Explaination needed of Koran Ayat.

[ShamsB]

tret, here is the translation of the old dua which is in a forum. You don't need a password. Can you read this and tell us if the dua you had in farsi is the same or different from this one. Thanks

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hlight=dua

From the translation, this is not what Farsi old Du'a is.

But note that the 'old dua" in the thread link provided does not contain names of the Imams PreAli.

Someone told me that the "old dua" had the names of preAli Imams.

can anybody clarify ?

There were 2 old dua's - one was for daily - the other was for ghatpat.

Both were recited. Someone should have a copy of the old ghatpat dua. These names are mentioned in there.

Shams

[tret]

The PreAlid Imam's - mentioned in Paradise of Submission - by Nasiruddin Tusi - go take a look.
..

Want to go to the Prophet's time?
"Ali you are to me as Harun was to Musa"

Btw - the list of Pre Alid Imams - isn't just Hindus - which proves you have no knowledge or idea.
Harun was on the list

Shams - You are referencing Tusi's work as reference, without providing or quoting a passage. Please a reference will only make your claim more credible and valid and give you basis for your stand.

Imam Ali was the first Manifest Imam as we know it to do the Tah'wil of the divine message after the prophet. However the concept of Tah'wil existed since Prophet Adam, where the spiritual world came to existence. And every Major prophet (Natiq, according to Ismaili terminology) had a Wasi (Or legatee) who is in the same rank as Maula Ali is to the Prophet at his time. This is what Hadis of Prophet Mohammad was indicating.

[a_27826]

Imam Ali was the first Manifest Imam as we know it to do the Tah'wil of the divine message after the prophet. However the concept of Tah'wil existed since Prophet Adam, where the spiritual world came to existence. And every Major prophet (Natiq, according to Ismaili terminology) had a Wasi (Or legatee) who is in the same rank as Maula Ali is to the Prophet at his time. This is what Hadis of Prophet Mohammad was indicating.

As i understand the world cannot exist without Imam of the Time.

Now you are implying that Imams before Imam Ali were only present when Prophets were sent, to assist them.

But the Prophets were not always present, that is, sometimes there were gaps between one Prophet and the next.

So i am i wrong in my understanding that "the world can not exist without Imam being present" ?

[tret]

Imam Ali was the first Manifest Imam as we know it to do the Tah'wil of the divine message after the prophet. However the concept of Tah'wil existed since Prophet Adam, where the spiritual world came to existence. And every Major prophet (Natiq, according to Ismaili terminology) had a Wasi (Or legatee) who is in the same rank as Maula Ali is to the Prophet at his time. This is what Hadis of Prophet Mohammad was indicating.

As i understand the world cannot exist without Imam of the Time.

Now you are implying that Imams before Imam Ali were only present when Prophets were sent, to assist them.

But the Prophets were not always present, that is, sometimes there were gaps between one Prophet and the next.

So i am i wrong in my understanding that "the world can not exist without Imam being present" ?

By Imam of the Time [or Imam] it's meant the Nur of Imamat in spiritual realm. The existence of the Divine Intellect on earth, which was the case since Prophet Adam. That's why there are references that Ali was there from the beginning and will be there till the end. Ali in fact is referred to that Divine Intellect.

[sheri]

Here is the list of IMAMs as told by members of this forum that it was recited by them in the ghatpat dua.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ri&start=0

Based on the VISHANAPURI, Adam came to this world after Krishna.

Now according to the Hindu scriptures the birth date of Krisha is July 27, 3112 BCE.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... 753386.ece

Now according to the Abrahimic scriptures the birth date of Adam is 3700 -4004 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

So, did adam come before krisha or did krishna come before adam. Give a straight answer, don't beat around the bush.

[ShamsB]

The PreAlid Imam's - mentioned in Paradise of Submission - by Nasiruddin Tusi - go take a look.
..

Want to go to the Prophet's time?
"Ali you are to me as Harun was to Musa"

Btw - the list of Pre Alid Imams - isn't just Hindus - which proves you have no knowledge or idea.
Harun was on the list

Shams - You are referencing Tusi's work as reference, without providing or quoting a passage. Please a reference will only make your claim more credible and valid and give you basis for your stand.

