He is saying that the belief about today being Kali Yuga the dark age is a Hindu belief and not Ismaili. To think of our time as being a dark age can imprint negative and destructive patterns in our thinking. It is not healthy to think that way.
Then why Pir said in there Ginans that this era is Kaljug, Pir predicted about Kaljug by predicting about Planes, Phones, Diesel, etc
1. 0 brother believer! The false era of Kaljug has come, behold its strange happenings.
Pir Saddardin clearly state that this era is Kaljug. Prince Sadruddin's statement can be for general public and not for Ismailis. But we Ismaili believes that this era is kaljug.
Thats interesting beacuse mulitiplying it with 360 we get 1728000, 1296000, 864000 and 432000 with the total of 4320000 years, which is exactly same as the calculation of jugs given by Pirs in Ginans.
ismaili103 wrote:
Then why Pir said in there Ginans that this era is Kaljug, Pir predicted about Kaljug by predicting about Planes, Phones, Diesel, etc
1. 0 brother believer! The false era of Kaljug has come, behold its strange happenings.
Pir Saddardin clearly state that this era is Kaljug. Prince Sadruddin's statement can be for general public and not for Ismailis. But we Ismaili believes that this era is kaljug.
When the Pir composed the Ginans around 1400-1500, it was still KaliYuga. The Dua Pur started around 1700 when the major scientific advances were made.
Which Ginan mentions planes, diesal, etc.
I know of a Ginan which mentions the scientific advances but not in kaljug.
As long as the planes are concern then yes it is quoted in our ginans
not exactly the word 'PLANE" but the word used the common words during pirs time.
'PAVAN PAVADI,
"PAVAN RATH "
The above both words refer about Air plane, doesn't it!!??
Pavan means Air!!
Rath: in old age peoples used to sit Not only this but there are many other current scientific words has been also used but in old language: just example!
"Attom Bomb" for this pirs has used the word
'VAYU NA GOLA" padshe and parbat udi udi jaye .
Pir has also used the name of the long distance measurement for planets
now a days its called as 'LIGHT YEARS" [/u][/b]as "PRAKASH VARS"
prakash means light varsh means years! KBhai with respect I do not want to involve in your debate again but the bottom line is this is Kaliyug. period.
There are many other religions also accept this yug as a Kali yug not only Ismaili pirs!!!!!
ismaili103 wrote:Pir Saddardin clearly state that this era is Kaljug. Prince Sadruddin's statement can be for general public and not for Ismailis. But we Ismaili believes that this era is kaljug.
So you are implying that the general public should have an optimistic outlook, whereas as the Jamat should consider themselves living in the dark ages!
agakhani wrote:[Not only this but there are many other current scientific words has been also used but in old language: just example!
"Attom Bomb" for this pirs has used the word
'VAYU NA GOLA" padshe and parbat udi udi jaye .
Pir has also used the name of the long distance measurement for planets
now a days its called as 'LIGHT YEARS" [/u][/b]as "PRAKASH VARS"
prakash means light varsh means years! KBhai with respect I do not want to involve in your debate again but the bottom line is this is Kaliyug. period.
How are all these related to Kaljug? Please quote the Ginans. You are free to disagree. I am not imposing my view on you.
When the Pir composed the Ginans around 1400-1500, it was still KaliYuga. The Dua Pur started around 1700 when the major scientific advances were made.
Then why in the same Ginan Pir said that in kaljug Murid will not follow True Guide, Son will beat Father, Daughter will fight with Mother, Wheat will sold etc.
Everything mentioned above is happening in todays era, then how its duapur jug.
Protitution, rapes, murder, terrorism, diseases, adultery, etc everything is happening in 21st century , then how its dwapur jug.
Yes Satya Jug will definitely come, but that too when Imam get ZAHOORAT and he will Kil Kalinga.
Which Ginan mentions planes, diesal, etc.
I forgot the Ginan, but it was like " URAN RAT GHORA" ( Flying Horse Cart).
