The holy salwaat.

[swamidada]

This topic of Imam talking to 2 audiences in a different way has been discussed over and over. I can not allowed this to repeat again and again in each topic of doctrinal value. Imam can not talk of Quantum physics to the students of pre-school level.

There are many non doctrinal issues debated in doctrinal thread. I am not interested in prolonging debate. Why in first place Admin allows such kind of statements which goes against your thinking. The reference quoted by Chaturji is taken from; "Faith and Practice in Islamic Traditions, vol. 1 and 2 (Student Reader). London: Islamic Publications Limited for The Institute of Ismaili Studies, 2015". In other words IIS is derailing students to think other way.
Was Imam Muiz audience of pre school level? Admin "housila rakho", be open minded.

[kmaherali]

Was Imam Muiz audience of pre school level? YEs

Yes Yes Yes Imam Muiz was a khalif and therefore he would have addressed as a khalif and would have had audience the majority of which would have been Sunni shariatis. Shariatis are at a pre-school level as far as faith is concerned

[swamidada]

Was Imam Muiz audience of pre school level? YEs

Yes Yes Yes Imam Muiz was a khalif and therefore he would have addressed as a khalif and would have had audience the majority of which would have been Sunni shariatis. Shariatis are at a pre-school level as far as faith is concerned

Some passing remarks:
you wrote," would have had audience.......would have been Sunni Shariatis...." by writing 'would have been' means you are not sure and you don't have any reference.
At time of Imam Muiz majority of public was following Maliki and Shafai Tariqa, it is not possible that followers of imam Malik should have participated in Eid Namaz of Shii Fatimi Tariqa. It is, as we see Devbandi will not say Namaz in the imamat of Barelvi or Shia imam. Currently Ismaili Khoja community follow Fatimi Tariqa in subcontinent and Middle East but in Africa, Europe, USA, and Canada Ismaili Khoja follow old Tariqa given by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and so far they have not adopted Fatimi Tariqa given by Shah Karim Hazar Imam.

[kmaherali]

you wrote," would have had audience.......would have been Sunni Shariatis...." by writing 'would have been' means you are not sure and you don't have any reference.
At time of Imam Muiz majority of public was following Maliki and Shafai Tariqa, it is not possible that followers of imam Malik should have participated in Eid Namaz of Shii Fatimi Tariqa.

You mentioned that it was a public Eid event. Imam Muizz addressed this occasion as a khalif and not as the Imam of the Ismailis. The audience was a public audience the majority would of course have been Sunnis.

[Admin]

in Africa, Europe, USA, and Canada Ismaili Khoja follow old Tariqa given by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and so far they have not adopted Fatimi Tariqa given by Shah Karim Hazar Imam.

Fatimid Tariqah was for Fatimid times. We have an Imam of the Time that guides today in our times ALL Ismailis as Imam and Pir including "Khoja" Ismailis with whom some seems to have a well entrenched hate that permeate all your postings..

[swamidada]

in Africa, Europe, USA, and Canada Ismaili Khoja follow old Tariqa given by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and so far they have not adopted Fatimi Tariqa given by Shah Karim Hazar Imam.

Fatimid Tariqah was for Fatimid times. We have an Imam of the Time that guides today in our times ALL Ismailis as Imam and Pir including "Khoja" Ismailis with whom some seems to have a well entrenched hate that permeate all your postings..

I do not hate any one including Ismaili Khojas, in fact I have business connections with them. You and Kmaherali did not address my question. Why Ismailis living in western countries and Africa still following guidance given by MSMS, when present Imam has changed it? For example in 1977 Hazar Imam gave new Eid Namaz, Janaza Namaz, and Ziyarat and dubbed it as Fatimi Tariqa.

