quran as mentioned in preamble

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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mazharshah
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Post by mazharshah »

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad:
What H.Ali said in past may be of academic interest to me. I see ALI speaking in English and sending messages in English.
I am not locked into ALI of 1370 years back but very very much in one n only ALI of today.
If I praise ALI is that MHI of today and tomorrow.
I do not live in past dead era or language not that important.
I believe in the living and not much those who are not living.

So you are not interested in the legacies, historical and monumental works of our previous Imams. For you they are dead, they are past whether they spoke Arabic or Persian. Murtaza Ali did not spoke English so you have no interest in him. To day Shah Karim not only speaks English, but French, some Spanish and Italian, also Urdu and he understands Arabic. You don't say Du'a ( as you admitted in one of your posts ) may be because Du'a is in Arabic and not in English and obviously you are not even aware of names of all Imams!
mazharshah
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Post by mazharshah »

agakhani wrote:
I think except 30/40% of khojas/mominas, rest of Ismailis believe in Quran.
Where did you find above percentage? as I told you earlier that without any solid plat from and proper survey don't put any guessing! which has no value at all!!

Ismailis are Muslim first then after they are Ismailis, Ismaili is their sect to reach to the Allah and as a Muslim all Ismailis also believes and accepts Quran as Islam's holy book including my shelf.

But that is different story that Quran is not complete and has been altered many times (which we have a discussed in this forum) so that we have to rely on Bolta Quran "Rashikun fil Ilm!" and this person is our MHI!.

I am an Ismaili field worker. I have been meeting with Ismailis in various countries, with different back grounds, speaking different languages and having different cultures. By conversations and discussions and asking questions, I came to know; mostly all central Asian Ismailis, all Arab Ismails,
Chinese Ismailis, Ismailis from Chitral, Hunza, Punjab, Ismailis from late east Pakistan, and many African Ismailis do believe in Quran as word of Allah. They don't say Quran is altered or out dated. Only problem is with some khojas/mominas of subcontinent, rest of all Ismails believe in Quran as it is.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

mazharshah wrote: I came to know; mostly all central Asian Ismailis, all Arab Ismails,
Chinese Ismailis, Ismailis from Chitral, Hunza, Punjab, Ismailis from late east Pakistan, and many African Ismailis do believe in Quran as word of Allah. They don't say Quran is altered or out dated. Only problem is with some khojas/mominas of subcontinent, rest of all Ismails believe in Quran as it is.
MHI tells us in his Farmans there is strength in diversity. Therefore we as a diverse Jamat can learn good aspects of life from each other and illuminate each other. Wisdom and knowledge from one tradition can benefit other traditions.

Over the past few centuries, the khoja Jamat has had relative freedom to express their beielfs in the open and to seek knowledge from wherever. Other jamats especially from Central Asia did not have that priivilege until very recently. Hence these Jamats can benefit from the knowledge and wisdom of the Khoja Jamats.

Pir Shahbudin in his work: "The True Meaning of Religion" has told us that the Qur'an has been corrupted. So it is not that the Khojas are saying these things to create problems. Perhaps you as a community worker can educate the other other Jamats about this. Perhaps they were not aware of it. But it is more important for yourself to know that the Qur'an was corrupted. Below is the link.

"It is recorded in all histories, and every one knows how the Coran was
written down. It was not yet in the form as it is now. Every one possessed some portions of it, which he recited. Under 'Uthman the authorities selected some portions, rejecting others. It would be too long to narrate this in detail. Then they seized by force all the other copies, and burnt them.2 Thus the knowledge of the original Coran, which was really left by the Prophet, and which remains in the hands of his 'itrat, or legitimate successors, was taken from the people."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0693.html
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Tahrif al-Qur'an: A Study of Misconceptions Regarding Corruption of the Qur'anic
A Article in Al-Islam.org, a Shia Web site, authored by Muhammad Bakir Ansari states the following;
----- In any case, the issue of tahrif of the Holy Qur'an was one of the issues on which they maneuvered very much and spared no efforts in propagating all kinds of falsehood and fabrication in this connection. Without offering any rational proof, they attributed belief in tahrif of the Holy Qur'an to the Shi'ah. They believed that by doing so they could make the Muslims pessimistic toward the teachings of the school of thought of the Ahl al-Bayt (A).
These conspiracies prompted for the preparation of this article. Although the colonialists have always contrived to engage the Muslims in conflicts and to keep them busy with mutual polemics and debates with a view to rule over them.

