Allah and the Nur of Allah

[kmaherali]

Other interesting aspect of Noor. Ginan says 'Noor vera Noor piyo' or 'Noor na piyala chhandhiti Huraa(n) aaie' (suggestion is to drink water of Noor), AND Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said in a Farman," Till a man is alive he can't get WATER OF NOOR in his lifetime".
Is Noor some sort of water?
Your take Kmaherali.

I once asked you to provide reference of the Farman you quoted which you never did. Could you provide date and place where this was made.

Light is some sort of water in the sense that just as water quenches the physical thirst by drinking it. Noor quenches spiritual thirst by drinking it. Ask yourself what quenches the spiritual thirst.

There is an article on the universal symbolism of light: A universal symbol at:
https://www.dawn.com/news/1468327

[swamidada]

Other interesting aspect of Noor. Ginan says 'Noor vera Noor piyo' or 'Noor na piyala chhandhiti Huraa(n) aaie' (suggestion is to drink water of Noor), AND Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said in a Farman," Till a man is alive he can't get WATER OF NOOR in his lifetime".
Is Noor some sort of water?
Your take Kmaherali.

I once asked you to provide reference of the Farman you quoted which you never did. Could you provide date and place where this was made.

Light is some sort of water in the sense that just as water quenches the physical thirst by drinking it. Noor quenches spiritual thirst by drinking it. Ask yourself what quenches the spiritual thirst.

There is an article on the universal symbolism of light: A universal symbol at:
https://www.dawn.com/news/1468327

I did provide you the reference you may forgot. No problem here once again.

The Framan is published in the Farman booklet named RUHANI ROSHNI published by Ismailia Association for Pakistan, printed by Abbasi Litho Press Karachi in 1977 (first edition) and (second edition) in 1981. I have Gujrati edition. The Farman is on page # 17. It reads;

INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI

When water of Noor is not available in life time, then what one suppose to do with quenching of thirst!!

[kmaherali]

INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI

Please can you quote the paragraph in which it is mentioned and the date and place.

Having a thirst for spiritual vision is essential in our Tariqah. For example we a Ginan : Hunre piyaasi piya tere darashaki ( I am thirsty my love for your Vision)

Hence I would like to know the context of the statement made by the Imam.

[swamidada]

INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI

Please can you quote the paragraph in which it is mentioned and the date and place.

Having a thirst for spiritual vision is essential in our Tariqah. For example we a Ginan : Hunre piyaasi piya tere darashaki ( I am thirsty my love for your Vision)

Hence I would like to know the context of the statement made by the Imam.

The date mentioned on the very first page of RUHANI ROSHINI (Gujrati version) is October 6, 1905 and the place is Nairobi. I am quoting the paragraph of the Farman:

INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI, KARAN(N) KE KHUDA NA KHASTA, VEES, TREES ATHWA CHALEES VARASH BAAD TE PACHHO MAGRUR BANI JAYA ANEY GUNAAH NA NAPAAK A'MAAL KAREY TOU TE SHAITAAN MISAAL BANI JAYA CHHE.
DAKHLA TARIQEY JUOO AZAZEEL POTANI BUNDAGI THI SAATMA AASMAAN SUDHI POHU(N)CHI GAYO PUN(N) DHARAM NA MAGAJ NE TE SAMJHIO NAAHI. TENEY KHUDA NU FARMAN NAHI MAANYO TETHI SHAITAAN THAEI NE JAMMIN PAR PARYO. TAMEY PUN(N) JIYAN SUDHI DUNYA MA CHHO TIYAN SUDHI KIYAREY PUN(N) MAGRUR THASHO NAHI, JARA PUN(N) NAPAKI NA KAAM KARSHO NAHI.

You quoted 'HUN RE PIYASI PIYA TERE DARSHAN KI', piyasi tere darshan ki is a poetical expression means I am dying for your vision, here it doesn't mean Noorani water.

