My question is about the Nahj al Balagah (peak of eloquence), which is a collection of saying by Hazrat Ali (a.s.) What do you make of the following:
O' ye peoples! Women are deficient in Faith, deficient in shares and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their Faith, it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period. As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is because the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is because of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of the evils of women. Be on your guard even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may not attract you to evils.
I cannot believe this is from Hazrat Ali!! It goes against everything I know is correct.
Does anyone know more?
Obviously not everything in the Nahjul Bhalaga is coming from Hazarat Ali. This works has been manipulated the same way you see that many hadiths have been forged. I
f you were to believe everything from Nahjul Bhalaga, surely you would certainely have problems believing the reference to the 12 Imams in that work. So surely this book is not the bible and we are not bound to become Ithnashri... unless we believe each word there is from Hazrat Ali
There is corruption in hadiths of Hazrat Muhammad {PBUH} similarly there is also corruption in Farmans of Hazrat Ali and as Ismaili we dont believe it because Farmans are clear about it.
Also there are much more strange hadiths like this..Last year I think I read some book about Status of Women written by a muslim there were many contradictions in it and such hadiths were quoted that if some non muslim would like to write any book on Anti Islam then that book can serve as reference book for that purpose.
Whats the reason, that women were never made prophets, imams, priest, or a leader (eg. bhudda) etc. in billions of years of history. Why do we believe that Eve distracted Adam? Is it God who made the cosmos as such, or is it all the work of Man's dominance of power (which is again the creation of God)? I wonder!
sheri wrote:Whats the reason, that women were never made prophets, imams, priest, or a leader (eg. bhudda) etc. in billions of years of history. Why do we believe that Eve distracted Adam? Is it God who made the cosmos as such, or is it all the work of Man's dominance of power (which is again the creation of God)? I wonder!
There were woman prophets - Ruth in the Bible - As muslims we give reverence to the wife of Firaun, Mary the mother of christ, Pir Salamat Miriam Khatun was a female pir.....
Corbin's book "Cyclical time and Ismailian Gnosis" talks about the Celestial Mary and the Celestial Hazrat Bibi Fatima as being
(wo)manifestations of the same Essence.
sheri wrote:Whats the reason, that women were never made prophets, imams, priest, or a leader (eg. bhudda) etc. in billions of years of history. Why do we believe that Eve distracted Adam? Is it God who made the cosmos as such, or is it all the work of Man's dominance of power (which is again the creation of God)? I wonder!
There were woman prophets - Ruth in the Bible - As muslims we give reverence to the wife of Firaun, Mary the mother of christ, Pir Salamat Miriam Khatun was a female pir.....
I am not exactly sure what you mean by that.and it is acceptable that there were some holy womens....but they did'nt create religions, and I think its more of a respect we give to them for being the wife or mother of the Chosen One(who has been male in every case). The Pir example might be an exception. And also, the number of women you can name is not even propotional to the number of Men you can name.
IN MY OPINION, I think in our jamat it is obvious that M & K Sahebs lead the jamat......not M& K Sahebas.
I think men and women both have a DIFFERENT but equally important role to play, which is not understood by society, instead it is argued that women can do and should do whatever the man is doing. In my view, there are things which women can do better than men, and then there are things which men can do better than women, and thats why when they work together(combine - get married) they together are complete and can do anything. Without either, one cannot be complete.
The reason why, I think there were no woman prophets is because socity simply was not ready to accept female leaders. The problem lay with the people, not with the women.
I think that both of you are correct. Studies from evolutionary biology reveal that there are real differences in the way men and women's brains are hard-wired.
When early man was a hunter-gatherer, he went out hunting for food and this required him to have good spatial-reasoning skills in order to succesfully corner a prey and kill it for food. Modern science has found that the right side of the brain is used for this activity and that man is superior to women in this ability. Even today, the spatial reasoning skills of men seem to be more developed that that of women.
Likewise, in women, there are traits that occur on the left side of the brain that are more well-developed in women than men. It is generally well-known that in high school and even early university, women outperform men academically by a long shot. At the school that my children go to, females outperform males 80 to 20 percent academically. These traits generally begin to equalize later in university.
Having said that, I also think that socialization among humanity tended to favour men over women when it came to leadership roles. The fact that men were the doers in the hunter-gathering sense may also have had something to do with it.