Since this matter has not been sufficiently dealt with in the form of short articles for public benefit, this article has been designed to enter into this discussion very briefly, so as to enlighten the minds of all Muslims. Of course, in this respect, detailed books have been written and comprehensive research has been conducted, to which those interested in investigations into this subject can refer for further information. Among the best books on this subject is “al-Bayan”, written by Ayatullah al-`Uzma al-Sayyid Abu al-Qasim al-Khu'i. This book's discussion pertaining to absence of tahrif in the Holy Qur'an has been separately published in English.

Tahrif of the Qur'an as Viewed by Traditions
For those who have a slight familiarity with the books of both sects concerning ahadith (traditions), that is, the Sihah of the Sunnis and the various compilations of the traditions of the Shi'ah, it is manifestly clear that there are numerous traditions on the changes in the Holy Qur'an. Perhaps the traditions on this issue included within the books of the Sunnis are more in number than those of the Shi'ah.

Nevertheless, those who have bandied about this issue out of spite and not as an objective and unbiased scientific and scholarly discussion, have always avoided the slightest reference to the traditions included in the books belonging to the Sunnis. They have only zoomed their cameras upon few weak narrations given in the books by Shi'ah. These are the narrations that are not acceptable to the Shi'ah `Ulama' and based on these traditions, they have not issued their views and verdicts.----
Please read More-----
----

Respected Kbhia;

Please read this article, perhaps it will soften your stand on Tahrif of Quran. Yes for you words of Imam SMS and Pirs are sacrosanct. But for us on the other side they are words without evidence.

Please read this @ ****http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol4- ... /tahrif-al*****

Remove **** and paste link

ZAK, Salaam
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote:
Respected Kbhia;

Please read this article, perhaps it will soften your stand on Tahrif of Quran. Yes for you words of Imam SMS and Pirs are sacrosanct. But for us on the other side they are words without evidence.
zznoor,

I am not trying to impress my view on anyone. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. The article is interesting but it is unlikely to influence Ismailis. For me the statements of the Pir are binding. The evidence is there in the historical process of compilation.

Though I would again ask you, what or who is the Imame Mubeen to you? If you say that it is the book or the register like most translators, then it isas good as saying that the Qur'an is corrupt!
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Though I would again ask you, what or who is the Imame Mubeen to you?
I do not have any Imam.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote: I do not have any Imam.
Since it is mentioned in the Qur'an, how do you interpret it?
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Imam is mentioned 12 times in singular and plural form. Reading entire Aya plus preceding and following Ayas it does not mean hereditary Imam.
fayaz006
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Post by fayaz006 »

Kbhai I have tremendous amount of respect for you since you have exhibited the best of our ethics on this forum. However I think one saying from the science and engineering world applies here that is you cannot fix stupid. The following Ayla's especially the first one make an unassailable case for having a living imam

2-124 (You refuse to believe in and follow Muhammad chiefly because Prophethood was not retained with you and so he did not appear amongst you. Now, you surely do admit Abraham’s Prophethood, so) remember that his Lord tested Abraham with commands and ordeals (such as his being thrown into a fire, the destruction of the people of his kinsman Lot, and his being ordered to sacrifice his son Ishmael), and he fulfilled them thoroughly. He said: "Indeed I will make you an imam for all people." He (Abraham) pleaded: "(Will You appoint imams) also from my offspring?" He (his Lord) answered: "(I will appoint from among those who merit it. But) My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.

