Imam and Imamat

[shivaathervedi_3]

ISMAILI GNOSTIC
April 22, 2016 at 8:19 pm
The current Imam was asked in the Man Alive interview whether “is this some kind of divine authority” and his response was to not confuse religious authority with divinity. He added that the quran was the only miracle in Islam.
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This matter was discussed at:

Anecdotes -->Role of Miracles in Esoteric Traditions.

The question is about ' Historical Imam ' and ' Real Imam ' and not about miracles.

[shivaathervedi_3]

ISMAILI GNOSTIC
April 22, 2016 at 8:19 pm
The current Imam was asked in the Man Alive interview whether “is this some kind of divine authority” and his response was to not confuse religious authority with divinity. He added that the quran was the only miracle in Islam.

This has been already discussed umpteen times, please read the Forum discussion on the topic from beginning before posting again and again the same.

As for your question to IsmailiGnosis, it is better to ask them directly on their own website and move your discussion there.

Your attitude is rude. lately 2 honorable members posted from Ismailignosis and referred to read articles. Why not you suggested them that they should discuss the subject on their web site. I call it double standard.

What is wrong in discussing " " So the mazhar is not divine" and " he denied divinity because divinity does not belong to the person of Imam".

So far the topic 'Historical Imam' and 'Real Imam' is not discussed in this thread.

[Admin]

I suggest you seriously read the thread from beginning, it has been discussed and we do not want to discuss again what has already been discussed. I understand that there are too many post in this thread but you have to read them before posting. Any double post on the same topic will be deleted.

[kmaherali]

The question is about ' Historical Imam ' and ' Real Imam ' and not about miracles.

The issue was discussed under the heading of miracles because MHI stated that the only miracle in Islam is the Qur'an. So if you want to read about it go to the link I provided.

[shivaathervedi_3]

The question is about ' Historical Imam ' and ' Real Imam ' and not about miracles.

The issue was discussed under the heading of miracles because MHI stated that the only miracle in Islam is the Qur'an. So if you want to read about it go to the link I provided.

I did read the link you suggested. Imam is always right. He stated," The only miracle in Islam is Quran". He did not said,"The only miracle in Islam is Imam"?

[Admin]

I did read the link you suggested. Imam is always right. He stated," The only miracle in Islam is Quran". He did not said,"The only miracle in Islam is Imam"?

You have been posting the same in different threads. This is called cross posting. Please read the rules of posting, cross posting is not allowed.

[kmaherali]

I did read the link you suggested. Imam is always right. He stated," The only miracle in Islam is Quran". He did not said,"The only miracle in Islam is Imam"?

There is always a difference between what is the Zaher (said in public) and Batin (said in jamati context). In one of the Farmans in Syria MHI said: With regard to the interpretation of faith, that which is zaher is zaher and that which is batin is batin. This is fundamental

He would not have made such a statement if zaher and batin had the same meaning and significance.

[shivaathervedi_3]

I did read the link you suggested. Imam is always right. He stated," The only miracle in Islam is Quran". He did not said,"The only miracle in Islam is Imam"?

There is always a difference between what is the Zaher (said in public) and Batin (said in jamati context). In one of the Farmans in Syria MHI said: With regard to the interpretation of faith, that which is zaher is zaher and that which is batin is batin. This is fundamental

He would not have made such a statement if zaher and batin had the same meaning and significance.

Your statement of zahir and batin may have been effective 100 years back with beechari jamait of saying aamana wa sadaqna. The 21st century youth believes in what is apparent. Did Imam gave the batin meaning to the jamaits of his statement that, "The only miracle in Islam is Quran"?
Your batini meaning will differ from mine or a missionary or a mukhi saheb. If every one starts his own batini meaning then there is no need of Imam.

[Admin]

Your statement of zahir and batin may have been effective 100 years back with beechari jamait of saying aamana wa sadaqna. The 21st century youth believes in what is apparent. .

his Farman about Zahir and Batin was made in Syria by the present Imam and not 100 years ago, not that it really matters because I doubt this Farman will be ever supersede. Usually Farmans which are related to spiritual values are rarely, if ever, superseded.

[kmaherali]

Did Imam gave the batin meaning to the jamaits of his statement that, "The only miracle in Islam is Quran"?
Your batini meaning will differ from mine or a missionary or a mukhi saheb. If every one starts his own batini meaning then there is no need of Imam.

MHI has told us that ours is an intellectual and personal esoteric tradition. In an esoteric tradition each person can have his/her own personal interpretation so long as it accords with the Farmans of the Imam and remains within the domain of the Batin.

