Ismaili's not considered Muslims?

[Afi]

As a parent of 2 teenagers I know that when I am told by them that they are going to JK (sometimes between classes) my reaction is great-not worrying to ask what are you wearing? To get them to come to JK is a challenge and I know talking to a lot of other parents of teens we are not alone who feel that way, No disrespect to people who feel that jeans or causual type of clothes should not be worn in JK.

[star_munir]

Ya Ali Madad Azamour
As you wrote : I am not surprised by your Question. Most of us Islamili are pretty open minded people and they dont see any thing wrong with it. Unless they look at it with the context in mind that im trying to narrate. Cause cowboys started it, as they used to work in fields with cows and horses. Jeans are not washed as often as trousers. They have a dirty, carefree, rough and tought image associated with them. Not something i would advice for jamat khana.

I agree with you know. Thanks for information

As you wrote:I guess some one may ask Why Ismailis not to sucide terror attacks although some muslims do it...? "
On suicide attacks we can have a whole seperated discussion. ill have to take you back to period of Hassasins and Almaut.

I know the history of Fidais and Almaut period. What I mean to wrote was about terrorist attacks in name of Jehad some times questions are asked in this manner that if this practice is in non Ismailis then why it is not among Ismailis irrepective of whether it is good or bad.

[curious2]

As a parent of 2 teenagers I know that when I am told by them that they are going to JK (sometimes between classes) my reaction is great-not worrying to ask what are you wearing? To get them to come to JK is a challenge and I know talking to a lot of other parents of teens we are not alone who feel that way, No disrespect to people who feel that jeans or causual type of clothes should not be worn in JK.

Okay, I guess I'm in agreement with Azamour here on his jeans comments. I'm also dropping my hijab stand as I think you guys are not getting my point. Hijab could very well be a symbol of slavery with its known history but I fail to understand how a simple piece of cloth worn by choice could be so dangerous that it is strictly forbiden? I don't understand but I digress.

I do have one question to ask for Afi. I completely understand where you're coming from, and as a parent who will be going through this same issue myself in few years, I wonder why is it so difficult to teach children the proper etiquettes of certain place? I see that the lack of school uniforms in Western countries may have something to do with it but if they can learn on their own on what to wear in Proms etc, then why is it so difficult for them to learn what to wear in the house of prayers? Even kids from the West know how to dress when attending Church and Synagogue, so why not us? Just wondering. And it is not just jeans that violates the environment, it is the lack of proper dressing that changes the environment altogether.

[Afi]

[I do have one question to ask for Afi. I completely understand where you're coming from, and as a parent who will be going through this same issue myself in few years]
YAM
I found that all the rules were ok until my kids started to go to University,
the schedules and the other activities that are part of growing up has made it very difficult for them to come to JK every Friday, so when we tried to get them to come they were either in school, studying for mid terms or busy with activities with other students etc, they find it easier to say their prayers at school or at home when they are studying. The long announcements that are sometimes part of Fridays dont help either. (My daughter went to a private school and had no issues with uniforms) I think that is why HI said what he said about prayers and the rememberance of Allah in our western society. If they have time than there is no problems them "dressing up" but if we insist that they come to JK every friday than I find that we as parents have to be a little flexible as well.


[/quote]

[star_munir]

I agree with Afi. The most important thing is that they are comming to JK.
I agree with azamour that Jeans are not washed as often as trousers. They have a dirty, carefree, rough image associated with them
But as Afi wrote in that case I dont think it is inappropriate to wear jeans.
Also as Azamour wrote :". It used to be our tradition to cover our head while in Jamat khana. Atleast women used to have chadar or dupatta to cover thair hair while praying."

Parsis in their temple cover thier head while praying. Also I have seen most of the time Non Ismaili Muslim men and women covering head while reciting Namaz.
But in Ismailism is it necessary to cover head while praying Dua??
Is there any Farman/Ginan etc to cover head when come in Jamat Khana.
As among dresses as per I know one must not wear any dress of black colour, veil i.e, burkha and the dress must be clean and simple.
Also I have seen some times among children, some girls who wear duppatta, all the time during Dua try to adjust duppatta on head so it may not fall down. So all the attention of a kid goes adjusting duppatta during Dua. I can understand when you wrote about it you not meant for small kids but I am just telling it.
As curious 2 wrote:Hijab could very well be a symbol of slavery with its known history but I fail to understand how a simple piece of cloth worn by choice could be so dangerous that it is strictly forbiden?
It is forbidden because it is Farman of Imam. Thats the reason for Ismailis not to wear it. And what are disadvantages..you may refer to Speech Of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah in Aligarh from history book Noorum Mubin.

[ShamsB]

As a parent of 2 teenagers I know that when I am told by them that they are going to JK (sometimes between classes) my reaction is great-not worrying to ask what are you wearing? To get them to come to JK is a challenge and I know talking to a lot of other parents of teens we are not alone who feel that way, No disrespect to people who feel that jeans or causual type of clothes should not be worn in JK.

Okay, I guess I'm in agreement with Azamour here on his jeans comments. I'm also dropping my hijab stand as I think you guys are not getting my point. Hijab could very well be a symbol of slavery with its known history but I fail to understand how a simple piece of cloth worn by choice could be so dangerous that it is strictly forbiden? I don't understand but I digress.

I do have one question to ask for Afi. I completely understand where you're coming from, and as a parent who will be going through this same issue myself in few years, I wonder why is it so difficult to teach children the proper etiquettes of certain place? I see that the lack of school uniforms in Western countries may have something to do with it but if they can learn on their own on what to wear in Proms etc, then why is it so difficult for them to learn what to wear in the house of prayers? Even kids from the West know how to dress when attending Church and Synagogue, so why not us? Just wondering. And it is not just jeans that violates the environment, it is the lack of proper dressing that changes the environment altogether.

Please read Unnal Haq's post in regards to historical significance of Hijab and Burqa, which were originally used to keep sand and heat away from people and became a religous symbol...same with facing Kaa'ba...people probably faced it when it had idols in it...and the prophet thought it woud have a unifying effect...look at Hajj, that was also in place prior to Islam...and it was continued to unify the warring factions/tribes in Saudi Arabia..
once again..you want to face Kaa'ba go for it...makes no difference to me where i face.