In the end I think that it is one of the mysteries of creation but it is also evident that men and women's roles do complement each other. The definitive answer, I think, can only come if you invoke Ali, who is, after all, the revealer of divine mysteries.
sheri wrote:
I am not exactly sure what you mean by that.and it is acceptable that there were some holy womens....but they did'nt create religions, and I think its more of a respect we give to them for being the wife or mother of the Chosen One(who has been male in every case). The Pir example might be an exception. And also, the number of women you can name is not even propotional to the number of Men you can name.
IN MY OPINION, I think in our jamat it is obvious that M & K Sahebs lead the jamat......not M& K Sahebas.
Well, here is something to think about:
1) What makes you think GOD is not a female or Woman?
2) Quran also tells us that at the Day of Judgment [even prophets] will be called by their Mother's Name.
3) What about we have been thought to think about God’s Love and mercy referring to the mother’s love for her child and the degree of love that God has for It’s creations.
4) It is the Prophet’s saying that the paradise is under one’s mother’s feet.
5) How about [as the saying goes] Mother Nature
6) Or mother Earth
7) There is no [Man]kind with out Eve and if you like I can start to count down from there on?
sheri wrote:
I am not exactly sure what you mean by that.and it is acceptable that there were some holy womens....but they did'nt create religions, and I think its more of a respect we give to them for being the wife or mother of the Chosen One(who has been male in every case). The Pir example might be an exception. And also, the number of women you can name is not even propotional to the number of Men you can name.
IN MY OPINION, I think in our jamat it is obvious that M & K Sahebs lead the jamat......not M& K Sahebas.
Well, here is something to think about:
1) What makes you think GOD is not a female or Woman?
2) Quran also tells us that at the Day of Judgment [even prophets] will be called by their Mother's Name.
3) What about we have been thought to think about God’s Love and mercy referring to the mother’s love for her child and the degree of love that God has for It’s creations.
4) It is the Prophet’s saying that the paradise is under one’s mother’s feet.
5) How about [as the saying goes] Mother Nature
6) Or mother Earth
7) There is no [Man]kind with out Eve and if you like I can start to count down from there on?
1) God is always reffered to as He in all religions.
2) Provide Reference
3) Father's love is that of the provider.
4) Thats to respect mothers
5) Nothing mentioned about such in any religion.
6) Eve came from Adam, not the other way around.
Even in the ginans the they refer to submitting themselves to GOD or Imam as his wife or refer themselves as women. I can't remember which ones they are. Such reference to women does symbolize something.
It is only by convention that God is referred to as He and other literature, eg, ginans that refer to a husband and wife are purely metaphorical and designed to use a literary tool to promote a better understanding of a key religious concept.
The early Ismailis were so particular about descriptions for God that they had to invent a new arabic term just to furnish a semantic concept for this One Absolutely Transcendent Reality. The arabic term 'Mubdi', which means'Originator' was coined for this purpose and was not used for any other purpose than this.
Philosophers and Cosmologists, both Ismaili and non-Ismaili, eg, the Mutazilites, went head to head in supreme intellectual fashion trying to use language and create explanations for God that did not violate the central Islamic concept of Tawhid(Oneness of God).
Al-Sijistani, Al-Nasafi, Al-Kirmani, Ibn Sina, Nasir Khusraw and Alfarabi were some of these intellectuals who argued their points of view, sometimes fiercely disagreeing with one another and writing entire books to describe their dissenting opinions. Nasir Khusraw was a key supporter of Al-Sijistani's viewpoint as well as adding some of his own ideas and, in the passage of time, later Ismailis(and obviously their Imams) chose to follow their views for the most part.
'He' or 'She' are anthropomorphic terms and refer to the different genders in creation. The Absolutely Transcendent Allah is beyond anything to do with creation. He is beyond being and non-being. Even that was not enough, said Al-Sijistani, who then went on to invoke the famous 'double negative'. He said that, not only was God beyond being and non-being, He was also not beyond being and non-being.
In my last post, one key sentence did not appear as I wrote it. It relates to the 'via negativa' or 'double negative' that Al-Sijistani formulated in his description of the nature of God.