In one of the Farmans MSMS said that Hazarat Ali's miracle was to show you the way.

[shivaathervedi_3]

Did Imam gave the batin meaning to the jamaits of his statement that, "The only miracle in Islam is Quran"?
Your batini meaning will differ from mine or a missionary or a mukhi saheb. If every one starts his own batini meaning then there is no need of Imam.

MHI has told us that ours is an intellectual and personal esoteric tradition. In an esoteric tradition each person can have his/her own personal interpretation so long as it accords with the Farmans of the Imam and remains within the domain of the Batin.

In one of the Farmans MSMS said that Hazarat Ali's miracle was to show you the way.

From Ali to Karim each Imam has shown the right path to followers.
Let us analyze your following statement. You wrote," MHI has told us that ours is an intellectual and personal esoteric tradition. In an esoteric tradition each person can have his/her own personal interpretation so long as it accords with the Farmans of the Imam and remains within the domain of the Batin".

Once I wrote and you accepted," that a batini should keep his/her batiniyat in his/her batan". Only Imam explains the correct inner meaning or whom Imam authorizes. Each " EERA GHEERA " have no place in Ismailism to show his scholarship on batini matters. When Imam explains batin of any Farman is acceptable. The Syrian Farman is in general context, Imam did not shed light on any batini particular religious issue.

[shivaathervedi_3]

Your statement of zahir and batin may have been effective 100 years back with beechari jamait of saying aamana wa sadaqna. The 21st century youth believes in what is apparent. .

his Farman about Zahir and Batin was made in Syria by the present Imam and not 100 years ago, not that it really matters because I doubt this Farman will be ever supersede. Usually Farmans which are related to spiritual values are rarely, if ever, superseded.

I pointed out 100+ years back some senior missionaries showed their batiniyat on serious issues and made jamaits confused. At that time discipline was no one dare to confront missionaries. In modern era times change, youth is asking questions rigorously. Now missionaries can't say, oh this is batin.

[kmaherali]

At that time discipline was no one dare to confront missionaries. In modern era times change, youth is asking questions rigorously. Now missionaries can't say, oh this is batin.

I don't think it is difficult for the youth of today to appreciate that there are matters that are for the Jamat and that there are matters that are for outside the Jamat. They are quite intelligent.

It is only people like yourself who have a problem with that.

[shivaathervedi_3]

At that time discipline was no one dare to confront missionaries. In modern era times change, youth is asking questions rigorously. Now missionaries can't say, oh this is batin.

I don't think it is difficult for the youth of today to appreciate that there are matters that are for the Jamat and that there are matters that are for outside the Jamat. They are quite intelligent.

It is only people like yourself who have a problem with that.

Ground realities are different than what you think about these intelligent youth. You should be well aware how they question Imam in student Mullaqaats. They do not shy to question in comparison to 50 years back in such Mullaqaats. They believe seeing is believing. They believe in words of Imam whether for jamaits or out side jamaits.

[kmaherali]

They believe seeing is believing. They believe in words of Imam whether for jamaits or out side jamaits.

If the youth are given an explanation that in any esoteric tradition a Mursheed speaks according to the capacity of the audience, just like a teacher who expresses himself differently for nursery level kids and university level students, then the zahir/batin dichotomy will be clear to them.

The problem is not with the youth but people like yourself.

[shivaathervedi_3]

They believe seeing is believing. They believe in words of Imam whether for jamaits or out side jamaits.

If the youth are given an explanation that in any esoteric tradition a Mursheed speaks according to the capacity of the audience, just like a teacher who expresses himself differently for nursery level kids and university level students, then the zahir/batin dichotomy will be clear to them.

The problem is not with the youth but people like yourself.

A teacher trained for nursery level kids is not qualified to teach university students. Today is era of specialization. Past 25+ years Imam is paying attention to Ismaili youth. Look at IIS revised curriculum, including STEP, and curriculum for nursery to 12th grade RC students. Get the new curriculum and compare it with 50 years back curriculum.
I am thankful to Hazar Imam who gave us Preamble. He explained jamaits in common and youth in particular to understand real Islam and Ismailism.