[kmaherali]

INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI, KARAN(N) KE KHUDA NA KHASTA, VEES, TREES ATHWA CHALEES VARASH BAAD TE PACHHO MAGRUR BANI JAYA ANEY GUNAAH NA NAPAAK A'MAAL KAREY TOU TE SHAITAAN MISAAL BANI JAYA CHHE.
DAKHLA TARIQEY JUOO AZAZEEL POTANI BUNDAGI THI SAATMA AASMAAN SUDHI POHU(N)CHI GAYO PUN(N) DHARAM NA MAGAJ NE TE SAMJHIO NAAHI. TENEY KHUDA NU FARMAN NAHI MAANYO TETHI SHAITAAN THAEI NE JAMMIN PAR PARYO. TAMEY PUN(N) JIYAN SUDHI DUNYA MA CHHO TIYAN SUDHI KIYAREY PUN(N) MAGRUR THASHO NAHI, JARA PUN(N) NAPAKI NA KAAM KARSHO NAHI.

Thanks for the whole paragraph. now it is very clear why he made that statement. It was intended to prevent people from being proud from their spiritual experiences. The present Imam has also told us not to articulate our spiritual attainments and make show of them. However that does not mean that enlightenment or darshan does not happen in this life. There is a verse of Kalame Mowla which states:

jo hove sab eelam-me(n) kaamal, to been peechhaane naa kaheve baat;
apanaa bhed keese naa kahenaa, jo khudaane kaameel keetee hae zhaat;
e naseehat suno yaadaj raakho, apanaa bhed keese naa kahenaa;
bhed jeeyu(n) heeraa maannak amulakh, so murakh haath nahee denaa...............99

He who has attained perfection in knowledge, speaks [about it] only when he is asked. Do not speak of your (inner) attainment to anyone when God graces you with His essence. Listen to this advice and remember it: do not speak of your (spiritual) realisation to anyone. That inner secret is precious like diamonds and rubies, do not give it away to a foolish man.

You quoted 'HUN RE PIYASI PIYA TERE DARSHAN KI', piyasi tere darshan ki is a poetical expression means I am dying for your vision, here it doesn't mean Noorani water.

I never said piyaasi meant water. I meant it to mean thirst for water!

[swamidada]

INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI, KARAN(N) KE KHUDA NA KHASTA, VEES, TREES ATHWA CHALEES VARASH BAAD TE PACHHO MAGRUR BANI JAYA ANEY GUNAAH NA NAPAAK A'MAAL KAREY TOU TE SHAITAAN MISAAL BANI JAYA CHHE.
DAKHLA TARIQEY JUOO AZAZEEL POTANI BUNDAGI THI SAATMA AASMAAN SUDHI POHU(N)CHI GAYO PUN(N) DHARAM NA MAGAJ NE TE SAMJHIO NAAHI. TENEY KHUDA NU FARMAN NAHI MAANYO TETHI SHAITAAN THAEI NE JAMMIN PAR PARYO. TAMEY PUN(N) JIYAN SUDHI DUNYA MA CHHO TIYAN SUDHI KIYAREY PUN(N) MAGRUR THASHO NAHI, JARA PUN(N) NAPAKI NA KAAM KARSHO NAHI.

Thanks for the whole paragraph. now it is very clear why he made that statement. It was intended to prevent people from being proud from their spiritual experiences. The present Imam has also told us not to articulate our spiritual attainments and make show of them. However that does not mean that enlightenment or darshan does not happen in this life. There is a verse of Kalame Mowla which states:

jo hove sab eelam-me(n) kaamal, to been peechhaane naa kaheve baat;
apanaa bhed keese naa kahenaa, jo khudaane kaameel keetee hae zhaat;
e naseehat suno yaadaj raakho, apanaa bhed keese naa kahenaa;
bhed jeeyu(n) heeraa maannak amulakh, so murakh haath nahee denaa...............99

He who has attained perfection in knowledge, speaks [about it] only when he is asked. Do not speak of your (inner) attainment to anyone when God graces you with His essence. Listen to this advice and remember it: do not speak of your (spiritual) realisation to anyone. That inner secret is precious like diamonds and rubies, do not give it away to a foolish man.

