just respond by telling him politely to produce it.
Or ask him politely, when Imam visits a Jamat, are the recitations of Quran from the Yemeni or the Uthmani Quran ?
OR
when somebody tells you that a goat had eaten some written parts of the Quran........respond politely that it does not matter if a goat had eaten them.... many people had written verses in their possessions at that time and compilers must have replaced the eaten documents.
ok...... point taken....ShamsB wrote:you're missing the point - the point is - you're asking me to produce the Yemeni Quran - when this has been suppressed by the Saudis - as I stated in my post.a_27826 wrote:Yes....the posts are getting offensive.....zznoor wrote: Br S.V
AS
I did not expect insulting language from you. It looks like instead of teach and learn, gang up and insult.
Recently I read this regarding Shia Sunni debate written by ex Shia
It is getting offensive
Right now I do not see any point going on which will result in more insults heaped on holy book of mine.
Despite 31 electronic pages
Not a single post on a deleted or omitted word, Aya or Sura of Quran Majid.
I know why enemy of Islam and doubters in Quran are doing this but but it will be fruitless debate.
Salaam again
Just because Ismailis get bashing from non ismaili sites, doesnt mean Ismailis do the same to non ismailis in the ismaili sites.
There are one of two things you can do to the posts directed at you.
1. Do not respond (eg like you din't respond to me asking you about your POV).
or
2. Respond logically.
For example, if an Ismaili tells you there is a Yemeni Quran in existence that predates the current Uthmani. Just respond by telling him politely to produce it.
Or ask him politely, when Imam visits a Jamat, are the recitations of Quran from the Yemeni or the Uthmani Quran ?
OR
when somebody tells you that a goat had eaten some written parts of the Quran........respond politely that it does not matter if a goat had eaten them.... many people had written verses in their possessions at that time and compilers must have replaced the eaten documents.
If you or zznoor googled the word Yemeni Quran - you'd get more than enough links so that you could follow through.
This isn't about bashing - this is about making a point; that being that zznoor isn't willing to go look at what has been provided to her as reference materials. We have page after page after page of a number of us telling her - here's where the proof is.
Seems like you too brother have selective reading...
Also to your point in regards to when the Imam visits - the argument isn't whether the Quran is the word of Allah or not - the argument is whether it is complete..i.e .what was revealed to the Prophet without abrogation..
Did you miss that memo?
FYI - We also sing Ginans and Qasidahs in the presence of the Imam; what status does that give to the Ginans or to the Qasidahs - that of equivalence to the Quran - if one were to use the logic you just provided.
The comment about the goat; not something I made up - you've made some "educated" posts - yet this is a historical fact that you haven't read about?
Maybe Shirazbhai or Agakhani or even Nuseri can point you to the post that quotes a historical source stating that the Surahs were captured on that parchment because all the people who had memorized those verses were either very old and died shortly after dictating or had died in the war. The goat ate the only surviving copy.
We've provided sources and references - zznoor is not even reading what we're writing. When you use her logic; she tends to sidle from one perspective to another...that is the point
Like I said - no point in beating one's head against a wall; I go at it with a sledge hammer.
Read earlier in the posts - I had quoted Sura Kafiroon - stating - to you yours, and to me mine - fyi - incase you aren't aware - this is in accordance with the guidance of the Imam as well - you try to explain your faith - not everyone will understand - and that's fine - you both go your ways...and even today - i am willing to say - zznoor is more than welcome to practice her faith - however she can't shove it down my throat or anyone else's throat. I am more than willing to disagree.
Asking someone to politely produce a yemeni quran is a task that is almost impossible - however you can google it and you'll understand what i am talking about - seems like you were trigger happy in responding and keeping someone engaged that you could keep the discussion going where you could display your prowess in the quran.
Here is the Wikipedia Link to the Sana'a manuscript:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript
Note : the lower texts contains many variants to the Uthmanic Quran - which is written on top of the lower text; and the portion containing the lower text is carbon dated to 99% accuracy before 671 AD; so if the Quran was captured as is - why the variance in the texts?...and if someone says - oh they standardized the arabic etc - then the Quran we have is not the exact words of Allah that were revealed to the Prophet - this opens an even deeper issue than just the Quran being incomplete.
To the Ismailies with Kalame Imame Mubeen on here- there is a Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah in there that address and talks about this issue; please refer to it if you can - and you'll marvel at the words of the Imam well over a 100 years ago - 70 years + prior to the discovery of the Sana'a manuscript.
youtube.com/watch?v=Y40X6ykSQlE
youtube.com/watch?v=ZdybLT5m_2Y
Here are a couple of Youtube links
Oh and if someone tells me - oh this is internet stuff - why do you believe it? or it's not worth it's salt...
Read earlier postings - zznoor has used internet sources (shafi i believe) what is good for the goose is good for the gander
Difference is - I have actually been fortunate enough to study pieces of this manuscript....there is actual research that's been done on this and we have historical proofs corroborating this narrative.
Most of all - and should be the only important thing to an Ismaili - is that we have the direction from the Imams on this...let us not forget that.
zznoor may not grasp that concept - but as Ismailies - the Imam is Rasikun fil Ilm - all knowing and infallible.
Shams
Please look up and read this carefullyFYI - You want an omitted Surah - Surah Wilayah is one such Surah - this is accepted by all Mainstream Shias - if you're serious - you'll actually go and research and read about it - the problem you'll have - it's very heavy on Imamah - and you will say this is fabricated..
