Don't tell me as a brother, it is a sins because you are my little piglet and 'JIVAN SANG CHARINI' "જીવનસંગ ચારીણી" tane to bhai kaheta sharam aavavi joiye.When you are dealing with brother like Agakhini you have to have thick skin.
After death
You are making a personal attack, calling me a "ginan hater." I ask request you to provide reference to a ginan, quote or anything authentic which validates this thought before Pir Sulehdin, Pir Salahdin and Pir Shamsuddin started using these concepts to convert Hindus into Ismaili.
In short, I ask you to provide a reference before the time of Pir Sulehdin so we can have more evidence of this concept existing at the time of the holy prophet.
I personally believe it will be hard to find such a concept, because this was not a Islamic thought, this was a tool used to convert Hindus.
If you feel Ali=Allah, then all ismailis/muslims that came before Pir Sulehdin died in vain.
In short, I ask you to provide a reference before the time of Pir Sulehdin so we can have more evidence of this concept existing at the time of the holy prophet.
I personally believe it will be hard to find such a concept, because this was not a Islamic thought, this was a tool used to convert Hindus.
If you feel Ali=Allah, then all ismailis/muslims that came before Pir Sulehdin died in vain.
agakhani wrote:Chalo ek aour ginan haters ka dakhila hua!! one more ginan hater is joining forum, if he really not Tret.These statements were used to equate Ali to Vishnu, to increase Hindu conversion success. The Pirs did a fantastic job in using Hindu beliefs to convince people to accept Ismailism. I
Sheri name is gals name in USA.
So assume that you are a gal, which I doubt though.
Only think I can say about your above comments , you needs to read ginans deeply, not all ginans talk about Vishnu or has any Hindu elements.
This is a very lame suggestion. Open discussion is what leads to progress of thought. Our religion excels based on critical thought. Ismailism will become stale by suppressing questions towards our religion. If you cannot answer the questions I have raised in a rational manner, how do you plan to explain this concept to the next generation of Ismailis who will have more access to information and a capacity to think further along than this generational has been able to do so.
tret wrote: As I said, what you believe is only personal to you. Keep it to yourself as a treasure and don't make it look like a nasty thing to others, for others may not understand the value of it.
If you reveal it to others, then you don't have it! has been my message hinting everyone around here. Now good luck dealing with another zznoor!!
You guys inviting these people to come and insult our great tariqa!!
Assumption based on your preference is dangerous my dear friend! For one, I would never never ever say anything against Maula Ali to even be considered as an insult! You have your opinion, and you'r welcome to it!
sheri wrote:This is a very lame suggestion. Open discussion is what leads to progress of thought. Our religion excels based on critical thought. Ismailism will become stale by suppressing questions towards our religion. If you cannot answer the questions I have raised in a rational manner, how do you plan to explain this concept to the next generation of Ismailis who will have more access to information and a capacity to think further along than this generational has been able to do so.
tret wrote: As I said, what you believe is only personal to you. Keep it to yourself as a treasure and don't make it look like a nasty thing to others, for others may not understand the value of it.
If you reveal it to others, then you don't have it! has been my message hinting everyone around here. Now good luck dealing with another zznoor!!
You guys inviting these people to come and insult our great tariqa!!
Assumption based on your preference is dangerous my dear friend! For one, I would never never ever say anything against Maula Ali to even be considered as an insult! You have your opinion, and you'r welcome to it!
It all depends on one's perception. from where I see it makes perfect sense!
Why do you think God created this universe and then symbolized and mysticised everything behind the Ayats of the Qur'an as secrets? Why this universe is still a mystery, even though the science has been progressing exponentially, but yet science is still amazed and mystecised! Couldn't God just gave us the answer straight forward, and there wouldn't be any need for any prophets or books or any of that? Then what would be the point of the creation?
The way I look at it, it's our test! And it's our purpose to find out who we are, at a personal level! Not at a religion's level, nor at regions level or generation level! It's each and every individual's journey to figure out who she/he is and for that she/he doesn't need any one else in that wayfaring!
And as for the next generation of Ismailies, with more access to information and more advanced, I would say, it'll be rather easier to get the responses and satisfaction that they would be looking for!
From what you have said, I will use an analogy.
Ali=Allah likes playing treasure hunt. Ali=Allah has hidden all the mysteries of creation and has created man/women to find the hidden notes that lead to the ultimate treasure that is Ali=Allah.