The sentence should read: "He said that, not only was God beyond being and non-being, He was also not beyond being and non-being. In addition, He was also not not beyond being and non-being"(not not referring to the double negative).
nashvelshi wrote:It is only by convention that God is referred to as He and other literature, eg, ginans that refer to a husband and wife are purely metaphorical and designed to use a literary tool to promote a better understanding of a key religious concept.
The early Ismailis were so particular about descriptions for God that they had to invent a new arabic term just to furnish a semantic concept for this One Absolutely Transcendent Reality. The arabic term 'Mubdi', which means'Originator' was coined for this purpose and was not used for any other purpose than this.
Philosophers and Cosmologists, both Ismaili and non-Ismaili, eg, the Mutazilites, went head to head in supreme intellectual fashion trying to use language and create explanations for God that did not violate the central Islamic concept of Tawhid(Oneness of God).
Al-Sijistani, Al-Nasafi, Al-Kirmani, Ibn Sina, Nasir Khusraw and Alfarabi were some of these intellectuals who argued their points of view, sometimes fiercely disagreeing with one another and writing entire books to describe their dissenting opinions. Nasir Khusraw was a key supporter of Al-Sijistani's viewpoint as well as adding some of his own ideas and, in the passage of time, later Ismailis(and obviously their Imams) chose to follow their views for the most part.
'He' or 'She' are anthropomorphic terms and refer to the different genders in creation. The Absolutely Transcendent Allah is beyond anything to do with creation. He is beyond being and non-being. Even that was not enough, said Al-Sijistani, who then went on to invoke the famous 'double negative'. He said that, not only was God beyond being and non-being, He was also not beyond being and non-being.
Try to wrap your mind around that!
I don't think there is anyone who thinks GOD is a HE and neither do I. I agree totally with what you just said and I dont think anyone will argue to that, but metaphorically there has to be a reason for GOD being referred to as HE. It more relates to the roles of MAN on Women. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
5. The ocean of God's secret is so vast and infinite that no one can understand it.
6. The only way to understand it is to immerse yourself in its depth and and lose yourself in its love
HE HAS NO COLOUR NOR ANY FORM:
HE HAS NO NAME NOR AN ABODE:
SO SECRET IS HE AND YET MILLIONS WORSHIP HIM.
I see what you are saying. Other than the reasons I speculated about, I cannot think of any others. Perhaps someone else may have some other ideas.
star_munir,
That is a very apt description from the well-known ginan you mention. The Pir-Ginanic tradition is very sufi-oriented where terms like murid, murshid, love and essence are employed.
The earlier Ismaili tradition is more philosophically-oriented where terms like mubdi, intellect, soul, tayyid, tarkib, talif and tawil are used. Sufism was not yet well established at this time.
O' ye peoples! Women are deficient in Faith, deficient in shares and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their Faith, it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period. As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is because the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is because of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of the evils of women. Be on your guard even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may not attract you to evils.
post reply
I dont believe that this is corrupted in any way , coz there another saying of imam ali as on woman which describes woman as scorpion with a sweet grip , todays society is run by left dominant brain which basically woman are left dominant and men are more right dominant , science has proven that left dominant people think past and present while right dominant people are on present and future , the fact that imam ali as says that the woman are defiicient in faith is that fact the left brain dominant people act on logic rather than emotion , left and right brain is described is as follows ,1. Verbal 1. Visual
2. Responds to word meaning 2. Responds to tone of voice
3. Sequential 3. Random
4. Processes information linearly 4. Processes information in varied order
5. Responds to logic 5. Responds to emotion
6. Plans ahead 6. Impulsive
7. Recalls people's names 7. Recalls people's faces
8. Speaks with few gestures 8. Gestures when speaking
9. Punctual 9. Less punctual
10. Prefers formal study design 10. Prefers sound/music background while studying
11. Prefers bright lights while studying 11. Prefers frequent mobility while studing ,
Our creator the most high the supreme the exalted created first adam , which is male and from adam made its mate hawa or eve , Right brain dominants are people of religion , philiosophy while on the other hand the left brain is contrary to it , Science has proven that socially woman are 10 time more smarter than men , but women miss when it comes to leadership and stress while on the other hand man excels in this field , it is not the problem of woman that they are defeiceint in certain fields , man too is defeciceint in certain fields , The creator has made the man superior to the woman , This statement is testified many times in the quran , many hadith testify this as well , woman should always listen to man , but this dosent mean that the woman has to respect every kind of men , there are men who are right and fear allah subhantallah and while some men run around their desires , Our creator the most high the supreme reminds every man to respect woman , the following has been proven by science
LEFT BRAIN FUNCTIONS mostly women
uses logic
detail oriented
facts rule
words and language
present and past
math and science
can comprehend
knowing
acknowledges
order/pattern perception
knows object name
reality based
forms strategies
practical
safe
RIGHT BRAIN FUNCTIONS mostly men
uses feeling
"big picture" oriented
imagination rules
symbols and images
present and future
philosophy & religion
can "get it" (i.e. meaning)
believes
appreciates
spatial perception
knows object function
fantasy based
presents possibilities
impetuous
risk taking
The women in the quran
To know the views of Islam on woman, we should see what the Qur'an says about her innate character. Other religions also have referred to this question, but it is the Qur'an alone which in a number of verses expressly says that woman has been created of the species of man, and both man and woman have the same innate character. While referring to Adam it says: He (Allah) made all of you from one being, and from that being He made its mate. (Surah an-Nisa, 4 : 1)
With regard to mankind in general, it says: He made your mate from among you. (Surah an-Nisa, Surah Ali Imran and Surah Rum).
