Alif, Lam Mim

[samirziz]

I have always wondered what the words Alif, Lam and Mim mean in the Quran, Do they stand for Ali and Muhammed (212).

Thanks and Ya Ali Madad

[kmaherali]

There is an interesting explanation given by our great Fatimid dai Al- Muayyad Fi Din Shirazi at:

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/1009/mu11.html

LECTURE ELEVENTH : THE MEANING OF THE MYSTERIOUS LETTERS

The Holy Qur'a, says, "Alif, laam, meem zalikat kitabo la raibfeehi." Some of the commentators of the Qur'an explain this verse by saying that ‘alif' ‘laam' ‘meem' mean an oath taken by God. Alif they say is taken from the word ‘Allah', ‘laam' from Gabriel and ‘meem' from Mohammed. Although some of these commentators do not believe in the ‘taweel' and are too proud to accept their explanation, in this particular instance, their commentary is very much near to the interpretation of the exponents of the ‘taweel'.

The largest number of such dis-connected lettes used in the Qur'an is five, ‘Kaaf', ‘haa', ‘yaa', ‘ain', ‘saad' and ‘haa' ‘meem' ‘ain' ‘seen' ‘qaaf' are the specimens of the five dis-connected letters. The least number of such letters used in the Qur'an is one. ‘Saad and ‘qaaf' and ‘noon' are the specimens of single letters. All such letter known in Arabic as ‘huruf-muqatta-at' are used in the Qur'an for the purpose of taking an oath. As a rule, one never takes oath by any thing which is not dignified or dear to him. In this instance God has taken oath by two spiritual powers which are the first cause of the Universe and the final point in its evolution, namely the universal intellect and universal soul and by one physical being who hjolds the highest position in His world of creation and who is of His ‘hudud' on earth.

By taking an oath by these three mighty powers God lays emphasis on what He wishes to express by the verse. The word ‘zalika' used in the verse is a demonstartive pronoun correponding to ‘that' in English. Since, the word ‘that' is always used for something distant and never for something close by, the expression ‘zalikal-kitab' meaning ‘that book', does not refer to the Qur'an which is in front of our eyes. It refer to the book other than the Qur'an.

The word ‘kitab' etymologically means a well arranged combination of words. Just as the word ‘kateeba' stands for an orderly group of soldiers, the word ‘kitab' stands for a well arranged number of chapters and verses dealing with the commands and prohibitions and instructive events from the past history. This is what the Qur'an consists of.

It is related on good authority that the Commander of the Faithful, ‘Ali bin Abu Talib was one day reading the Qur'an. In the course of his reading when he arrived at the following verse, "This book of ours speaks the truth," he stopped reading. He placed the Qur'an on his head and said, "O book of God speak. O book of God speak. O book of God speak." By repeating this thrice he has made it clear to us that he is the ‘speaking book' of God and that the Qur'an is the ‘silent book'. Had he and the Imams from his progeny not dived deep into the Qur'an and taken out from it, its hidden treasures, the real meaning of the Qur'an would have remained as hidden as the latent fire in the stone. The doors of truth would have been closed to us for ever.

Just as the latent fire in the stone cannot come out unless it is struck by the flint, similarly the doors of the Qur'an will not open unless the ‘speaking book' the Imam, opens them for us. The silent books, the Qur'an, is like clay and the speaking book, the Imam, is like the potter. The book is like the steel and the Imam is the moulder. The book is like the wood and the Imam is the carpenter. They are both complementary to each other.

It is in this connection that the Prophet has said, "I am leaving amongst you two weighty things. The one is the book of God and the second is my ‘ahl-e-bait'. If you stick to them you will never be lost." He added to this by saying: "They will never part with each other until they return to me at the ‘hauz-e-kausar'." He meant to say that the book of God and the ‘ahl-e-bait' are inseparable. The one cannot exist without the other.

In conclusion, the speaking book, the interpreter of the silent book, is undoubtedly selected by God as the ‘wasee' of Mohammed, just as Mohammed himself is selected by Him as His Prophet. The Qur'anic phrase'hudallil-muttaqeen' meaning guidance for thr God-fearing people which is used as an additional description of the book of God lays further emphasis on the point that the ‘kitabun-Natiq', and the Imams from his progeny, are the only source of guidance for mankind.

