Where is the English guidance?

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:04 pm

they can turn to that black stone for their prayers when they are on other planets.

Dear admin brother
If you think Muslims are turning to what you call black stone you are showing ignorance. It is useless to explain to you.

As far as going to planets and praying, will cross that bridge when time comes. There are enough problems on this planet.

Salam brother

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:14 pm

They will not go to other planets because there is no way they can turn to that black stone for their prayers when they are on other planets.

Question: How a person would find Qibla direction from another planet or from space?
Answer:
From moonsighting.com
From another planet or in space, one would face a line in space that goes exactly above Ka'bah (This line is the one that connects Ka'bah to Bait-ul-Ma'moor in the heavens). By 3-D trigonometry, it can be calculated from any point in space, how to face such a line. Even on earth we face the same line, not the ka'bah itself.

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:34 pm

zznoor wrote:
They will not go to other planets because there is no way they can turn to that black stone for their prayers when they are on other planets.
Question: How a person would find Qibla direction from another planet or from space?
Answer:
From moonsighting.com
From another planet or in space, one would face a line in space that goes exactly above Ka'bah (This line is the one that connects Ka'bah to Bait-ul-Ma'moor in the heavens). By 3-D trigonometry, it can be calculated from any point in space, how to face such a line. Even on earth we face the same line, not the ka'bah itself.

I am gonna have my long giggle

There's an app for that, don't you know? lol

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:36 pm

Noor said :

Question: How a person would find Qibla direction from another planet or from space?
Answer:
From moonsighting.com
From another planet or in space, one would face a line in space that goes exactly above Ka'bah (This line is the one that connects Ka'bah to Bait-ul-Ma'moor in the heavens). By 3-D trigonometry, it can be calculated from any point in space, how to face such a line. Even on earth we face the same line, not the ka'bah itself.

Just a quick question !!!

When you are ready to accept that in near future mankind will travel from one planet to another why are you not willing to accept that just like a human body even our soul elevates from one station to another ???

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:46 pm

Correction !!...I meant to say Human mind to be precise

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:48 pm

I am gonna have my long giggle
There's an app for that, don't you know? lol

Yep when time comes and need arises, there will be app, Inshah Allah

Just like app on my IPhone app *ipray*, Subhan Allah

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:52 pm

"One of the important values of the Shia Ismaili tradition is the transformative power of the human intellect."

Aga Khan

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:00 pm

zznoor wrote:
I am gonna have my long giggle
There's an app for that, don't you know? lol
Yep when time comes and need arises, there will be app, Inshah Allah

Just like app on my IPhone app *ipray*, Subhan Allah

You see that's what sits us apart. You depend on your little app to remind you when to pray. I want to live Allah all the time and don't need any reminder, and i don't certainly need any app to show me which direction i pray to remember Subhana tahala.

Listener · Post by **Listener** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:15 pm

This is taken from Wikipedia and is pretty simple to understand, at least I hope so—I wrote it. That being said, Ismailis should point out to me any inconsistencies with doctrine, that is to say if any part is wrong.

"With respect to their spiritual nature, the Imams are considered to be incarnations of the divine word as well as conduits between God and his people. For that reason, the Imams have the authority to abrogate the Sharia according to divine injunction and institute new rituals or customs. This particular measure of authority relates to the Nizari Ismaili belief in the binary nature of Islam as having both outer and inner aspects, commonly called Batin and Zahir. The doctrine of Imamah maintains that the outward form of the religion evolves over time but the inner essence eternally remains the same, making it the truest form of the religion. It is this inner essence that supersedes the outer or rather formal religious culture consisting of rituals and customs."

So, to the brother who is causing division within the Ummah please read this and if you don't accept the Ismaili madhhab then keep quite, for your sake.

[30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:40 am

zznoor wrote:
I am gonna have my long giggle
There's an app for that, don't you know? lol
Yep when time comes and need arises, there will be app, Inshah Allah

Just like app on my IPhone app *ipray*, Subhan Allah

Here we go again zznoor - maybe we need a permanent shoe on head app for you.

So using your source- how do you explain this....

"To Allah belong the east and the west: Whither-soever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing."
Surah Baqarah, verse 115
(2:115).

So what do you follow? is Allah now confined to the Kaaba? then is He bound to the benevolence of the Saudis (your masters)?

Hm..something to think about...