Imam Ali was the first Manifest Imam as we know it to do the Tah'wil of the divine message after the prophet. However the concept of Tah'wil existed since Prophet Adam, where the spiritual world came to existence. And every Major prophet (Natiq, according to Ismaili terminology) had a Wasi (Or legatee) who is in the same rank as Maula Ali is to the Prophet at his time. This is what Hadis of Prophet Mohammad was indicating.

Um no
"O Apostle - Deliver to the people what has been REVEALED to thee from Thy lord."

Allah in the Quran - says - I don't change my habit - my pattern....

And my belief is that there always has been a physcial Imam - and that line is through Hazrat Ali.

You can choose to believe it or not - or you can drink the kool aid that Sheri's been spewing and join her.

I've told you to look in the Paradise of Submission - and by that mean the WHOLE BOOK.

Shams

[tret]

Um no
"O Apostle - Deliver to the people what has been REVEALED to thee from Thy lord."

Allah in the Quran - says - I don't change my habit - my pattern....

And my belief is that there always has been a physcial Imam - and that line is through Hazrat Ali.

You can choose to believe it or not - or you can drink the kool aid that Sheri's been spewing and join her.

I've told you to look in the Paradise of Submission - and by that mean the WHOLE BOOK.

Shams

Allah certainly don't change. Change is only with Time, and God/Allah is not bound with Time or Change. Human change, Humanity change. Not Allah/God. I don't think that's the question here.

First, I disagree with your reference, by alluding, 'go read the entire book'. I could do the same, and tell you, 'go read the entire Qur'an'. I was expecting something specific to backup your claim!, such as a verse, a paragraph directly related to the topic of our discussion.

So, referring to an entire book, is suggesting to do some reading, not necessarily backing up your argument.

I also asked you, if you knew the belief framework of Tusi's or Nasir Khusraw's, but got no reply! (If you know anything, please I'd like some elaboration)

On the same token, I'd suggest you read the 'Knowledge and Liberation', published by IIS and I am pretty sure it is available in your local JK. and see how the concept of God/Imam/Creation/Knowledge is expounded!

I think you still have difficulty digesting what I just tried to explain, or I can not explain myself better.

Tah'wil = complement of Tanzil existed since the beginning of the world. Harun was Wasi of Musa who was the same rank as Maula Ali to Prophet Muhammad. Even in the Qur'an it's mentioned the ranks. Ranks (Hadd/Hudood) is of immense importance, in Islam and specially in Ismaili tariqa. And if you pay attention, I said Tah'wil existed since the origination, however, the Manifest Imam started at Imam Ali. That's why in our Du'a we start by Imam Ali.

Just a side note, if I were you, I would lose the personal comments a side, for it really don't suite someone with intellect, and I strongly believe you are very intelligent with good sense of reasoning. I have always appreciated your comments and inputs.

[ShamsB]

Imam Ali was the first Manifest Imam as we know it to do the Tah'wil of the divine message after the prophet. However the concept of Tah'wil existed since Prophet Adam, where the spiritual world came to existence. And every Major prophet (Natiq, according to Ismaili terminology) had a Wasi (Or legatee) who is in the same rank as Maula Ali is to the Prophet at his time. This is what Hadis of Prophet Mohammad was indicating.

As i understand the world cannot exist without Imam of the Time.

Now you are implying that Imams before Imam Ali were only present when Prophets were sent, to assist them.

But the Prophets were not always present, that is, sometimes there were gaps between one Prophet and the next.

So i am i wrong in my understanding that "the world can not exist without Imam being present" ?

By Imam of the Time [or Imam] it's meant the Nur of Imamat in spiritual realm. The existence of the Divine Intellect on earth, which was the case since Prophet Adam. That's why there are references that Ali was there from the beginning and will be there till the end. Ali in fact is referred to that Divine Intellect.

That is your understand - not mine.

Please don't shove your understanding as the correct one for all Ismailies.

Also Sheri - go learn about the ADAMS
not one ADAM - but different ADAMS

There was the ADAM that descended from Heaven - and there was the ADAM ABUL BASHR
and no - this isn't Hindu mythology - but actually ARABIC and ISLAMIC THEOLOGY
but how will you know -
you don't even understand the basic tenets of Ismailism - how are we to expect that you will know all of this.