[ismaili103]

"As has already been explained in this book,Alif signifies the Universal Intellect. It is the first letter, just as the Intellect is the First (Being), which came into existence ex nihilo. Lam is like Alif but is the compound of two lines – ل while Alif is a single line: ا. Lam signifies the Universal Soul, which came into existence through the mediation of the Universal Intellect and is the second existent, just as Lam is two lines, thus ل. Recognition of all things is through the Soul and the Intellect and it is because of this that these two letters are prefixed to all letters occurring frequently in speech"

Sayyidna Nāṣir-i Khusraw,
(Wajh-i Dīn, 108, Avaani Edition)

https://ismailignosis.com/2015/01/02/es ... ving-imam/

[Admin]

Not to forget Massignon in his thesis on al-Hallaj explaining Ali, Salman, Muhammad with the 3 letters found in the Quran.

[swamidada]

In Quran HURUF E MUQATTA'AT are ayats. Like ALIF LAAM MEEM is counted ayat # 1 and ZALIKAL KITABU LA RAIB FIHI is ayat # 2 in sequence in Surah Baqarah. In Shia and Sufi traditions HURUF E MUQATTA'AT are related to Prophet Muhammad and Ali Murtaza, and are their sifati names.
ALIF LAAM MEEM is a high power ISM which is related to ZALIKAL KITAB. Mowla ALi Murtaza said, "I AM ZALIKAL KITABU LA RAIB FIHI" means I am THAT BOOK in which there is no doubt (reference KOUKAB DURRI). It is noted that Quran has used the phrase 'ZALIKAL KITAB' means THAT BOOK and not 'HAZAL KITAB' which means THIS BOOK.
HAZAL KITAB is present Quran in printed form. ZALIKAL KITAB is in "LOH MAHFUZ" and Ali Murtaza said "ANA LOH MAHFUZ" I am Loh Mahfuz. (reference KOUKAB DURRI).

[ismaili103]

Not to forget Massignon in his thesis on al-Hallaj explaining Ali, Salman, Muhammad with the 3 letters found in the Quran.

I won't be surprised if Salman is part of Alif Laam Meem. As per the early Ismaili thought, Salman Farsi was the person who reached or his soul annihilated in the Universal Soul. That's why as per the Fatimid and Post Fatimid Ismaili interpretations, Salman Farsi is one of the four Bab under the Imam of the time.

Bab (Manifestation of Universal Soul)

- Pir of the time
- Next Imam
- One of the female member in Imam's family
- Salman (A murid who has reached the level of Universal Soul)

In every Imam's time, these four function as the manifestation of the Universal Soul.

The four Babs can also be interpreted as 4 wives of Imam. This is the esoteric meaning of the 4 wives in Islam.

[swamidada]

Not to forget Massignon in his thesis on al-Hallaj explaining Ali, Salman, Muhammad with the 3 letters found in the Quran.

I won't be surprised if Salman is part of Alif Laam Meem. As per the early Ismaili thought, Salman Farsi was the person who reached or his soul annihilated in the Universal Soul. That's why as per the Fatimid and Post Fatimid Ismaili interpretations, Salman Farsi is one of the four Bab under the Imam of the time.

Modern scholarship needs references from primary sources or secondary. please name the book from which you adopted this theory. Every pure soul of a momin can merge with Universal soul God willing. In which book is it mentioned that Salman Farsi is a Baab?

[swamidada]

Bab (Manifestation of Universal Soul)

- Pir of the time
- Next Imam
- One of the female member in Imam's family
- Salman (A murid who has reached the level of Universal Soul)
In every Imam's time, these four function as the manifestation of the Universal Soul.

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

[ismaili103]

Bab (Manifestation of Universal Soul)

- Pir of the time
- Next Imam
- One of the female member in Imam's family
- Salman (A murid who has reached the level of Universal Soul)
In every Imam's time, these four function as the manifestation of the Universal Soul.

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

1) Yes, Hazir Imam is both Pir and Imam of the time, that's why Imam blesses us with maternal and paternal blessings. In essence, Light of Muhammad and Ali are not separate from each other, they can function separately at time (Pre Imam Sultan Mohd Shah A.S era) but in reality they are not separate from each other. So, current Imam is also one of the 4 Babs of the time and he makes farman in the capacity of the Pir.

2) We know who is the Pir of the time, It's Hazir Imam but for the rest of 3 babs, we can only assume. We have 5 possibilities for the the position of the next Imam, we don't know who will be the next Imam, but one of from those five (3 Sons and 2 Grandsons), one is the 2nd bab of the time and his soul is merged with the Universal Soul.

