Das Avatar

[mazharshah_1]

Regarding golden age, I quoted from an article. Which you confirmed by quoting Ginan. Of course this is meant symbolic form of peace without worries. As it is said, goat and a lion drank water from same pond, and lion not attacking weak animal for lunch.

You mean you don't agree with the articles that you post! That means you don't have conviction, you are posting for convenience and to create nuisance.

Are animals capable of higher consciousness that the Golden Age points to. The article says that people of Satya and Treta Yuga were deities. Were in the article does it say animals. Mind you, it is an article and not a poem so we are not talking about symbols.

That article I posted for general information. Mythical stories generally depend on symbols and allegorical explanations. The phrase 'Golden Age' is allegorical and not 100% real. None of any society in any given period of time be 100% pure without crime and disturbance. No ancient culture is without its mythology. Myths are folklore, folk tales, folk stories of legends. Modern brain will hardly accept that God will come to planet Earth in forms of fish, tortroise, pig to save Mother Earth and fist fight with devils.

[kmaherali]

That article I posted for general information. Mythical stories generally depend on symbols and allegorical explanations. The phrase 'Golden Age' is allegorical and not 100% real. None of any society in any given period of time be 100% pure without crime and disturbance. No ancient culture is without its mythology. Myths are folklore, folk tales, folk stories of legends. Modern brain will hardly accept that God will come to planet Earth in forms of fish, tortroise, pig to save Mother Earth and fist fight with devils.

Normally when someone posts an article, it is the case that he agrees with it and does not post for the sake of posting to mislead.The article itself did not portray the Golden Age as a myth but rather it presented it as a fact. Of course no age is perfect and hence the need for Avatars to assume appropriate forms to bring about positive changes. God being God can assume any form suitable to the needs of the time.

[mazharshah_1]

That article I posted for general information. Mythical stories generally depend on symbols and allegorical explanations. The phrase 'Golden Age' is allegorical and not 100% real. None of any society in any given period of time be 100% pure without crime and disturbance. No ancient culture is without its mythology. Myths are folklore, folk tales, folk stories of legends. Modern brain will hardly accept that God will come to planet Earth in forms of fish, tortroise, pig to save Mother Earth and fist fight with devils.

Normally when someone posts an article, it is the case that he agrees with it and does not post for the sake of posting to mislead.The article itself did not portray the Golden Age as a myth but rather it presented it as a fact. Of course no age is perfect and hence the need for Avatars to assume appropriate forms to bring about positive changes. God being God can assume any form suitable to the needs of the time.

You wrote:
The article itself did not portray the Golden Age as a myth but rather it presented it as a fact. Of course no age is perfect.

There are 2 parts of above post negating each other. First part says ' the golden age was not myth but was real' and other part says 'of course no age is perfect'!! When no age is perfect then how come the Satya yoga was perfect. There was the devil who stole vedas and disappear with his companions.
Nirinjin is Aruup, then how come he adopts Ruup?

[kmaherali]

There are 2 parts of above post negating each other. First part says ' the golden age was not myth but was real' and other part says 'of course no age is perfect'!! When no age is perfect then how come the Satya yoga was perfect. There was the devil who stole vedas and disappear with his companions.Nirinjin is Aruup, then how come he adopts Ruup?

Perfection is of course in relative sense. There is no absolute perfection. What Satya Yuga represents, is the higher mental capacities which can be used to promote civilization and which can also be used for negative purposes. In esoteric philosophy the negative tendencies are there to be overcome and hence spiritual strength and progress is derived.

Pahelaaj was abused in his childhood by the devil (his father). However he withstood the hardships with patience which enabled him to attain the status of the master of the five crores.

[Admin]

I want to document the existence of various Das Avatars Granths and shorter Ginans here, beside the obvious. I may have stated some of this in the past.

We used to have the Das Avatar Moto of Pir Sadardin which was used and well known in the community, the one quoted by our Imam in the British Court and in the handwritten affidavit of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in 1908 at the British Court during Haji Bibi Case.