Shams

[faisall667]

And as I have mentioned before, what Imam says in public is different from what he says to his murids.

I must say, I disagree with you. Hazir Imam knows that his murids are listening, reading, or watching to what he says to the public. I don't think he would contradict himself, but rather what he says in farman, he would probably modify what he wanted to say.

Faisal

[faisall667]

But I dont agree with you on following point:" We are seeing younger generations in the name of batini religion are allowed to wear pretty much whatever they want to jamat khana. I think on times we Ismaili disrespect our faith and our Jamat khana more than any other religion in the world. I see young girls and boys coming to JK with tight jeans. Women with hair all open. It used to be our tradition to cover our head while in Jamat khana. Atleast women used to have chadar or dupatta to cover thair hair while praying."

Whats wrong if girl or boy comes in jeans or pant shirt. You may not feel it modest but for those who live in west it is their dressand I dont think it is bad to wear western dresses

I don't think the emphasis is on wearing pant shirt and jeans. The emphasis is TIGHT. Have you gone to Jamat Khana and seen girls who wear t-shirts that a two year old child would wear? I have. Have you seen girls and women wear ghagra choli that show that midriff? I have. What the heck is that? You are in Jamat Khana, the house of your lord and you dress like that? This kind of clothing has nothing to do with the West culture.

Christians who go to church have you seen them? Everyone of them is dressed up. Boys usually wear a dress shirt tucked into dress pants. Men usually wear suit and tie. Women and girls wear dresses and skirts that are below or right at their knees. That my friend, is called respect, I don't see any of that in Jamat Khana when people are wearing what i described above. It has become a fashion show rather than a holy place to pray.

If any member of the council reads this I would like to say, that you guys need to have a mandatory dress code. Yes it is a bit harsh but if your children get off course don't you set the rules? I am not a father yet, but when I become one I surely plan to set rules. So council members please think about this.

Faisal

[azamour]

star_munir wrote:
"But in Ismailism is it necessary to cover head while praying Dua??
Is there any Farman/Ginan etc to cover head when come in Jamat Khana."

My Question to you is
Is there a Farman/Ginan etc that tell you not to wear shoes inside jamat khana?. Or to put clothes on while coming to jamat khana?
some times we just use common sense. Sometimes we just refer to our cultural values.

There are plenty of farmans about not forgetting your culture and traditions while we are in western countries. and when i say women or man should cover their head during prayers or atleast the ones that are leading the prayers, its not something we enforece, instead its something we educated jamat with and let them make choice for themselves.

U see for you and me and many others who are either first generation or second in west, we know our parents or grandparents used to practice certain things(like dupatta during prayers) but for generations ahead all they would know is what we tell them. So why not to give them all of our Ismaili traditions when they are little, and let them make choice for themselves when they have grown older, just like we did.

You said that dupatta could be distracting.
So are the open hair. Atleast dupatta distracts just the person wearing it while Open hair could be distracting for every one else around her and deteriorates the enviornment in jamatkhana over all. I find it very distracting when some young 18year old girl, wearing tight jeans walks up to the podium like a cat walk, for annoucements and entire time she is playing with her hairs. Some times it feels like we are watching T.V rather than being in jamat khana.
And again i dont think we should look down on any body who dosent wear dupatta or wears jeans. I think its the parents and the teachers that should take the responsibility for not giving the teenagers the right guidance.

[azamour]

Afi wrote
"I found that all the rules were ok until my kids started to go to University,..."

Thats a very common problem for parents and i understand the challenge parents face of raising teens in west. I think best time to develope certain practices and habits are when we are between 5-10years old. I know when i was young my mother used to make me pray on Bad before falling asleep. God bless her for that cause thats one of those things i can never forget. Even when im out till 2 in morning with my friends or even i came home drunk i would pray before falling asleep. it has became part of my subconsicious i think. And it has helped me stay corrected for most part as i always rememberd who i really am.
Point im trying to make is, make sure parents and teacher point out to kids that certain things should not be worn in Jamat khana, Preparation for going to jamat khana should be made their practice from young age. And also tell them that if and only if it will cause you to miss the prayers and you will be late, only then you should prefer doing the prayers in whatever you were wearing.
Now for University students it should be even more easier for you to make your point as long as you understand you cant boss them around always. Instead they will pay attention to logic more than any thing else. I think they will understand if you tell them reasons why not to dress certain ways. if you tell them they are role models to younger kids in family and jamat.

[azamour]

star_munir wrote:
"As curious 2 wrote:Hijab could very well be a symbol of slavery with its known history but I fail to understand how a simple piece of cloth worn by choice could be so dangerous that it is strictly forbiden?
It is forbidden because it is Farman of Imam. Thats the reason for Ismailis not to wear it. And what are disadvantages..you may refer to Speech Of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah in Aligarh from history book Noorum Mubin."


Hijab was introduced around 1400 years ago as a way to correct the arabian society. Where women were so much disrespected that parent burried there young girls alive. Hijab was brought to bring respect back to women. So that not only man would respect them but also women will respect them selves. Women and man did not value virtue and piousness at all. That was one reason concept of Virgins in heaven was introduced. So that women would think that its good to be virgin and man will have value for virgin women( as they were rare).

Imama SMS Aga Khan orderd discontinuation of Hijab for Ismailis to correct Muslims in very early 20th century. Purpose was to bring women equal to Man and educating them as that will affect the education of future generations. and strengthen our economic and social situations in IndoPak. And im sure he had many other reason.
When Imam first suggested education of women and discontinuation of Hijab in Muslim league in 1st decade of 20th century he was opposed by most muslim leaders of that times. It took them years to understad as Hijab is optional in Pakistan And finally women are being educated pretty much most part of the country.
But now in 21st century while we are living in west, if an educated, working women one day decides to wear Hijab cause man and women here are not any different then the times of Prophet muhammad P.B.U.H. I really dont think there is any thing wrong with it.