About diesel, Pir said in Ginan that " HORSE MADE UP OFF IRON WILL RUN BY CONSUMING SUGAR". According to my interpretation Pir is talking about Car( Made up off iron and engine has HORSE POWER"). Now a days scientist made diesel and Tar from remaining of sugar cane, that why I interpret it as diesel.
ismaili103 wrote:Pir Saddardin clearly state that this era is Kaljug. Prince Sadruddin's statement can be for general public and not for Ismailis. But we Ismaili believes that this era is kaljug.
So you are implying that the general public should have an optimistic outlook, whereas as the Jamat should consider themselves living in the dark ages!
I mean its just a coincidence that Prince use the word hindu, he could said that "Ithnashari believe that its darkage before the arrival of Mehdi " or
"Christians believe that its Dark Age, until jesus ressurected ".
He just say that hindu believe its Kaljug and you assume it as Ismaili doesn't believe its Kaljug. Its like someone say that " Jews believe in Moses, thats why Muslim doesn't and shouldn't believe in Moses because mainstream Jews and Muslims are enemy of each other.
shivaathervedi wrote:
Each manvantara contains 71 Mahayugas, or aeons, of which a thousand form the kalpa. Each mahayuga is in turn divided into four yugas or ages, called Krita, Treta, Dvapara and Kali. Their lengths are respectively 4800, 3600, 2400 and 1200 "years of the gods," each of which equals 360 human years. Each yuga represents a progressive decline in piety, morality, strength, stature, longevity and happiness. We are at present in the Kali-yuga, which began, according to tradition, in 3102 BCE, believed to be the year of the Mahabharata War.
You are contradicting yourself. You said earlier that Sri Raam appeared around 5000 BC to 7000BC. The time farme of 3600 X 360 does not accord with that!
According to Swami Yuketshwars theory that I alluded to in my previous post, we are not in Kali Yuga but have advanced to the ascending Duapur Yuga.
"Creation is sacred. Life and nature need not be exploited to instill fear in our hearts. For the Hindus, we have entered the Kali Yuga, the dark age, while St. John's Apocalypse evokes the divine judgement for human sins through his vision of the final destruction of the earth. Though there is cause for apocalyptic rhetoric in the chemical and radioactive pollution of soil and water and the depletion of the ozone layer, the problem with cyclical or terminal Apocalypses is that they deeply imprint the mind with negative and destructive behaviour patterns. One is escapism: "God will judge, but we are the faithful who will escape. And really this isn't our home, anyway, since heaven is our kingdom". There is an "us/them" dilemma here, with a judgement on the others. What we need to do is formulate a language that draws people back into community and responsibility. Apocalyptic visions point the other way."
He is saying that the belief about today being Kali Yuga the dark age is a Hindu belief and not Ismaili. To think of our time as being a dark age can imprint negative and destructive patterns in our thinking. It is not healthy to think that way.
On the other hand if we think of being in Duapura Yuga ascending towards Satya Yuga, it engenders a positive and optimistic outlook.
The time frame 3600x360, I picked is from Hindu scriptures.
The time frame from 5000 to 7000 BC is my opinion based on excavations, archaeological and scientific surveys. I can be wrong.
The era that is currently used in the Indian calendar is the Vikram Samvat era which began in 57 BC when king Vikram drove off a Greek invasion pf the Malva region and came to throne.
ismaili103 wrote:Then why in the same Ginan Pir said that in kaljug Murid will not follow True Guide, Son will beat Father, Daughter will fight with Mother, Wheat will sold etc.
Everything mentioned above is happening in todays era, then how its duapur jug.
Protitution, rapes, murder, terrorism, diseases, adultery, etc everything is happening in 21st century , then how its dwapur jug.
Yes Satya Jug will definitely come, but that too when Imam get ZAHOORAT and he will Kil Kalinga..
