first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[mazharshah]

Br 103
AS
You are referring to Quran which is revered by 1.6 B Muslims including your Dharm Guru. His grand father Ali RA recited same text during period of 3 Khalifs and his 5.5 years of khilafat. You have all right to believe whatever. Please note that Cowardise was not a trait of Hz Ali RA. If something was omitted 7 imams would have definaty pointed out.
Salaam

Walaikum asalam,

Imam Sultan Mohd Shah Cleary stated in his Farman that " At the time of khalifa usman, Quran had altered and corrupted." ( not exact words).

Your uncle Nuseri wrote that Bhuj Nirijan is a so called fake ginan.
Jao uss ke khandan ki bhi jakey thok do, phudakte bahut ho.

[zznoor]

Br 103
AS
You are referring to Quran which is revered by 1.6 B Muslims including your Dharm Guru. His grand father Ali RA recited same text during period of 3 Khalifs and his 5.5 years of khilafat. You have all right to believe whatever. Please note that Cowardise was not a trait of Hz Ali RA. If something was omitted 7 imams would have definaty pointed out.
Salaam

Walaikum asalam,

Imam Sultan Mohd Shah Cleary stated in his Farman that " At the time of khalifa usman, Quran had altered and corrupted." ( not exact words).

You might believe in it but to me It was a white lie, he said 100 years ago in little city in Khatiyawad. He also promised to write down 10 additional chapters. He died without writing a single word. Without proof it is just hot air.
If you

[mazharshah]

In part 24/4, you have translated Nirinjan as Mazhar of the Ihklas, where as Nirijan means ' He who is not visible'. So you twisted the meaning.
True He has no father no mother( no sons no daughters) because He is Nirijan, " wa lamya kulahu kufuwan Ahad". But,
SO GUPTA PRAGHAT BHAYO
LAAKH DARO TISS NAAM RE.
When hidden became apparent, hundred thousand+ His names popped up.
( because He is all in all ), therefore He is Qazi, Mulla, and Namazi.
Same philosophy in part 25 of Bhuj Nirijan;

Just google the meaning of nirinjan and it does NOT imply not visible or hidden.

Meaning from google..

Niranjana (Niranjan) - Indian word, use in religious formulas (mantra), names and Hindu mithology. It is popular in Bengal. Word niranjan means spotless, Pure, Supreme being, Unpainted, Devoid of all Objectifications, without any bad quality (attributes), active, truth full, great, a gift of god.

anjan means forms or attributes and nir means without so nirinjan means without forms or attributes.

24/4 is talking about the enlightened person becoming nirinjan (read the whole part 24_). It means that he becomes the Mazhar of the Nirinjan. He is visible just like the Imam who is the Mazhar of God.

He is NOT hidden as you are implying!

Maestro, you are right. I checked in Gujrati dictionary and found same meanings. Instead of writing 'Nirinjan means', I should have written ' the word Nirijan is explained'. About a decade ago during a lecture on Bhuj Nirinjan, it was explained as 'without form' means can't be seen with human eyes and is invisible. I took the meaning of;
NIRALA NIRINJAN KAHIYE(N)
NIRALI KAHIYE(N) KUCHH BAAT
Means; Strange is the indescriptible and strange are its descriptions ( can't understand because can't see Him).

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
There would not be 10 full chapters but 10 more verses or Ayats.
There is a hint in that direction of manuscript of the holy book found in Yemen.
The world is paying price for this mid adventure n going the price will get much much heavier with both natural n man made disasters,which is already baffling the logics of many learned n scientific community.
BTW a presidential candidate wants to give early visas to heaven with hoors to non human souls, The creeping creature is really lucky.
Let the 10 verses take it own time to reappear ,just disregarding n not understanding the words IMAM E MUBEEN is a soft reality n reflection in that area of origin.It looks like a cursed zone to people with cosmopotilin ethics.
This a beginning, the end is mentioned in the holy book sent by Ali+lah= Allah or 1+0=1.
In school picnics we were told to to kiss the feet of the idols in temple.
Kissing a set printed pages does reflect acknowledgement not it acceptance.
Many countries have custom to kiss some holy books or constitution.
One must not take the face value of a picture to make narrow opinion.
Was any statement or declaration made n recorded by any from MHI during that pose.
If a stepson kissing his new mother's ,whom he hates.A picture of that pose does not hold ground in court of law.
Ankowledgement n Absolute acceptance n different meaning.
First is mainly out of peer pressures, laws,custom ,traditions etc.the second is firm decision of the person on it from his/her statement.