[aleem]

This is what i found a perception of ismaili pratices interupted in a different way.sorry if this offends anyone

The Aga Khani
Farzana Versey
April 26, 2002


She was a Farzana too. Beneath the grey pinafore that was our school uniform, she wore a white shalwaar and her dupatta was neatly pinned to her shoulders. My hemlines would have to be ripped open on inspection days and the stray threads would tickle my knees. Farzana was a Muslim. And I?

It was then that I realised we were different. What appears as confusion today stems from this. Just the other day I was told that my link with the religion is weak. We are the cowards allowing ourselves to be butchered.

When you are born into a community that seems to be an unholy alliance between several streams of thought, you feel like a leper clapping his hands in glee but unable to produce any sound.

Being an Ismaili has meant never being sure whether you are right or wrong, coming or going or already gone. That the head of this 20 million strong community is not cast in the mould of a typical godman does not seem to worry his devotees one bit. Prince Karim Aga Khan remains the god-head anointed in 1957 in preference to his flamboyant father. It is a small community, two per cent of the world’s Musl

im population, but it is spread across the world.

A few months ago, I accompanied my mother to the old Ismaili mosque in which there is a small shrine of Hazrat Abbas. Aware of my lack of interest, she asked me to just stand near the strings of flowers. I do not know how and why it happened, but there I was shamelessly weeping, clutching to a wilting red rose. Off the marble platform there was this ‘well’, where people would fill sweetened milk sprinkled with almonds; memories came flooding back. Of walking down the street especially for the sticky toffee. Of stopping at the ittarwalla’s shop and being handed a plastic rose with a cotton ball soaked in the incense; I hated the scent, but loved the kitschy gulab. Of waiting as the smoke rose from the coals where skewers of kebabs were being readied for us to take home. Now I wanted none of this. My moist eyes told me I did not know what I wanted.

Whatever ties I had with the community were snapped early in adolescence, less as a protest and more due to the desire to fulfill my 15-year-old yearnings. Religion does take up a lot of time. But distance makes you question. How can ‘god’ own an island and race-horses? Why has he, who talks of cohesiveness, married outside? Why does he stay away from his people, most of who live in the Third World? If he is an Imam, as Ismailis believe, and a man of god, why do the believers insist on clothing him in royal raiments and refer to him rather quaintly as His Highness Ya Noor Maulana Shah Karim Haazar Imam?

Yet today if the Ismailis can walk with their heads held high it is not so much because of what they are but because of who they owe allegiance to. Belonging to the Aga Khan, so to speak, has tremendous snob value. How many people can claim to be followers of a man based in Chantilly near Paris, who has a British passport, is a Harvard graduate, owns and breeds 600 horses, has investments in a luxury chain of hotels, a newspaper publishing empire, a Mediterranean airline and a tourist resort? How does it feel to be a part of a community where the spiritual head issues a firman, no less, that the followers’ behaviour, even in superficial matters, must be in keeping with the country they live in? Do in Rome as the Romans do. So, one often got an eyeful of fat, middle-aged Africa-returned relatives in swirling skirts attending the prayers while on a visit here.

What was it like being an indifferent believer in those days? To be honest, it was fun. There was pride in the fact that you rarely saw an Aga Khani beggar – there were scholarships, free education, developmental programmes, open to everyone.

A visit to the jamaat khaana (the local mosque) was a social event, with men and women often sharing the same space on two sides of the hall; it was a social event, especially on chaand raat every month. Gathered around would be perfumed women in their best chiffons, clutching fancy purses from which they would remove fancier prayer beads with tassels; the men would be dressed quite dandily, sometimes even tossing on a jacket, the fur caps they carried with them put on at a rakish angle.

The prayers themselves were eclectic – ranging from the dua in Arabic to the tasbeeh, where the faithful beseeched HH to shower blessings so that the country prospered and all calamities were averted. There was a lot of getting up and sitting down to be done, which was a true test of devotion. And when you finally got to plonk down, there was s small dua during which, and you must believe me, we took the hand of the person nearest us in a light handshake and said, “Shah jo deedar”. The idea being that we saw him in each other’s eyes.

A real deedar is something else. To soak in a glimpse of the divine presence the devotees start planning days ahead. Most big jamaat khaanas are in the smaller mohallas in Bombay, so security would be a problem. But the Ismaili community trains scouts and guides. The one deedar I attended was most revealing. People did take the trouble to be dressed and waited for hours to find a strategic place. But the conversation was pure gossip – household woes, marriages to be fixed.

Till the Aga Khan walked in along the red carpet laid out for him, followed by his then wife, Begum Salima, the former Lady Sarah, looking serene, dressed in a mauve saree, her feet unshod like the rest of us. There was a hush, some tears, some smiles; after he had passed the length there was an audible intake of breath. Tidbits were exchanged about how his face shone, about the unseen halo. After minutes it was all over and people rushed to the canteen, which is as much an integral part of the jamaat khaana as the prayer hall.

For an outsider this might sound nothing even remotely like a religion. The Ismaili seems to in fact blaspheme the very presence he deifies. How else can you explain all those shoe shops where the Aga Khan’s photograph is displayed, jostling for space among calf-skin boots and suede shoes? I find it dichotomous, this complete submission to a living person and yet the need to embellish one’s material lives. The closest analogy I can think of is the divine right of kings. For, isn’t it true that Islam does not permit idolatry?

But then the Ismaili is hardly Islamic. Converted generations ago, the influences are varied. There was a time when the jamaat khaana would be lit up during Diwali, a cake would be cut for Christmas and even the Parsi Navroze was celebrated with haldi-covered eggs. Even today the Aga Khan’s birthday is celebrated the way Navratri is, with dandiya raas, including the disco version. Not many Ismailis offer the namaaz on a regular basis, though the Aga Khan himself does. I suppose the catholicity of his beliefs makes the devotees supra-Islamic.

There is the Christian element too. Every jamaat khaana has a mukhi-mukhiyani team, usually a married couple, whose only qualification is that they must be believers willing to give their time. They could be given to boogying every Saturday night; that does not lower their status. Once a month some people out of choice, after the regular prayers, sit before this couple and ask for forgiveness silently, which is akin to the Confession, except that nobody is made privy to our sins. After this, holy water is sprinkled on our faces.