Past couple of years, I have seen many Muslim bloggers including Indian Hindu bloggers and Ismaili turncoats are taunting, mocking, criticizing Ismailism and calling it CULT AND AGAKHANISM. They have posted fake, tampered, doctored photos of Imam and his family. What steps top Ismaili leadership has taken to address the situation (just few letters from attorney) . Few Ismaili TURNCOATS are openly challenging Hazar Imam. Where are Ismaili research scholars and missionaries, Imam is spending 100+ million dollars on IIS AND ITREB, WHAT IS OUTCOME ONLY FEW TRANSLATIONS AND ABRIDGED BOOKS!! Admin, what scholars like you and your right and left have done so far in this respect, or you will say it is none of ismaili.net's headache. I have seen only khalil Andani in couple of episodes debating with them. I have seen hundreds of Ismaili youth have been carried away by social media propaganda. I have seen their comments on chats. ISMAILI LEADERSHIP AND SCHOLARS WAKE UP. If Ismaili top leadership had taken proper steps quickly to implement Imam's guidance earlier then today we should not have been in such dire situation.

[kmaherali]

I do not hate any one including Ismaili Khojas, in fact I have business connections with them. You and Kmaherali did not address my question. Why Ismailis living in western countries and Africa still following guidance given by MSMS, when present Imam has changed it? For example in 1977 Hazar Imam gave new Eid Namaz, Janaza Namaz, and Ziyarat and dubbed it as Fatimi Tariqa.

Please can you provide documentary evidence of this. When and how was the guidance given?

Past couple of years, I have seen many Muslim bloggers including Indian Hindu bloggers and Ismaili turncoats are taunting, mocking, criticizing Ismailism and calling it CULT AND AGAKHANISM. They have posted fake, tampered, doctored photos of Imam and his family. What steps top Ismaili leadership has taken to address the situation (just few letters from attorney) . Few Ismaili TURNCOATS are openly challenging Hazar Imam. Where are Ismaili research scholars and missionaries, Imam is spending 100+ million dollars on IIS AND ITREB, WHAT IS OUTCOME ONLY FEW TRANSLATIONS AND ABRIDGED BOOKS!! Admin, what scholars like you and your right and left have done so far in this respect, or you will say it is none of ismaili.net's headache. I have seen only khalil Andani in couple of episodes debating with them. I have seen hundreds of Ismaili youth have been carried away by social media propaganda. I have seen their comments on chats. ISMAILI LEADERSHIP AND SCHOLARS WAKE UP. If Ismaili top leadership had taken proper steps quickly to implement Imam's guidance earlier then today we should not have been in such dire situation.

Ismailism is an esoteric tradition and it will never ever be universally accepted or understood. MSMS has said in his Memoirs:

Often persecuted and oppressed, the faith of my ancestors was never destroyed; at times it flourished as in the epoch of the Fatimite Khalifs, at times it was obscure and little understood.

https://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

[swamidada]

I do not hate any one including Ismaili Khojas, in fact I have business connections with them. You and Kmaherali did not address my question. Why Ismailis living in western countries and Africa still following guidance given by MSMS, when present Imam has changed it? For example in 1977 Hazar Imam gave new Eid Namaz, Janaza Namaz, and Ziyarat and dubbed it as Fatimi Tariqa.

Please can you provide documentary evidence of this. When and how was the guidance given?

Past couple of years, I have seen many Muslim bloggers including Indian Hindu bloggers and Ismaili turncoats are taunting, mocking, criticizing Ismailism and calling it CULT AND AGAKHANISM. They have posted fake, tampered, doctored photos of Imam and his family. What steps top Ismaili leadership has taken to address the situation (just few letters from attorney) . Few Ismaili TURNCOATS are openly challenging Hazar Imam. Where are Ismaili research scholars and missionaries, Imam is spending 100+ million dollars on IIS AND ITREB, WHAT IS OUTCOME ONLY FEW TRANSLATIONS AND ABRIDGED BOOKS!! Admin, what scholars like you and your right and left have done so far in this respect, or you will say it is none of ismaili.net's headache. I have seen only khalil Andani in couple of episodes debating with them. I have seen hundreds of Ismaili youth have been carried away by social media propaganda. I have seen their comments on chats. ISMAILI LEADERSHIP AND SCHOLARS WAKE UP. If Ismaili top leadership had taken proper steps quickly to implement Imam's guidance earlier then today we should not have been in such dire situation.