Evil exists in all ages whether it be the Satya Yuga or the Kali Yuga. It is a matter of degree. That is the reason that we have had avatars in all eras. Also the eras reflect the mental capacities, not necessarily moral. There is an interesting article about the comparison of our times with the past at:
Is Humanity Getting Better?
The world now is a thoroughly awful place, compared with what it should be. But not compared with what it was.
I forgot the Ginan, but it was like " URAN RAT GHORA" ( Flying Horse Cart).
About diesel, Pir said in Ginan that " HORSE MADE UP OFF IRON WILL RUN BY CONSUMING SUGAR". According to my interpretation Pir is talking about Car( Made up off iron and engine has HORSE POWER"). Now a days scientist made diesel and Tar from remaining of sugar cane, that why I interpret it as diesel.
The question is what has that to do with Kali Yuga? Have you a reference that connects the two.
ismaili103 wrote:I mean its just a coincidence that Prince use the word hindu, he could said that "Ithnashari believe that its darkage before the arrival of Mehdi " or
"Christians believe that its Dark Age, until jesus ressurected "..
If you read the message he mentioned all apocalyptic visions that would also include the ones you have mentioned.
ismaili103 wrote:
He just say that hindu believe its Kaljug and you assume it as Ismaili doesn't believe its Kaljug. Its like someone say that " Jews believe in Moses, thats why Muslim doesn't and shouldn't believe in Moses because mainstream Jews and Muslims are enemy of each other.
To say that Jews believe in Moses is not accurate, it is a partial truth. Also Muslims believe in Moses regardless of whether they get along or not.
Also the belief in a prophethood cannot be equated to belief in a dark age.
Why would he himself indentify with the tradition that believes that the present age is of darkness about which he is critical?
The question is what has that to do with Kali Yuga? Have you a reference that connects the two.
It has nothing to do with kaljug but it has a connection because Pir predicted such events for Kaljug, and these events are happening today thats why its kaljug.
The guardians of the Three Lokas are called Devas (Sanskrit root 'Div' meaning the 'Shining One').
The derived term 'Deus' or 'Dios' from the same root, is still used to refer to God in modern European languages and even in the translations of the New Testament of Bible. Many people believe that Hindus worship 33 Crore Devtas but that is nothing but a myth, in Sanskrit the word KOTI refers to both 'crore' as well as 'type' and the use of the first meaning has led to the spread of this false belief. Vedas, the oldest Hindu texts enumerate 33 principle Devas who were the guardians of Nature and Cosmic Creation.
These are:
12 Adityas or Solar gods including Indra, Surya, Mitra and Varun
11 Rudras, the Manifestations of Lord Shiva
8 Vasus or Elemental gods such as Vayu, Agni, Antariksh and Dyaus, the Sky God
Prajapati Brahma
Shri Hari Vishnu
The ancients especially venerated the Adityas and Vedas are full of hymns dedicated to Indra, Agni, Surya, Varun and the like. The 12 Adityas correspond to the 12 Solar months and represent different attributes of social life. These are:
Ansh (due share),
Aryaman (nobility),
Bhaag (due inheritance),
Dhatri (ritual skill),
Tvashtar (skill in crafting),
Mitra (friendship),
Pushan/Ravi (prosperity),
Savitra/Parjanya (power of word),
Surya/Vivasvan (social law),
Varun (fate),
Vaman (cosmic law).
Indra/Shakra, of course is the eldest and the undoubted leader of other Adityas and has proved his worth on numerous occasions, most famous of his exploits being the slaying of the dragon Vritra.
The 8 Vasus are attendant deities of Indra and comprise of eight elemental gods that represent the different aspects of Nature. They include:
The 11 Rudras are three-eyed manifestations of the Original Rudra and include Lord Shiva, who, along with Prajapati Brahma and Shri Hari Vishnu forms a part of the highest echelons of the hierarchy amongst Gods known as the Trimurti . The respective roles of the Holy Hindu Trinity are:
Brahma, the First in this Trinity and is the Creator and Master of all Divine Ceremonies.