3) All four are the manifestation of the Universal Soul which means their individual soul do not exist anymore and it's merged with the Universal Soul and Universal Soul is One. Again for the female bab, we can assume. Princess Zahra could be the bab of Hazir Imam. Tbh, I won't be surprised, you can see her most of the time accompanying Hazir Imam, wherever he goes i.e. Convocations, meetings, events etc. Every Imam has 4 babs and one of them is always the female of the family, we have had other females in history whose info we have i.e. Hazrat Bibi Fatima A.S, Hazrat Zainab A.S, Sit al Mulk etc. But there are other females from the family of Imam whose info we don't have but the bottom line is every Imam has 1 female bab who is the Manifestation of the Universal Soul.

4) Salman Farsi was the one of the four bab of Imam Ali, as I said above, every Imam have four babs and one of them is the murid. But, only one murid can be the bab at a time, once that murid dies physically, other murid who might have reached the status of hujjat (3rd rank) becomes the fourth bab (2nd rank) of the Hazir Imam. Who are these murids? we don't know, Imam knows better but in our history we have info of these murids whose soul merged in the Universal Soul and they become the fourth bab of the Imam of the time e.g.

- Jafar bin Mansur Al Yemen was the Bab of Imam Muiz A.S (he was originally a 12er Shia but became Ismaili)
- Al Muyyad Shirazi was the Bab of Imam Al Mustansir Billah - I
- Hassan Bin Sabbah was the Bab of Imam Al Mustansir Billah - I, Imam Nizar, Imam Hadi.

Not to mention, Wazir Ismail Ganji and Pir Sabzali who reached the status of Pir after their death i.e. their individual soul annihilated into Universal Soul after they die.

[ismaili103]

Not to forget Massignon in his thesis on al-Hallaj explaining Ali, Salman, Muhammad with the 3 letters found in the Quran.

I won't be surprised if Salman is part of Alif Laam Meem. As per the early Ismaili thought, Salman Farsi was the person who reached or his soul annihilated in the Universal Soul. That's why as per the Fatimid and Post Fatimid Ismaili interpretations, Salman Farsi is one of the four Bab under the Imam of the time.

Modern scholarship needs references from primary sources or secondary. please name the book from which you adopted this theory. Every pure soul of a momin can merge with Universal soul God willing. In which book is it mentioned that Salman Farsi is a Baab?

Yes, every pure soul can merge into Universal Soul and that's the only reason Universal Soul created the Universes. But, as I mentioned above only 4 individual at a time can be physically function as the Bab. Their are murids who merged with Universal Soul as I mentioned above like Pir Sabz Ali and Nasir Khusrow, Rumi, Shams Tabrez etc but only after their death. Physically only four individual can function as the Bab.

I have already mentioned that this philosophy is by early Ismaili hujjats, dais and babs.

"The four Hujjahs [Babs] who are never separate from the [spiritual] presence of the Imam (ḥaḍrat-i Imam): they take knowledge from him and give it to the people. People cannot reach a rank in which they can receive a word from the Imam without the intermediary of one of those four Hujjahs [Babs]."

Sayyidna Nāṣir-i Khusraw, (Wajh-i Dīn, 264, Avaani Edition

[swamidada]

I won't be surprised if Salman is part of Alif Laam Meem. As per the early Ismaili thought, Salman Farsi was the person who reached or his soul annihilated in the Universal Soul. That's why as per the Fatimid and Post Fatimid Ismaili interpretations, Salman Farsi is one of the four Bab under the Imam of the time.

Bab (Manifestation of Universal Soul)

None of Ismaili book mentions Salman Farsi is part of Alif Laam Meem. You did not mention the name of book in which it is mentioned that Salman is Baab. You have based your theory on an article posted on Ismaili gnosis. Let me quote what Ismaili gnosis has mentioned:

"Throughout history, the Ismaili da‘wah consisted of a formal hierarchy of spiritual teachers and scholars working under the Imam of the Time. The most basic form of the Ismaili da‘wah hierarchy is as follows:

1. Imam
2. Bab (Gate)
3. Hujjah (Proof)
4. Da‘i (Summoner)
5. Ma’dhun Akbar (Senior Teacher)
6. Ma’dhun Asghar (Junior Teacher)
7. Mustajib (Respondent or Initiate)"
In my opinion the above scheme mentions the levels of DA'WA.
Imam himself is Baab as Prophet said, : ANA MADINATUL ILM WA ALIYYUN BABUHA". Therefore Ali is Baab himself according to farman e Nabi. Also Imam Jafar Sadiq said, "NAHNU BAABULLAH".