This Islam with a pinch of salt and spice has a major fallout. No Aga Khani male can have more than one wife. He will be excommunicated, perhaps the only time such a drastic action is taken. There are also no birth and death taxes, unlike in some other communities. An Ismaili is born and dies at his own risk!

In spite of all his popularity the position of the Aga Khan is a bit of a dilemma to himself. Some Ismailis in the frenzy of devotion tend to equate him (the only branch of Islam with a living hereditary Imam) with god. Although Prince Karim, like his ancestors, denies possessing any god-like qualities, he cannot do much to prevent the followers from exercising their right as believers. They want the euphoria of a magical moment.

His being the 49th imam is contested by the Shias and Sunnis. Ismail was the son of an 8th century Shia imam from whom the Aga Khan is said to have descended. However, all disputes were put to rest when a case came up for hearing at the Bombay High Court. Chief Justice Sir Joseph Arnold pronounced that the Khojas of Bombay were part of the larger Khoja community of India whose religion was that of the Ismaili wing of the Shias; they were a sect of people whose ancestors were Hindu in origin; they were converted and have abided by the faith of the Shia Imamee Ismailis, which in turn is bound by ties of spiritual allegiance to the hereditary Imams of the Ismailis.

They had been converted over 400 years ago by an Ismaili missionary from Persia, and had remained subject to the spiritual authority of the king of Ismaili Imams, the latest being the Aga Khan. These Imams were descended from the lords of Alamut, and through them descended from the Fatimid Caliphs of Egypt and, ultimately, the Prophet.

Justice Arnold delivered this judgment on November 12, 1866. Since then no one has contested the lineage.

Someone had once asked me cheekily why my forefathers had not converted under the pressure of Mahmud of Ghazni and waited for the Aga Khan’s ancestors. I suppose that holding enviable positions in the courts of the Shahs of Persia and later the British raj must have been seen as an awfully charmed existence. In fact, the title Aga Khan itself lends the position a certain accessibility while also being a titular head – it can mean a friendly brother or great chief.

The earliest Aga Khan seemed to promise release from the constraints of one religion and the diffused loyalties of another. The Islamic veil and licence for four marriages are looked down upon by the Ismaili and the idol worship of the Hindus is not permitted.

Westerners like to see the present Aga Khan as essentially an Occidental gentleman and his empire as a corporate enterprise. Which he is and isn’t, and it is and isn’t. The truth is that although his grandfather’s sympathies were with the British, through the Foundation and Fund for Economic Development he has built over 300 schools, 200 medical centres, universities, insurance houses and rural development projects to encourage Third World enterprise.

The community supports itself but has not yet fallen into the quagmire of ghettoisation. The point is: can the spiritual leader cope? He has set his followers free to lead a modern life and catapulted them to the technological league. Yet he has to accept their obeisance.

I always looked on the tamasha with cynicism till I realised that all of us are following our different paths and nobody finds it strange. Someone believes in doing the maatum during Moharram, another has declared he identifies with the Sunnis, yet another is an atheist…you can be all of these and yet belong.

And today when the image of the religion is getting a beating and I am being questioned from both sides (“Hindu basher”, “Islamic pretender”) I do believe that this state of constantly ‘becoming’ is liberating. And it started years ago on that chaand raat day when everyone was dressing up to go to the jamaat khaana. I could smell Nanima’s lavender talc and watched as she put on her salmon pink dupatta. I kept sitting in the arm chair. “Chalna naheen hai?” she asked. I said, no. “Kyon?” I don’t think I am sure I believe in all this, I said. And that was the end of the conversation, never to be brought up again by anyone. I was set free.

It would be tempting to state that in the cross-cultural clashes the Aga Khani is a nice balance, the process of religious bastardisation giving him legitimacy. But the fact is that he will not give the tolerant majority the benefit of basking in the role of Big Brother, and since the Aga Khani does not fit a stereotype the believer cannot be recognised. Neither will he put his lot behind fundamentalism, so he has no battle scars to show. It is unfortunate that despite the confluence of influences he is not above suspicion. Today when everyone wants an identity, the Aga Khani is really in a dilemma. So rather half-heartedly he scrawls: wanted an Allah. Dead or alive.

I cannot decide whether it is half a life or a very full one.

[star_munir]

To Faisal : As you wrote in your previous messages that you are not against western dresses but you think its inappropriate to wear a short top and tight pants, ghagra choli etc in Jamat Khana

ok but head is covered with duppata in Salwar kurta and also there is duppatta in ghargra choli but what about pant shirts. I am not writting about jeans. Is it necessary to wear Shalwar Kurta in Jamat Khana for girls as there is not duppatta in any other dress [except in ghagra choli]
??
Also you gave example :Christians who go to church have you seen them? Everyone of them is dressed up. Boys usually wear a dress shirt tucked into dress pants. Men usually wear suit and tie. Women and girls wear dresses and skirts that are below or right at their kneesThat my friend, is called respect, I don't see any of that in Jamat Khana when people are wearing what i described above. It has become a fashion show rather than a holy place to pray.

Again there is also not duppata or head covering in skirt blouse?


Jamat Khana is no doubt a holy place. I not mean in any of my message that one must think it as a fashion place and wore fashionable apparels etc
in Jamat Khana but my argument is that is it nececessary to cover head or wear only eastern dresses like Shalwar kurta in Jamat khana..

[star_munir]

To Azamour : As you wrote "My Question to you is
Is there a Farman/Ginan etc that tell you not to wear shoes inside jamat khana?. Or to put clothes on while coming to jamat khana?
some times we just use common sense. Sometimes we just refer to our cultural values. There are plenty of farmans about not forgetting your culture and traditions while we are in western countries. and when i say women or man should cover their head during prayers or atleast the ones that are leading the prayers, its not something we enforece, instead its something we educated jamat with and let them make choice for themselves"

I agree with you on some points as you wrote that its not some thing that we enforce to jamat but to educate and let them make choice for themselves. I agree teaching and educating our cultural values.
I also agree that as a respect it is good that the one who is leading prayer cover his/her head but when you wrote that all must cover head then I asked that if it is in Farman or Ginan that one must cover head it is obligatory? For sure many cover as sign of respect but is it necessary as mentioned in the case of Afi. Just like in parsis temple it is necessary to cover head for both men and women while praying.