It is man's obligation to participate in this treasure hunt. So, basically Ali=Allah is playing games with mankind. What fun does Ali=Allah have by doing this to mankind?
Only a few Ismailis have figured out the mysteries and that mystery is to believe that Ali=Allah. The rest 6.999 billion human beings are doomed.
I hope that we don't drift off from the original issue of Ali=Allah with this. I would appreciate it if you could come back to the fundamental question of Ali=Allah and add any sources before the time of the conversion of Hindus to Ismailis to provide more evidence. Our religion is based on Aql and facts. Not on self-realization. Even the monks claim to achieve it.
Ali=Allah likes playing treasure hunt. Ali=Allah has hidden all the mysteries of creation and has created man/women to find the hidden notes that lead to the ultimate treasure that is Ali=Allah.
It is man's obligation to participate in this treasure hunt. So, basically Ali=Allah is playing games with mankind. What fun does Ali=Allah have by doing this to mankind?
Only a few Ismailis have figured out the mysteries and that mystery is to believe that Ali=Allah. The rest 6.999 billion human beings are doomed.
I hope that we don't drift off from the original issue of Ali=Allah with this. I would appreciate it if you could come back to the fundamental question of Ali=Allah and add any sources before the time of the conversion of Hindus to Ismailis to provide more evidence. Our religion is based on Aql and facts. Not on self-realization. Even the monks claim to achieve it.
tret wrote: Why do you think God created this universe and then symbolized and mysticised everything behind the Ayats of the Qur'an as secrets? Why this universe is still a mystery, even though the science has been progressing exponentially, but yet science is still amazed and mystecised! Couldn't God just gave us the answer straight forward, and there wouldn't be any need for any prophets or books or any of that? Then what would be the point of the creation?
The way I look at it, it's our test! And it's our purpose to find out who we are, at a personal level! Not at a religion's level, nor at regions level or generation level! It's each and every individual's journey to figure out who she/he is and for that she/he doesn't need any one else in that wayfaring!
Is there another forum that would be more suitable for this discussion. If so, which one? Also, would it be possible for you to move the commentary to that forum to maintain relevance and flow of this topic?
Admin wrote:Some new comers here may not have realised this but this thread is "AFTER DEATH" Please stick to the subject and do not wonder
Ya Ali Madad:
I just read only Ismailis have God/ALI with them n rest of the world population are not exactly doomed but lost.
IN Quran Allah has said he annihilated many civilizations whose population
figure of each era in not known,It must be lacs or millions then.
All Ayat he specifically mentions the name of the persons he saved may 2 to 5
persons in each era.
those saved believers were micro micro percentage of the then population.
Same in today's time Ismailis are in micro percentage of the world population.
Earlier saved they were in single digit now we are around 25 million strong.
If somebody observes the Kalima properly and do spiritual belief mapping of the earth.
It can tell what can come and store for the human populations.
Certain unprecedented natural disaster n weather formulations happening is just very micro percentage of thing to happen in future.
Man has astray ed and paying or rewarded for their own past doing.
Our Baatin aspect of Faith is so real n powerful than one need not dig
data of 1400 years old DEBATE about dead tales but talk of reality of today n even predict the future from Farmans of Imams n Quran ( baatin maina from it).
From Quran not once but many time Unbelievers who were always
in MAJORITY were doomed,lost n marooned.
ALI ALLAH IS A BLESSED CONVICTION OF MOST ISMAILIS.
SAMAJDARO KO ISHARA KAFI HAI
I just read only Ismailis have God/ALI with them n rest of the world population are not exactly doomed but lost.
IN Quran Allah has said he annihilated many civilizations whose population
figure of each era in not known,It must be lacs or millions then.
All Ayat he specifically mentions the name of the persons he saved may 2 to 5
persons in each era.
those saved believers were micro micro percentage of the then population.
Same in today's time Ismailis are in micro percentage of the world population.
Earlier saved they were in single digit now we are around 25 million strong.
If somebody observes the Kalima properly and do spiritual belief mapping of the earth.
It can tell what can come and store for the human populations.
Certain unprecedented natural disaster n weather formulations happening is just very micro percentage of thing to happen in future.
Man has astray ed and paying or rewarded for their own past doing.
