Religion of Hazir imams children????

[Aly_shallwani]

I have o&shy;ne confusion about the children of imam! that are they ismaili or o&shy;nly muslims?because i've heard that they recite Dua,<BR>namaz and also study Quran ,i was really in my thoughts when my cousin asked me this question <BR>because Hazirimam is their zahiri Father than how could that pray to their father & wat about <BR>Mowla's wife?

[kmaherali]

In my opinion MHI's children are all Ismailis. Our Pirs who have shown us the Path have all been from Ahl-e- Bayt. They would have the wisdom to understand the duality of his nature viz physical/spiritual father and treat him accordingly. However, they are not normal spiritual children like you and me - they are elevated murids.

As for his wives, they are normally non Ismaili Muslims unless they are from Ahl-e-bayt, examples - Hazarat Bibi Fatimah and Pir Sarkar Mata Salaamat (44th Pir) who was a daughter of Pir Mirza Mohammed Baqir and the wife of 45th Imam Shah Khalilullah.

[zrajani]

kmaherali: Must agree with you. Hazar Imam's children have to be Ismaili, it's very simple:

1. They cannot be Sunnis -> Sunni's do not believe in an Imam.
2. They cannot be another sect of Shia's -> Again they do not believe in our Imam.

Further to that, as children of the Imam, they would of course follow and believe what he teaches and preaches. The way I see it is, Hazar Imam is Islam, and if we look at it right from the beginning of time, had there not been any splits or arguments, all Muslims would be "Ismailis" today.

[zrajani]

Also, I am sure the wives of the Imam are also ones that have converted to being Ismaili. The way I see it is, his family must marry outside of the religion, because if they were to marry an Ismaili, it would certainly create a stir within our community and every mother or father would want their child to eventually marry one of Hazar Imam's children. So to be fair to everyone and to prevent any fights or arguments or problems, they all marry non-Ismailis.

[kmaherali]

Also, I am sure the wives of the Imam are also ones that have converted to being Ismaili.

I do not think the non Ismaili wives convert to being Ismailis. They remain non Ismailis although they may play an important part in our community as Begum.

[kandani]

I agree with KMaherali.

I think the wives never formally convert, meaning, they do not take the Bayat of the Imam. However, after Imam SMS died, his widow took the Bayat of Hazar Imam.

As for the children/family, they may or may not have taken the Bayat of the Imam.

For example, when Prince Sadrudin passed away, the community performed Ismaili funeral rites...which is an indication that he had pledged Bayat to the Imam and was an Ismaili.

As for the all the members of Imam's family being exalted souls...there is no way to tell. Sometimes, sons have falsely tried to claim Imamat for themselves.

Read Pir Shihabudin Shah's True Meaning of Religion for commentary of this.

As for the religion of the Imam, I like to think that Imam practices the Primordial, Perenniel Din, the Din of Abraham the Hanif. Imam SMS and Hazar Imam have talked about "Our Faith" or "Our Din".

I think whereas the Murids / Spiritual Children of the Imam are on the station of Tariqat and Haqiqat, the Imam and Pir are at the level of Marifat - the highest and complete stage of the Din.

Just my thoughts though.

[kmaherali]

However, after Imam SMS died, his widow took the Bayat of Hazar Imam.

This is very interesting! When did it happen? Was it immediately after Imam SMS passed away or some time later? I am trying to place this information in the context of other anecdotes about Mata Salamat.

[Aly_shallwani]

<P>Kandani can u tell that interesting waqea plz? bacause i have already checked anecdotes so can u write here!</P>[/quote]

[s786]

However, they are not normal spiritual children like you and me - they are elevated murids.

This can be disputed. If we look back at MSMS, his son (MHI's father) Price Alykhan was rather known as a "Playboy". Drinking, fornication, etc. are all against Islam. So how can we say that he too was an elevated murid? I think spritually all murids are equal and then we go from there. It would not be fair to say that simply because he is their material father, automatically they are elevated. Spritual father and material father, are two different things. Surely they are "lucky" to be born to the Imam of the time, but ultimately we are all looking for Batini deedar as opposed to Zaheri deedar.

Would I be right or wrong to say this?

Thanks

S786

[ShamsB]

However, they are not normal spiritual children like you and me - they are elevated murids.

This can be disputed. If we look back at MSMS, his son (MHI's father) Price Alykhan was rather known as a "Playboy". Drinking, fornication, etc. are all against Islam. So how can we say that he too was an elevated murid? I think spritually all murids are equal and then we go from there. It would not be fair to say that simply because he is their material father, automatically they are elevated. Spritual father and material father, are two different things. Surely they are "lucky" to be born to the Imam of the time, but ultimately we are all looking for Batini deedar as opposed to Zaheri deedar.