Also as you wrote :You said that dupatta could be distracting.
So are the open hair. Atleast dupatta distracts just the person wearing it while Open hair could be distracting for every one else around her and deteriorates the enviornment in jamatkhana over all. I find it very distracting when some young 18year old girl, wearing tight jeans walks up to the podium like a cat walk, for annoucements and entire time she is playing with her hairs. Some times it feels like we are watching T.V rather than being in jamat khana.

I not meant in any way to make Jamat Khana a fashion place and I agree with you that the girl who was entire time playing with her hairs was not doing right think as it is not right thing to do in Jamat khana.
One can also wear a fashionable Salwar kurta with lots of embroidery and zari work. but the point it is that the clothes must be simple and clean.


As you wrote:
And again i dont think we should look down on any body who dosent wear dupatta or wears jeans. I think its the parents and the teachers that should take the responsibility for not giving the teenagers the right guidance.

I agree with you that it is the responsibility of parents and teachers to guide children and introduce cultural values, traditions and to teach them proper manners and our values etc

I

[star_munir]

A question for Azamour and Faisal and any one else can also share his/her views. we have discussed so far about dresses worn in Jamat Khana. What are your comments on short dresses or tight jeans etc worn by Ismaili girls in western countries in daily life [not in Jamat Khana].

Now reply to article posted by Aleem. Usually those who leave any religion or sect tries to criticize that sect or religion to justify their act and to expect others too to do that in similar manner.
There were many non sense things mentioned in that article for example "That the head of this 20 million strong community is not cast in the mould of a typical godman does not seem to worry his devotees one bit." Now this clearly shows how ignorant the writer is as many non ismailis also realize how much work Imam is doing not only for Ismailis but for all.
Also Imam in His Farman said,"My beloved spiritual children, your care and welfare will always be My greatest concern" [Ref: Kalam-e-Imam-e-Zaman]
As she wrote "How can ‘god’ own an island and race-horses? Why has he, who talks of cohesiveness, married outside? Why does he stay away from his people, most of who live in the Third World? "
Imam is spirtually present. Now this post quite shows the she not know the basic knowledge of Ismailism. That is the reason she left Ismailism. Thsi shows the importance of religious education specialy forchildren to understand correct concept of Imamat.
Answer to this and many other criticsm has been discussed in doctrine section of this forum under topic is Hazir Imam God?

She expressed her hatred as she wrote :"visit to the jamaat khaana (the local mosque) was a social event, with men and women often sharing the same space on two sides of the hall; it was a social event, especially on chaand raat every month. Gathered around would be perfumed women in their best chiffons, clutching fancy purses from which they would remove fancier prayer beads with tassels; the men would be dressed quite dandily, sometimes even tossing on a jacket, the fur caps they carried with them put on at a rakish angle."

So do you expect to wear dirty and untidy clothes in Jamat khana or any prayer house in some special occassion ?

She wrote :The prayers themselves were eclectic – ranging from the dua in Arabic to the tasbeeh, where the faithful beseeched HH to shower blessings so that the country prospered and all calamities were averted. There was a lot of getting up and sitting down to be done, which was a true test of devotion
I think she must see how Namaz is recited then she will not write for next time about getting up and sitting down....
She wrote:But then the Ismaili is hardly Islamic. Converted generations ago, the influences are varied. There was a time when the jamaat khaana would be lit up during Diwali, a cake would be cut for Christmas and even the Parsi Navroze was celebrated with haldi-covered eggs. Even today the Aga Khan’s birthday is celebrated the way Navratri is, with dandiya raas, including the disco version. Not many Ismailis offer the namaaz on a regular basis, though the Aga Khan himself does. I suppose the catholicity of his beliefs makes the devotees supra-Islamic.

Navroz is still celebrated and there is great significance of it from Islamic point of view and as for 13 December..Do the muslims not celebrate the birthday of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] and Ali..then whats wrong in celebrating birthday of Hazir Imam? With regards to playing dandia like Navratri ....what do you think about fire works in Shab-e-barat in same manner as of Diwali and 13 Decemver is a festival..what will you say about how shia muslims observe Mohram in manner of Dashera, although Mohram is not even a festival !
Significance of Navroz has been discussed in rites and ceremonies section and about dandia and dancing is not haram in Islam it has been discussed previously in doctrines section.

One point mentioned "No Aga Khani male can have more than one wife. He will be excommunicated, perhaps the only time such a drastic action is taken"

I think there is Farman in KIM about that. If any one knows then kindly tell the page number or date or quote that line of Farman.

[ShamsB]

A question for Azamour and Faisal and any one else can also share his/her views. we have discussed so far about dresses worn in Jamat Khana. What are your comments on short dresses or tight jeans etc worn by Ismaili girls in western countries in daily life [not in Jamat Khana].

Now reply to article posted by Aleem. Usually those who leave any religion or sect tries to criticize that sect or religion to justify their act and to expect others too to do that in similar manner.
There were many non sense things mentioned in that article for example "That the head of this 20 million strong community is not cast in the mould of a typical godman does not seem to worry his devotees one bit." Now this clearly shows how ignorant the writer is as many non ismailis also realize how much work Imam is doing not only for Ismailis but for all.

Munir,

As I have said before, those that want to believe can believe..those that don't are free to go...i don't believe we should respond and keep this thread going any longer because the nonbelievers aren't going to understand...and the more we respond..the more they'll respond...
we ismailies do not force anyone to follow what we believe..nor do we like other islamic sects(taliban, wahabbis) forcer our ways on others...
we choose to believe what we will..