[swamidada]

Bab (Manifestation of Universal Soul)

- Pir of the time
- Next Imam
- One of the female member in Imam's family
- Salman (A murid who has reached the level of Universal Soul)
In every Imam's time, these four function as the manifestation of the Universal Soul.

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

1) Yes, Hazir Imam is both Pir and Imam of the time, that's why Imam blesses us with maternal and paternal blessings. In essence, Light of Muhammad and Ali are not separate from each other, they can function separately at time (Pre Imam Sultan Mohd Shah A.S era) but in reality they are not separate from each other. So, current Imam is also one of the 4 Babs of the time and he makes farman in the capacity of the Pir.

I have objection on your statement; "Current Imam is also one of the 4 Baabs of the time". My question is then who other 3 Baabs are as 3 Imams at current time. Do not forget that one Pir was a book. Should that book be considered Baab?

[swamidada]

Bab (Manifestation of Universal Soul)

- Pir of the time
- Next Imam
- One of the female member in Imam's family
- Salman (A murid who has reached the level of Universal Soul)
In every Imam's time, these four function as the manifestation of the Universal Soul.

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

2) We know who is the Pir of the time, It's Hazir Imam but for the rest of 3 babs, we can only assume. We have 5 possibilities for the the position of the next Imam, we don't know who will be the next Imam, but one of from those five (3 Sons and 2 Grandsons), one is the 2nd bab of the time and his soul is merged with the Universal Soul.

"3 sons and 2 grand sons", Please refer to PREAMBLE article 3. I quote," It being the absolute prerogative of the Imam of the time to appoint his successor from amongst any of his MALE descendants whether they be sons or REMOTER ISSUE.

[swamidada]

Bab (Manifestation of Universal Soul)

- Pir of the time
- Next Imam
- One of the female member in Imam's family
- Salman (A murid who has reached the level of Universal Soul)
In every Imam's time, these four function as the manifestation of the Universal Soul.

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

3) All four are the manifestation of the Universal Soul which means their individual soul do not exist anymore and it's merged with the Universal Soul and Universal Soul is One. Again for the female bab, we can assume. Princess Zahra could be the bab of Hazir Imam.

Did Hazar Imam declared Princess Zahra is one of the Baab, you wrote we assume. What about Princess Salima first wife of Hazar Imam, was she a Baab? or after divorce Baab title was taken away!!?

[swamidada]

Bab (Manifestation of Universal Soul)

- Pir of the time
- Next Imam
- One of the female member in Imam's family
- Salman (A murid who has reached the level of Universal Soul)
In every Imam's time, these four function as the manifestation of the Universal Soul.

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

4) Salman Farsi was the one of the four bab of Imam Ali, as I said above, every Imam have four babs and one of them is the murid. But, only one murid can be the bab at a time, once that murid dies physically, other murid who might have reached the status of hujjat (3rd rank) becomes the fourth bab (2nd rank) of the Hazir Imam. Who are these murids? we don't know, Imam knows better but in our history we have info of these murids whose soul merged in the Universal Soul and they become the fourth bab of the Imam of the time e.g.
Not to mention, Wazir Ismail Ganji and Pir Sabzali who reached the status of Pir after their death i.e. their individual soul annihilated into Universal Soul after they die.

Salman Farsi was from Ahl Bait therefore he became Baab. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah declared Wazir Muhammad Remu, Wazir Basariya, and Wazir Rahim were amongst Ahl Bait, but Imam never declared who was Baab or ALL 3 were Baabs. What about Wazir Ismail Gangji and Pir Subz Ali, did they not deserved the rank of Baabs?

[ismaili103]

I won't be surprised if Salman is part of Alif Laam Meem. As per the early Ismaili thought, Salman Farsi was the person who reached or his soul annihilated in the Universal Soul. That's why as per the Fatimid and Post Fatimid Ismaili interpretations, Salman Farsi is one of the four Bab under the Imam of the time.