5. Conclusions
Surah al-Walayah and Surah al-Nurayn are considered forgeries by both Shi'ite and Western scholars. This is further confirmed by their absence in Jeffery's studies on "variants" attributed to `Ali as well as Zaid bin `Ali. The stylistic features of Surah al-Walayah and Surah al-Nurayn are a poor imitation of the Qur'an and riddled with grammatical errors. Contrary to the expectation that they are a Shi'ite forgery, modern research has shown that the composer of the two forged surahs is a Parsi.
And Allah knows best!
Well, above is your own opinions but I do not agree with that , I have my own opinion on Quran which are as below:-Not a single post on a deleted or omitted word, Aya or Sura of Quran Majid.
I know why enemy of Islam and doubters in Quran are doing this but but it will be fruitless debate.
Salaam again
Well, above is your own opinions but I do not agree with that , I have my own opinion on Quran which are as below:-Not a single post on a deleted or omitted word, Aya or Sura of Quran Majid.
I know why enemy of Islam and doubters in Quran are doing this but but it will be fruitless debate.
Salaam again
Sister, I was just trying to prove my point that all !!!Br S.V
AS
I did not expect insulting language from you. It looks like instead of teach and learn, gang up and insult.
Recently I read this regarding Shia Sunni debate written by ex Shia
Yes that's quite possible....when the verse was revealed, was she was the only one who heard the revelation? even that is possible because since they were married and they might be alone in their house when the verse was revealed.shiraz.virani wrote: [Narrated Aisha] "The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."
Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal vol 6 p 269
Sunan Ibn Majah p. 626;
Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat alAzhariyya. 1966) p. 310
As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13
It was narrated that 'Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
Ibn Majah Vol 3, Book 9...Hadith 1944
It might possible, but here few questions arise in my mind, did Ummul Momanin Ayesha ever wrote any Quranic ayas before? as per my thinking she never did before then why Allah choose that time, when Prophet and Ayesha were alone at their home? did Allah couldn't wait till morning?Yes that's quite possible....when the verse was revealed, was she was the only one who heard the revelation? even that is possible because since they were married and they might be alone in their house when the verse was revealed.
Did the writing paper available that time? if paper was available than why other writers used to wright on leaves, on stone, on woods, or on clay?"The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed.
Now you're veering off the argument my friend.a_27826 wrote:Yes that's quite possible....when the verse was revealed, was she was the only one who heard the revelation? even that is possible because since they were married and they might be alone in their house when the verse was revealed.shiraz.virani wrote: [Narrated Aisha] "The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."
Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal vol 6 p 269
Sunan Ibn Majah p. 626;
Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat alAzhariyya. 1966) p. 310
As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13
It was narrated that 'Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
Ibn Majah Vol 3, Book 9...Hadith 1944
Shiraz, do really believe these ahadith ?
Lets take example of Abu Abu Hurairah, who spent only only 3 years with the Prophet and he narrated 5,374 ahadiths.
Aisha = 2,210 ahadiths,
Umar al-Khattab = 537 ahadiths,
Ali = 536 ahadiths and
Abu Bakr = 142 ahadiths
Abu Hurairah has narrated more from the Prophet than the other four just mentioned combined and only in the space of three years.
Does that make sense to you ?
If i were you, i would be very sceptical of ahadith.....
however some of them may well be accurate
You will find opposing POVI can even copy/paste that hadith of goat chewing on some aayats...what more proof do you want sister ???....I'm with you when you say we have to follow the commands of allah[swt] mentioned in holy quran but what about other missing paras mentioned in holy ginans ???....Aren't we suppose to follow that when we know that ginans infact are the actual tarjuma of quran's missing paras ??
[Narrated Aisha] "The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."
Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal vol 6 p 269
Sunan Ibn Majah p. 626;
Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat alAzhariyya. 1966) p. 310
As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13
It was narrated that 'Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
Ibn Majah Vol 3, Book 9...Hadith 1944
Myth of Qur'anic verses eaten by a goat
Using a report from Sunan Ibn Majah the Christian missionaries allege that some verses of the Qur’an were lost as they were eaten by a goat. Let’s analyze the narration and try to find out the truth.
................
Search and u will find other POV
This is just for learning
Just for learning purposes, it would be nice if you put your POV (in few sentences) as to why this verse of stoning from God (if really this written verse ever existed) was not in the Mushaf ?zznoor wrote:S.V.You will find opposing POVI can even copy/paste that hadith of goat chewing on some aayats...what more proof do you want sister ???....I'm with you when you say we have to follow the commands of allah[swt] mentioned in holy quran but what about other missing paras mentioned in holy ginans ???....Aren't we suppose to follow that when we know that ginans infact are the actual tarjuma of quran's missing paras ??
[Narrated Aisha] "The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."
Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal vol 6 p 269
Sunan Ibn Majah p. 626;
Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Mukhtalafi l-Hadith (Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat alAzhariyya. 1966) p. 310
As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 2. p. 13
It was narrated that 'Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
Ibn Majah Vol 3, Book 9...Hadith 1944
In this article
Myth of Qur'anic verses eaten by a goat
Using a report from Sunan Ibn Majah the Christian missionaries allege that some verses of the Qur’an were lost as they were eaten by a goat. Let’s analyze the narration and try to find out the truth.
................
Search and u will find other POV
This is just for learning