Krishna was before the ADAM of this AGE - Imam of the last age...this is a new cycle.
Oh before you go into a hindu bashing mode - the notion of Ages is not unique to Hindu thought - but also a key part of Arabic thought - the idea of cycles - but once again - way beyond your IQ level.

You stick to what you understand and derive happiness from that.
Let us stick to what we understand.
And please don't self appoint yourselves as the spokespeople of all Ismailes.

Oh and the mention of PreAlid Imams - all over Tusi's works - and he wasn't a hindu convert - and nor was he trying to convert Hindus.

In regards to the "spiritual noor" always being present - there is a farman of Imam Jafar as Sadiq - if there were only 2 men left on the earth - one of them would be the IMAM.
The Imam has always been present - physically - knowledge of who the Imam is - has been hidden. Without an Imam the world will perish...
Now your interpretation maybe it is a spiritual noor - and ours is that it is a physical manifestation.
that list of Pre Alid Imams - contains Haroon and Shimun Shafa (Simon Peter).
Now it is better to admit that you don't understand this - and we are unable to explain it further - and let it be - but don't appoint yourselves spokespeople for the Ismailies.
Oh and btw - the central Ismaili tradition - also acknowledges the notion of a PreAlid Imam - and that the Imam must be manifest at all times; so I don't know what you're quoting or referring to Tret when you say this is not part of that tradition.
I have spent time talking to elders not only in Syria but Central Asia and China and have discussed their traditions and belief system.
You'll ask for a reference - here it is....
"The Manifestation of the Imam is essential for the Existence of the
World.
It is also necessary to know that the Imam must necessarily exist in all three kawns, i.e., worlds, - material, spiritual and cosmic, because he is in fact the "indispensably existent," and every thing besides him is but "possibly existent."By this latter name anything is called which cannot exist by itself. And as now all these "possibly existent" objects in fact exist, (it follows that) the Imam is manifested in their generic class in both worlds (kawn). Where it not so, the worlds (akwan) could not exist."

Fasl dar Bayan-I Shinakht-I Imam
Translated from Farsi by Ivanow - truly a good book - Badakshani/Tajiki in origin. Not of Indian origin.
Section 3 - The fourfold knowledge of the Imam.

as per this text - which as I'll point out to you and a2786 and Sheri - is NOT HINDU OR INDIAN IN ORIGIN - but rather Central Asian the notion of PreAlid Imams - is all around - now in your "sunni" islamic approach - you may not choose to accept it - that is a different story.


Shams

[sheri]

Shams you have again resorted to the spin tactics.

Based on your many Adam comment: so and Adam came in 4004BC, then Krishna came in 3112BC, then Adam came again (when??) because Seth and all the other IMAMs came during the 4004BC time frame. Do we have many Krishna's as well.

[tret]

As i understand the world cannot exist without Imam of the Time.

Now you are implying that Imams before Imam Ali were only present when Prophets were sent, to assist them.

But the Prophets were not always present, that is, sometimes there were gaps between one Prophet and the next.

So i am i wrong in my understanding that "the world can not exist without Imam being present" ?

By Imam of the Time [or Imam] it's meant the Nur of Imamat in spiritual realm. The existence of the Divine Intellect on earth, which was the case since Prophet Adam. That's why there are references that Ali was there from the beginning and will be there till the end. Ali in fact is referred to that Divine Intellect.

That is your understand - not mine.

Please don't shove your understanding as the correct one for all Ismailies.

Also Sheri - go learn about the ADAMS
not one ADAM - but different ADAMS

There was the ADAM that descended from Heaven - and there was the ADAM ABUL BASHR
and no - this isn't Hindu mythology - but actually ARABIC and ISLAMIC THEOLOGY
but how will you know -
you don't even understand the basic tenets of Ismailism - how are we to expect that you will know all of this.

Krishna was before the ADAM of this AGE - Imam of the last age...this is a new cycle.
Oh before you go into a hindu bashing mode - the notion of Ages is not unique to Hindu thought - but also a key part of Arabic thought - the idea of cycles - but once again - way beyond your IQ level.

You stick to what you understand and derive happiness from that.
Let us stick to what we understand.
And please don't self appoint yourselves as the spokespeople of all Ismailes.

Oh and the mention of PreAlid Imams - all over Tusi's works - and he wasn't a hindu convert - and nor was he trying to convert Hindus.