Bab (Manifestation of Universal Soul)

None of Ismaili book mentions Salman Farsi is part of Alif Laam Meem. You did not mention the name of book in which it is mentioned that Salman is Baab. You have based your theory on an article posted on Ismaili gnosis. Let me quote what Ismaili gnosis has mentioned:

"Throughout history, the Ismaili da‘wah consisted of a formal hierarchy of spiritual teachers and scholars working under the Imam of the Time. The most basic form of the Ismaili da‘wah hierarchy is as follows:

1. Imam
2. Bab (Gate)
3. Hujjah (Proof)
4. Da‘i (Summoner)
5. Ma’dhun Akbar (Senior Teacher)
6. Ma’dhun Asghar (Junior Teacher)
7. Mustajib (Respondent or Initiate)"
In my opinion the above scheme mentions the levels of DA'WA.
Imam himself is Baab as Prophet said, : ANA MADINATUL ILM WA ALIYYUN BABUHA". Therefore Ali is Baab himself according to farman e Nabi. Also Imam Jafar Sadiq said, "NAHNU BAABULLAH".

You should ask Admin as he quote that Salman is part of Alif Laam Meem. Secondly, you are free to interpret ranks of dawah based on your intellect. Our religion is the religion of Intellect, personally neither me endorse the ideas of Ismaili Gnosis equating Imam with Universal Intellect because I believe Imam is the Manifestation of "He who is above all else".

[ismaili103]

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

1) Yes, Hazir Imam is both Pir and Imam of the time, that's why Imam blesses us with maternal and paternal blessings. In essence, Light of Muhammad and Ali are not separate from each other, they can function separately at time (Pre Imam Sultan Mohd Shah A.S era) but in reality they are not separate from each other. So, current Imam is also one of the 4 Babs of the time and he makes farman in the capacity of the Pir.

I have objection on your statement; "Current Imam is also one of the 4 Baabs of the time". My question is then who other 3 Baabs are as 3 Imams at current time. Do not forget that one Pir was a book. Should that book be considered Baab?

Imam is One, Babs are 4. It's as simple as that.

One of the Bab is Pir of the time who is currently the Imam that why Imam blesses us with paternal and maternal blessings. Rest of the 3 Babs are Babs not Imam and we don't know who these three Babs are but we can only assume as I have already mentioned.

Secondly. Pir Pandiyat-e-Jawanmardi was written by Imam himself, Imam Mustansirbillah III took the authority of Piratan after the death of Pir Tajuddin and sent the Book of his Farman to the Jamat of Sub Continent and asked the Jamat to take guidance from it. As I mentioned earlier, Light of Ali and Muhammad are not separate from each other, it's one light, no matter if that light manifest in two different beings but in reality, in spiritual world, that light is one.

[ismaili103]

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

2) We know who is the Pir of the time, It's Hazir Imam but for the rest of 3 babs, we can only assume. We have 5 possibilities for the the position of the next Imam, we don't know who will be the next Imam, but one of from those five (3 Sons and 2 Grandsons), one is the 2nd bab of the time and his soul is merged with the Universal Soul.

"3 sons and 2 grand sons", Please refer to PREAMBLE article 3. I quote," It being the absolute prerogative of the Imam of the time to appoint his successor from amongst any of his MALE descendants whether they be sons or REMOTER ISSUE.

Currently we have 5 Possibilities and it's a FACT, Imam has three sons and 2 grandsons. Next Imam could be Prince Ali Mohd or Prince Hussain or Rahim or Sinan or Irfan, we don't know. Imam knows better but as I said, we can only assume.

[ismaili103]

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

3) All four are the manifestation of the Universal Soul which means their individual soul do not exist anymore and it's merged with the Universal Soul and Universal Soul is One. Again for the female bab, we can assume. Princess Zahra could be the bab of Hazir Imam.

Did Hazar Imam declared Princess Zahra is one of the Baab, you wrote we assume. What about Princess Salima first wife of Hazar Imam, was she a Baab? or after divorce Baab title was taken away!!?

Again, I have clearly mentioned that we can ASSUME. You are free to assume who could be the female Bab of the Hazir Imam.

[ismaili103]

Are there only 4 functions of Universal soul you mentioned that's it!!

Can you elaborate the 4 functions you mentioned.
You wrote; 1. Pir of time. But at present Imam and Pir are one.
2. Next Imam. Can you tell who will be the next Imam?
3. Who is the female member. Is she a Pir or the soul already merged with Universal soul.
4. It was not only Salman Farsi, but in past 1400 + years there should be unlimited, so unlimited Baabs.