You quoted 'HUN RE PIYASI PIYA TERE DARSHAN KI', piyasi tere darshan ki is a poetical expression means I am dying for your vision, here it doesn't mean Noorani water.

I never said piyaasi meant water. I meant it to mean thirst for water!

The debate is about Noor and water of Noor, where as in your above post you are shedding light on secrets, that these inner secrets should not be shared with others.
You are aware of Quranic statement that when Moses requested God about His Vision. The reply was negative. Allah said, "LUN TARANI", YOU CAN'T SEE ME. Now look at Imam's words;
"INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI".
When Imam said 'Noor nu Pan(n)i' means it is reality. Allah is Noor and from Him flows river of Noor but in human form it is not accessible.

[kmaherali]

The debate is about Noor and water of Noor, where as in your above post you are shedding light on secrets, that these inner secrets should not be shared with others.
You are aware of Quranic statement that when Moses requested God about His Vision. The reply was negative. Allah said, "LUN TARANI", YOU CAN'T SEE ME. Now look at Imam's words;
"INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI".
When Imam said 'Noor nu Pan(n)i' means it is reality. Allah is Noor and from Him flows river of Noor but in human form it is not accessible.

Yes the essence or secrets is of course Nurani deedar. This is achived through the quenching of the thirst for Deedar.

Hence the secrets cannot be attained except through the quenching of the thirst through Noor. Since Deedar is possible in this life, it follows that the Noor is also available in this life.

Now as I said before the Imam stated that the noor is not available in this life is to discourage people to shout about and be proud of it. He is asking for humility even though you may have achieved it.

Otherwise why would he mention Azazil falling down. It means he had attained certain status in this life!

[swamidada]

The debate is about Noor and water of Noor, where as in your above post you are shedding light on secrets, that these inner secrets should not be shared with others.
You are aware of Quranic statement that when Moses requested God about His Vision. The reply was negative. Allah said, "LUN TARANI", YOU CAN'T SEE ME. Now look at Imam's words;
"INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI".
When Imam said 'Noor nu Pan(n)i' means it is reality. Allah is Noor and from Him flows river of Noor but in human form it is not accessible.

.

Since Deedar is possible in this life, it follows that the Noor is also available in this life.

Now as I said before the Imam stated that the noor is not available in this life is to discourage people to shout about and be proud of it. He is asking for humility even though you may have achieved it.

Otherwise why would he mention Azazil falling down. It means he had attained certain status in this life!

You wrote, "Since Deedar is possible in this life...". Zahiri Deedar YES, but Noorani Deedar is not possible according to Farman of Imam. Please analyze words of Imam 'INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY...'.
When a Momin is fortunate enough to get some spiritual secrets, will not be able to disclose or express because as in Ginan it is said;
JEM GU(N)GEY SAPNA PAIYA
SAMAJH SAMAJH PACHHTAI

You wrote,"Azazil attained certain status in this life". Did he received Noorani Water, answer is NO, because if he had received Noorani Water should not have DISOBEYED GOD. Azazil's falling from grace was, he did not obeyed the COMMAND.

[kmaherali]

You wrote, "Since Deedar is possible in this life...". Zahiri Deedar YES, but Noorani Deedar is not possible according to Farman of Imam. Please analyze words of Imam 'INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY...'.
When a Momin is fortunate enough to get some spiritual secrets, will not be able to disclose or express because as in Ginan it is said;
JEM GU(N)GEY SAPNA PAIYA
SAMAJH SAMAJH PACHHTAI

You wrote,"Azazil attained certain status in this life". Did he received Noorani Water, answer is NO, because if he had received Noorani Water should not have DISOBEYED GOD. Azazil's falling from grace was, he did not obeyed the COMMAND.

The problem with you is that you are clinging to one statement taken out of context.

The present Imam is very clear that enlightenment - Nurani Deedar happens in this life as per the Farmam below.