Would I be right or wrong to say this?

Thanks

S786

He drank and fornicated? and you have concrete evidence of that..not what you've read in Aly by slater or in Throne of Gold?
Prince Aly Khan for a long time was the Wali Ahad.. the Heir Apparent...
being known as a playboy and actually being one are two different things.

Shams

[kmaherali]

This can be disputed. If we look back at MSMS, his son (MHI's father) Price Alykhan was rather known as a "Playboy". Drinking, fornication, etc. are all against Islam. So how can we say that he too was an elevated murid? I think spritually all murids are equal and then we go from there. It would not be fair to say that simply because he is their material father, automatically they are elevated. Spritual father and material father, are two different things. Surely they are "lucky" to be born to the Imam of the time, but ultimately we are all looking for Batini deedar as opposed to Zaheri deedar.

Would I be right or wrong to say this?

Thanks

S786

Prince Alykhan might have been known as "Playboy" through hostile sources. However in our tradition he was regarded as an exalted soul. Did you know that he gave "BOL" to murids? Would the Imam of the time entrust a "playboy" with that kind of responsibility?For more on Prince Alykhan, you may want to go to Imamat Activities -> Prince Alykhan.

Generally the Imam's children are elevated (though the degree of elevation will vary) because they are all potentially Imams or Pirs.

In the book "Paradise of Submission" by Nasir al-Din Tusi (pg. 123) , Imam Hassan Ala Zikaris Salaam is quoted as saying "'We are the people of eternity'(quoting Imam Jaffer as sadiq).[The essential nature of the Imam will never change], even when he is a drop of sperm in the loins of his father, or [a fetus] in the womb of his mother."

From the above it is quite clear that from the Batini perspective, Imamat does not begin at the point of designation but at the point of conception.

An eight year old child cannot be declared Imam unless he is ready for it. In our history, our 48th Pir Agha Abul Hasan Shah was an infant when he was appointed Pir and murids payed homage to him.

[SunshineSerena]

Keep in mind people that HI always says that material and spiritual lives are different. Though we must maintain a balance, one is exclusive to the other. I.E what happens in his personal life does not reflect his teachings or Islam. As with the "playboy"; argument of Prince Alykhan.

Though we are not them so we still do not know the truth. Who really cares anyway.. we are still Ismailis today following the Imam and respecting the noorani families. End point.

[unnalhaq]

He drank and fornicated? and you have concrete evidence of that..not what you've read in Aly by slater or in Throne of Gold?
Prince Aly Khan for a long time was the Wali Ahad.. the Heir Apparent...
being known as a playboy and actually being one are two different things.

Shams

http://www.glamourgirlsofthesilverscree ... index.html

[s786]

Very interesting.

Quick questions:

How many wives did Price Aly Khan have at one time?

Also how many wives did Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah have at one time?

Thanks

S786

[star_munir]

According to Brief history of Ismailism : "Prince Aly Solomone Khan was the UNDOUBTELY THE BELOVED OF HIS FAMILY as well as of Jamats....when he visited Syria the jamat there want crazy in love after him.Very often he was sent by Holy Imam to represent Him for religious duties....He was fond of hunting, travelling and horse racing. On 18th of May he married Joan Yarde Buller ......Prince Aly was a great champion of Islam and never missed any opportunity to serve it and defend itHe had all his life contributed financially as well as physically to the cause of Islam

[unnalhaq]

According to Brief history of Ismailism : "Prince Aly Solomone Khan was the UNDOUBTELY THE BELOVED OF HIS FAMILY as well as of Jamats....when he visited Syria the jamat there want crazy in love after him.

That had lead to Syrians declaring the Prince Aly Khan the next Imam but later, once the news of the SMS's will reached there Prince Aly Khan publicly took byat from The Present Imam (his son).
Since the topic was introduced of Price Sadar-al-din's last rights and prayers in JK's one thing to note that was different form other Ismaili's Ziarit was that the prayers were to "Ya Rub-Ul-allamin..." insted of "Ya Noor Maw..." I think you get the point. Since it was mentioned that Price Sadar-Al-Din was Ismaili why the difference? If you know or noticed when there are prayers are conduted be it be EID or Janaza where wider Muslim community is in the congregation the prayers start with "Ya Rub-Ul-Allamin..."