Shams

Post by **Admin** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:33 am

Yah same question again. Where did the Muslim turn when the Kaba was removed from Mecca by the Qarmatis.

And were would they turn if the black stone one day disappear again from Mecca?

This is a copy paste from the internet, verify for yourself the info if you do not believe

"There are conflicting stories about the reason why the Stone is in pieces. Some sources suggest that the damage occurred as the result of a theft in 930 C.E, when Qarmatian warriors sacked Mecca and carried the Black Stone away to their base in Bahrain. "

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:05 am

Admin wrote:Yah same question again. Where did the Muslim turn when the Kaba was removed from Mecca by the Qarmatis.

Towards Kaaba,the physical structure

And were would they turn if the black stone one day disappear again from Mecca?

Still towards Kaaba
Coordinates 21.4225° N, 39.8262° E in Saudi Arabia

I read story on this site that some ignorant Ismaili caretaker pointed out that Kaaba was at the feet of MHI. If it was true then Alas, MHI the progeny of Muhammad, the Bolta Quran should have corrected him and taught the truth.

Admin, please google "Why Muslim face towards Kabba" and read some answer. I am sure it will help so called plurality.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:22 am

zznoor wrote:
Admin wrote:Yah same question again. Where did the Muslim turn when the Kaba was removed from Mecca by the Qarmatis.

Towards Kaaba,the physical structure

And were would they turn if the black stone one day disappear again from Mecca?

Still towards Kaaba
Coordinates 21.4225° N, 39.8262° E in Saudi Arabia

I read story on this site that some ignorant Ismaili caretaker pointed out that Kaaba was at the feet of MHI. If it was true then Alas, MHI the progeny of Muhammad, the Bolta Quran should have corrected him and taught the truth.

Admin, please google "Why Muslim face towards Kabba" and read some answer. I am sure it will help so called plurality.

مقصود من از کعبه و بتخانه تو ای تو
مقصود تو ای کعبه و بتخانه بهانه

Translation
The purpose of kabah and bohtkhana (place where idols are worshiped) is only you
You are the purpose and kabah and bohtkhana are just a lame excuse.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:59 am

The purpose of kabah and bohtkhana (place where idols are worshiped) is only you
You are the purpose and kabah and bohtkhana are just a lame excuse.

How ignorant
Towards religion of forefathers of your Noor Allah
You have not learned anything from Plurality message of MHI

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:26 am

ShamsB wrote:
zznoor wrote:
I am gonna have my long giggle
There's an app for that, don't you know? lol
Yep when time comes and need arises, there will be app, Inshah Allah

Just like app on my IPhone app *ipray*, Subhan Allah
Here we go again zznoor - maybe we need a permanent shoe on head app for you.

So using your source- how do you explain this....

"To Allah belong the east and the west: Whither-soever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing."
Surah Baqarah, verse 115
(2:115).

So what do you follow? is Allah now confined to the Kaaba? then is He bound to the benevolence of the Saudis (your masters)?

Hm..something to think about...

Shams

[Shakir 2:115] And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's purpose; surely Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:115]
Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Wajh means face - the manifesting aspect (side) of a thing. Imam Ali ibna Abi Talib says:

Beyond this moon are many moons, beyond the sun are many suns".(Bihar ul Anwar).

The east and the west mentioned here should not be confined to the directions we know in relation to the rising and setting of the sun. It also refers to the whole cosmos where there are several moons and suns, therefore, the hold of the omnipotence of Allah, the absolute, controls and directs (manifest) in all the easts and the wests of the universe. He is the all-pervading omniscient who is in everything and everything is in Him. His manifestation (wajh) serves the purpose of man. In whichever direction the mind turns there is His manifestation. (Araf: 137, Shu-ara: 28, Saffat: 5, Zukhruf: 38, Rahman: 17). The interpretation of wajh, as Allah's purpose, by the Ahmadi commentator, is a linguistic misappropriation to effect a motivated confusion.

The verb sharaqa means to beam or radiate with light. It may be physical or spiritual (Zumar: 69). The place or the direction from which the light beams is mashriq (the east), and the place or direction in which the light disappears is maghrib (the west). The terms mashriq and maghrib should be taken in a wider and more comprehensive sense to include all the lights, physical and spiritual, coming from the absolute to enlighten the various spheres of existence in the universe. In this sense Allah is the wasi-un alim.