Our Baatin aspect of Faith is so real n powerful than one need not dig
data of 1400 years old DEBATE about dead tales but talk of reality of today n even predict the future from Farmans of Imams n Quran ( baatin maina from it).
From Quran not once but many time Unbelievers who were always
in MAJORITY were doomed,lost n marooned.
ALI ALLAH IS A BLESSED CONVICTION OF MOST ISMAILIS.
SAMAJDARO KO ISHARA KAFI HAI
This conviction is based on Ginans that were massaged to convince Hindus to convert to Ismailism. Unless, someone can provide evidence of this concept being present before the outreach of conversion by Pir Shams and others, there is no evidence that this is a universal Ismaili belief. It is only the belief of the Indo-Pak Ismailis who were converted.nuseri wrote: ALI ALLAH IS A BLESSED CONVICTION OF MOST ISMAILIS.
If the IMAM himself proclaims that he is the "mazar" of God and goes further to say that "the relationship between God and Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication from God to man."
Why are Ismailis going against the Imam and making him to be God instead of the 'Mazar' of God?
Ya Ali madad:
quote
'' If the IMAM himself proclaims that he is the "Mazhar" of God and goes further to say that "the relationship between God and Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication from God to man."
my POV.
1.where is the proclamation signed or said by MHI.
any proclamation for Ismailis from MHI to follow absolutely is called 'Farman'.
the next two line express the truth n Baatin to be understood by a primary school child.
it is related at 'VARING LEVELS'.(LEVELS WORD IS PLURAL)
OF INSPIRATIONS that is internal conviction and finally
'communication of God to man' it means a person receiving Baatin/Noorani inspirations to varing levels of relationship.
we Ismailis are levels of
Zahir,Baatin n Noorani
Tariqat,haqiqat marifat.
Each level much higher than others.
To me varing level of relationship of Imam to God is
level one of relationship
Imam is representative ,mazar,reflection,mirror image etc etc relating
to all physical status of Imam.
and God/Allah some in above him(shy of the world ,which he himself made)
level 2 of relationship.
Imam=God
Imam is ALI who is the only Allah.
level 3 of relationship as felt by Sufis
Imam/ALI greater than Allah.
this is an inspiration from GOD to man also.
Ali+lah=Allah.
I acknowledge the sentence posted but the word 'proclamation'
used is intended mischief word by a clever person.
because both
Imam Aga Ali Shah n Imam SMS proclaimed in their Farmans
that they ARE none other than Allah worded in a different way)
and MHI has not over ruled or changed than Farman because
HE is same ALI (body no 47 and body no 48.)
who gave this proclamation.
True Ismailis follow the Farman.
that is why we see less people nearest to truth n more to falsehood way
of belief n Life.
If a person is not blessed with varing levels of inspiration and communication from Ali+lah=Allah to him/her.
That person should read these line 10 times, and ASK what is Inspiration
and what is communication?
why that is lacking or not forthcoming in oneself?
The Word 'Mazhar'( nothing wrong in that word) was floated as a concept by some leaders as PEANUTS to throw at monkies then (intrusive
non and shallow Ismailis).
Getting carried away with that word
and not the words we pray daily n Farmans is sign of weak n shallow Ismaili,when the word of how a person relates Imam with God is kept
at Individual inspiration n communication to express the relationship
varing levels.
I wish member must come forward to express it.
We are Today Ismailis of any area because of our Pirs n Dai's were marfatis
n gave in near purity the communication received by them from God/Ali
to Man/Them tous to become Ismailis.
If they had sold the concept of anything less than Haqiqat or even at mazhar level.
I am very sure they would ran away from Imam and become Non Ismailis themselves.
quote
'' If the IMAM himself proclaims that he is the "Mazhar" of God and goes further to say that "the relationship between God and Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication from God to man."
my POV.
1.where is the proclamation signed or said by MHI.
any proclamation for Ismailis from MHI to follow absolutely is called 'Farman'.
the next two line express the truth n Baatin to be understood by a primary school child.
it is related at 'VARING LEVELS'.(LEVELS WORD IS PLURAL)
OF INSPIRATIONS that is internal conviction and finally
'communication of God to man' it means a person receiving Baatin/Noorani inspirations to varing levels of relationship.
we Ismailis are levels of
Zahir,Baatin n Noorani
Tariqat,haqiqat marifat.
Each level much higher than others.