17-71 On the Day when We will call every human community with its leader: whoever (has followed a leader towards true faith and righteousness and accountability in the Hereafter) is given his Record (of his life) in his right hand – those will read their book with contentment and they will not be wronged by

21:73 And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

32:24 And so long as they remained patient (in adversity they met on the path of God) and they had certainty of faith in Our Revelations, We appointed from amongst them Imams (leaders) guiding by Our command (in accordance with Our ordinances)

36:12 Surely it is We Who will bring the dead to life; and We record what they send ahead (to the Hereafter) and what they leave behind (of good and evil). Everything We have written down and kept in a Manifest Imam

In the Quran arabic word imam is used to describe a leader.
You still havent answered my question whether you believe in Quran completely or bits and pieces?
The Quran makes the case for the end of prophet hood however it has made the case for unending guidance " light upon light" . Again it's pretty useless trying to educate somebody who thinks they know everything trust me I've tried
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote:Imam is mentioned 12 times in singular and plural form. Reading entire Aya plus preceding and following Ayas it does not mean hereditary Imam.
Granted that it is not the hereditory Imam as you say, then what is it to you?It must convey a concept, Allah would not mention without a purpose or reason.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
you have a simple question from last two months again n again.
what does the word/words Imame Mubeen means.
we do not need in what you believe or follow which of his word etc?
that is your faith/Imaan or alignment to any 'ism'
No question is asked by in that regard.
simple question needs honest reply from educated mind

2) what is observation as educated reader (not ideological stand or faith)
of a verse coming as surprise between in Surah 5:3 .
Is that verse totally fits n complement the ayat in early parts of HB or looks out of sync or place?.( Remember the author Ali+lah= Allah being most intelligent does NOT make mistakes).

3) A common sense question for all.

water has around for over millions years.Lot have been written about it from ages.(tafseer)

The true property of water being being hydrogendioxide came to be known only 180 years back or less.

WHY WHY this was not known to mankind before that discovery date/period?
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.
I am still awaiting zznoor to reply in just few words on first two questions.
and the answer from our team of learned historians in few words for the third question.

To Admin;Ya Ali Madad.

Please can you help me to recompose my question to make it more simpler or readable as to get answer for it. (be a mwanzee/buzurg)
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad.
I am still awaiting zznoor to reply in just few words on first two questions.
Silence is a form of an answer!
sameernoorani5
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Post by sameernoorani5 »

Uncle Kmaherali, can you explain what is difference between God and Godhead? Thanks.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

sameernoorani5 wrote:Uncle Kmaherali, can you explain what is difference between God and Godhead? Thanks.
God pertains to the function - an object of worship, ruler and creator. Godhead pertains to the nature of God as the Divine Essence - the formless without descrption.
sameernoorani5
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Post by sameernoorani5 »

kmaherali wrote:
sameernoorani5 wrote:Uncle Kmaherali, can you explain what is difference between God and Godhead? Thanks.
God pertains to the function - an object of worship, ruler and creator. Godhead pertains to the nature of God as the Divine Essence - the formless without descrption.

Uncle what I understood from your explaination is; that God has a nature
(which is laws of nature) who is ruler of universe has an another aspect of divine nature which is divine essence who is Imam on planet earth.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

sameernoorani5 wrote:Uncle what I understood from your explaination is; that God has a nature
(which is laws of nature) who is ruler of universe has an another aspect of divine nature which is divine essence who is Imam on planet earth.
We have the 'qualities' or description of God as being the Unseen, Indescribable, Formless Divine Essence whose Mazhar is the Imam.