Shams

[faisall667]

To Faisal : As you wrote in your previous messages that you are not against western dresses but you think its inappropriate to wear a short top and tight pants, ghagra choli etc in Jamat Khana

Yes, that would be correct

ok but head is covered with duppata in Salwar kurta and also there is duppatta in ghargra choli but what about pant shirts. I am not writting about jeans. Is it necessary to wear Shalwar Kurta in Jamat Khana for girls as there is not duppatta in any other dress [except in ghagra choli]
??
Also you gave example :Christians who go to church have you seen them? Everyone of them is dressed up. Boys usually wear a dress shirt tucked into dress pants. Men usually wear suit and tie. Women and girls wear dresses and skirts that are below or right at their kneesThat my friend, is called respect, I don't see any of that in Jamat Khana when people are wearing what i described above. It has become a fashion show rather than a holy place to pray.

Again there is also not duppata or head covering in skirt blouse?

My argument is not about duppata or head covering, my argument is about people exposing to much of their bodies. I could careless if someone covers their hair or not.

Jamat Khana is no doubt a holy place. I not mean in any of my message that one must think it as a fashion place and wore fashionable apparels etc

I know it is not a fashion place, and you are right, it is not a fashion place, but people dressing up the way they do, that gives an aura like that of a fashion place (which is not good) WHEN IT IS REALLY SUPPOSED TO BE A HOLY PLACE. Do you get what I am trying to say?

What are your comments on short dresses or tight jeans etc worn by Ismaili girls in western countries in daily life [not in Jamat Khana].

I feel it is alright for them to do whatever they please outside of Jamat Khana. It is their life, which does not interfere with mine, so I do not care about what they do outside of Jamat Khana. Inside Jamat Khana, it’s a different story. It is a holy place so therefore one should dress appropriately.

Now reply to article posted by Aleem.

I will get back to you on that one (maybe). It is a long article and I don’t know when I am going to get a chance to read it.



Thank you
Faisal

[uerlia]

(Refer Surah An-nur ayat 31 on hijab)

The main issues I had made were concerning shariat and adaab - when hijab comes as one aspect of adaab; respect. And could one ignore as such while striving oneself in his tariqah reaching marifat - nurullah.

I am glad reading those points thought me out hijab targets one to adaab; respects, not merely on who wears what and how and what shows. We cant ignore our desire and nafsu - its Allah creation too, thus it all boils down to adaab, respect of one self with his/herself, with people, with the surrounding, and above all with Allah. It does comes back to individual choice; and there is no compulsion in the religion.

Think of some scenario like: I am respecting myself, lower my desire, focussing myself to Allah, just Allah, at that point of time, (probably in zikir, in holy area) and sudden came this sexy pie of my desire walking by.....wow!

Dont know if anyone 'read' the picture – the bottom line is respect of one to another.

When we say on adaab in the shariat, hijab is one of the things - which i guess its the most bizarre to some. Whats the fuss of one piece of cloth on your head? No big deal, ya? And neither do that ayat 31? Really, if that ayat didn’t exist, it still does a big deal, in one’s adaab.

[curious2]

Munir,

As I have said before, those that want to believe can believe..those that don't are free to go...i don't believe we should respond and keep this thread going any longer because the nonbelievers aren't going to understand...and the more we respond..the more they'll respond...
we ismailies do not force anyone to follow what we believe..nor do we like other islamic sects(taliban, wahabbis) forcer our ways on others...
we choose to believe what we will..

Shams

With this attitude, you can only do two thing ...

1) Shut down this board and keep it only for like minded Ismailis.
2) Shut down this board and .... I guess there really is one option.

Bunch of my comments together :

First and foremost, the momin goes to JK to meet his murshid. He does not care what you and I wear, nor does he care what others look like. You and I are supposed to be momins, so you and I should not care if the air is bothering someone's hair while she is reading an announcement. The momin could very well be a mendicant wearing filthy clothes or a beauty queen wearing clothes according to her taste and style. It should be none of our business to criticize them in our mind or in open. But we're not arguing over this. I'll continue below the same argument in a bit.

Azamour, the hijab was not introduced by the Prophet (PBUH). It has been in use since early civilization. Search Shabbir Ahmed's forum and you'll find the proper reference.

The argument is not about one particular dressing from one particular country or culture. I agree, shalwar-kurta or chador or dupatta is a tradition from one particular region, logically it makes no sense to keep the same cultural tradition three generation down the road at opposite end of the world. However, we can help all those momins by keeping the environment "clean", "pure" and "respectfull" by not wearing improper dresses. There are universal etiquettes when it comes to dressing. Someone has already posted the farman about dressing which MHI gave in Pakistan I believe.

[star_munir]

Ya Ali Madad to all

Re:Imam SMS Aga Khan orderd discontinuation of Hijab for Ismailis to correct Muslims in very early 20th century. Purpose was to bring women equal to Man and educating them as that will affect the education of future generations. and strengthen our economic and social situations in IndoPak. And im sure he had many other reason.
When Imam first suggested education of women and discontinuation of Hijab in Muslim league in 1st decade of 20th century he was opposed by most muslim leaders of that times. It took them years to understad as Hijab is optional in Pakistan And finally women are being educated pretty much most part of the country.
But now in 21st century while we are living in west, if an educated, working women one day decides to wear Hijab cause man and women here are not any different then the times of Prophet muhammad P.B.U.H. I really dont think there is any thing wrong with it.

I agree with points that Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah ordered not to wear hijab. But I dont agree that girl, specially an Ismaili girl wears hijab and come to Jk. That would mean that there is no respect of Imam's Farman i.e, not even very tough to follow.

[pardesi]

GETTING BACK TO THE FIRST POST ON THIS TOPIC BY NOREEN ABOUT HIJAB WHAT WOULD YOU CALL THE MUSLIM WOMEN (WHO ARE NOT ISMAILIS) WHO DO NOT WEAR HIJAB. WOULD THEY BE CALLED KAFFIRS TOO? DOES HIJAB DEFINE WHO IS MUSLIM AND WHO IS NOT? I THOUGHT THE MEANING OF THE WORD "MUSLIM" IS "ONE WHO SUBMITS TO THE WILL OF ALLAH". NOW HOW MANY SO CALLED MUSLIMS ARE ACTUALLY MUSLIMS. DO THEY COMPLETELY SUBMIT TO THE WILL OF ALLAH?

IS ISLAM BEING FRANCHISED BY THE FUNDAMENTALISTS AND THE MULLAHS?