"If you have been successful, keep that success to yourselves. If you wish to come for promotion, you can come for promotion in due course. Because the “Bol” is a link, it is a way to come closer and closer during your lifetime to that Light. And one day, there will only be that Light, there will be no physical context left in the life of each individual. Therefore, seek out that Light and practise regularly, and be discreet."(London 6/8/1994)

[swamidada]

You wrote, "Since Deedar is possible in this life...". Zahiri Deedar YES, but Noorani Deedar is not possible according to Farman of Imam. Please analyze words of Imam 'INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY...'.
When a Momin is fortunate enough to get some spiritual secrets, will not be able to disclose or express because as in Ginan it is said;
JEM GU(N)GEY SAPNA PAIYA
SAMAJH SAMAJH PACHHTAI

You wrote,"Azazil attained certain status in this life". Did he received Noorani Water, answer is NO, because if he had received Noorani Water should not have DISOBEYED GOD. Azazil's falling from grace was, he did not obeyed the COMMAND.

The problem with you is that you are clinging to one statement taken out of context.

The present Imam is very clear that enlightenment - Nurani Deedar happens in this life as per the Farmam below.

"If you have been successful, keep that success to yourselves. If you wish to come for promotion, you can come for promotion in due course. Because the “Bol” is a link, it is a way to come closer and closer during your lifetime to that Light. And one day, there will only be that Light, there will be no physical context left in the life of each individual. Therefore, seek out that Light and practise regularly, and be discreet."(London 6/8/1994)

INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PAAN(N)I TEENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI, KARAN(N) KE KHUDA NA KHASTA, VEES, TREES ATHWA CHALEES VARASH BAAD TE PACHHO MAGRUR BANI JAYA ANEY GUNAAH NA NAPAAK A'MAAL KAREY TOU TE SHAITAAN MISAAL BANI JAYA CHHE.
DAKHLA TARIQEY JUOO AZAZEEL POTANI BUNDAGI THI SAATMA AASMAAN SUDHI POHU(N)CHI GAYO PUN(N) DHARAM NA MAGAJ NE TE SAMJHIO NAAHI. TENEY KHUDA NU FARMAN NAHI MAANYO TETHI SHAITAAN THAEI NE JAMMIN PAR PARYO. TAMEY PUN(N) JIYAN SUDHI DUNYA MA CHHO TIYAN SUDHI KIYAREY PUN(N) MAGRUR THASHO NAHI, JARA PUN(N) NAPAKI NA KAAM KARSHO NAHI.

Once again, please ponder on the above Farman By Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah. Clearly Imam said," Till a person is alive in this world can't get the Water of Noor", means not possible. Other part of Farman explains why is it not possible, the words starts ' dakhla tariqey, for example' and Imam gave example of Azazeel.

You quoted Farman of present Imam Shah Karim of 1994, do you think in 1905 it was not possible but in 1994 it is possible with new Farman on this subject.

[kmaherali]

You quoted Farman of present Imam Shah Karim of 1994, do you think in 1905 it was not possible but in 1994 it is possible with new Farman on this subject.

Should we follow the present Imam or the previous Imam?

[swamidada]

You quoted Farman of present Imam Shah Karim of 1994, do you think in 1905 it was not possible but in 1994 it is possible with new Farman on this subject.

Should we follow the present Imam or the previous Imam?

Your statement cleared the fog that you believe in Farmans of present Imam, then please follow the guidance mentioned in 'The Preamble' by present Imam.

In the spiritual kingdom, does the Farman of predecessor and successor Imam contradict? In 1905 it was not possible but in 1994 it is possible. The question is about upliftment and enlighten of soul spiritually?

[kmaherali]

In the spiritual kingdom, does the Farman of predecessor and successor Imam contradict? In 1905 it was not possible but in 1994 it is possible. The question is about upliftment and enlighten of soul spiritually?

Yes the Farmans do not contradict on spiritual matters.