Shiva, the Cosmic Dancer, Nataraj who through his celestial dance, sustains the endless rhythm of the Universe.
Vishnu, the Preserver god who incarnates to help mankind face the challenges posed whenever Evil forces become too dominant in the Universe.
With time, other manifestations of the Supreme Lord appeared and were also incorporated in the group of Devas. Principal amongst these are Ganesh, the elephant-headed son of Lord Shiv and Shakti; and Hanuman, the monkey-god who is the 12th manifestation of Lord Shiva. Others include the twin sons of Surya - Ashwini Kumars and the ten incarnations of Lord Vishnu known as the Dashavatar.
Buddhist Cosmology expands the concept of the 33 Devas further and describes a separate Heaven for them called the Tavatimsa, on top of Mount Meru.
Hindu mythology gives an insight about the principles and thoughts valued by our ancients from the time when they had a common Belief-system. However, a Hindu, with sufficient insight into his religion, will not get swayed by these different manifestations and knows that all these gods are images representing the many facets of One Reality, the Supreme Brahman.
At its core, Hinduism has always believed in One Supreme God Who manifests Himself as many in order to Create, Preserve and ultimately Annihilate the Creation. This Supreme Brahman is beyond imagination, concepts and images and this attitude of inclusiveness provides the characteristic of tolerance to Hinduism.
ismaili103 wrote:It has nothing to do with kaljug but it has a connection because Pir predicted such events for Kaljug, and these events are happening today thats why its kaljug.
I am aware of the predictions, but am sceptical about them being specific to Kaljug. Ginans are meant for all ages and not only for Kaljug.
Many people believe that Hindus worship 33 Crore Devtas but that is nothing but a myth, in Sanskrit the word KOTI refers to both 'crore' as well as 'type' and the use of the first meaning has led to the spread of this false belief. Vedas, the oldest Hindu texts enumerate 33 principle Devas who were the guardians of Nature and Cosmic Creation.
We Ismailis believe in the 33 crores of liberated spirits as mentioned in the verses below:
ejee dil deeyaa tenne sab kuchh deeyaa, ahonis jaago maaraa vir
karodd tetreesasu(n) jai meelo, em boleeyaa shamsh peer.....10
The one who has given his/her heart has indeed given everything.
My brothers remain awake (in knowledge and remembrance) day and night.
Then you will go and meet the thirty three crores of the liberated ones.
This has been said by Peer Shamsh
ejee aavaa pa(n)j bhu vas karee,
chaare jug ni kalaa gur nee joelaa;
karoddee tetrees devataa naa melaa maa(n)he hoelaa...tam su(n)....3
By thus subduing the five passions, the Guide's marvellous power that endures through the four ages is seen, and one enters the company of the thirty-three crores of deities.
Many people believe that Hindus worship 33 Crore Devtas but that is nothing but a myth, in Sanskrit the word KOTI refers to both 'crore' as well as 'type' and the use of the first meaning has led to the spread of this false belief. Vedas, the oldest Hindu texts enumerate 33 principle Devas who were the guardians of Nature and Cosmic Creation.
We Ismailis believe in the 33 crores of liberated spirits as mentioned in the verses below:
ejee dil deeyaa tenne sab kuchh deeyaa, ahonis jaago maaraa vir
karodd tetreesasu(n) jai meelo, em boleeyaa shamsh peer.....10
The one who has given his/her heart has indeed given everything.
My brothers remain awake (in knowledge and remembrance) day and night.
Then you will go and meet the thirty three crores of the liberated ones.
This has been said by Peer Shamsh
ejee aavaa pa(n)j bhu vas karee,
chaare jug ni kalaa gur nee joelaa;
karoddee tetrees devataa naa melaa maa(n)he hoelaa...tam su(n)....3
By thus subduing the five passions, the Guide's marvellous power that endures through the four ages is seen, and one enters the company of the thirty-three crores of deities.