A GOOD ARGUMENT DONT YOU THINK?

[star_munir]

To Shams B:
I agree with you and even I not like to debate with non Ismailis or former Ismailis with regards to importance of Ismailism but I reply it as it was posted here in this website and the article clearly demonstrates the ignorance of the author who is former Ismaili and her false statements like Imam not taking care of His murids, Even non Ismailis accept the fact that how much work Imam is doing for Ismailis and the rest of world, she wrote about actions of sitting down and standing up again and again for tasbih..may be she has forgotten or never seen any one reciting namaz, she argued and said about Ismailis celebrating birthday of Hazir Imam and plays Dandia in same manner as hindus on navratri. So I thought do muslims no celebrate birthday of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH]? What about fire works in Shab-e-barat in manner of Diwali and processions in Mohram in manner of Dasehra? I thought to reply not to guide that former Ismaili but for clarifications of her non sense articles for the Ismailis who are here for discussion and for sharing and learning knowledge about Ismailism

[star_munir]

Faisal as you wrote:My argument is not about duppata or head covering, my argument is about people exposing to much of their bodies. I could careless if someone covers their hair or not.
Quote: Jamat Khana is no doubt a holy place. I not mean in any of my message that one must think it as a fashion place and wore fashionable apparels etc I know it is not a fashion place, and you are right, it is not a fashion place, but people dressing up the way they do, that gives an aura like that of a fashion place (which is not good) WHEN IT IS REALLY SUPPOSED TO BE A HOLY PLACE. Do you get what I am trying to say

I got your point that you are not saying it is necessary to cover head and you are not against western dresses but as per you girls must not wear any dress be it eastern or westen which is very short.
Even I am not favouring girls to wear mini skirt in Jamat Khana. My argument was about wearing of duppatta which is only in two kind of dresses as per my knowledge one in Shalwar kurta and other in ghagra choli which is again in your view in appropriate to wear in Jk thats why I wrote that..

I think that all Ismailis must try to wear appropriate dress in Jamat Khana but again when I say appropriate for instance if a girl wears pant shirt or top and pant in Jamat Khana it may be appropriate in my eyes but not in some one else as there is not any duppatta or head covering. So I agree with

Curios 2 that:First and foremost, the momin goes to JK to meet his murshid. He does not care what you and I wear, nor does he care what others look like. You and I are supposed to be momins, so you and I should not care if the air is bothering someone's hair while she is reading an announcement. The momin could very well be a mendicant wearing filthy clothes or a beauty queen wearing clothes according to her taste and style. It should be none of our business to criticize them in our mind or in open. But we're not arguing over this.

As per Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah in Zanjibar, Not any Prophet or Imam made Farman to wear burkha [ref:KIM date of Farman:20/8/1899]

[azamour]

to curious2 as you wrote

With this attitude, you can only do two thing ...

1) Shut down this board and keep it only for like minded Ismailis.
2) Shut down this board and .... I guess there really is one option.

I agree with you as defending our Faith and our believes should not be so difficult for us Ismailis as we believe in intellectual Faith. But we should judge the intent of the critic first. If their purpose is mere criticism then there is no need for us to spend time reading or listening to what they have to say. If they seek knowledge and look for answers in enviornment of mutual respect then we should help them understand and clarify misunderstanding.

As for the article presented above, My impression was that Miss Farzana Versey finds pleasure in mockery and sarcasm of religion. Its her way of dealing with the guilt of not practicing the religion. Similar or worse articles could be writted about all religions. So her problem is not with Ismailism, its with all religion that have any kind of format. If she really wants to mock religion than in my view she should start with existance of God. As for her that should be the most humorous belief of all. Atleast Ismailis follow somebody that physically exists.

I dont think reply to such articles or the conversation mentioned above in the chat room could bring any thing constructive. In my view All ismailis should first consider intent of the critic before wasting their efforts.


[/b]

[azamour]

Curious2 as you wrote:

Azamour, the hijab was not introduced by the Prophet (PBUH). It has been in use since early civilization. Search Shabbir Ahmed's forum and you'll find the proper reference.

when is said Probet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) introduced Hijab in Islam, I didnt mean He INVENTED Hijab. Introduction could be either enforcing it as a common practice Himself OR simply accepting it with quite consent.

Curiou2 wrote:

First and foremost, the momin goes to JK to meet his murshid. He does not care what you and I wear, nor does he care what others look like. You and I are supposed to be momins, so you and I should not care if the air is bothering someone's hair while she is reading an announcement

Not every body who is Ismaili is Momin. According to Imam S.M.S we need atleast 313 momins to run this world, My point is they are Rare. Yes True momin doesnt get distracted with young models may be. But Most of Us do. More over whether we get distracted or not, we should still maintain a religious enviornment In JK.

And as far as duppata is concerned, I understand that its totally illogical to enforce it. I also understand that it only stems from particualr culture and becomes irrelevant outside. But broader question im asking is are we even informing our children of what our cultural heritage is?. If a SouthAsian child is wearing new Shalwar Kamiz one day to JK, with fine emroided Dupatta, does she even know that their Grandmothers back home use to cover their head during prayers?. Whether she does it or not is her choice.

[curious2]

But broader question im asking is are we even informing our children of what our cultural heritage is?. If a SouthAsian child is wearing new Shalwar Kamiz one day to JK, with fine emroided Dupatta, does she even know that their Grandmothers back home use to cover their head during prayers?. Whether she does it or not is her choice.

I think responsibility lies with the parents. I don't like to see any leader lecturing us to comply but I some time wonder if these same leaders (who I'm sure are parents as well) do understand or care about this topic or not?

As far as your comment about cultural heritage is concerned, I think the new generation is (and will be) developing their own cultural heritage. I'm not even convinced that wearing a dupatta or hat falls under the cultural heritage. Only thing I see wrong in this whole debate and argument is the way our young generation dressing up when they go to JK (I even blame many adults). It is visibly wrong and there is no argument against it.

BTW, who's fault is it that some Farzana while growing up was not informed properly about our Tariqa?? (even assuming that above Farzana may be fake). I blame myself. You should blame yourself too.