To me varing level of relationship of Imam to God is
level one of relationship
Imam is representative ,mazar,reflection,mirror image etc etc relating
to all physical status of Imam.
and God/Allah some in above him(shy of the world ,which he himself made)
level 2 of relationship.
Imam=God
Imam is ALI who is the only Allah.
level 3 of relationship as felt by Sufis
Imam/ALI greater than Allah.
this is an inspiration from GOD to man also.
Ali+lah=Allah.
I acknowledge the sentence posted but the word 'proclamation'
used is intended mischief word by a clever person.
because both
Imam Aga Ali Shah n Imam SMS proclaimed in their Farmans
that they ARE none other than Allah worded in a different way)
and MHI has not over ruled or changed than Farman because
HE is same ALI (body no 47 and body no 48.)
who gave this proclamation.
True Ismailis follow the Farman.
that is why we see less people nearest to truth n more to falsehood way
of belief n Life.
If a person is not blessed with varing levels of inspiration and communication from Ali+lah=Allah to him/her.
That person should read these line 10 times, and ASK what is Inspiration
and what is communication?
why that is lacking or not forthcoming in oneself?
The Word 'Mazhar'( nothing wrong in that word) was floated as a concept by some leaders as PEANUTS to throw at monkies then (intrusive
non and shallow Ismailis).
Getting carried away with that word
and not the words we pray daily n Farmans is sign of weak n shallow Ismaili,when the word of how a person relates Imam with God is kept
at Individual inspiration n communication to express the relationship
varing levels.
I wish member must come forward to express it.
We are Today Ismailis of any area because of our Pirs n Dai's were marfatis
n gave in near purity the communication received by them from God/Ali
to Man/Them tous to become Ismailis.
If they had sold the concept of anything less than Haqiqat or even at mazhar level.
I am very sure they would ran away from Imam and become Non Ismailis themselves.
I don't know what "Mazhar" means. Like I don't know what "Prophet" means. These terms are hard to describe because only the holder of that title knows what it truly means.
If IMAM = Allah so why does he not just say "I am Allah." Why does the IMAM need to use the title "Mahzar" of Allah. If the Pirs proclaimed so openly that IMAM = Allah, why is IMAM hesitant to proclaim "I am Allah". Also, our current IMAM is also a Pir, so now Allah = IMAM = Pir. So basically, Holy prophet is now also Allah, and so is Jesus and every other prophet.
If a "Mazhar" of Allah = Allah, then by this argument we can also conclude that the "Prophet" of Allah = Allah, and the "Book" of Allah = Allah, "Children" of Allah = Allah and so we all are Allah.
If IMAM = Allah so why does he not just say "I am Allah." Why does the IMAM need to use the title "Mahzar" of Allah. If the Pirs proclaimed so openly that IMAM = Allah, why is IMAM hesitant to proclaim "I am Allah". Also, our current IMAM is also a Pir, so now Allah = IMAM = Pir. So basically, Holy prophet is now also Allah, and so is Jesus and every other prophet.
If a "Mazhar" of Allah = Allah, then by this argument we can also conclude that the "Prophet" of Allah = Allah, and the "Book" of Allah = Allah, "Children" of Allah = Allah and so we all are Allah.
Admin wrote:Please explain what is your interpretation of the word "Mazhar" and why you are objecting to other people's interpretation.
Mazhar = Locus of Manifestation (Place of Manifestation)sheri wrote: I don't know what "Mazhar" means. Like I don't know what "Prophet" means. These terms are hard to describe because only the holder of that title knows what it truly means.
If IMAM = Allah so why does he not just say "I am Allah." Why does the IMAM need to use the title "Mahzar" of Allah. If the Pirs proclaimed so openly that IMAM = Allah, why is IMAM hesitant to proclaim "I am Allah". Also, our current IMAM is also a Pir, so now Allah = IMAM = Pir. So basically, Holy prophet is now also Allah, and so is Jesus and every other prophet.
If a "Mazhar" of Allah = Allah, then by this argument we can also conclude that the "Prophet" of Allah = Allah, and the "Book" of Allah = Allah, "Children" of Allah = Allah and so we all are Allah.
According to my understanding, everything returns to Allah. In other words everything is from Allah. Allah accepts us only once/when we are ready. (That's the meaning of Asal me Wasil). When we purify our souls.