4) Salman Farsi was the one of the four bab of Imam Ali, as I said above, every Imam have four babs and one of them is the murid. But, only one murid can be the bab at a time, once that murid dies physically, other murid who might have reached the status of hujjat (3rd rank) becomes the fourth bab (2nd rank) of the Hazir Imam. Who are these murids? we don't know, Imam knows better but in our history we have info of these murids whose soul merged in the Universal Soul and they become the fourth bab of the Imam of the time e.g.
Not to mention, Wazir Ismail Ganji and Pir Sabzali who reached the status of Pir after their death i.e. their individual soul annihilated into Universal Soul after they die.

Salman Farsi was from Ahl Bait therefore he became Baab. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah declared Wazir Muhammad Remu, Wazir Basariya, and Wazir Rahim were amongst Ahl Bait, but Imam never declared who was Baab or ALL 3 were Baabs. What about Wazir Ismail Gangji and Pir Subz Ali, did they not deserved the rank of Baabs?

It's the other way around, Salman Farsi reached the level of Bab that's why he was declared as member of Ahl Al Bayt. He was not even a muslim in the first place let alone from the Ahl al Bayt, he was a Zoroastrian initially.

Can you please quote the farman, talika in which Imam Sulatan Mohd Shah A.S declared all 3 as Bab.

Pir Sabz Ali received the title of Pir after his death which shows that he merged with Universal Soul after his death not in his life. He could be Hujjah in his life just like Syedna Pir Nasir Khusrow.

[swamidada]

3) All four are the manifestation of the Universal Soul which means their individual soul do not exist anymore and it's merged with the Universal Soul and Universal Soul is One. Again for the female bab, we can assume. Princess Zahra could be the bab of Hazir Imam.

Did Hazar Imam declared Princess Zahra is one of the Baab, you wrote we assume. What about Princess Salima first wife of Hazar Imam, was she a Baab? or after divorce Baab title was taken away!!?

Again, I have clearly mentioned that we can ASSUME. You are free to assume who could be the female Bab of the Hazir Imam.

In discussion of HAQA'IQ there is no room for assumption or suppose. Who is male or female Baab in time of Shah Karim?

[swamidada]

2) We know who is the Pir of the time, It's Hazir Imam but for the rest of 3 babs, we can only assume. We have 5 possibilities for the the position of the next Imam, we don't know who will be the next Imam, but one of from those five (3 Sons and 2 Grandsons), one is the 2nd bab of the time and his soul is merged with the Universal Soul.

"3 sons and 2 grand sons", Please refer to PREAMBLE article 3. I quote," It being the absolute prerogative of the Imam of the time to appoint his successor from amongst any of his MALE descendants whether they be sons or REMOTER ISSUE.

Currently we have 5 Possibilities and it's a FACT, Imam has three sons and 2 grandsons. Next Imam could be Prince Ali Mohd or Prince Hussain or Rahim or Sinan or Irfan, we don't know. Imam knows better but as I said, we can only assume.

You did not shed light on " REMOTER ISSUE".

[swamidada]

4) Salman Farsi was the one of the four bab of Imam Ali, as I said above, every Imam have four babs and one of them is the murid. But, only one murid can be the bab at a time, once that murid dies physically, other murid who might have reached the status of hujjat (3rd rank) becomes the fourth bab (2nd rank) of the Hazir Imam. Who are these murids? we don't know, Imam knows better but in our history we have info of these murids whose soul merged in the Universal Soul and they become the fourth bab of the Imam of the time e.g.
Not to mention, Wazir Ismail Ganji and Pir Sabzali who reached the status of Pir after their death i.e. their individual soul annihilated into Universal Soul after they die.

Salman Farsi was from Ahl Bait therefore he became Baab. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah declared Wazir Muhammad Remu, Wazir Basariya, and Wazir Rahim were amongst Ahl Bait, but Imam never declared who was Baab or ALL 3 were Baabs. What about Wazir Ismail Gangji and Pir Subz Ali, did they not deserved the rank of Baabs?

It's the other way around, Salman Farsi reached the level of Bab that's why he was declared as member of Ahl Al Bayt. He was not even a muslim in the first place let alone from the Ahl al Bayt, he was a Zoroastrian initially.

Can you please quote the farman, talika in which Imam Sulatan Mohd Shah A.S declared all 3 as Bab.

Pir Sabz Ali received the title of Pir after his death which shows that he merged with Universal Soul after his death not in his life. He could be Hujjah in his life just like Syedna Pir Nasir Khusrow.