[ismaili103]

Dear Desi Goat,
I never disrespect ginans, but I am watching what you learnt from ginans to threat others. I don't take threats. I damn care for barking dogs. I have military back ground and I am not scared of RATS like you. Never ever threat again central Asians or other Ismaili brothern. Maro aagar pachhar rowa waro koi nathi, potani family ni fikar rakh. Go AND THREAT THOSE WHO KILLED YOUR BHAI BANDU IN SAFURA.
The Quran which you call fake was kissed by Hazar Imam, what you think is Imam fake?

You need to understand urdu slangs because you definitely don't know the meaning of "MAARNA" in Urdu slang. Definitely its not killing and threatening, I am Ginan Reader and for me Killing of one person can destroy my aakhirat as mentioned in baavan ghaati Granth of Pir Saddardin.

But millions of so called muslims killing and threatening there own muslim brothers after reading some 1400 year old corrupt text.

And about kissing the Quran by Imam,

Imam is Aql e qul and my intellect is not enough to understand his actions. So my responsibility is to read and obey his Farman not his actions. And his Farmans stated that Ginan and Farman and Quran are same.

I have many Hunzai, Gilgiti, Chitrali, Central Asian, and Afghani friends and They are not like you if they don't read Ginans, they at least don't make fun of it at least in front of me.

[ismaili103]

By making such kind of statements against Quran, that idiot is putting other Ismailis lives in danger in Pak. Because of such statements other Muslims disrespect and abhor Ismaili Khoja community. Where as our Imam kisses and respect Quran.
This fake so called mairifati boy dances a lot need some special treatment.

Hum to Haq ki baat karte ha , Karhwi apne aap lag jaati ha.

Jiye ge to shaan se aur marenge bhi shaan, tumhaari tarha buzdilo ki tarha nahi.

Special treatment., hahaha which one, which you are facing in chicago, past se past halat or shair chorne par majboor ramta jogi.

[nuseri]

To zznoor: Ya Ali madad.
You posted the farman of Imam SMS.
Well the same Imam made a farman some 100-150 years back in Africa.
I wish some scholar help me with the dates n extract.
That in future all religions without reasoning will disintegrate.
Well this farman in those where all has belief in their religions would have that Imam is cracking a joke or telling a lie.
Now the same farman observed today when world has lost 40% of religious people as they
No reasoning or value in it at all.
So this farman looks marginally right n with next generation to come it will look absolutely true at that time.
In same way the effect n reality would have its own time.many member jump to it ,It will be Absolutely true in times to come.
So farman with future impact may look like a joke or a lie to non believers.
The penalty of God is already in action on non believers n who wronged the words of God.
Exporter of radical ideology origin country will see it income down by 60% in 2016.
The world is now looking it as a culprit.
So bombing on infidels between religious towns by non tolerant country who just entereted to end devils in that region.
The world is putting pressure on that origin of hell theory to take quarter of millions of refugees.
That country will be cornered n may be wiped from the face of the earth.
God will not spare No one out there.
Admin can post his favorite farman on fate of mullahs in that region.

[mazharshah]

By making such kind of statements against Quran, that idiot is putting other Ismailis lives in danger in Pak. Because of such statements other Muslims disrespect and abhor Ismaili Khoja community. Where as our Imam kisses and respect Quran.
This fake so called mairifati boy dances a lot need some special treatment.

Hum to Haq ki baat karte ha , Karhwi apne aap lag jaati ha.

Jiye ge to shaan se aur marenge bhi shaan, tumhaari tarha buzdilo ki tarha nahi.

Special treatment., hahaha which one, which you are facing in chicago, past se past halat or shair chorne par majboor ramta jogi.