Ismailism is an esoteric tradition and it will never ever be universally accepted or understood. MSMS has said in his Memoirs:

Often persecuted and oppressed, the faith of my ancestors was never destroyed; at times it flourished as in the epoch of the Fatimite Khalifs, at times it was obscure and little understood.

https://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

Hazar Imam summon leadership and mostly give Hidayat verbally to explain jamaits. There were some issues which leadership dare not to communicate with jamaits. Once in Karachi, I asked a top leader about an issue. His reply was he (Imam) is not giving us in writing and we can't face jamaits. Let me give an example, in 1964 during a meeting with presidents of Ismailia Associations in Karachi when President Tejpar asked Imam to explain about meaning of ALIULLAH in 2nd part of Dua. Hazar Imam replied it does not mean "Ali is Allah" but it means "Ali is from Allah", this never explained to jamaits. Even Hidayat of Imam regarding Ginans and Farmans of MSMS was neglected in many jurisdictions. Imam made Farman about Namaz in 2008 and said in one year it is ready to go. 14 years passed still ITREB leadership is sleeping. MSMS gave important Hidayat to Ismailia Associations from 1950 to 1956, like he made changes in Old Dua, and first time he introduced ALIULLAH in 1950, which he kept in new Dua also. MSMS's Hidayat some time was verbal and some times in written form. Long ago I learnt that there was a file containing MSMS's Hidayats about religious affairs in Ismailia Association Karachi, I tried to look into that file but always given 'BOL Bachan'. I am sure such file still exists.

Regarding your second part of reply; My question is not about Ismailism is an esoteric tradition, but it is about NEGATIVE AND FALSE PROPAGANDA on social media and U TUBE which is affecting our youth and they are leaving Ismailism, and in fact have left in thousands in past few years. These ex Ismailis are more active on U TUBE and are openly criticizing Hazar Imam and our Tariqa. They said when we asked questions, the missionaries, research scholars of ITREB are unable to satisfy us, and when we counter questions they are annoyed. Either our ISMAILI tariqa teachings in RC's are weak, teachers are not capable of properly handling questions, who to blame. The non Ismailis as well ex Ismailis are operating from Pakistan, India, USA, Canada, London, Australia, THEY ARE GETTING BOLDER AND BOLDER. Why don't we have a panel of learned scholars be at IIS or ITREB to answer these people. WAKE UP LEADERSHIP, DON'T ACT LIKE OSTRICH.

[kmaherali]

Hazar Imam summon leadership and mostly give Hidayat verbally to explain jamaits.

Important matters such as the changes in the rites and ceremonies are always communicated through Talika. For example there were changes due to COVID 19 which MHI communicated through Talika. Important matters which relate to the practice cannot be relied upon through verbal communication.

Why don't we have a panel of learned scholars be at IIS or ITREB to answer these people. WAKE UP LEADERSHIP, DON'T ACT LIKE OSTRICH.

Our faith is a personal tradition and in this respect, the one who has a correct approach and intention, will be guided to the truth. Our institutions will never be able to provide all the answers. Hence there is a need of personal search and correct attitude towards knowledge. There are many sources beyond our institutions. MSMS has stated in his Memoirs:

What has been my own policy with my followers? Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you cannot, if you do not accept its tenets, remain within it and claim to "reform" it. You can abandon those tenets, but you cannot try to change them and still protest that you belong to the particular sect that holds them. Many people have left the Ismaili faith, just as other have joined it throughout the ages. About a score of people out of many millions-a small group in Karachi and in India-pretended to be Ismailis but called themselves "reformers". The true Ismailis immediately excommunicated them. There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith; that faith has remained the same and must remain the same. Those who have not believed in it have rightly left it; we bear them no ill-will and respect them for their sincerity.

https://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

[Admin]

You and Kmaherali did not address my question. Why Ismailis living in western countries and Africa still following guidance given by MSMS, when present Imam has changed it?

The Farman made to Canadian Jamat when it settled in the Western World was to follow the same rites, rituals, tradition and ceremonies as in Africa, if you have a grudge about this, please correspond directly with the Imam and he may be able to put some sense in your mind. Your question was not replied because it was based on a flawed premises as always (that you are right and the Imam is wrong)

Any posting contradicting what our Imam said will be deleted. Read properly the above post.

[swamidada]

You and Kmaherali did not address my question. Why Ismailis living in western countries and Africa still following guidance given by MSMS, when present Imam has changed it?