Ali/Imams obviously from Allah. Imams don't need purification, because they are Mahsoon (Infallible). Imams are locus of Manifestation of Allah (Mazhar of Allah). Imams are reflecting the divine attributes of Allah, such as The most merciful, All knowing, etc.. etc... (These divine attributes are for The Imam of the Time) These attributes can not be associated with Allah Himself.
A man can also become one with Allah, and as history witnessed, like Al Hallaj who claimed to be "In-ul-Haq" is because He become one with the Divine, and it was the Divine who was claiming, and not the ego of the man. So while we can't equate the Imam (Or the Prophets or the Pir's and Dai's or even men) to Allah Himself, however we can certainly say The Imam (Or the Prophets or the Pir's and Dai's or even men) are from Allah, and will return to Allah only.
I make a fine distinction between Allah and From Allah (Such as White or Whiteness), in a sense that if you take a glass of water from The Ocean You can certainly say the glass of water is take from The Ocean, but can you say the glass of water is The Ocean? However, you can find all the qualities and attributes of The Ocean in that same glass of water! But when we put back that glass of water into The Ocean, you shall never be able to find your glass of water again, because it submerged with The Ocean.
Some people don't want to make that distinction, and technically they are correct! I have no problem with that. But, what I really want, is to understand this, and consciously make/or not make the distinction.
I'd really like you'll to read this fine article about the decoding of the symbolism of our tariqa in the Aga Khan Museum of Toronto. It is certainly an added value to your repository of knowledge.
ismailimail.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/the-delegation-decoded-khalil-andani1.pdf
To Admin - BTW, do you know when the Museum is planned to open?
ismailimail.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/the-delegation-decoded-khalil-andani1.pdf
To Admin - BTW, do you know when the Museum is planned to open?
There are better article on symbolism and esoteric interpretation in Ismailism, for example this one:
An Ismaili Interpretation of the Fall of Adam
By Bernard Lewis
http://ismaili.net/Source/0836.html
An Ismaili Interpretation of the Fall of Adam
By Bernard Lewis
http://ismaili.net/Source/0836.html
All of what you have quoted are interpretations. These interpretations were made by individuals who used their imagination and best of knowledge to derive these conclusions. In Ismailism, everyone is free to make any interpretation they like or can imagine.
MHI has publicly said that he is the "Mazhar" of Allah. Unless, MHI does not publicly say I am Allah, all interpretations, conclusions, and hypothesis are just individual opinions and beliefs. They cannot be universal for all Ismailis.
I will again reiterate. If the Pirs can openly say that Ali=Allah (which was in the context of the conversion from Hindus to Ismailis). MHI should have more courage than the Pirs to say that he is Allah. Everyone is open to their interpretation and you can define "Mazhar" however you feel like, but you have to differentiate that MHI has never proclaimed that he is Allah.
We can really put an end to this debate if you can provide references to this claim besides in the context of the conversion from Hindus to Ismailis.
MHI has publicly said that he is the "Mazhar" of Allah. Unless, MHI does not publicly say I am Allah, all interpretations, conclusions, and hypothesis are just individual opinions and beliefs. They cannot be universal for all Ismailis.
I will again reiterate. If the Pirs can openly say that Ali=Allah (which was in the context of the conversion from Hindus to Ismailis). MHI should have more courage than the Pirs to say that he is Allah. Everyone is open to their interpretation and you can define "Mazhar" however you feel like, but you have to differentiate that MHI has never proclaimed that he is Allah.
We can really put an end to this debate if you can provide references to this claim besides in the context of the conversion from Hindus to Ismailis.
"Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw its great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh." - IMAM SMS
http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/1225/
This concept is today being applied to the IMAM. I hope we don't tread in the same direction making Ismailism lose its strength and meaning in the world.
Many on the forum have said that esoterically we believe IMAM = Allah. That is based on your individual interpretations and you are free to believe as you wish. Fundamentally, the concept has not be approved by the IMAM himself, and therefore it is not a universal Ismaili concept, it is only an interpretation that may be right or wrong, only Allah knows.
http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/1225/
This concept is today being applied to the IMAM. I hope we don't tread in the same direction making Ismailism lose its strength and meaning in the world.
Many on the forum have said that esoterically we believe IMAM = Allah. That is based on your individual interpretations and you are free to believe as you wish. Fundamentally, the concept has not be approved by the IMAM himself, and therefore it is not a universal Ismaili concept, it is only an interpretation that may be right or wrong, only Allah knows.