Mr.Shandaar,
I know what kind of haqiqati you are. while discussing what you are writing in front of a Mullah, when he will clap, you will be first to disappear. Just wait and see.
Do not loose your weight if I am in Chicago, Houston, Toronto, Paris, Mumbai, or Karachi. I am not a sitting Duck like you.

[mazharshah]

Dear Desi Goat,
I never disrespect ginans, but I am watching what you learnt from ginans to threat others. I don't take threats. I damn care for barking dogs. I have military back ground and I am not scared of RATS like you. Never ever threat again central Asians or other Ismaili brothern. Maro aagar pachhar rowa waro koi nathi, potani family ni fikar rakh. Go AND THREAT THOSE WHO KILLED YOUR BHAI BANDU IN SAFURA.
The Quran which you call fake was kissed by Hazar Imam, what you think is Imam fake?

You need to understand urdu slangs because you definitely don't know the meaning of "MAARNA" in Urdu slang. Definitely its not killing and threatening, I am Ginan Reader and for me Killing of one person can destroy my aakhirat as mentioned in baavan ghaati Granth of Pir Saddardin.

But millions of so called muslims killing and threatening there own muslim brothers after reading some 1400 year old corrupt text.

And about kissing the Quran by Imam,

Imam is Aql e qul and my intellect is not enough to understand his actions. So my responsibility is to read and obey his Farman not his actions. And his Farmans stated that Ginan and Farman and Quran are same.

I have many Hunzai, Gilgiti, Chitrali, Central Asian, and Afghani friends and They are not like you if they don't read Ginans, they at least don't make fun of it at least in front of me.

I know Urdu well. Having military back ground I know what is marna or marna. Why there are no comments against your uncle Nuseri who wrote BHUJ NIRIJAN is a so called ginan written by some Qadri sufi?
This is the third time I have marked you cursed central Asian/Afghani/Hunzai
Ismailis, when you come into your senses you realize what blunder you did, then you start praising them to pacify them. This won't work all the times, some day you may have to pay the price for disrespecting.

[mazharshah]

Ya Ali Madad.
There would not be 10 full chapters but 10 more verses or Ayats.
There is a hint in that direction of manuscript of the holy book found in Yemen.
The world is paying price for this mid adventure n going the price will get much much heavier with both natural n man made disasters,which is already baffling the logics of many learned n scientific community.
BTW a presidential candidate wants to give early visas to heaven with hoors to non human souls, The creeping creature is really lucky.
Let the 10 verses take it own time to reappear ,just disregarding n not understanding the words IMAM E MUBEEN is a soft reality n reflection in that area of origin.It looks like a cursed zone to people with cosmopotilin ethics.
This a beginning, the end is mentioned in the holy book sent by Ali+lah= Allah or 1+0=1.
In school picnics we were told to to kiss the feet of the idols in temple.
Kissing a set printed pages does reflect acknowledgement not it acceptance.
Many countries have custom to kiss some holy books or constitution.
One must not take the face value of a picture to make narrow opinion.
Was any statement or declaration made n recorded by any from MHI during that pose.
If a stepson kissing his new mother's ,whom he hates.A picture of that pose does not hold ground in court of law.
Ankowledgement n Absolute acceptance n different meaning.
First is mainly out of peer pressures, laws,custom ,traditions etc.the second is firm decision of the person on it from his/her statement.

MSMS MENTIONED 10 CHAPTERS AND NOT 10 AYATS AS YOU WROTE.

[mazharshah]

In part 24/4, you have translated Nirinjan as Mazhar of the Ihklas, where as Nirijan means ' He who is not visible'. So you twisted the meaning.
True He has no father no mother( no sons no daughters) because He is Nirijan, " wa lamya kulahu kufuwan Ahad". But,
SO GUPTA PRAGHAT BHAYO
LAAKH DARO TISS NAAM RE.
When hidden became apparent, hundred thousand+ His names popped up.
( because He is all in all ), therefore He is Qazi, Mulla, and Namazi.
Same philosophy in part 25 of Bhuj Nirijan;

Just google the meaning of nirinjan and it does NOT imply not visible or hidden.

Meaning from google..