The first creation in which the unity of the absolute is manifested is known as mashriqul wujud, and the matter in which the unity disappears and gives its place to multiplicity is known as maghribul wujud. On the other hand, as regards to the multiplicity of manifestation the matter can be taken as the mashriq of the multiplicity and the absolute as its maghrib wherein the multiplicity disappears. These are some examples of the various usages of the terms mashriq and maghrib in their singular, plural and dual forms. The particular incident of the revelation of this verse relating to the direction of qiblah (noted below) does not affect the universality which this verse signifies.

"This verse was revealed when the companions, who were sent to fight a battle, camped outside Madina. It was a dark night. The sky was full of clouds. The direction of qiblah could not be correctly ascertained, so they prayed the isha salat after making approximation, which was proved to be wrong in the morning. In Madina, they informed the Holy Prophet of that which had happened and, mindful of their mistake, prayed the said salat again. This verse was then revealed to console those faithful devotees."

(Tafsir Kabir).

Tawalla (to turn) means, in this verse, that in whichever direction the Muslims turn they will win victory, or whichever direction the infidels choose to flee, they will encounter the might of Allah.

From Tafheem ul Quran, Maudidi
God is neither eastern nor western. East and west, north and south, and indeed all places and directions are His, though He is not confined to any particular place or direction.

It was Allah SWT's command to Prophet to turn in the direction of Kaaba

Post by **Admin** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:07 am

So the physical structure of the Kaba is more important then the black stone? That is what you are suggesting. That would mean there is no need of the black stone, Muslim should face the "physical structure" whatever you mean by it? That is interesting, it means at least you are honoring the place of birth of our Imam...

By the way, pluralism means accept that in this world there is a variety of interpretations and opinions and ways of seeing things. It does not mean believing in what you believe. It just means you have the right to think the way you think and that does not stop anyone else also to bring to the table his own interpretation.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:11 am

Admin wrote:So the physical structure of the Kaba is more important then the black stone? That is what you are suggesting. That would mean there is no need of the black stone, Muslim should face the "physical structure" whatever you mean by it? That is interesting, it means at least you are honoring the place of birth of our Imam...

Wiki has very good explaination of signification of Hajr e Aswad. Do your own reading

it means at least you are honoring the place of birth of our Imam...

I am pleased at least one Ali worshipper is happy

BTW
At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the
‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims
worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

By the way, pluralism means accept that in this world there is a variety of interpretations and opinions and ways of seeing things. It does not mean believing in what you believe. It just means you have the right to think the way you think and that does not stop anyone else also to bring to the table his own interpretation.

It cuts both way.
Muslims should understand why Prophet and Ummah were directed to turn towards Kaaba and those who deviate should not make fun of fundamental teachings of Islam which is Shahada, salat, swam, Zakat and hajj if one can afford it. That is also plurality.
And that does not preclude respectful debate.

Now please allow time to brother who posted inquiries .

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:25 am

zznoor wrote:
The purpose of kabah and bohtkhana (place where idols are worshiped) is only you
You are the purpose and kabah and bohtkhana are just a lame excuse.
How ignorant
Towards religion of forefathers of your Noor Allah
You have not learned anything from Plurality message of MHI

I really don't know what's the relation between pluralism and what I wrote? And I don't understand either how it shows my ignorance towards my forefathers religion?

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:26 am

zznoor wrote:
The purpose of kabah and bohtkhana (place where idols are worshiped) is only you
You are the purpose and kabah and bohtkhana are just a lame excuse.
How ignorant
Towards religion of forefathers of your Noor Allah
You have not learned anything from Plurality message of MHI

I really don't know what's the relation between pluralism and what I wrote? And I don't understand either how it shows my ignorance towards my forefathers religion?

I am happy for you that you found God in that exact coordinate. I really am!

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:35 am

zznoor wrote: BTW
At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the
‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims
worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

At the time of Prophet people used to do a lot of things, like riding camel as transport means, using maswak as tooth brush, and many many other things. Today, if you ride a camel to get to work, I really doubt it would be acceptable, would it? or would you still use maswak to clean your teeth, or you would use tooth brush or tooth paste, provided that you clean you teeth, of course. But, I still do see some mainstream orthodox muslims brothers who carries a dry stick in his pocket, just because it is considered as 'sunnat'. There was a purpose why the Prophet used maswak, and it was to keep the teeth clean.

Things evolve and we must too.

Now, let me ask you a simple question, it's a rhetorical question and the respond can tell alot about your faith towards Islam, God and the Prophet. Think carefully before answering it.