In regards to the "spiritual noor" always being present - there is a farman of Imam Jafar as Sadiq - if there were only 2 men left on the earth - one of them would be the IMAM.
The Imam has always been present - physically - knowledge of who the Imam is - has been hidden. Without an Imam the world will perish...
Now your interpretation maybe it is a spiritual noor - and ours is that it is a physical manifestation.
that list of Pre Alid Imams - contains Haroon and Shimun Shafa (Simon Peter).
Now it is better to admit that you don't understand this - and we are unable to explain it further - and let it be - but don't appoint yourselves spokespeople for the Ismailies.
Oh and btw - the central Ismaili tradition - also acknowledges the notion of a PreAlid Imam - and that the Imam must be manifest at all times; so I don't know what you're quoting or referring to Tret when you say this is not part of that tradition.
I have spent time talking to elders not only in Syria but Central Asia and China and have discussed their traditions and belief system.
You'll ask for a reference - here it is....
"The Manifestation of the Imam is essential for the Existence of the
World.
It is also necessary to know that the Imam must necessarily exist in all three kawns, i.e., worlds, - material, spiritual and cosmic, because he is in fact the "indispensably existent," and every thing besides him is but "possibly existent."By this latter name anything is called which cannot exist by itself. And as now all these "possibly existent" objects in fact exist, (it follows that) the Imam is manifested in their generic class in both worlds (kawn). Where it not so, the worlds (akwan) could not exist."

Fasl dar Bayan-I Shinakht-I Imam
Translated from Farsi by Ivanow - truly a good book - Badakshani/Tajiki in origin. Not of Indian origin.
Section 3 - The fourfold knowledge of the Imam.

as per this text - which as I'll point out to you and a2786 and Sheri - is NOT HINDU OR INDIAN IN ORIGIN - but rather Central Asian the notion of PreAlid Imams - is all around - now in your "sunni" islamic approach - you may not choose to accept it - that is a different story.


Shams

Brother Shams, First and foremost, I never intend to shove my ideas and beliefs down to others throat or to be the only correct for all ismailis. What I say, is my understanding from the works of Ismaili thinkers and philosophers of Fatimid era, such as Tusi and Nasir-e-Khusraw to name a couple of them and not my fabrication and propaganda or the influence of the culture where I grew up.

If you this impression of me imposing my ideas on you and others, I apologize. I am simply expressing my POV, and everyone's welcome to agree or disagree or challenge me. I think no one's obliged to comply to anyone's belief or POV in this forum. However every's welcome to express their POV. Nothing wrong with that.

I think I am still having trouble explaining my self, or you are not reading between lines.

I am not denying the existence of Nur-e-Imamat pre-Ali at all. I am rather distinguishing between Nur-e-Imamat and Manifest Imam as-we-know-it.

You call it Imam, but I call it Wasi of Natiq, fine with me.

My question was actually related to Ali = Allah. I asked you reference to support your assertion of Ali=Allah, and I am still waiting to see.

[sheri]

We are all waiting for references:

reference of Ali=Allah in dua
reference of Ali=Allah in old dua (aka asal dua)
reference of Ali=Allah in authentic farmans approved by MHI or previous IMAM that was published by an approved publisher.

Unless these references cannot be produced or found, this debate will remain undecided. With the default belief being that of the constitution.

[ShamsB]

We are all waiting for references:

reference of Ali=Allah in dua
reference of Ali=Allah in old dua (aka asal dua)
reference of Ali=Allah in authentic farmans approved by MHI or previous IMAM that was published by an approved publisher.

Unless these references cannot be produced or found, this debate will remain undecided. With the default belief being that of the constitution.

You've been told where to look - it is upto you to go do the research.

If you're serious about learning - go do the research.

Seems like you never had the intent to learn - but rather to come on here and demonstrate your so called "intellectual" superiority and "enlightenment".
You act like you have it all figured it.

You claimed that Ali Allah wasn't in the old du'a - assuming that none of us knew the old dua - you were proved wrong...once again - go read the old du'a.
The names of the pre alid imams - read "paradise of submission" the WHOLE BOOK - i've also named other texts that have this.
I also posted from a farsi - central asian text - with the name ...
And you were told to look for the farmans of aga ali shah and hassan ali shah
You said - oh there might be transmission errors.