Have you come across any mention of 33 Devas in Ginans? I haven't and would be interested to know if there is one.
I have quoted Hindu text regarding 33 principle Devas, but you have mentioned 33 crore liberated souls. Regarding your inquiry of 33 Devas in satpanthi literature, let me ask this question to a my khoja colleague and will get back to you.
The act of creation was thought of in more than one manner. One of the oldest cosmogonic myth in the Rigveda (RV 10.121) had being come into existence as a cosmic egg, hiranyagarbha (a golden egg). The Purusha Sukta (RV 10.90) narrates that all things were made out of the mangled limbs of Purusha, a magnified non-natural man, who was sacrificed by the gods. In the Puranas, Vishnu, in the shape of a boar, plunged into the cosmic waters and brought forth the earth (Bhumi or Prithivi).
The Shatapatha Brahmana says that in the beginning, Prajapati, the first creator or father of all, was alone in the world. He differentiated himself into two beings, husband and wife. The wife, regarding union with her producer as incest, fled from his embraces assuming various animal disguises. The husband pursued in the form of the male of each animal, and from these unions sprang the various species of beasts (Shatapatha Brahmana, xiv. 4, 2). Prajapati was soon replaced with Brahma in the Puranas.
In the Puranas, Brahma the creator was joined in a divine triad with Vishnu and Maheshvara (Shiva), who were the preserver and destroyer, respectively. The universe was created by Brahma, preserved by Vishnu, and destroyed for the next creation by Shiva. However, the birth of Brahma was attributed to Vishnu in some myths. Brahma was often depicted as sitting on a lotus arising from the navel of Vishnu, who was resting on the cosmic serpent, Ananta (Shesha). In the very beginning Vishnu alone was there. When Vishnu thought about creation, Brahma was created from a lotus that came from his navel.
VISHNU
Vishnu is known as the preserver aspect of Brahmin. In his four hand he carries at all times, a lotus, a conch shell, a club, and a discus.
Vishnu rose from a minor role as a solar deity in the Rigveda to one of the Hindu Triad with Brahma and Shiva to the Absolute of the universe in Vaishnavism. Vishnu's willingness to incarnate in time of need to restore righteousness (dharma) was the inspiring theme that made him both absolute and a compassionate giver of grace (prasada). According to the Puranas, he sleeps in the primeval ocean, on the thousand-headed snake Shesha. In his sleep a lotus grows from his navel, and in the lotus is born the demiurge Brahma, who creates the world. Once the world is created Vishnu awakes, to reign in the highest heaven, Vaikuntha. As the protector of life, one of the duties of Vishnu is to appear on the earth whenever a firm hand is required to set things right. The Avataras or incarnations of Vishnu are, according to the most popular classification, ten. They are as follows: The Fish (Matsya), The Tortoise (Kurma), the Boar (Varaha), the Man-Lion (Narasimha), the Dwarf (Vamana), Parashurama, Rama, Krishna, Buddha and Kalki.
SHIVA
Shiva is considered the supreme deity, the ultimate source and goal by the Saivite sect. The Pashupata, Shaiva Siddhanta and some other sects view Shiva as equal to, or even greater than the Absolute (Brahman). Shiva's character is 'ambivalent,' as he can be a moral and paternal god, or a god of outsiders, of those outside the Brahmanical mainstream, worshipped in various ways. Several Tantric cults are also associated with Shiva.
In classical Hinduism Shiva is the god of destruction, generally portrayed as a yogin who lives on Mount Kailasa in the Himalayas. His body is smeared with ashes, his hair piled up in matted locks. He wears an animal skin and carries a trident. A cobra often serves as his garland and the crescent moon as his hair ornament. He has a third eye, kept closed in the middle of his forehead. He may be surrounded by his beautiful wife Parvati, and their two sons, the six-faced Skanda and the elephant-headed Ganesha.