Niranjana (Niranjan) - Indian word, use in religious formulas (mantra), names and Hindu mithology. It is popular in Bengal. Word niranjan means spotless, Pure, Supreme being, Unpainted, Devoid of all Objectifications, without any bad quality (attributes), active, truth full, great, a gift of god.

anjan means forms or attributes and nir means without so nirinjan means without forms or attributes.

24/4 is talking about the enlightened person becoming nirinjan (read the whole part 24_). It means that he becomes the Mazhar of the Nirinjan. He is visible just like the Imam who is the Mazhar of God.

He is NOT hidden as you are implying!

Maestro, you are right. I checked in Gujrati dictionary and found same meanings. Instead of writing 'Nirinjan means', I should have written ' the word Nirijan is explained'. About a decade ago during a lecture on Bhuj Nirinjan, it was explained as 'without form' means can't be seen with human eyes and is invisible. I took the meaning of;
NIRALA NIRINJAN KAHIYE(N)
NIRALI KAHIYE(N) KUCHH BAAT
Means; Strange is the indescriptible and strange are its descriptions ( can't understand because can't see Him).

In the Ginan book volume 5, I found the meaning of NIRIJAN as" na qaabl e dheed and na qaabl e faham ( in Urdu ) page #247". Which means; invisible and beyond imagination. It shows I was not wrong.

[Admin]

MSMS MENTIONED 10 CHAPTERS AND NOT 10 AYATS AS YOU WROTE.

Yes this is right. it is consistent with the saying of Mowlana Muhammad Baqir that a quarter of the Quran ayats are losts, notably there were 4 parts in the Quran, 1) History, 2) Commandments, 3) Prophecy and 4) Imamat. Ayats on Imamat from 4th part being all lost.

However for Ismailis, the Imam is the Bolto Quran and therefore if you want to read the interpretation of the Quran in your time, you may read the Farmans in the Golden Edition

[ismaili103]

I know Urdu well. Having military back ground I know what is marna or marna. Why there are no comments against your uncle Nuseri who wrote BHUJ NIRIJAN is a so called ginan written by some Qadri sufi?
This is the third time I have marked you cursed central Asian/Afghani/Hunzai
Ismailis, when you come into your senses you realize what blunder you did, then you start praising them to pacify them. This won't work all the times, some day you may have to pay the price for disrespecting.

You still did not understand it. Leave it.

I missed nuseri's long post, ok here my answer for nuseri, Mr nuseri do you remember one day I had told you that " BAAP SE HY PYAR KARTE RAHOGE TO MAA SE DUR HOJAO GE" . I am again telling you your love towards Ali is good but don't make fun of Pirs and Ginans . Bhuj niranjan is great granth of Pir Sadardin which contain many jewels of Ismailism and Ruhaniat. Nuseri naam rakhne se koi nuseri nai ban jaata.

Mazhar, Didn't I had told you that I have many friends from your area, and I love them and there culture. And they did not make fun of Pirs and Ginans.

Go and read your one year old posts and my very first encounter with you, It was all started with yaa ali madad, and respect in the post but it was you who start making things mess by disrespecting thoughts and practices of other Ismailies outside your region by opening new threads, you then start disrespecting members....here is one example once I wrote an equation.

Ali= Allah
Mohammad= creator = Allah
Pir= Mohammad= Allah

And on return you post

Ismaili103= yazid
Ismaili103= iblees
Satan whatever.

First of all you have to respect others and then talk about respect.

Above all you start making fun of Pirs, Ginans and even Imams Farman( when members provided you with farman on Ali Allah).

Karma is here, one day you will have to pay for disrespecting.

Izzar do ge to izzat milegy, agr nai to yehi chalta rahega.