You posted an interview quote of Hazar imam that according to your interpretation definitevly had the Imam saying he isn't god -
i showed you he didn't say that - another interpretation.
It also begs the thought that should one educate you on the difference between the Shah and the Pir - and was hazar imam speaking as the Shah or the Pir?
Keep in mind - we have the WILL of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah appointing Shah Karim as Shah and PIR...so that you can't deny..
but i think that is way above what you are capable of comprehending.

It seems like you don't want to learn - you are adamant that you are right and everyone else is wrong and have appointed yourself spokesperson for the Ismailies...

Go buy the paradise of submission (an IIS publication) read it.
I quoted the Fasl Dar shanakit i imam..(spelling) - look for that - read that
go get Spirituality in Shi'a Islam - also an IIS publication and read that.

FYI - the whole notion of Ali - Allah is very important to the Imam - watch it come back into REC.

Shams

[ShamsB]

We are all waiting for references:

reference of Ali=Allah in dua
reference of Ali=Allah in old dua (aka asal dua)
reference of Ali=Allah in authentic farmans approved by MHI or previous IMAM that was published by an approved publisher.

Unless these references cannot be produced or found, this debate will remain undecided. With the default belief being that of the constitution.

Also i forgot - you don't even know what you recite in the Du'a,
you sure you qualified to have this discussion.

First understand what you're reciting in the Du'a - make the connections.

Six parts of Du'a and you haven't connected them...alas.

Shams

[ShamsB]

We are all waiting for references:

reference of Ali=Allah in dua
reference of Ali=Allah in old dua (aka asal dua)
reference of Ali=Allah in authentic farmans approved by MHI or previous IMAM that was published by an approved publisher.

Unless these references cannot be produced or found, this debate will remain undecided. With the default belief being that of the constitution.

Also i forgot - you don't even know what you recite in the Du'a,
you sure you qualified to have this discussion.

First understand what you're reciting in the Du'a - make the connections.

Six parts of Du'a and you haven't connected them...alas.

Shams

This debate will keep on going for a long time - because it is based on an individual's faith and their level of understanding.
it is based on the individual's relationship to the Imam or lack thereof.

Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah and Hazar Imam on many occasions have said - I am who you consider me to be - if you think of me as your friend - i am your friend - if you think of me as your guide, i am your guide....
He has left it open to individuals...
why are you adamant on trying to put labels - let people believe what they want to...
As Hazar Imam said in the Walk the Talk interview - the basic premise in Islam is the Shahadah - once someone says that they are a muslim.

In the same vein - the basic and common tenet in Ismailism is ba'yah to the Imam of the Time.
That is all that is required for one to be an Ismaili..and to me - that is what makes an Ismaili and that should be the definition of an Ismaili.

One that has given Ba'yah to the Imam of the Time.

Shams

[ShamsB]

it seems "old dua" your are referring to is different from "old dua" Sheri is referring to, assuming Sheri not from Indian origin.

so how many forms of obligatory salats we had before this current uniform "dua" ?


To Tret:

What was the form of salat in your area before our current uniformed "dua" ?

Salat (Namaz) and Du'a has always co-existed, historically in Ismaili tariqa.
Where I grew up (Even today in those regions of Central Asia), Ismailies have Jama'at Khana as well as Mosque where Ismailis offer Salat and Du'a.
I remember hearing from older generations, that Ismailies weren't allowed to have JK and practice our religious rituals openly, and they only had Mosque with proper Minbar and they were offering Salat; the Du'a was offered after Salat (kind of in secret, individually), where as Salat was performed formally with the Azan.
Today, with the grace of Maula, Ismailies have Jam'at Khana openly and practice our tariqa rituals openly; and at the same time Ismailies have mosuqes and offer Namaz (Salat) too.

My personal belief, and it's only mine, as I have always emphasized!

The intention of Du'a and Salat are the same. We offer our supplication and prayers to the Almighty Allah, whether we do it in form of Du'a or Salat, we achieve the same goal. If one decides to offer Salat besides Du'a, it's all good. Ismaili tariqa, nor the Imams, do not forbid offering Salat. But, if one decides to only offer Du'a and not Salat -- in my personal view -- since the intention is the same, then we still achieve the same goal.