The Farman made to Canadian Jamat when it settled in the Western World was to follow the same rites, rituals, tradition and ceremonies as in Africa....

You keep deleting my posts. I asked you a simple question, please post the Farman or Talika in this regard. If you don't have just mention you do not have such Farman, thanks.

[kmaherali]

You keep deleting my posts. I asked you a simple question, please post the Farman or Talika in this regard. If you don't have just mention you do not have such Farman, thanks.

Here is the Farman

I want you to be aware that our traditions, the practice of our faith must and will , Inshallah , continue in Canada as it did when My spiritual children, many of you here today, or your families moved from India or Pakistan to East Africa , and now from East Africa to Canada. These traditions, this unity, the strength of the practice of our faith is something which must continue in Canada, and there is no reason which from within our Jamat nor from outside can make changes in the maintenance of these traditions. (Vancouver, November 14th 1978)

[swamidada]

You keep deleting my posts. I asked you a simple question, please post the Farman or Talika in this regard. If you don't have just mention you do not have such Farman, thanks.

Here is the Farman

I want you to be aware that our traditions, the practice of our faith must and will , Inshallah , continue in Canada as it did when My spiritual children, many of you here today, or your families moved from India or Pakistan to East Africa , and now from East Africa to Canada. These traditions, this unity, the strength of the practice of our faith is something which must continue in Canada, and there is no reason which from within our Jamat nor from outside can make changes in the maintenance of these traditions. (Vancouver, November 14th 1978)

Thanks for quoting Farman. I found it in KIZ page # 433.
Tawhid, Risalat, Imamat, ethical values; NO ISSUE. Time changes so do the Farmans.
Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said," MY FARMANS IN YEARS TO COME WILL BE QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THE PRESENT ONES. THE WHOLE WORLD WILL CHANGE. THEREFORE YOU SHOULD OBEY THE FARMAN OF THE IMAM OF THE TIME. AS THE TIME CHNAGES SO DO THE FARMAN CHANGE".
I insisted there should be UNIFORMITY in rites and rituals as Imam is same.

[deleted by Admin]!

[Admin]

There are countries where there is not an iota of freedom of practice and there are worse countries where there is no tolerance and there are those who say diversity is a blessing and there are those who say uniformity with 14 century old mentality is a must. We Ismailis are lucky to have Hazar Imam that guides us to live in our time according to the place and circumstances that are different in time and in geography. As I said any attempt to contradict our Imam will be deleted with pleasure.

[kmaherali]

Thanks for quoting Farman. I found it in KIZ page # 433.

TIME. AS THE TIME CHNAGES SO DO THE FARMAN CHANGE".
I insisted there should be UNIFORMITY in rites and rituals as Imam is same.

Since you have the KIZ with you please read the Farmans made in Mwanza October 8 1988 and in Nairobi on December 11th 1988 wherein MHI explains the diversity of historical traditions within the Jamats and his role in this context. There cannot be uniformity due to the diversity of languages and historical traditions.

[swamidada]

There are countries where there is not an iota of freedom of practice and there are worse countries where there is no tolerance and there are those who say diversity is a blessing and there are those who say uniformity with 14 century old mentality is a must. We Ismailis are lucky to have Hazar Imam that guides us to live in our time according to the place and circumstances that are different in time and in geography. As I said any attempt to contradict our Imam will be deleted with pleasure.

You are not getting my point. My argument is about uniformity in rites and rituals in Ismaili Tariqah. I gave facts and figures and proofs but as per your habit you deleted my posts. There is no fairness on ismaili.net. You think you are right and others are duds. Because of your arrogance and one sidedness many contributors quit your blog. You blame CONSERVATIVE MULLAS but your are worst than them. You are still living in era of MSMS. Times change Farmans change. UNITY IS BECAUSE OF UNIFORMITY, OUR IMAM IS ONE AND SAME THEREFORE TARIQAH SHOULD BE UNIFORM AND SAME. In Mwanza, Tanzania Imam said,"... but the fact is that the Tariqah and the practice of Tariqah must be increasingly united...".
KAALEY BHOJAN JAMIYA
TENA AAJEY SHA WAKHAN(N) RE

[swamidada]

Thanks for quoting Farman. I found it in KIZ page # 433.