Then we have functions of God as the Ruler, Creator and the object of worship.
tret
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Post by tret »

kmaherali wrote:
Then we have functions of God as the Ruler, Creator and the object of worship.
This is the view of "theistic personalists", which is different than monoreality.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

tret wrote:This is the view of "theistic personalists", which is different than monoreality.
Welcome Back! What would then be the function of God in terms of monoreality?
tret
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Post by tret »

kmaherali wrote:
tret wrote:This is the view of "theistic personalists", which is different than monoreality.
Welcome Back! What would then be the function of God in terms of monoreality?
God doesn't interfere with His creation.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.
Welcome back.If a garden with variety of plants n flowers with fragnance which has regular vistors ,the garden management must be VERY VERY careful it does not infested with serpents. At it may shoo away regular valuable visitors.Tret is one of them.
JAGYA ETLEE SAVAAR.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

tret wrote: God doesn't interfere with His creation.
Memoirs of MSMS:

"The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will."
mazharshah
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Post by mazharshah »

kmaherali wrote:
tret wrote: God doesn't interfere with His creation.
Memoirs of MSMS:

"The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will."
No doubt creation is perpetual.
In other words we can say, God is thinking, planing and acting according to His will. What is difference in willing and wishing?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

mazharshah wrote: What is difference in willing and wishing?
To will is to deliberately decide and chose a course of action. To wish is to desire something. In my opinion in this context they mean the same.
tret
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Post by tret »

kmaherali wrote:
tret wrote: God doesn't interfere with His creation.
Memoirs of MSMS:

"The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will."
I guess what I was saying, is that the theistic personalist view is that there's this personal God who interferes in the world.
As it's been expounded by Ismaili thinkers and theologians and Hujjats that God is unchangeable, because whatever is subject to change is bound by time. And God is beyond time/space and hence doesn't change.
Ruler/Creator is referred to The First cause [The Universal Intellect] or the Proof of God.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

tret wrote:I guess what I was saying, is that the theistic personalist view is that there's this personal God who interferes in the world.
As it's been expounded by Ismaili thinkers and theologians and Hujjats that God is unchangeable, because whatever is subject to change is bound by time. And God is beyond time/space and hence doesn't change.
Ruler/Creator is referred to The First cause [The Universal Intellect] or the Proof of God.
According to the google definition: A personal god is a deity who can be related to as a person instead of as an impersonal force, such as the Absolute, "the All", or the "Ground of Being".

That I think that very much accords with the Ismaili concept of a Mazhar or a Hujjah. In that sense the unchangeable God can influence and relate to the creation and the creation can relate to the unchangeable God through the Mazhar.

For Ismailis, the intervention happens all the time but from the point of view of history it can happen in particular moments such as the intervention of the Das Avtaars and the Prophets.
mazharshah
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Post by mazharshah »

kmaherali wrote:
tret wrote:I guess what I was saying, is that the theistic personalist view is that there's this personal God who interferes in the world.
As it's been expounded by Ismaili thinkers and theologians and Hujjats that God is unchangeable, because whatever is subject to change is bound by time. And God is beyond time/space and hence doesn't change.
Ruler/Creator is referred to The First cause [The Universal Intellect] or the Proof of God.
According to the google definition: A personal god is a deity who can be related to as a person instead of as an impersonal force, such as the Absolute, "the All", or the "Ground of Being".

That I think that very much accords with the Ismaili concept of a Mazhar or a Hujjah. In that sense the unchangeable God can influence and relate to the creation and the creation can relate to the unchangeable God through the Mazhar.

For Ismailis, the intervention happens all the time but from the point of view of history it can happen in particular moments such as the intervention of the Das Avtaars and the Prophets.

I wander when evil spread on earth Avtaars and Prophets came to put house in order and give Godly guidance. But past 1400 years, if there is any Avtaar or incarnation he looks helpless to sort out the problems and divisions on planet earth. Earthly people need peace and tranquility.
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Post by Admin »

The subject if this discussion is Quran in Preamble.

Any other discussin should be carried in appropriate thread and will be deleted from this thread.
mazharshah
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Post by mazharshah »

Were Ismaili dais influenced by Ishraqi philosophy of light?
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Post by Admin »

mazharshah wrote:Were Ismaili dais influenced by Ishraqi philosophy of light?
What does that haveto do with the Constitution. Put this question into a new thread in Doctrine please.
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