[nuseri]

To Admin:Ya Ali madad.
What is your reflection,opinion to a living creature reply to one member.calling himself as cursed Mullah n telling
a member if he claps n member disappears.
.
To Ismaili103.:
Ya ALI madad.ignore the cursed soul.
At marifat there no me,he,she .It is only ALI that exists.
Recently just last week Mhi in his speech said to highly intellectual audience that all is
CLASH OF IGNORANCE.
I observe a wise haqiqati member at the best is 75% wise and 25% ignorance.as for the cursed soul is 75% ignorance and 25% cunningness.
I myself exist in Noor of Ali so my status,gender and dual tri status of Ali.
If our syllabus is what is Jk and not volume of data in library of ITREB n IIS.
They may be of some academic interest to scholars but has ZERO I repeat again Zero value to inspire or upgrade status of one soul.It matter of fact that there would look contrary to each other as no Baatin blessing exist.
Do not read too much into ginans,if they are not in Jk syllabus.
This leads to frustration and mid statement
Ignore barking dog as they are not human souls.
By the way there is some post on status of bhuj niranjan.
Ali bless you to your path to Marifat.

[ismaili103]

Do not read too much into ginans,if they are not in Jk syllabus.

Nuseri bhai,

Missionary kada ruda had wrote in his book that " We have 10 million parts of Ginanic literature written by all Pirs."

Now we have only few Ginan available because within the span of 1000 years we had lost many Ginans in wars, migration, less means of preservation. Now we have few Ginans available, and many buzurg have old Ginans which ITREB doesn't have , ITREB only publish those Ginans which were available to them. So it doesn't mean those Ginans which are not published are useless.

[nuseri]

To ismaili103:
Ya ali madad.
Kara ruda was no ordinary soul.have you read about his ibaadat achievement?
Let there be many thousand poem,etc.
You know from one or few ginans or farmans,the status of Mhi your imaan on him.
What more you can get by reading many more ginan?
You achieve next step of baatin didar mainly with Ibaadat n just two words from Ali.
So waste time to torture the mind with useful or useless data.Noorani didar is much beyond that,where your mind stops n Ali speaks off from your heart.No books needed.
Read Imam SMS farman on ginan he has a rider when putting value of ginan with farman.
The words to UNDERSTAND(not language but baatin essence) and word spiritual ( enrich n inspiring).why he used that word because not every ginan was spiritually rich.
So digging with common sense in unwarranted vast ginan data is akin to Nafarmani,
This can delay your baatin didar maybe in next life cycle.
10 million words by xyz pirs is no class with 2 words given by Ali For salvation.
That is my firm conviction.
To impress other community for/on Isamiles,your ginan data won't be much help but farmans, some speeches of past few Imams can give more power as outsider may value progeny of Ali n may be not work of Pirs.
Avoid n ignore barking of non humans.that is also a farman.
Ali bless you.we shall meet in near future.
JYAADA PAD PAD KE DIMAG KA DAHI MAT KARO.
DO LABZO ME DUDH,MALAI,LASSI MAVE KA MAZAA LOOT LO.

[kmaherali]

You know from one or few ginans or farmans,the status of Mhi your imaan on him.
What more you can get by reading many more ginan?

Ginans are not only about knowing the status of the Imam. There is a lot of guidance, wisdom and the understanding of the metaphysics etc.

Why do you think that hundreds of Ginans have been composed if the message was only about Ali Allah.

Ginans provide the food for the soul.

[agakhani_1]

Nuseri who wrote BHUJ NIRIJAN is a so called ginan written by some Qadri sufi?

First of all!
This subject has been discussed earlier and has been proven that "BUJ NIRANJAN GRANTH" has been composed by Pir Sadardin. not any Sufi.

BYW: If Ginans hater Nuseri has some proof for his above saying then! I would love to read it! same question was asked to Mr.A. Asani and he was miserably failed to provide any proof because there is a none!

[Admin]

This is not the thread on Bhuj Nirijan. The above post will be deleted tonight. Please discuss this subject in the appropriate place.

[mazharshah]

Ya Ali Madad.
There would not be 10 full chapters but 10 more verses or Ayats.
There is a hint in that direction of manuscript of the holy book found in Yemen.
The world is paying price for this mid adventure n going the price will get much much heavier with both natural n man made disasters,which is already baffling the logics of many learned n scientific community.
BTW a presidential candidate wants to give early visas to heaven with hoors to non human souls, The creeping creature is really lucky.
Let the 10 verses take it own time to reappear ,just disregarding n not understanding the words IMAM E MUBEEN is a soft reality n reflection in that area of origin.It looks like a cursed zone to people with cosmopotilin ethics.
This a beginning, the end is mentioned in the holy book sent by Ali+lah= Allah or 1+0=1.
In school picnics we were told to to kiss the feet of the idols in temple.
Kissing a set printed pages does reflect acknowledgement not it acceptance.
Many countries have custom to kiss some holy books or constitution.
One must not take the face value of a picture to make narrow opinion.
Was any statement or declaration made n recorded by any from MHI during that pose.
If a stepson kissing his new mother's ,whom he hates.A picture of that pose does not hold ground in court of law.
Ankowledgement n Absolute acceptance n different meaning.
First is mainly out of peer pressures, laws,custom ,traditions etc.the second is firm decision of the person on it from his/her statement.