Just a comment about this assertion.sheri wrote:MHI has publicly said that he is the "Mazhar" of Allah. Unless, MHI does not publicly say I am Allah, all interpretations, conclusions, and hypothesis are just individual opinions and beliefs. They cannot be universal for all Ismailis.
I believe we Ismailies should know the ranks of Din (Hudood-e-Din), where the very top rank is always the Imam, and the other six ranks are Hujjat, Dai's, Muhaleem-e-Sadiq, the two Mahzoons, and lastly Mustajib.
Mustajib being the lowest in the rank, receives Tahl'im from the Mahzoons, and Mualem. and Mualeem from Dai's and Dai's from Hujjat [Pir]. But, Hujjat [Pir] receive Ta'yid from the Imam. Ta'yid is spiritual inspiration, and lower ranks are not yet capable of receiving Ta'yid, and must receive Tahl'im.
So, I don't think these concepts are just imagination, but teachings of Dai's and Pir's [Hujjats] who have received Tay'id and spiritual knowledge from the Imam of the Time. We must receive the teaching from them.
The fundamental basis of Ismailism is that each and every human being is equal. Ismailism emphasizes on the individual search and from which you are free to draw any inferences as you imagine. The IMAM is a special function and he is the only title holder as the "Mazhar" of God. The various historic titles were created to spread the message of Ismailism in a structured, effective and efficient manner. Those titles are worldly titles, given to individuals so they can carry out the specific tasks assigned to them in converting Hindus, carrying on the mission etc. Today, with technology, the IMAM does not need that kind of resources and so the title of Pir is discarded.
tret wrote:
Just a comment about this assertion.
I believe we Ismailies should know the ranks of Din (Hudood-e-Din), where the very top rank is always the Imam, and the other six ranks are Hujjat, Dai's, Muhaleem-e-Sadiq, the two Mahzoons, and lastly Mustajib.
Mustajib being the lowest in the rank, receives Tahl'im from the Mahzoons, and Mualem. and Mualeem from Dai's and Dai's from Hujjat [Pir]. But, Hujjat [Pir] receive Ta'yid from the Imam. Ta'yid is spiritual inspiration, and lower ranks are not yet capable of receiving Ta'yid, and must receive Tahl'im.
So, I don't think these concepts are just imagination, but teachings of Dai's and Pir's [Hujjats] who have received Tay'id and spiritual knowledge from the Imam of the Time. We must receive the teaching from them.
sheri wrote:The fundamental basis of Ismailism is that each and every human being is equal. Ismailism emphasizes on the individual search and from which you are free to draw any inferences as you imagine. The IMAM is a special function and he is the only title holder as the "Mazhar" of God. The various historic titles were created to spread the message of Ismailism in a structured, effective and efficient manner. Those titles are worldly titles, given to individuals so they can carry out the specific tasks assigned to them in converting Hindus, carrying on the mission etc. Today, with technology, the IMAM does not need that kind of resources and so the title of Pir is discarded.
tret wrote:
Just a comment about this assertion.
I believe we Ismailies should know the ranks of Din (Hudood-e-Din), where the very top rank is always the Imam, and the other six ranks are Hujjat, Dai's, Muhaleem-e-Sadiq, the two Mahzoons, and lastly Mustajib.
Mustajib being the lowest in the rank, receives Tahl'im from the Mahzoons, and Mualem. and Mualeem from Dai's and Dai's from Hujjat [Pir]. But, Hujjat [Pir] receive Ta'yid from the Imam. Ta'yid is spiritual inspiration, and lower ranks are not yet capable of receiving Ta'yid, and must receive Tahl'im.
So, I don't think these concepts are just imagination, but teachings of Dai's and Pir's [Hujjats] who have received Tay'id and spiritual knowledge from the Imam of the Time. We must receive the teaching from them.
At birth, yes; every individual is equal. However, at any stage of life, I am not sure even materialistically we can conclude that every individual is equal, let alone spiritually! Ismailism for sure emphasizes on soul searching and self-realization, as any other religions, but I am not sure if we can conclude whatever we wish! Say, if Mr. Right decides a God manifests in a cow that he uses his milk every day, can this be objectively stand corrected? Reality or knowledge of reality is to preceive things as they are.
During Da'wa, Pir's and Dai's used certain methodologies, which were effective, I get that!