Let's say that Prophet Mohammad was present today, and if he would say something would you follow it? even if that means something against shariat?

If yes, tell me why?
if no, tell me why?

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:36 pm

zznoor said :

How ignorant
Towards religion of forefathers of your Noor Allah
You have not learned anything from Plurality message of MHI

Your comments a laughable zznoor, on one hand you are bashing ismailis and their way of thinking and on the other hand you talk about pluralism.

When ismailis are advancing both spiritually and materially one should sit back and learn instead of hating and stuff.

Nobody is forcing you to believe or follow the customs of shia imami ismaili tariqah as there is no compulsion in our religion...You are an ex ismaili and its very hard for you to digest the fact that black stone is worshipped as something holy when people go to perform hajj.

They kiss that stone, rub their face...say prayers and what not...If the mainstream muslims do it, then thats sunnah but if ismailis kiss the photo of their imams its shirkh...Do I have to say more ???

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:10 pm

zznoor wrote:At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the ‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

I think the allegation is "what non-imami" muslims do now rather than what muslims did at the time of the Prophet.

What you posted is an admission that during the time of the Prophet, his followers were not worshipping Kaaba.

Now many muslims who do not follow imam of the Time are astray and worship Kaaba, go to "Aalim" for protections, do grave worshipping etc

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:35 am

Do you know that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) also kissed and worshiped that so called stone Hazar e aswad? you do not need proof go and read Sirat books of Prophet of any author, so( ZZNoor) please do not ask me proof!!! and you already wrote that you have many sirat books of Prophet Mohd.

While we Ismaili only kisses photo's of our Imam to gives respect to him because he is our 'RUHANI RAHBAR' 'HOLDER OF ALLAH'S NOOR ' and our IMAM, period.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:42 pm

agakhani wrote:Do you know that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) also kissed and worshiped that so called stone Hazar e aswad? you do not need proof go and read Sirat books of Prophet of any author, so( ZZNoor) please do not ask me proof!!! and you already wrote that you have many sirat books of Prophet Mohd.

While we Ismaili only kisses photo's of our Imam to gives respect to him because he is our 'RUHANI RAHBAR' 'HOLDER OF ALLAH'S NOOR ' and our IMAM, period.

Br Agakhini, ASAK

To say that Prophet of Islam worshipped a historical stone would be a insult to his lifetime mission of eradication of Idolatory in Arabia.
I am not disputing that he kissed it since there is:
A hadith records that, when the second Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab (580-644) came to kiss the Stone, he said in front of all assembled:
"No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."

However, in the hadith collection Kanz al-Ummal by Ali ibn Abd-al-Malik al-Hindi, it is recorded that

Ali responded to Umar, saying,

"This stone (Hajar Aswad) can indeed benefit and harm.... Allah (swt) says in Quran that he created human beings from the progeny of Adam (as) and made them witness over themselves and asked them, 'Am I not your creator?' Upon this, all of them confirmed it. Thus Allah wrote this confirmation. And this stone has a pair of eyes, ears and a tongue and it opened its mouth upon the order of Allah (swt), who put that confirmation in it and ordered to witness it to all those worshippers who come for Hajj."

Only Allah knows the truth

My only humble request to my Ismaili brotherns is please do not say that knowledgable Muslim worships Kaaba and black stone.
Kaaba was first Masjid built by Hz Ibrahim and Black stone was part of that structure. Kaaba is direction of our Salat as ordered in Quran.

I have no problem with anybody's belief.

Salam (peace )

Btw my post few hours ago was deleted. Hope this one survives.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:55 am

zznoor wrote: My only humble request to my Ismaili brotherns is please do not say that knowledgable Muslim worships Kaaba and black stone.
Kaaba was first Masjid built by Hz Ibrahim and Black stone was part of that structure. Kaaba is direction of our Salat as ordered in Quran.

I have no problem with anybody's belief.

I don't think we have any issue with others' belief either. As you by now know very well that pluralism is one topic that MHI emphasizes, and we as ismailies follow it. Live, and let it live.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:27 am

tret wrote:
zznoor wrote: My only humble request to my Ismaili brotherns is please do not say that knowledgable Muslim worships Kaaba and black stone.
Kaaba was first Masjid built by Hz Ibrahim and Black stone was part of that structure. Kaaba is direction of our Salat as ordered in Quran.