[kmaherali]

MHI in one of his speeches made an interesting remark on the way the architecture of Muslim homes is driven by the need to sequester women. Here is the excerpt...

"And we were reminded that Islamic homes are sanctuaries, places of retreat and refreshment from the noise and movement of public life. Those aspects of our idiom that engender this sense of peace should come with us in our designs for the homes of the future. But here we come upon one of the many paradoxes that struck us in our research. How much of the privacy built into a Muslim house was necessitated by the sequestering of our women? When women step out of purdah, no doubt the physical form of new households will reflect this change. On the other hand, perhaps the internal orientation of buildings can be most closely linked to the privacy and attitude to the family, the very base of Islam."(SPEECH TO THE ASIA SOCIETY, NEW YORK, UNITED STATES
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25th 1979)

[curious2]

Do you have the full speech? I'm having little difficulty comprehending it with just one paragraph. Or may be you can expand on it to make it little easy. Thanks.

MHI in one of his speeches made an interesting remark on the way the architecture of Muslim homes is driven by the need to sequester women. Here is the excerpt...

"And we were reminded that Islamic homes are sanctuaries, places of retreat and refreshment from the noise and movement of public life. Those aspects of our idiom that engender this sense of peace should come with us in our designs for the homes of the future. But here we come upon one of the many paradoxes that struck us in our research. How much of the privacy built into a Muslim house was necessitated by the sequestering of our women? When women step out of purdah, no doubt the physical form of new households will reflect this change. On the other hand, perhaps the internal orientation of buildings can be most closely linked to the privacy and attitude to the family, the very base of Islam."(SPEECH TO THE ASIA SOCIETY, NEW YORK, UNITED STATES
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25th 1979)

[kmaherali]

Do you have the full speech? I'm having little difficulty comprehending it with just one paragraph. Or may be you can expand on it to make it little easy. Thanks.

I thought the English was plain and simple. He mentioned this in the context of explaining Islamic architecture and what are the sources of inspiration behind it. In this particular example He is trying to elaborate on it by mentioning the paradox; on the one hand the privacy reflects the need to sequester women while on the other there is a need for peace and quite.

Here is the link to the full speech..

http://www.ismaili.net/speech/s790925.html

[kmaherali]

The following article that appeared in today's Calgary Herald is authored by an educated caucasian recently converted Muslim woman. It is interesting as it comes from a perspective of a person who has been a non Muslim and hence is able to see things from a broader comparative perspective.

Life is good for Muslim women

Maureen McCormick
For The Calgary Herald


Wednesday, August 10, 2005


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When I was a non-Muslim, I, too, believed that Islam was misogynistic, male-dominated and backwards. Imagine my surprise after I read the Qur'an and learned Islam is diametrically opposed to misogyny and male dominance, and, in fact, is a very progressive and gentle faith which protects women.

I have seen a lot of controversy over the last few weeks about the application of sharia law to resolving family disputes between willing individuals in Canada. The subject has led to a discussion of the status of women in Islam.

As a Canadian caucasian woman who recently accepted the Islamic faith, I would like to share my thoughts.

There is good and bad everywhere and it is important to stress that not every Muslim follows true sharia. Humans are not infallible.

First and foremost, Islam gives a woman more legal rights than she is afforded using Canadian law -- the right to keep all of her property, even in a divorce; the right to keep her own money; even the right to be sexually satisfied, among many other things. Non-Muslim women don't have those rights; they are just expected to suck it up.

The concept of a dowry might seem odd in Canada, but it has its merits. Many divorced women in Canada live below the poverty line because their ex-husbands are unwilling to support them. They pay the least amount of alimony possible and transfer their assets to their new wives so that the ex-wife gets nothing.

There are not many divorced women who live at the same standard they had while married unless they are professional women. To me, a dowry is like an insurance policy -- the just-in-case part of marriage.

(I thought the concept of men being able to have multiple wives was also a way for women to be kept safe and protected if their husbands died or they could not otherwise marry. I'm not sure whether that is as relevant today; most men don't have enough money to support more than one wife and family. Moreover, the Qur'an stipulates that what one wife gets, the others must also be provided with).

Islam gives women more respect than any other faith. My experiences have shown me (for the most part) that Muslim men really respect women and like them for who they are. In my opinion, nothing is sexier than a woman who is covered up. No woman with any amount of self-respect would walk around looking like she is soliciting sex. Too many people have no respect for each other at all. It's very sad to see.

Refraining from sex before marriage affords the woman the right to know a man first and give the man her mind, heart and soul before she decides to give her body (which is completely backwards to the thinking here, where a woman has to "put out" in order to get another date).

The woman is never compromised or coerced in any way in Islam. She is always in control of her body and is always provided a safe environment. What a concept.

Women are protected in Islam. Men are responsible for the safety, protection, financial support and well-being of their wives and families. Perhaps an old-fashioned concept, but it works. Real women want to be with real men. Moreover, Islam allows for women to be emancipated and independent.

Islam is easy and fair for both sexes. It is a faith between an individual and God. In its story about Adam and Eve, Islam did not mention that Eve encouraged Adam to eat the forbidden fruit. The original sin concept led to the downgrading of women in the early Christian culture. Islam actually treats love-making with ease and Muslims expect to be rewarded for making love to their lawful spouses.

Muslim women can do anything that any other woman in the world can do, cultural limitations notwithstanding. The only difference is good Muslim women still have their honour and respect their husbands.

Generally speaking, my experience has been that Muslim women have more self-respect and confidence than non-Muslim women because Muslim women know what really counts.

As a Muslim woman, I do not feel pressured to look like a cover model. I do the best I have with what I've got. I also feel much more feminine and free as a result of not being expected to dress a certain way or look cheap to attract attention from men. I am treated like a human being; not a sex symbol. That is such a huge relief.

I still like to look pretty and I like to be colour-co-ordinated (shoes are definitely a weakness here!). But, with Islam, I'm saving the good stuff for a good man, not showing the entire world my physical attributes, which are transitory.

Maureen McCormick, who has a BSC and BA, works as an assistant in a downtown law firm.

© The Calgary Herald 2005