TIME. AS THE TIME CHNAGES SO DO THE FARMAN CHANGE".
I insisted there should be UNIFORMITY in rites and rituals as Imam is same.

Since you have the KIZ with you please read the Farmans made in Mwanza October 8 1988 and in Nairobi on December 11th 1988 wherein MHI explains the diversity of historical traditions within the Jamats and his role in this context. There cannot be uniformity due to the diversity of languages and historical traditions.

Let me quote a paragraph from Farman during Tanzania visit. In Mwanza on October 8, 1988 Imam said," As we move to the end of 20th century, we have a number of issues to address. What are those issues? First of all, there has to be a clear vision of the practice of our Tariqah in modern world. Of course, when you use the the word modern, you apply it actually improperly, because any person who lives in his time will refer to his time as a modern world. But the concept of modernity does not stop. BUT THE FACT IS THAT THE TARIQAH AND THE PRACTICE OF THE TARIQAH MUST BE INCREASINGLY UNITED, INCREASINGLY UNDERSTOOD AND INCREASINGLY SHARED AMONG AMONGST THE JAMAIT IN ALL DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD".
Hazar Imam clearly mentioned, TARIQAH AND THE PRACTICE OF THE TARIQAH MUST BE INCREASINGLY UNITED..."

UNITY IS BECAUSE OF UNIFORMITY. I believe Tawhid, Risalat, Imamat, Ethical values are settled issues in Ismailism, my argument is about uniformity in basic rites and rituals.

[Admin]

You are confused. Unity brings strength, uniformity brings weakness. Diversity brings strength. Unity is not because of uniformity, this is not only false but it is a dangerous concept promoted by Wahabis and Mullas. Unity is because of the Imam.

[kmaherali]

my argument is about uniformity in basic rites and rituals.

The unity is not in basic rites and rituals because they are based on different cultural and linguistic background but unity is in the interpretation of the traditions. MHI says in his Mwanza Farman:

It is one brotherhood, one Jamat, following one tradition of the esoteric interpretation of the faith. These principles must be upheld around the world. The participation of man's intellect in the practice of his faith, the individual search for enlightenment and happiness and the balance between the material and the spiritual. These are the premises on which the Jamat must interpret and practice its faith.

[swamidada]

Unity is because of the Imam.

Yes unity is because of the Imam BUT ONLY when Imam is present amongst followers for a day or two, when Imam leaves they start pulling down pants, shorts and salwars of each other, and unity is doomed.
When you are confused you blame Wahabis. Ismailis recite YA WAHAB in Tasbih after morning prayers. Are they Wahabis???

[swamidada]

my argument is about uniformity in basic rites and rituals.

The unity is not in basic rites and rituals because they are based on different cultural and linguistic background but unity is in the interpretation of the traditions. MHI says in his Mwanza Farman:

It is one brotherhood, one Jamat, following one tradition of the esoteric interpretation of the faith. These principles must be upheld around the world. The participation of man's intellect in the practice of his faith, the individual search for enlightenment and happiness and the balance between the material and the spiritual. These are the premises on which the Jamat must interpret and practice its faith.

Imam's Farman needs explanation. Esoteric is because of exoteric, if there is no exoteric you can't define esoteric. If there is no word, you can't define its meaning. Religions do not thrive on only esoteric matters. I stand by my words," Unity is because of uniformity". For example, while reciting Dua in JK every one sit in line, and lines after line. it won't happen 3 sit in one line, 10 in one corner or 7 in other corner. It is not appreciable that Mukhi give 10 duas to one and 2 to next one in line. In Eid Namaz, Janaza Namaz there are lines. It is called uniformity and that is symbol of unity and discipline.
Languages and cultural issues can be diverse but religious affairs should always be same in community, like Dua is same for all Ismailis.

[kmaherali]

Imam's Farman needs explanation. Esoteric is because of exoteric, if there is no exoteric you can't define esoteric. If there is no word, you can't define its meaning.

An esoteric tradition does not imply that there is no exoteric aspect. There will still be rites and ceremonies but different for different cultures and languages. The unity however is in the the esoteric principles that the Imam has outlined in the interpretation.