I have no problem with anybody's belief.
I don't think we have any issue with others' belief either. As you by now know very well that pluralism is one topic that MHI emphasizes, and we as ismailies follow it. Live, and let it live.

You cannot say that about others
Example

a_27826
Now many muslims who
do not follow imam of the Time are astray and worship Kaaba, go to "Aalim" for protections, do grave worshipping etc

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:49 am

zznoor wrote:
tret wrote:
zznoor wrote: My only humble request to my Ismaili brotherns is please do not say that knowledgable Muslim worships Kaaba and black stone.
Kaaba was first Masjid built by Hz Ibrahim and Black stone was part of that structure. Kaaba is direction of our Salat as ordered in Quran.

I have no problem with anybody's belief.
I don't think we have any issue with others' belief either. As you by now know very well that pluralism is one topic that MHI emphasizes, and we as ismailies follow it. Live, and let it live.
You cannot say that about others
Example
a_27826
Now many muslims who
do not follow imam of the Time are astray and worship Kaaba, go to "Aalim" for protections, do grave worshipping etc

We can not change the world, without changing ourselves first. Does he [a_27826] come to any sunnie/shia site and preach what he has to say? If you take his statement out of context, it wouldn't have the same implication.

So, let's start by ourselves. Live and let live.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:39 am

My only humble request to my Ismaili brotherns is please do not say that knowledgable Muslim worships Kaaba and black stone.
Kaaba was first Masjid built by Hz Ibrahim and Black stone was part of that structure. Kaaba is direction of our Salat as ordered in Quran.

KYO MIRCHI LAG JATI HAI NA!!?/

When some one tells you the truth "aapko mirchi lag jati hai",
As per your above comments its force me to believe that ' UN KNOWLEDGABLE/ ILLITERATE MUSLIMS DOES WORSHIPS KAABA AND BLACK STONE" am I right? if yes DOESN'T IT SHIRK???
Sister,
By the way you are right, I should have clear that Prophet Mohammed didn't worshiped the Black stone as others idols worshipers doing right now like Hindus. nor he worshiped black stone same like 'LAT" & MUNAT IDOLS were worshiped by peoples of that time, they considered them as a God which is Shirk in Islam
Thanks to bring this mistake in my knowledge.
They considers idols as a 'GOD' Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) worshiped it in respect because H. Ibrahim (pbuh) used to sit on that and performing Namaz.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:37 pm

agakhani wrote:
My only humble request to my Ismaili brotherns is please do not say that knowledgable Muslim worships Kaaba and black stone.
Kaaba was first Masjid built by Hz Ibrahim and Black stone was part of that structure. Kaaba is direction of our Salat as ordered in Quran.
KYO MIRCHI LAG JATI HAI NA!!?/

When some one tells you the truth "aapko mirchi lag jati hai",
As per your above comments its force me to believe that ' UN KNOWLEDGABLE/ ILLITERATE MUSLIMS DOES WORSHIPS KAABA AND BLACK STONE" am I right? if yes DOESN'T IT SHIRK???
Sister,
By the way you are right, I should have clear that Prophet Mohammed didn't worshiped the Black stone as others idols worshipers doing right now like Hindus. nor he worshiped black stone same like 'LAT" & MUNAT IDOLS were worshiped by peoples of that time, they considered them as a God which is Shirk in Islam
Thanks to bring this mistake in my knowledge.
They considers idols as a 'GOD' Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) worshiped it in respect because H. Ibrahim (pbuh) used to sit on that and performing Namaz.

When MHI says that Islam (including shia/sunnie/ismailies and any other sects in ismlam) has much more in common and in harmony with other Ibramihic faith, like Jewish and Christian; we should learn from it and embrace the little differences in the interpretation of Islam amongst sunnie and shia within Islam itself. Why can't we just let it be? I am sure for a believer, sunnie or shia path can lead to salvation, even if there are difference of opinion in interpreting Islam.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:24 pm

When MHI says that Islam (including shia/sunnie/ismailies and any other sects in ismlam) has much more in common and in harmony with other Ibramihic faith, like Jewish and Christian; we should learn from it and embrace the little differences in the interpretation of Islam amongst sunnie and shia within Islam itself. Why can't we just let it be? I am sure for a believer, sunnie or shia path can lead to salvation, even if there are difference of opinion in interpreting Islam.

Any interpretation of Islam not included in Quran is not acceptable as far as majority of Ummah is concerned.