Let me correct you first. You wrote," Salman was not even a Muslim in the first place...". Salman accepted Islam in Medina with help of Mowla Ali.

Regarding your query, you asked me," In which Taliqa or Farman Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah declared all 3 as Baabs". Please read my quote again and again, I wrote," ...but Imam NEVER declared who was Baab or all 3 were Baabs". It was my simple statement.

You wrote," Pir Sabz Ali could be Hujjah". Did Imam of the time declared Sabz Ali Saheb as a Hujjah, we have no proof. If Subz Ali was Hujjah then what about Wazir Ismail Gangji?

[swamidada]

1) Yes, Hazir Imam is both Pir and Imam of the time, that's why Imam blesses us with maternal and paternal blessings. In essence, Light of Muhammad and Ali are not separate from each other, they can function separately at time (Pre Imam Sultan Mohd Shah A.S era) but in reality they are not separate from each other. So, current Imam is also one of the 4 Babs of the time and he makes farman in the capacity of the Pir.

I have objection on your statement; "Current Imam is also one of the 4 Baabs of the time". My question is then who other 3 Baabs are as 3 Imams at current time. Do not forget that one Pir was a book. Should that book be considered Baab?

Pir Pandiyat-e-Jawanmardi was written by Imam himself, Imam Mustansirbillah III took the authority of Piratan after the death of Pir Tajuddin and sent the Book of his Farman to the Jamat of Sub Continent and asked the Jamat to take guidance from it. As I mentioned earlier, Light of Ali and Muhammad are not separate from each other, it's one light, no matter if that light manifest in two different beings but in reality, in spiritual world, that light is one.

You dodged my question. I know Noor of Ali and Muhammad is same. My simple question was," Is the book Pindiyaat be called Baab?"

[swamidada]

In Fatimid era the basic form of the Ismaili da‘wah hierarchy was as follows:
1. Imam
2. Bab (Gate)
3. Hujjah (Proof)
4. Da‘i (Summoner)
5. Ma’dhun Akbar (Senior Teacher)
6. Ma’dhun Asghar (Junior Teacher)
7. Mustajib (Respondent or Initiate)"

In post Alamout period the hierarchy of da'wah was changed as follow:
1. 'Aql e kul
2. Nafs e kul
3. Natiq
4. Asas
5. Imam
6. Baab
7. Hujjah
8. Da'i e Mutlaq
9. Da'i e Makfuf
10. Maazun e Akbar
11. Maazun e Asghar
12. Mustajeeb

In subcontinent GINANIC era, there is no mention of above da'wah hierarchies in Ginans.

In modern era Ismailis do not follow da'wah hierarchy as Hazar Imam discontinued conversion.

[swamidada]

Alwaiz Abu Ali has written in his book "Ismaili Tariqah";

THE IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH (THE PROOF OF GOD) AND THE KHALIFATULLAH (THE VICEREGENT OF GOD); THE PIR IS HUJJATUL IMAM AND KHALIFATUR RASUL. THE PIR IS LINK BETWEEN THE JAMAIT AND THE IMAM. (Page # 132)

[ismaili103]

Did Hazar Imam declared Princess Zahra is one of the Baab, you wrote we assume. What about Princess Salima first wife of Hazar Imam, was she a Baab? or after divorce Baab title was taken away!!?

Again, I have clearly mentioned that we can ASSUME. You are free to assume who could be the female Bab of the Hazir Imam.

In discussion of HAQA'IQ there is no room for assumption or suppose. Who is male or female Baab in time of Shah Karim?

There is a room for assumption in esoteric deen, assumptions is a sign of using your intellect and our religion is a religion of intellect. You hear/read then you assume, then you interpret and finally you come to Haqaiq.

This is my interpretation that Princess Zahra is the female bab of the Hazir Imam A.S, you are free with your interpretations.

[ismaili103]

"3 sons and 2 grand sons", Please refer to PREAMBLE article 3. I quote," It being the absolute prerogative of the Imam of the time to appoint his successor from amongst any of his MALE descendants whether they be sons or REMOTER ISSUE.

Currently we have 5 Possibilities and it's a FACT, Imam has three sons and 2 grandsons. Next Imam could be Prince Ali Mohd or Prince Hussain or Rahim or Sinan or Irfan, we don't know. Imam knows better but as I said, we can only assume.

You did not shed light on " REMOTER ISSUE".