The ancient name of Shiva is Rudra, the Wild God. The Rig-Veda (10.61 & 1.71) tells that when time was about to begin he appeared as a wild hunter, aflame, his arrow directed against the Creator (Prajapati) making love with his virgin daughter, the Dawn (Usas). The Creator, terribly frightened, made Rudra Lord of Animals (Pasupati) for sparing his life.
A key theme that first appears in later Vedic literature is the god's rather ambiguous relation to the sacrificial oblations and offerings. Originally Rudra-Shiva seems to have been at least partly excluded from orthodox Vedic sacrifices and thus has to demand his share of the offerings, sometimes described as the share that is 'left-over' (ucchista). In the classical mythology of Hinduism, this theme is incorporated into Shiva's conflict with his first father-in-law, the Brahmin named Daksha, who did not invite Shiva to a sacrifice organized by him and an enraged Sati(Daksha's daughter) goes to reproach her father for the same. However Daksha insults Shiva and Sati enraged by this says that she, being born of a being as lowly as Daksha does not deserve to be Shiva's consort and immolates herself. Shiva, furious in the loss of his love, beheads Daksha and then replaces it with that of a goat, the sacrificial animal.
Many of the main episodes in the Shiva myth cycle revolve around the dynamic tension between Shiva as the god equally of asceticism and eroticism, a master of both yogic restraint and sexual prowess.
Shiva destroys Kama, the god of erotic love, with the fire from his third eye when Kama attempts to disturb his ascetic trance. Subsequently Parvati, daughter of the Himalaya, wins Shiva's love through her own ascetic penance and persuades him to revive Kama in disembodied form.
By chopping off the fifth head of Brahma, Shiva is charged with the major sin of the murder of a brahman and must undertake the penance, or the Great Vow (mahavrata), of the Skull-Bearer (kapalin), an ascetic who wanders about with a skull as a begging bowl. This Great Vow becomes the archetypical basis of the ascetic sect of the Kapalikas or Mahavratins, who are equally noted for their indulgence in the orgiastic rites of Tantric character. The complicated myth of the birth of the six-faced Skanda, a son of Shiva, exists in a number of very different versions. In part, Skanda is the son of Shiva and Parvati, but he is at the same time the son of Agni and of the six Krittikas. His role is to destroy the terrible demon Taraka.
The three sons of Taraka later establish the mighty triple city of the demons, which Shiva eventually destroys with a single arrow from his bow, Pinaka. Another demon named Andhaka, the blind son of Shiva and/or of the demon Hiranyaksha, lusts after Parvati but is defeated and reformed by Shiva. Shiva beheads his Ganesha, whom he has never met, when Ganesha tries to prevent the apparent stranger from entering the room of Parvati, Shiva's wife and Ganesha's mother. Shiva then replaces his son's head with that of an elephant just as he once replaced Daksha's head with that of a goat. Later in a battle Ganesha loses one of his tusk (a more popular alternative myth describes how Ganesha broke off one of his tusks to transcribe the Mahabharata as dictated by Ved Vyasa).
shivaathervedi wrote:
I have quoted Hindu text regarding 33 principle Devas, but you have mentioned 33 crore liberated souls. Regarding your inquiry of 33 Devas in satpanthi literature, let me ask this question to a my khoja colleague and will get back to you.
You said that 33 crore devtas was a myth, whereas I am saying that in Ismailism it is a reality. They are always present in JK and with enlightened souls.
ejee bhrahmaa veeshnav maheshar bhanneeye
kal maa(n)he veeshnu(n) Imaam
je jeev farmaane chaalyaa
so pahotaa bahesht makaan..............illaahee.............16
Know the Creator, Ruler and the Destroyer(of evil). In the present age Lord Vishnu is the Imaam. Those souls that have followed the Farmaans, have reached the abode of paradise.
shivaathervedi wrote:
I have quoted Hindu text regarding 33 principle Devas, but you have mentioned 33 crore liberated souls. Regarding your inquiry of 33 Devas in satpanthi literature, let me ask this question to a my khoja colleague and will get back to you.