Unlike some other religious books, there is no mention in the Qur'an that woman has been created of some inferior material, or that she has any parasitic and leftist aspect. Islam does not support the notion of the people who suppose that the spouse of Adam was created of his left ribs. Islam has no contemptuous view of woman in regard to her nature and innate character.
There is another contemptuous theory which was current in the past, and has left some undesirable traces in the world literature. According to it, woman is the cause of all sins. Her very existence stimulates evil. Woman is a little devil. It is said that woman has had a hand in every sin and every offence committed by man. Men themselves are free from sin; it is the women who drag them to it. It is also said that the Devil cannot have direct access to men. It is through women that he lures them. He prompts woman with wicked suggestions, and woman in turn prompts man. Adam was thrown out of Paradise because of a woman. The Devil misled Eve, and it was Eve who misled Adam.
The Qur'an has narrated the story of Paradise, but it says nowhere that the Devil or the Serpent misled Eve and Eve misled Adam. It neither blames Eve nor exonerates her.
The Qur'an says: We said to Adam: 'Take residence in Paradise.' both you and your Spouse, and eat the fruits thereof, freely wherever you wish and go not near that tree else you become wrongdoers. (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:35). It puts the pro. nouns in the dual form. It also says: Then the Satan made a suggestion to them (both). Then he led them (both) on with guile. He swore to them (both): I am a sincere adviser to you (both). Surah al-A'raf, (7 : 20 - 21)
Thus the Qur'an vehemently opposed the false notion which was current after the time of its revelation, and the echoes of which still resound in various parts of the world, It absolved woman from the charge that she was the prompter of sin, and herself a little devil.
Another contemptuous theory which has existed concerns woman's spiritual position. It was asserted that woman could not enter Paradise. She could not cover the spiritual and divine stages. She could not reach such a stage of proximity to God as man could. But the Qur'an, in a number of passages, has expressly said that the reward of the Hereafter and the proximity to Allah are not linked with sex. They depend on faith and deeds, and there is no difference between man and woman in this respect. In the Qur'an, side by side with every great and saintly man, a great and saintly woman has been mentioned. It has glorified the wives of Adam and Abraham and the mothers of Moses and Jesus. If it has mentioned the wives of Noah and Lot as unworthy of their husbands, it has not ignored the wife of the Pharaoh, and has mentioned her as a great woman who was in the hands of a wicked man. The Qur'an in its stories has maintained a sort of balance. Its heroes are both men and women.
While referring to the mother of Moses, the Qur'an says:
We made Our Will known to Musa's mother saying.' Put him in a box and throw it into the river. The waves shall cast him on to the bank. . . (Surah Taha, 20 : 39).
About the mother of Jesus, it says that she had attained such a high spiritual position that the angels used to talk to her while she was worshipping in the Sanctuary. She used to receive eatables from supernatural sources. Her sublime spiritual position caused bewilderment even to Zachariah, the Prophet of that period.