I have mentioned Prince Sinan and Irfan in my discussion. Bottom line is Imam knows better who will be the next Imam.

[ismaili103]

Salman Farsi was from Ahl Bait therefore he became Baab. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah declared Wazir Muhammad Remu, Wazir Basariya, and Wazir Rahim were amongst Ahl Bait, but Imam never declared who was Baab or ALL 3 were Baabs. What about Wazir Ismail Gangji and Pir Subz Ali, did they not deserved the rank of Baabs?

It's the other way around, Salman Farsi reached the level of Bab that's why he was declared as member of Ahl Al Bayt. He was not even a muslim in the first place let alone from the Ahl al Bayt, he was a Zoroastrian initially.

Can you please quote the farman, talika in which Imam Sulatan Mohd Shah A.S declared all 3 as Bab.

Pir Sabz Ali received the title of Pir after his death which shows that he merged with Universal Soul after his death not in his life. He could be Hujjah in his life just like Syedna Pir Nasir Khusrow.

Let me correct you first. You wrote," Salman was not even a Muslim in the first place...". Salman accepted Islam in Medina with help of Mowla Ali.

What's wrong in my statement, I have mentioned clearly that he was a Zoroastrian "INITIALLY". Everyone knows he later converted in to Islam.

Regarding your query, you asked me," In which Taliqa or Farman Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah declared all 3 as Baabs". Please read my quote again and again, I wrote," ...but Imam NEVER declared who was Baab or all 3 were Baabs". It was my simple statement.

You wrote," Pir Sabz Ali could be Hujjah". Did Imam of the time declared Sabz Ali Saheb as a Hujjah, we have no proof. If Subz Ali was Hujjah then what about Wazir Ismail Gangji?

Imam don't has to declare who is his Bab or Hujjah currently, sometimes we have to use our intellect and there is no harm in it. Quran, Ginans and Farman are the example of how we have to use our intellect to interpret it.

It's my interpretation that if Imam declared Sabz Ali as Pir Sabz Ali after his death then it's a "ISHARAH" from Imam that his soul merged with the light of Muhammad.

Similarly, In one of the farman, Imam Sultan Mohd Shah A.S has mentioned that Syedna Pir Nasir Khusrow reached "Asal Ma Wasil", we all know he was a Hujjah in his life time but this farman from Imam A.S is a sign that after his death, his soul merged with the Light of Muhammad.

[ismaili103]

In Fatimid era the basic form of the Ismaili da‘wah hierarchy was as follows:
1. Imam
2. Bab (Gate)
3. Hujjah (Proof)
4. Da‘i (Summoner)
5. Ma’dhun Akbar (Senior Teacher)
6. Ma’dhun Asghar (Junior Teacher)
7. Mustajib (Respondent or Initiate)"

In post Alamout period the hierarchy of da'wah was changed as follow:
1. 'Aql e kul
2. Nafs e kul
3. Natiq
4. Asas
5. Imam
6. Baab
7. Hujjah
8. Da'i e Mutlaq
9. Da'i e Makfuf
10. Maazun e Akbar
11. Maazun e Asghar
12. Mustajeeb

In subcontinent GINANIC era, there is no mention of above da'wah hierarchies in Ginans.

In modern era Ismailis do not follow da'wah hierarchy as Hazar Imam discontinued conversion.

I believe your interpretation is that Spiritual hierarchy and hierarchy in the World of Faith are separate from each other while my interpretation is that hierarchy in the world of faith is the manifestation of the spiritual hierarchy, and if later is the case then in every era, the manifestation of that hierarchy must have present in the world all the time.

Our dais and Hujjahs have interpreted Imam as Sun, Bab as Moon and ranks below them as Stars. At night when Sun is not shining, Moon and Stars are visible but in noon when Sun is at his peak intensity, neither Moon nor Stars are visible. The reason why Imam took the authority of Piratan with himself is because Noon (Qiyammah) is near.

Quran mentions that there are signs for everyone in creation of the Universe, changing of nigh and day etc. Not to mention, Imam Sultan Mohd Shah A.S has mentioned in his memoirs that this Universe is the Ayats for Allah. Ayat literally means Signs.

I would not use the word conversion, rather I will use the word Dawah and Hazir Imam A.S has declared all of us his Dai's. It's now our responsibility to Dawah of Ismailism through our actions so that people from other community take interest in our deen and our esoteric interpretations of Islam.