You said that 33 crore devtas was a myth, whereas I am saying that in Ismailism it is a reality. They are always present in JK and with enlightened souls.
My khoja friend has given following couplet of pir Sadrdin;
YARA GHAR RIKHIYAN JE WADHAYU(N)
JUUG MERO JIO MERO TTETTIHAN SA(N)
In above couplet the word used is ttettiha means 33 (Sindhi word is used).
There is no mention of 33 crores.
Ya Ali Madad.
The word mythology meant myths which is MOSTY imagination and speculation and not reality.does our holy book affirms to 33 gods or One God.does the farman of any Imam says about 33 God?
George Bernard Shaw.wrote ' WISDOM IS NOT RECOLLECTIONS OF THE PAST BUT RESPONSIBILITY OF THE FUTURE.
There are yes 313 souls spread across all religions who understand the Baatin of Imam,Creation and holy books.
How come a member posting as vedic copy pasted also get reference of a ginan extract.
This web site has lost admission of quality Ismailis since last year.just 10 new members
Joined recently will go down in history to bring an end to this website.
Moment serpent enters the garden,wise do not wish to enter there.
Admin must analyze good growth of members till last year and just few popularly linked members joining forum.
SOME IS WRONG SOMEWHERE.
George Bernard Shaw.wrote ' WISDOM IS NOT RECOLLECTIONS OF THE PAST BUT RESPONSIBILITY OF THE FUTURE.
MHI said at the opening of the Ismaili Centre Toronto:
"As we inaugurate this building, we also have the opportunity to contemplate what it represents: the inspiring traditions of the past, the stirring challenges of the future, and the continuing search for peace through prayer." http://www.theismaili.org/ismailicentre ... ny-toronto
Whom should we listen to? George Bernard Shaw or the Imam?
shivaathervedi wrote:
My khoja friend has given following couplet of pir Sadrdin;
YARA GHAR RIKHIYAN JE WADHAYU(N)
JUUG MERO JIO MERO TTETTIHAN SA(N)
In above couplet the word used is ttettiha means 33 (Sindhi word is used).
There is no mention of 33 crores.
Thanks for pointing that out.
The translation of the above verse would be:
yaaraa ghar rikhian je vadhaaiyu(n)
jug meddo jio meddo tetrian saann.................................2
O friend! The homes of the momins are filled with felicitations and happiness, because they have joined the ranks of the thirty three (crores of the saved ones).
The verse talks about a meddo which means a gathering or a company. In our tradition this company or gathering is usually that of the 33 crores saved ones. That is the state of spiritual enlightenment.
You stated in your post:
"the oldest Hindu texts enumerate 33 principle Devas who were the guardians of Nature and Cosmic Creation."
We cannot talk meaningfully about a gathering with 33 devas (which are not mentioned in the Ginan).
shivaathervedi wrote:
My khoja friend has given following couplet of pir Sadrdin;
YARA GHAR RIKHIYAN JE WADHAYU(N)
JUUG MERO JIO MERO TTETTIHAN SA(N)
In above couplet the word used is ttettiha means 33 (Sindhi word is used).
There is no mention of 33 crores.
Thanks for pointing that out.
The translation of the above verse would be:
yaaraa ghar rikhian je vadhaaiyu(n)
jug meddo jio meddo tetrian saann.................................2
O friend! The homes of the momins are filled with felicitations and happiness, because they have joined the ranks of the thirty three (crores of the saved ones).
The verse talks about a meddo which means a gathering or a company. In our tradition this company or gathering is usually that of the 33 crores saved ones. That is the state of spiritual enlightenment.
You stated in your post:
"the oldest Hindu texts enumerate 33 principle Devas who were the guardians of Nature and Cosmic Creation."
We cannot talk meaningfully about a gathering with 33 devas (which are not mentioned in the Ginan).
Interesting, I have asked my khoja colleague to provide me with khoja satpanthi literature and ginans so that I can find similarity in both. In coming weeks we shall be discussing on this subject.
To:kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad
I would try to understand the reasoning of what Shaw said and give utmost value and respect to speeches of HH the Agakhan made to wider audience.I may not be obliged to follow the content of both but I would ABSOLUTELY FOLLOW the farmans of Moulana Hazar Imam.
I will expand both in next posting to my stand on it later.
SPEECHES KO PURA MAAN DO
FARMAN PE IMAAN NICHAVAR KAR DO.
nuseri wrote:
SPEECHES KO PURA MAAN DO
FARMAN PE IMAAN NICHAVAR KAR DO.
If you want to consider Farmans, then they are more emphatic about the message of maintaining the traditions:
"I feel that unless we are able to continue this wonderful tradition . . . we will lose some of our past which is most important to us and must be kept throughout our lives." Dacca, 17.10.1960
"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964
The prayer hall Ismaili Centre Toronto is used by Ismailis hence the meesage of the Imam was for his murids.
shivaathervedi wrote:
Interesting, I have asked my khoja colleague to provide me with khoja satpanthi literature and ginans so that I can find similarity in both. In coming weeks we shall be discussing on this subject.
The Creation of the Cosmic Ocean and the Elements, folio from the Shiva Purana, c. 1828.
Hinduism defines fourteen worlds, seven higher worlds (heavens) and seven lower ones (underworlds). (The earth is considered the lowest of the seven higher worlds.) The higher worlds are the seven vyahrtis, viz. bhu(meaning Land/Earth), bhuvas(meaning Air/atmosphere),svar(meaning the Sun, Heaven, World of Gods, The sky, The region of the planets and constellations,Radiance), mahas, janas, tapas, and satya (the world that is ruled by Brahma); and the lower ones (the "seven underworlds" or paatalas) are atala, vitala, sutala, rasaataala, talatala, mahaatala, paatala.
All the worlds except the earth are used as temporary places of stay as follows: upon one's death on earth, the god of death (officially called 'Yama Dharma Raajaa' – Yama, the lord of justice) tallies the person's good/bad deeds while on earth and decides if the soul goes to a heaven and/or a hell, for how long, and in what capacity. Some versions of the religion state that good and bad deeds neutralize each other and the soul therefore is born in either a heaven or a hell, but not both, whereas according to another school of thought, the good and bad deeds don't cancel out each other. In either case, the soul acquires a body as appropriate to the worlds it enters. At the end of the soul's time in those worlds, it returns to the earth (is reborn as a life form on the earth). It is considered that only from the earth, and only after a human life, can the soul reach supreme salvation, the state free from the cycle of birth and death, a state of absolute and eternal bliss.
Higher Lokas - Lower Lokas
Satyaloka Atal
Tapoloka Vital
Janloka Sutal
Maharloka Rasatal
Swargaloka Talatal
Bhuvarloka Mahatal
Bhuloka Pataal
To kmaherali:Ya Ali madad.
My MHI uses the word inspiring it mean other than 99% uninspiring and unwarranted.for example flowers with beautiful fragnance are just dozens out of hundred of species.
When MHI tell to understand it is nor.
Memorization,or whole sale copy pasting,he many a times has SPECIFICALLY has told toundertand not just the surface word but essence of those Ginan.
It was year 1964 when most junk and unwanted data was filtered out.
To the outsiders he may replaced the words Sufi Tariqa to Inspiring traditions.
If you are a mature doing post graduate course and the dean gives to two words to graduate would still harping around with few lac words written 700 years back of high school stuff.you have understood that and done with.
In a post made recently on general hidayat.
MHI has asked attendees to find a solution.
A real and immense responsibility for the future for Khidmatgars and did not say to ponder upon what was said or written 700 years back.
If survey is done many educated drifting from JK attendance may also find Khoja traditions not aligning with reality of today and farmans and speeches made by Mhi in English.
This extract from mulaqat reminds me what George Shaw said Wisdom is not recollections of the past but responsibility for the future.