[Nuseri_1]

Ya Ali Madad.
When MHI call us his Spiritual children and also we see him as our Spiritual father ,there is a DEFINITE DIVINE CONNECTION.for a true believer there a 24x7 divine connection with ALI ( DUM HUME DUM ALI ALI).
At few occasions when a non Ismaili journalist ask questions on divinity,.there is NEVER one word reply of Yes or no from MHI,
But a masked covering of truth ,one case explaining the belief of sufis of him and one for Quran..bcoz truth that MIRACLE OF QURAN IS ALI.
the word n name Allah itself is a masked truth in Quran.
Which itself a search for miracle.
Just reading a line of reply and reaching a conclusion is stupidity n ignorance
and even Quran is say that its deeper meaning are reserved for Rasikun fi ilm categories.
Sun is sun and Sun is seen as light,how one call ,defines and understand it is one status.So if someone keep barking that sun is just sun ,it is not a light or holder/ emitter of is an ignorant as primary school student.
I feel if a person does not have faith/ Imaan in MHI ,I consider that person not as an Ismaili now ,even though born in an Ismaili family.

[kmaherali]

A teacher trained for nursery level kids is not qualified to teach university students. Today is era of specialization

It does not change the substance of the argument. What is taught and how it is taught is different for a nursery level kid than a university student. For example a nursery kid is taught how to count and add, whereas a university student is taught calculus. Who teaches is irrelevant.

[shivaathervedi_3]

A teacher trained for nursery level kids is not qualified to teach university students. Today is era of specialization

It does not change the substance of the argument. What is taught and how it is taught is different for a nursery level kid than a university student. For example a nursery kid is taught how to count and add, whereas a university student is taught calculus. Who teaches is irrelevant.

If it does not change the substance as you conclude then you have to admit that substance in syllabus from nursery to 12th grade is same. For example concept of Allah in nursery books is same as in higher grades that is of ALLAH and not other entity attached to it.

[shivaathervedi_3]

On Heritage site the LOGO in " To day in History " reads as follow:

ALLAH TOU AAHAAR
HERITAGE SOCIETY
ISMAILI.NET

It is interesting to note that instead of ALI TOU AAHAAR is ALLAH TOU AAHAAR, and this is what First Article of Preamble teaches us.

[Admin]

On Heritage site the LOGO in " To day in History " reads as follow:

ALLAH TOU AAHAAR
HERITAGE SOCIETY
ISMAILI.NET

It is interesting to note that instead of ALI TOU AAHAAR is ALLAH TOU AAHAAR, and this is what First Article of Preamble teaches us.

This is just ignorance. The logo that you are refering to contains a sentence which is common to manuscripts from all over the geography and history, in Christian Medieval Manuscript, very often the start is with the sentence "by the grace of Christ" of "with the help of God" and in Khojki manuscript the Expression Allah To Ahar is used with other expression such as Vasile Shah Pir or Vasile Panj Tan Pak, Bul Chuk Shah Pir Bakshe.. The same manuscript would write all over the place Ali Sahi Allah.

[Admin]

If it does not change the substance as you conclude then you have to admit that substance in syllabus from nursery to 12th grade is same. For example concept of Allah in nursery books is same as in higher grades that is of ALLAH and not other entity attached to it.

Your mistake. In the Encyclopedia of Islam (written for higher learning and scholars) there is a chapter on Allah, read it and especially the paragraph on "Allah in Ismailism" which is a different concept all together only understandable to those who have some developed intellect and some education. Certainly not to nursery kids.

[shivaathervedi_3]

On Heritage site the LOGO in " To day in History " reads as follow:

ALLAH TOU AAHAAR
HERITAGE SOCIETY
ISMAILI.NET

It is interesting to note that instead of ALI TOU AAHAAR is ALLAH TOU AAHAAR, and this is what First Article of Preamble teaches us.

This is just ignorance. The logo that you are refering to contains a sentence which is common to manuscripts from all over the geography and history, in Christian Medieval Manuscript, very often the start is with the sentence "by the grace of Christ" of "with the help of God" and in Khojki manuscript the Expression Allah To Ahar is used with other expression such as Vasile Shah Pir or Vasile Panj Tan Pak, Bul Chuk Shah Pir Bakshe.. The same manuscript would write all over the place Ali Sahi Allah.

Aadaab, jaan ki amaan paoun tou araz karu(n).
We are not Christians. We have our Imam and our Tariqah.
The expressions you have mentioned are 'kalimaat e Aajizi' they usually came at the end of the scripts. The samples you posted of old manuscripts in Khojki starts with;
ALLAH TOU AAHAAR
ALLAH TOU AADHAAR
AND THEN START WITH
BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM

I have in my collection some scripts as you have which all starts with Allah tou Aahaar and not with Ali tou Aahaar.

One other thing to remind you, on smart phone Android system bu you in meaning of Dua, the meaning you mentioned for Aliyullah is " Ali is from Allah ", How come!!!