For information, I have provided a link for "Ismailie Delegation Decoded", a fine article that explains the symbolism of our Tariqa in the Museum of Aga Khan which will soon insha-Allah open in Toronto this year. You can still find these concept (I am talking about the ranks of Din, in this case).
Essence of Din and Tariqa, I don't think is bound to time. These are our belief and values which we have since the era of Maula Ali.
a_27826 wrote:Can you name persons holding the other six ranks at present time ?tret wrote:I believe we Ismailies should know the ranks of Din (Hudood-e-Din), where the very top rank is always the Imam, and the other six ranks are Hujjat, Dai's, Muhaleem-e-Sadiq, the two Mahzoons, and lastly Mustajib.
That's a good question. The materials which are to our disposal, like the works of Dai's and Pir's, the Farameen, the Ginans and Qasidas, are basically the works of Dai's and Pir's, which we could equally benefit from. I personally don't, but I believe we could say the Al-wahizeen who gives wahz at JK could be, but that's my assumption. I would think if you reach out to JK, they could know?
Admin or any other members?
This is again an interpretation. Khalil should get this document approved by MHI or the right Jamati institutions and then it will be the official Ismaili meanings. Until that point in time, it will only remain as 1 persons' thought, imagination and interpretation.
Only IMAM's farmans' are the right interpretations. Khalil, Pirs, etc are just individuals who have thoughts and they are writing about it.
Only IMAM's farmans' are the right interpretations. Khalil, Pirs, etc are just individuals who have thoughts and they are writing about it.
sheri wrote:This is again an interpretation. Khalil should get this document approved by MHI or the right Jamati institutions and then it will be the official Ismaili meanings. Until that point in time, it will only remain as 1 persons' thought, imagination and interpretation.
Only IMAM's farmans' are the right interpretations. Khalil, Pirs, etc are just individuals who have thoughts and they are writing about it.
Have you read it?
This is your opinion, and I respect that.
Seen enough of Khalil's work to understand how he is trying to connect the dots and make sense of the historic clues and drive interpretations based on them.
I admire his work, but it is only an interpretation. Unless, it is codified in the Ismaili constitution or tariqah, until then it remains Khalil's personal thought.
I admire his work, but it is only an interpretation. Unless, it is codified in the Ismaili constitution or tariqah, until then it remains Khalil's personal thought.
sheri wrote:Seen enough of Khalil's work to understand how he is trying to connect the dots and make sense of the historic clues and drive interpretations based on them.
I admire his work, but it is only an interpretation. Unless, it is codified in the Ismaili constitution or tariqah, until then it remains Khalil's personal thought.
But can you find any of the interpretation which is not aligned to our school of thoughts? What I like about the article, is that he gave references on each element that he interprets, to a verse of Qur'an or a Farmaan of MHI or previous Imam, to back it up. So, if you find anything contradicting to your understanding I'd love to know.
You can provide all the sources you want. They are still interpretations of statements made that are complex for Khalil or anyone else to understand. That is the job of the IMAM to provide us with the right interpretations. Anything, Khalil, you, I or anyone else provides is just a possibility, it can be right, wrong or totally irrelevant.
sheri wrote:You can provide all the sources you want. They are still interpretations of statements made that are complex for Khalil or anyone else to understand. That is the job of the IMAM to provide us with the right interpretations. Anything, Khalil, you, I or anyone else provides is just a possibility, it can be right, wrong or totally irrelevant.
An example would be much appreciated.
Whatever the current IMAM says is black and white. It is the right interpretation. Anything said by any other than the current IMAM's sayings are either historic interpretations or that individual's personal opinion.
I just gave you mutiple interpretations on the 7th prophet thing you are referring to in the other forum. We can sit together and create a few more interpretations if you like. Which one will be correct only the IMAM can tell us. That is why we have an IMAM.
I just gave you mutiple interpretations on the 7th prophet thing you are referring to in the other forum. We can sit together and create a few more interpretations if you like. Which one will be correct only the IMAM can tell us. That is why we have an IMAM.
tret wrote:sheri wrote:You can provide all the sources you want. They are still interpretations of statements made that are complex for Khalil or anyone else to understand. That is the job of the IMAM to provide us with the right interpretations. Anything, Khalil, you, I or anyone else provides is just a possibility, it can be right, wrong or totally irrelevant.
An example would be much appreciated.