MSMS MENTIONED 10 CHAPTERS AND NOT 10 AYATS AS YOU WROTE.

Admin,
You edited my above post, I asked that brainless person if he has proof of those extra ayats found in Yemeni manuscript he should post them. In other post in which he wrote 'INSH ALLAH' you disappeared my reply also.
Please keep the record straight.

[Admin]

Admin,
You edited my above post, I asked that brainless person

insults are not encouraged on this board. Your emails will continue to be deleted until you start respecting people and using a respectable vocabulary. This also apply to those who reply to you and everyone else.

[mazharshah]

I know Urdu well. Having military back ground I know what is marna or marna. Why there are no comments against your uncle Nuseri who wrote BHUJ NIRIJAN is a so called ginan written by some Qadri sufi?
This is the third time I have marked you cursed central Asian/Afghani/Hunzai
Ismailis, when you come into your senses you realize what blunder you did, then you start praising them to pacify them. This won't work all the times, some day you may have to pay the price for disrespecting.

You still did not understand it. Leave it.

...

No, No, I never used word Yazid for any one on this site., you double check.

I indicated some historical facts. You have right to understand ginan in your way and I have right to understand my way, this does not mean that I am disrespecting pirs. I do not take threats, if you will respect me I shall respect you two fold.

[Admin]

Please stick to the thread and stop this 2 way conversation which leads nowhere.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad:
It is good to see our three eyed member throwing his hat in the ring.
I am extreme lover/liker of limited spiritual ginans not have my own opinion to vast data which is consuming time n resources to know it.
Kmaherali can you write 10 points on what direction n guidance were better in ginans and farmans made by two Imams in last 150 years?

[Admin]

No discussion on Ginan in this thread. Post in the Ginan thread. All irrelevant posts wil be deleted son from this thread so better post in the appropriate thread and do not let yourself distracted from the main discussion.

If there is nothing to be said on the Preamble, I will close this thread as it is starting to become a soup of anything and everything in a village fish market.

I wish there was some disciple and some understanding that each thread has a subject and one should not mix up everything everywhere as this is detrimental to the Forum which is supposed to be a place where every discussion on a particular subject can be followed at one specific place.

[kmaherali]

Kmaherali can you write 10 points on what direction n guidance were better in ginans and farmans made by two Imams in last 150 years?

I am not sure whether I understand you.

Of course all guidances and directions are always better in the ginans and farmans!

[mazharshah]

on Dec 2,2015, I saw on front page of this site a photo of Imam dancing in Uganda in 1966. Does Imam dances? I have not seen any dancing photo of any Imam for example of MSMS.

[Admin]

on Dec 2,2015, I saw on front page of this site a photo of Imam dancing in Uganda in 1966. Does Imam dances? I have not seen any dancing photo of any Imam for example of MSMS.

What does this subject has to do with the Preamble of the Constitution?

Indeed we are a community that welcomes the smile... especially when we see people shooting themselves in their foot and drowning in their own ignorance.





Please continue this discussion in the appropriate thread which is in http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 01&start=0

[mazharshah]

In what language MSMS at age of 8 delivered his very first Farman / Khutba, was that Arabic, Persian, English, or Hindi/Urdu. Also who wrote that Khutba.

[Admin]

Ismailis use the word Farman, not Khutba so your origin is now transparent.

Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah made a 2.5 hours Farmans ex-tempore, meaning he did not read a Khutba text prepared by anyone as you imply due to your non-ismaili background.

He made it in Hindi/Urdu which was the language of the place he was born.