What you are stating is against the Ismaili Tariqah

The Du'a is the prescribed prayer of the Ismailies - we are OBLIGATED to recite the Du'a. Nothing can be said in place of Du'a.
One cannot say I recited Namaz or Salat - in place of Du'a.
In our Jamatkhanas - the prayer - common prayer recited is the Du'a
That is the communal prayer not the Salat.

One can offer Salat in ADDITION to reciting Du'a - NOT in LIEU of the Du'a.

Please check with your local ITREB on what Hazar Imam's instructions and guidance is on the Ismaili Namaz - whenever it is released; there has already been guidance from the Imam in regards to this to prepare the Jamat.
First get that sorted out - what the tenet of Ismailism is.
Your personal feeling maybe it is okay to offer the Salat in place of Du'a- but in this instance - it isn't what the Imam prescribes and nor what Ismailism prescribes.
Shams

[sheri]

Shams you confirmed that you are basing your Ali=Allah belief based on connections and interpretations you have made from the dua. There is no DIRECT REFERENCE in the dua, or old dua.

I just wanted to confirm that. Thank you. Feel free to interpret as you wish. I am not arguing with you to prove your beliefs wrong. You are free to believe and make connections as you wish. I am more concerned about any DIRECT REFERENCES made. That's all.

[ShamsB]

Shams you confirmed that you are basing your Ali=Allah belief based on connections and interpretations you have made from the dua. There is no DIRECT REFERENCE in the dua, or old dua.

I just wanted to confirm that. Thank you. Feel free to interpret as you wish. I am not arguing with you to prove your beliefs wrong. You are free to believe and make connections as you wish. I am more concerned about any DIRECT REFERENCES made. That's all.

So once again
The old Du'a - did say Ali = Allah - and that's what you're not getting.
The current Du'a - also - Ali = Allah - you're still not getting it.

Farmans - yes....as well.

That's all I'll say.

Just because you can't see the Sun - because you have blindfolded yourself and wearing sunglasses at noon - doesn't mean the Sun isn't there.

Shams

[tret]

To Shams -

It's said, when something can't be solved, go back to basic (where you started).

- Let's clarify how do we perceive God/Allah?


Please elaborate a little more than, simply Ali = Allah.

I'd like to hear, how do you perceive God/Allah.

This will clarify all the disputes.

[sheri]

I don't care about your interpretation.

PLEASE PROVIDE DIRECT REFERENCE.

Here is the old dua.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hlight=dua

It also has "Aliyyu'llah"

[Admin]

Ali Ullah is more powerfull statement than Ali Sahi Allah.

Ali-Ullah means the Highest of Allah, in the same way NabiUllah means the Nabi of Allah.

[sheri]

If you refer to the footnote (3) associated with Aliyu'llah it clearly says " Ali is from Allah" not "Ali is Allah."

This is the official meaning, which is also in the current dua. THIS IS A DIRECT REFERENCE. PLEASE PROVIDE SUCH DIRECT REFERENCES.

[Admin]

You need to take Arabic class. The translation you have given is not an accurate translation. If Nabi Ullah is Nabi of Allah, the closest translation would be Ali Ullah is Ali "OF"Allah, not Ali "from" Allah.

As I said we can debate for eternity on the subject, we know you will not be convinced so please agree to disagree and lets move on.

This is a matter of faith and clearly a concept which you can not diggest at this stage of your quest.

[sheri]

This is a matter of faith and clearly a concept which you can not diggest at this stage of your quest.

So you are very certain that you have reached a higher spiritual level than me and others. So, if I accept Ali=Allah then I will be at the same spiritual level as you. This is a quite laughable statement.

Now going back to the subject: So, the definition provided in the official documents is WRONG. Only the Admin & his chosen people were given the RIGHT definition of Aliyu'llah by the IMAM. The dua books are misquoted and WRONG. Admin is RIGHT. Again quite a laughable statement.

[sheri]

Here is the meaning of "Waliyullah" this is the closest to the word "Aliyullah." Note only "W" is missing.

See the translation on this website. This is the Islamic dictionary

Meaning: Waliyullah is composed of two words: wali and Allah. Together they mean 'Leader from Allah' or 'Leader chosen by Allah'.