MSMS has said that man can be in union with God in this life:

"Live in this world, and while living in this world, do good deeds. A momin can also be in union with the Ultimate in this world." (Dar es Salaam, Mar 9, 1925)

However you have taken the Farman out of context without realizing the proper meaning of the context. Hence you are contradicting the present Imam.

[swamidada]

In the spiritual kingdom, does the Farman of predecessor and successor Imam contradict? In 1905 it was not possible but in 1994 it is possible. The question is about upliftment and enlighten of soul spiritually?

Yes the Farmans do not contradict on spiritual matters.

MSMS has said that man can be in union with God in this life:

"Live in this world, and while living in this world, do good deeds. A momin can also be in union with the Ultimate in this world." (Dar es Salaam, Mar 9, 1925)

However you have taken the Farman out of context without realizing the proper meaning of the context. Hence you are contradicting the present Imam.

Can you explain this Farman of London you quoted., particularly the sentence,' there will be NO PHYSICAL CONTEXT left in the life of each individual'.
"And one day, there will only be that Light, there will be no physical context left in the life of each individual. Therefore, seek out that Light and practise regularly, and be discreet."(London 6/8/1994)

Can you provide me the name of Farman book from which you took the quote of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, and which Ismailia Association published the Farman book.

"Live in this world, and while living in this world, do good deeds. A momin can also be in union with the Ultimate in this world." (Dar es Salaam, Mar 9, 1925)

[kmaherali]

Can you explain this Farman of London you quoted., particularly the sentence,' there will be NO PHYSICAL CONTEXT left in the life of each individual'.
"And one day, there will only be that Light, there will be no physical context left in the life of each individual. Therefore, seek out that Light and practise regularly, and be discreet."(London 6/8/1994)

In my humble opinion, this is another way of explaining Fana Fi Allah. Your identity merges with that of God.

"If a person keeps such a fast that he stays aloof from the taste of the entire worldly existence, then his batuni eyes and ears will open. A human being does not have the capability of creating a man, but he may see in such a manner that he gets to know God's mysteries and wonders.(Farman No. 17, (Manjevaadi 28-12-1893) )

There is a hadith which states:

“Allah, the Almighty said, ‘Whoever has mutual animosity with a friend (wali) of Mine, I declare war upon him. My servant does not draw near to Me with anything more beloved to Me than the religious duties that I have imposed upon him; and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I would love him. And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his leg with which he walks. Were he to ask of Me, I would surely give him; and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant it to him.”

Can you provide me the name of Farman book from which you took the quote of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, and which Ismailia Association published the Farman book.

"Live in this world, and while living in this world, do good deeds. A momin can also be in union with the Ultimate in this world." (Dar es Salaam, Mar 9, 1925)

I got this Farman from Ruhani Raaz which contains transliterations and translations of Farmans in KIM - Kalame Imame Mubin.

I have provided you with the date and place and hence you can reference KIM.

https://books.google.ca/books/about/Ruh ... edir_esc=y

[swamidada]

Can you explain this Farman of London you quoted., particularly the sentence,' there will be NO PHYSICAL CONTEXT left in the life of each individual'.
"And one day, there will only be that Light, there will be no physical context left in the life of each individual. Therefore, seek out that Light and practise regularly, and be discreet."(London 6/8/1994)

In my humble opinion, this is another way of explaining Fana Fi Allah. Your identity merges with that of God.

"If a person keeps such a fast that he stays aloof from the taste of the entire worldly existence, then his batuni eyes and ears will open. A human being does not have the capability of creating a man, but he may see in such a manner that he gets to know God's mysteries and wonders.(Farman No. 17, (Manjevaadi 28-12-1893) )

"If a person keeps such a fast that he stays aloof from the taste of the entire worldly existence...

The first sentence of above Farman by MSMS quoted by you suggests to stay away from worldly affairs then batuni eyes and ears will open. Where as present Imam said have balanced in your worldly and spiritual affairs. Previous Imam said stay away from worldly affairs and present Imam said involve in worldly affairs, any comment.
Also in the same Farman MSMS said," A human being does not have the capability of creating a man".
When a human being is unable to create any form of creation then how he would claim to be God?