[shivaathervedi_3]

If it does not change the substance as you conclude then you have to admit that substance in syllabus from nursery to 12th grade is same. For example concept of Allah in nursery books is same as in higher grades that is of ALLAH and not other entity attached to it.

Your mistake. In the Encyclopedia of Islam (written for higher learning and scholars) there is a chapter on Allah, read it and especially the paragraph on "Allah in Ismailism" which is a different concept all together only understandable to those who have some developed intellect and some education. Certainly not to nursery kids.

The concept of Allah is not different in comparison to mainstream Muslim sects. Hazar Imam during DJ farmans has emphasized to understand Surah Ikhlas. The concept of Surah Ikhlas is taught from nursery students to higher RC classes on Hidayat of Imam.

[kmaherali]

The concept of Allah is not different in comparison to mainstream Muslim sects. Hazar Imam during DJ farmans has emphasized to understand Surah Ikhlas. The concept of Surah Ikhlas is taught from nursery students to higher RC classes on Hidayat of Imam.

Sure there are zaheri concepts that we share with other Muslims such as Surah Ikhlas. However there are Batini ideas that are particular to our tradition such as the Mazhar which we may not be able to share with other Muslims and which cannot be taught at nursery level.

Also you have to keep in mind, that the curriculum developed by the IIS is increasingly shared by other Muslims and hence many of our Batini ideas cannot be incorporated in it.

[shivaathervedi_3]

The concept of Allah is not different in comparison to mainstream Muslim sects. Hazar Imam during DJ farmans has emphasized to understand Surah Ikhlas. The concept of Surah Ikhlas is taught from nursery students to higher RC classes on Hidayat of Imam.

Sure there are zaheri concepts that we share with other Muslims such as Surah Ikhlas. However there are Batini ideas that are particular to our tradition such as the Mazhar which we may not be able to share with other Muslims and which cannot be taught at nursery level.

Also you have to keep in mind, that the curriculum developed by the IIS is increasingly shared by other Muslims and hence many of our Batini ideas cannot be incorporated in it.

Qurban e Shuma, you keep finding all answers in batin going no where.
During DJ Farman about Surah Ikhlas he did not utter any word about batin of Surah Ikhlas. In our Tariqah it is only Imam who shall guide us about inner meaning, because 'IMAM IS RASKHUN FIL ILM'.
What you mean by 'batni ideas', are these some modern ideas in connection to religion? If you have any batni ideas why to conceal. Let the general public be benefited. The phrase 'Mazhar of God' is not related only to Ismailis but we can find this phrase in Sunni and Shia religious literature.
For example in Qawalis anD Manqabats, we listen "TERI ZAAT HAI MAZHAR E NOOR E KHUDA" for Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali.

It is a vague argument that batni interpretation can't be incorporated in curriculum, how come students will be familiar with these HIDDEN IDEAS, and why are we hiding our interpretation of Tariqah. Let the world know.

[kmaherali]

Qurban e Shuma, you keep finding all answers in batin going no where..

Ours is essentially a Batini (esoteric) faith and hence all answers must come from the Batini perspective.

The Batini ideas cannot be incorporated in the curriculum because it is shared by other tariqahs as well. They can be imparted through esoteric means such as waezes and lectures.

[shivaathervedi_3]

Qurban e Shuma, you keep finding all answers in batin going no where..

Ours is essentially a Batini (esoteric) faith and hence all answers must come from the Batini perspective.

The Batini ideas cannot be incorporated in the curriculum because it is shared by other tariqahs as well. They can be imparted through esoteric means such as waezes and lectures.

You wrote," Ours is essentially a Batini (esoteric) faith and hence all answers must come from the Batini perspective". If we follow your assertion, then I think we do not need Du'a, Dasond, Eid Namaz, Janazah Namaz, Nikah, and so on because these are zahiri acts without batin. Or we shall recite Tasbih saying; Ya batin Ya batin Ya batin, enough for momineen.

I do not understand, why are you shying to incorporate batiniyat in curriculum!! What is harm in it. Let the world know what our beliefs are. Are our beliefs so dangerous or dumb which we can not express to others!!

[Admin]

Considering the difficulties you have to understand the concept of Batin, no surprise that it is not made available outside the Jamat. In fact in one of the Farmans the Imam says the Ayats of the Quran are there for all but their meaning is there only for our Jamat.

This closes the discussion on Batini in this thread.

[kmaherali]

In fact in one of the Farmans the Imam says the Ayats of the Quran are there for all but their meaning is there only for our Jamat.

This Farman says it all, nothing further needs to be said.