Beside, there was a longer Das Avatar of Syed Imam Shah and Late Dr Gulshan Khakee usd a manuscript she found in Pirana for her Thesis at Harvard (http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/29102) In manuscript hs0108 of AD 1841 found in Sinugra area, there is the tenth chapter of the Das Avatar of Syed Imam Shah, it has 527 verses.

Gulshan Khakee also wrote on the Nano Das Avatar of Pir Shams. (So one days we were bound to find the "Moto" version of Pir Shams. We can also find the same Nano Das Avatar of Pir Shams in hs0202 dated AD 1871. It has 4 pages and 10 chapters.

I was surprised to find the Moto Das Avatar of Pir Hasan Kabirdin in Khojki manuscript hs0022 dated 1875 which beloged to some Mukhi Alarakhiya Samji of Mumbai in that time, the Dasmu Avatar part has 524 verses.

I though the Imamshahis would know about it. I was wrong, I asked to few of their "scholars" but none of them knew. The fact that this work was known as "Moto" may point to the fact that Pir Hasan Kabirdin also wrote a "Nano" version.

Then, Gujarati manuscript hs0375 found in Ahmedabad area and completed in Samvat 1823 (AD 1767) has a work described as MOTO Das Avatar of Pir Shams in 582 verses.

I intend to write extensively on various versions of the Das Avatar.

[kmaherali]

That all the Pirs have related extensively on Das Avatars, says a great deal about the veracity of it. It couldn't just be a conversion tool as the critics have alleged.

[shivatrivedi]

That all the Pirs have related extensively on Das Avatars, says a great deal about the veracity of it. It couldn't just be a conversion tool as the critics have alleged.

With reference to KIM, MSMS has said FORGET 9 AVTARS AND PRAISE MOWLA ALI. Question is why he reminded us to forget 9 Avtars? Mission of Pirs completed and Piratan merged with Imamat, THERE IS NO MASS CONVERSIONS NOW A DAYS. Ginans on 10 Avtars are not recited in JKs on Hidayat of Imam. These Ginans according to 1969 Ginan workshop are meant for research and not necessary to follow. Why there are 3 different versions, long medium, and small. It is important to obey Hidayat of Imam of the time. DUS AVTARS ARE NOT INCLUDED IN ISMAILI ARTICLES OF FAITH. Literary and intellectual discussion is fine. This is my opinion as every one has right of his/her opinion.

[kmaherali]

With reference to KIM, MSMS has said FORGET 9 AVTARS AND PRAISE MOWLA ALI. Question is why he reminded us to forget 9 Avtars?

If we follow the current Imam/Avatar, that does not mean that the previous Avatars did not exist or they have no history.

Mission of Pirs completed and Piratan merged with Imamat, THERE IS NO MASS CONVERSIONS NOW A DAYS. Ginans on 10 Avtars are not recited in JKs on Hidayat of Imam. These Ginans according to 1969 Ginan workshop are meant for research and not necessary to follow. Why there are 3 different versions, long medium, and small. It is important to obey Hidayat of Imam of the time. DUS AVTARS ARE NOT INCLUDED IN ISMAILI ARTICLES OF FAITH. Literary and intellectual discussion is fine. This is my opinion as every one has right of his/her opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion, so long as you are respectful for others' opinions as well.

The Imam is the Gurnar or ShahPir hence the Iamat and Piratan are always merged. However the Imam may choose to delegate the role of Piratan to another member of the Ahl al-Bayt such as in the past.

Obviously no one is asked to follow the previous Avatars. All they are asked is to acknowledge that there is a recorded history of them as a continuation of the line of Imamat and the impact they had upon history. There is a Farman of MSMS that we have to study the philosophy of Das Avatars. This Farman has never been superseded.

The fact that the Ginans about Das Avatars are there at least for research shows that they have historical and intellectual relevance, otherwsie they would have been completely discarded.

[Admin]

There is a Farman of MSMS that we have to study the philosophy of Das Avatars. This Farman has never been superseded.