There have been many eminent and saintly women in the history of Islam. Few men can attain the high position of Khadija, the beloved wife of the Holy Prophet, and no man, except the Holy Prophet and Ali (P) can match with Zahra, the beloved daughter of the Holy Prophet. She holds a position superior to that of even her sons, who are Imams, and to that of the Prophets, other than the last one. Islam does not discriminate between man and woman in the matter of the 'journey towards Allah', but it regards man more suitable for shouldering the responsibility of Prophethood, which can be described as a 'return journey from Allah' to the people.
Another contemptuous theory that exists about woman is related to renunciation and celibacy. Certain religions regard sexual relations as a dirty thing. According to the belief of their followers, only those can attain higher levels of spiritual life who pass their whole life in celibacy. A well-known world religious leader says: "Cut down the tree of marriage with the axe of virginity." Such religious leaders tolerate marriage only as a lesser evil. In other words, they maintain that as most of the people are unable to lead a life of celibacy, and there is an apprehension that they will be unable to control themselves, and so will become involved in illicit relations with a number of women, it is better that they marry so that they do not come into contact with more than one woman. These gentlemen advocate renunciation and celibacy because they look upon the fair sex with suspicion. They consider love for woman to be a great moral evil.
Islam is severely opposed to this absurdity. It reckons marriage as sacred and celibacy as dirty. To like woman has been described by Islam as a part of a prophetic character. The Holy Prophet has said: "I am interested in three things: perfume, woman and prayer".
Bertrand Russell says: "All religions other than Islam look at sexual relations with a pinch of suspicion. Islam, with an eye to social interest, has regulated and restricted them, but has not regarded them as dirty"
Another contemptuous theory with regard to woman, which has existed, is that woman has been created for the benefit of man.
Islam does not say any such thing. It has stated the purpose of Creation in clear terms. It expressly says that the earth, the heavens, the air, the clouds, the plants and the animals, all have been created for the sake of mankind. It does not say that woman has been created for the sake of man. According to it, both man and woman have been created for the sake of each other. The Qur'an says: They (women) are raiment (comfort, embellishment and protection) for you, and you (men) are raiment for them. (Surah al-Baqarah: 2 : 187).
Had the Qur'an stated that woman was a mere appendage of man, and was created for his sake, that view would certainly have been reflecte6 in the Islamic laws, but the Qur'an has expressed no such view. It does not explain Creation that way. It does not consider woman a mere appendage to man. That is why this view is not reflected in Islamic laws.
Another contemptuous theory about woman, which previously existed, is that woman is an inescapable evil. In the olden days, many people held her in great contempt and looked upon her as a source of misfortune and all sorts of trouble. In contrast, the Qur'an has emphasised that woman is a blessing for man and a source of his comfort and relief.
According to another contemptuous theory, little significance was attached to the role of woman in childbearing. Pre- Islamic Arabs and some other communities regarded woman just as a receptacle for keeping and developing the seed of man. The Qur'an in several of its passages has said, We have created you from a man and a woman. The same idea has been deduced from some other verses by the commentators of the Qur'an. Thus Islam has put an end to that wrong way of thinking.
It is clear from the above that Islam holds no contemptuous view of woman.
Now the time has come to see why there is a dissimilarity between the rights of man and woman.
One can come to conclusion that woman and man are equal in their rights but man excels in certain fields and woman in other ones ,
One has to really put alot of time to really decode sayings of imam ali as , imam ali as sayings are like the farmans of our mhi , it really takes time and higher intellect to fully undrestand the sayings of the infallible imam ali as , wali of allah , Imam ali as has authorithy on ismailis and allah the most high the supreme has authorithy on ali as .
Only and only the physical body has sex but not he soul , the soul of man dosent differ that of woman but physically they differ , Man excelling in one field and the woman in other , But it is also the truth the most high the supreme allah subhanatallah gave man a higher postion physically than that of wowan.
sheri wrote:I think men and women both have a DIFFERENT but equally important role to play, which is not understood by society, instead it is argued that women can do and should do whatever the man is doing. In my view, there are things which women can do better than men, and then there are things which men can do better than women, and thats why when they work together(combine - get married) they together are complete and can do anything. Without either, one cannot be complete.
Well said! I believe Islam emphasizes equity rather than equality, in that men and women each have different roles to play and that one does not need the exact same responsibilties as the other, otherwise things would be chaotic and many things ignored in life. Why should the benchmark for a woman to be considered independent be a man?
and we are not bound to become Ithnashri... unless we believe each word there is from Hazrat Ali 