Thereby: Aliyuallah is composed of two wordds: Ali and Allah. Together they mean "Ali from Allah" or "Ali chosen by Allah"

http://www.islamic-dictionary.com/index ... waliyullah

[ShamsB]

This is a matter of faith and clearly a concept which you can not diggest at this stage of your quest.

So you are very certain that you have reached a higher spiritual level than me and others. So, if I accept Ali=Allah then I will be at the same spiritual level as you. This is a quite laughable statement.

Now going back to the subject: So, the definition provided in the official documents is WRONG. Only the Admin & his chosen people were given the RIGHT definition of Aliyu'llah by the IMAM. The dua books are misquoted and WRONG. Admin is RIGHT. Again quite a laughable statement.

Ali=Allah is not an acceptance.
It is a realization - that is what we've been trying to tell you.

You seem to want to shove your stuff down our throat again.

You claim to want to learn - yet you keep coming back to trying to prove Ali=Allah wrong.

Just because you say it over and over and over and over again - will not mean it's not true.

You want to learn - start with a clean slate - not with biases and prejudices.

Shams

[sheri]

You are saying the meaning in the Dua is wrong. You don't provide references for firmans. I keep on giving references and you tell me that I am shoving my beliefs down your throat.

Give REFERENCE. Not a single REFERENCE has yet been provided from an authentic source that I can validate and accept your claims. NOT A SINGLE REFERENCE, Mr SHAMS. NOT A SINGLE REFERENCE.

Dua, Farman and documents approved by IMAM are authentic references. Please provide AUTHENTIC REFERENCES.

[ShamsB]

You are saying the meaning in the Dua is wrong. You don't provide references for firmans. I keep on giving references and you tell me that I am shoving my beliefs down your throat.

Give REFERENCE. Not a single REFERENCE has yet been provided from an authentic source that I can validate and accept your claims. NOT A SINGLE REFERENCE, Mr SHAMS. NOT A SINGLE REFERENCE.

Dua, Farman and documents approved by IMAM are authentic references. Please provide AUTHENTIC REFERENCES.

Mission Conference 1956.

Quotes have been provided as have been references - and these are in English.
But somehow maybe you've blocked out where the proof exists.

The Sun is infront of you - open your eyes and feel the heat.

or better yet - learn how to read and eat humble pie.

Shams

[tret]

To Shams -

It's said, when something can't be solved, go back to basic (where you started).

- Let's clarify how do we perceive God/Allah?


Please elaborate a little more than, simply Ali = Allah.

I'd like to hear, how do you perceive God/Allah.

This will clarify all the disputes.

Shams - I don't know why are you avoiding this question?

I believe this would settle down everything!

[tret]

Knowledge of Imam should be conveyed to the Murid through Pir[Hujjat]; because Murid doesn't have the capacity to digest the true meaning of the message. That's why there were Hujjats/Dai's/Pir's. Knowledge of [previous] Imams were delievered through Hujjats/Pir's and Dai's. In today's day and age, MHI delivers His knowledge to the murids, because MHI occupies the both stations of Imamat (Shah & Pir). If murids attempt to directly interpret knowledge of Imam [in the existence of Pir], knowledge of Imam can be so intense like fire, that murids won't have the capacity to digest.

[tret]

...
Fasl dar Bayan-I Shinakht-I Imam
Translated from Farsi by Ivanow - truly a good book - Badakshani/Tajiki in origin. Not of Indian origin.
Section 3 - The fourfold knowledge of the Imam.

as per this text - which as I'll point out to you and a2786 and Sheri - is NOT HINDU OR INDIAN IN ORIGIN - but rather Central Asian the notion of PreAlid Imams - is all around - now in your "sunni" islamic approach - you may not choose to accept it - that is a different story.
...

So, since you have apparently read "Paradise of Submission" to back your stant on PreAlid Imam/Imamat, I guess it would be appropriate to ask you a question from the same book. In Tasawwur 2 "On the Procession of all things from His Almighty and Holy Command" the following concept have been discussed. I'd really like to know what's your understanding about the following concepts?

Once I hear your understanding, I'd be glad to give you my understanding.


- Subh'ana Tah'alah / Almighty Allah[God]
- The Divine Command[Amr / Kalima]
- The Creation
- The First Intellect (Universal Intellect)
- The Universal Soul & Individual Soul