Not to forget that in a handwritten affidavit signed by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in the British Court, the concept of Das Avatar is mentioned among the important tenets of the Ismaili faith.

[Admin]

The Concept of Das Avatar and the continuity of Imamat has been discussed in this monograph of early 1980s' with lists of Imams, tables etc.. sources mainly in Ginans and Granths. Of importance, names of many Imams BEFORE the Das Avatar have been given from ginanic sources, well before the time of the Hindus

Link to the monograph is:

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/files/i ... -nagib.pdf

While text is in French, lists and tables can be read by all. Here is an example but there is much more if the PDF link above:

[Aakash]

Ya Ali Madad,
I am really getting wonderful knowledge by these post, thanks to all.
May I kindly request, if anyone of you can get me the meaning of some difficult words in Das Avatar Nano by Pir Sadardin.
I got the meaning book but it is in Marathi language and I can’t read Marathi
Kindly help me to get a copy as I really in need of it.

I will be very much grateful
Awaiting reply.

[KayBur]

Look at the necessary book on E-Bay, very often there are rare, vintage and other unusual things that cannot be found on the shelves of ordinary stores.

[Aakash]

Many thanks for reply,

I am looking for meaning of some difficult words in Das Avatar

If any one got a book with meaning please let me know.
Or
If any one can transfer from Marathi to Gujarati or English as I got the meaning book in Marathi Language.
Kind regards
Aakash

[Admin]

Notes on some newly discovered manuscripts of the Das Avatar of the Satpanthi NIzari Ismailis in the collection of the Heritage Society.

Full article available here: https://library.ismaili.net/documents/n ... collection

The Das Avatars of the Ismaili Satpanthis (“Ismailis”) is a sub-concept developed within the concept of the lineage of the continuous divine manifestation before and subsequent to the creation of the universe. There are also several Ismaili works composed under this name by various Pirs, the better known is that of Pir Sadardin and that of Syed Imamshah.

The Das Avatars in Ismailism is quite different from the Das Avatar of the Vaishnavites (called “Hindus” henceforth) as discussed below. The Ismaili Das Avatar has been referenced in the Asal Gat Paat ji Dua, the prayer recited for centuries. However the importance of this work and the special reverence by Ismailis came to the attention of Westerners only from mid 19th century.

Going through the catalogue of the newly opened Indic manuscripts section of the Heritage Society (library.ismaili.net) we came across two Das Avatar works which have not yet been referenced in any publications: The Das Avatar Vado (Moto) of Pir Shams and the tenth Dasmo Avatar from the Das Avatar Vado of Pir Hassan Kabirdin.

[Admin]

Mural Painting of Mach Avatar behind Sultan MuhammaD Shah in his house.

ISMAILI DAS AVATAR - "When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above." ( FIRST ISMAILIA MISSION CONFERENCE, Dar es Salaam, 1945, AGA KHAN III. )

Learn more about the place of Das Avatar among the many Imams that came to sustain the creation even before Hazrat Ali. Learn on the Genealogy of the Ismaili Imams who came with every Prophet and in every times. Did you know our Imam referred to Mach Avatar even in his own handwriting in an Affidavit?
PAINTING: First Mach Avatar on the wall in Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's residence.

HARVARD THESIS BY GULSHAN KHAKEE: http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/29102

HANDWRITTEN AFFIDAVIT OF AGA KHAN III: http://heritage.ismaili.net/files/NoorE ... 1980-1.pdf

BANDALI HAJI: "NOORAN ALLAH NOOR": http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/15498

ASAL DUA: https://www.academia.edu/70442096/Evolu ... XQgChCn23k

ISMAILIA MISSION CONFERENCE 1945: https://www.ismaili.net/timeline/1945/1 ... H_2lvOaFRc

GENEALOGY: http://heritage.ismaili.net/files/Nargi ... tLI9uIRgWw

DAS AVATAR MANUSCRIPTSD: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ge_Society