[kmaherali]

The first sentence of above Farman by MSMS quoted by you suggests to stay away from worldly affairs then batuni eyes and ears will open. Where as present Imam said have balanced in your worldly and spiritual affairs. Previous Imam said stay away from worldly affairs and present Imam said involve in worldly affairs, any comment.

You can of course engage in the world but with detachment. Otherwise how can one earn his/her livelihood?

Also in the same Farman MSMS said," A human being does not have the capability of creating a man".
When a human being is unable to create any form of creation then how he would claim to be God?

It is wrong for anyone to claim he is God. That is a personal matter.

[swamidada]

The first sentence of above Farman by MSMS quoted by you suggests to stay away from worldly affairs then batuni eyes and ears will open. Where as present Imam said have balanced in your worldly and spiritual affairs. Previous Imam said stay away from worldly affairs and present Imam said involve in worldly affairs, any comment.

You can of course engage in the world but with detachment. Otherwise how can one earn his/her livelihood?

I think you mean;

DUNYA MAI(N) HUU(N) DUNYA KA TALABGAAR NAHI HUU(N)
BAZAAR SEY GUZRA HUU(N) KHARIDAAR NAHI HUU(N)

It is like soup without salt.

[kmaherali]

It is like soup without salt.

A person who detaches himself with his batuni eyes and ears open will encounter God in all walks of his life: "wherever you turn, there is the face of God" (Quran 2:115). Hence the whole of existence is filled with spiritual happiness and joy.

[swamidada]

It is like soup without salt.

A person who detaches himself with his batuni eyes and ears open will encounter God in all walks of his life: "wherever you turn, there is the face of God" (Quran 2:115). Hence the whole of existence is filled with spiritual happiness and joy.

Face of God means Noor of God.

TAJALA TERI NOOR KA SU BASU HAI
JIDHAR DEKHTA HUU(N) TU HI TU HAI

Brightness of your Noor is every where
In which direction I see is only your face.

[kmaherali]

Brightness of your Noor is every where
In which direction I see is only your face.

Hence is it not soup without salt as you stated.

[swamidada]

Brightness of your Noor is every where
In which direction I see is only your face.

Hence is it not soup without salt as you stated.

I think you have mingled my previous two posts. You have mentioned the meaning of couplet I wrote, which was my answer to your explanation of 'Face of Allah'.

Regarding 'soup and salt' I wrote the following couplet;

DUNYA MAI(N) HUU(N) DUNYA KA TALABGAAR NAHI HUU(N)
BAZAAR SEY GUZRA HUU(N) KHARIDAAR NAHI HUU(N)

I am in this (material) world but desire or demand nothing from this world.
I am in the baazar (market) of this world but I am not a buyer (I am not interested in this material world).

I have read about many sufis, saints, and sadhus who were detached from this material world and lived a distasteful life. Even they consumed tasteless food adding more water or without adding salt in soup.

[kmaherali]

I have read about many sufis, saints, and sadhus who were detached from this material world and lived a distasteful life. Even they consumed tasteless food adding more water or without adding salt in soup.

Distasteful life from whose perspective? From the perspective of the real Sufis nothing is distasteful.

Verses of Ginan:

saamee maaraajee hareeyaa so hareeyaa ne sukaabee hareeyaa
jo hove najar tamaareeyaa(n) jee.................4

Oh my Lord, the fresh and green ones will remain fresh and green
and the dry and withered ones will also become fresh if they are
encompassed by Your merciful sight.

saamee maaraajee meetthaa so meetthaa ane kaddavaa bhee meetthaa
to aa gur ke vachane fal meetthaddaa jee.........5

Oh my Lord, the sweet ones will remain sweet and the sour ones will become sweet.
Through the (obedience to the) commands of this Guide all the fruits
(of our actions) will become sweet.

[swamidada]

I have read about many sufis, saints, and sadhus who were detached from this material world and lived a distasteful life. Even they consumed tasteless food adding more water or without adding salt in soup.

Distasteful life from whose perspective? From the perspective of the real Sufis nothing is distasteful.

Verses of Ginan:

saamee maaraajee hareeyaa so hareeyaa ne sukaabee hareeyaa
jo hove najar tamaareeyaa(n) jee.................4

Oh my Lord, the fresh and green ones will remain fresh and green
and the dry and withered ones will also become fresh if they are
encompassed by Your merciful sight.

Your quotation of Ginan is not to the point.

I wrote, sufis are detached from worldly affairs and live distasteful life. Now look at the meaning and pay attention to the words 'JO HOVEY NAJAR TAMARIYA JI'. Here a Momin is humbly, down to earth beseech Imam for upliftment of his soul.

[kmaherali]

I wrote, sufis are detached from worldly affairs and live distasteful life. Now look at the meaning and pay attention to the words 'JO HOVEY NAJAR TAMARIYA JI'. Here a Momin is humbly, down to earth beseech Imam for upliftment of his soul.

We are not talking of any ordinary person but a person whose batuni eyes have opened. Once the batuni eyes are opened then the person is able to see all mysteries. There is no question about Jo Havey Nazar tamariya.

[swamidada]

I wrote, sufis are detached from worldly affairs and live distasteful life. Now look at the meaning and pay attention to the words 'JO HOVEY NAJAR TAMARIYA JI'. Here a Momin is humbly, down to earth beseech Imam for upliftment of his soul.

We are not talking of any ordinary person but a person whose batuni eyes have opened. Once the batuni eyes are opened then the person is able to see all mysteries. There is no question about Jo Havey Nazar tamariya.

Hazar Imam in Farman said " Noor is not yours to be taken... ", that what Pir explained 'JO HOVEY NAJAR TAMARIYA JI'.

[kmaherali]

Hazar Imam in Farman said " Noor is not yours to be taken... ", that what Pir explained 'JO HOVEY NAJAR TAMARIYA JI'.

Remember we are talking about individuals whose batuni eyes have been opened through detachment as per MSMS. The batuni eyes cannot be opened without his nazar!

We are not talking about ordinary individuals in this discussion. We are talking of elevated souls who experience Noor everywhere.

[swamidada]

Hazar Imam in Farman said " Noor is not yours to be taken... ", that what Pir explained 'JO HOVEY NAJAR TAMARIYA JI'.

Remember we are talking about individuals whose batuni eyes have been opened through detachment as per MSMS. The batuni eyes cannot be opened without his nazar!

We are not talking about ordinary individuals in this discussion. We are talking of elevated souls who experience Noor everywhere.

Indirectly you agreed with me. Without Imam's Nazr e Karam batuni eyes will not open " the dry and withered ones will also become fresh if they are
encompassed by Your merciful sight".

[kmaherali]

Indirectly you agreed with me. Without Imam's Nazr e Karam batuni eyes will not open " the dry and withered ones will also become fresh if they are
encompassed by Your merciful sight".

Yes the batuni eyes will not open without the NAZAR. However in this discussion we are talking about persons whose batuni eyes have been opened already. Hence talking about nazar is meaningless in this context.

[swamidada]

Indirectly you agreed with me. Without Imam's Nazr e Karam batuni eyes will not open " the dry and withered ones will also become fresh if they are
encompassed by Your merciful sight".

Yes the batuni eyes will not open without the NAZAR. However in this discussion we are talking about persons whose batuni eyes have been opened already. Hence talking about nazar is meaningless in this context.

Nazar e Karam plays important role to open the inner eyes, and batuni eyes are open because of his Karam, it is not meaningless. Here are beautiful couplets from poetry for you;

NAZAR MEI(N) RAHTEY HO
PAR NAZAR NAHEI(N) AATEY
YEH BHI HAI TERI NAZAR KA KARAM
AASHNA HUU(N) RAAZ E KAINAT SE