wuzu

[hpatel]

[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?

[ShamsB]

[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?

Farman of MSMS and MHI,
we should go to Jamat Khana having clean and simple clothes..and a clean heart. It is very important to have a clean heart versus washing our hands and feet..

Ginan of Pir.
Kapda Dhove so Kiya huva..dil dhove so paave..

another thing..i've noticed that you're quoting the quran in a lot of places on this board...
as an ismaili, the Quran holds little or no relevance for me.
The farman of the Imam supercedes the Quran.

Shams

[curious2]

Farman of MSMS and MHI,
we should go to Jamat Khana having clean and simple clothes..and a clean heart. It is very important to have a clean heart versus washing our hands and feet..

Ginan of Pir.
Kapda Dhove so Kiya huva..dil dhove so paave..

another thing..i've noticed that you're quoting the quran in a lot of places on this board...
as an ismaili, the Quran holds little or no relevance for me.
The farman of the Imam supercedes the Quran.

Shams

Brother ShamsB, I hope you have boldfaced your "me" up there. You absolutely cannot tell any Ismaili that Quran holds little or no relevance to them. It is for each individual to decide.

If brother hpatel is looking for clear and direct answer on why Ismailis do not do traditional sunnah based wazu, then you have given him a very good reply.

[azamour]

this is my interpretation of abandoning of formal wudu.

In times of Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) only source of water inside the city was water inside the containers. Water did not flow as it does now a days out of the tabs or shower. So it made lot of sense at that time to pick up water three times to clean different parts of you body.
In 21st century you stand under a shower, use fragranced soaps, and clean up really well. you drive and live in airconditioned envoirnment, as compared to living in deserts of Arabia. I think if i take shower in the morning, use deodorants and colognes, work all day, and come to Jamat khana in evening im still doind much better then somebody living in a desert walking to the mosque.
We can not compare our selves with spritual purity of Rasool Allah and his companions. So please dont take me wrong.
Although we should all still do whatever we can to make sure we clean up physically b4 coming to JK. Or b4 Praying at home to that matter.

[azamour]

ShamsB wrote:

another thing..i've noticed that you're quoting the quran in a lot of places on this board...
as an ismaili, the Quran holds little or no relevance for me.
The farman of the Imam supercedes the Quran.

i think your statement needs correction.
The farman of Imam comes first, and it interpretates the Quran for us. Whether we understand the meaning of Farmans or not we follow it any way. Quran holds relevance to you or not it has nothing to do with your being Ismaili.
Ismailis that i know follow Quran through Imams guidance.
Anybody who quotes Quran should only be appreciated as most of us Khojas are too lazy to read it. Atleast somebody is taking the initiative.

I think its our lack of knowledge about the Quran sometimes that scares us. We hide our head in sand by saying Quran is irrelivent.
Please correct me if im wrong.

[star_munir]

I think ShamsB meant to say that as an Ismaili, for him there is more importance of Farmans and Ginans.
Now this topic is already discussed in the same section "customs and traditions" under same topic but different spelling "Wazzu" There is answer for this question there too you may also refer to that.

[ShamsB]

ShamsB wrote:

another thing..i've noticed that you're quoting the quran in a lot of places on this board...
as an ismaili, the Quran holds little or no relevance for me.
The farman of the Imam supercedes the Quran.

i think your statement needs correction.
The farman of Imam comes first, and it interpretates the Quran for us. Whether we understand the meaning of Farmans or not we follow it any way. Quran holds relevance to you or not it has nothing to do with your being Ismaili.
Ismailis that i know follow Quran through Imams guidance.
Anybody who quotes Quran should only be appreciated as most of us Khojas are too lazy to read it. Atleast somebody is taking the initiative.

I think its our lack of knowledge about the Quran sometimes that scares us. We hide our head in sand by saying Quran is irrelivent.
Please correct me if im wrong.

well then I hide my head in the sand.
The quran hold little or no relevance for me as i have the living and present Imam
I have given my tan, man and dhan to the Imam.
we should follow the farmans of the Imam because that is what i have given baiyat to do.

Shams

[curious2]

Look, the words of God came first, regardless of age and time, they were revealed to all the Prophets. Quran as a compiled book came second, it was even compiled on the direction of someone who was not selected by the God (although he claimed that he was khalifatul Allah). So in a sense, you are right. But you don't have to show rigidness in your views towards your own brothers in faith. Not everyone knows and understands things the way you do, so do not look at everyone with the same eye. Heck even the people in Muhammad's time didn't look at things the way they should have been but we have to take our history along regardless. If you wish others see the "right way" then make them, before you ignore them by hiding your head in the sand. Note that you're talking about shariati matters here so I would keep things in context if possible.

[unnalhaq]

I think folks (here) have to understand a few things (even though there believes or foundations are/may not be of Islam) nevertheless if you are Ismaili than you must be Muslim first.
An Ismaili is a Muslim first.
Now in a nutshell: in the Shia Tradition/Interpretation of Islam, The Nobel Quran confers the authority of The Imam as the holder of the authority. If you give no value to Quran, than you have no basis to claim what The Imam or His authority is.
I think the views us as of ShamsB and others alike incubate the ideas or questions that are littered on this site, i.e. Ismailis not considered Muslims, Hinduism in Ismaili, Ismaili bashing, and on and on.
Now I have said my peace, this is what I can share about my thoughts and practices to hpatel’s post. Well, I shower everyday and I shower the second time right before I head out to JK (and some occasions even afterwards too but that is an another thread it self!).
In some far in deselect places in the desserts of Middle East where the water is in short or no supply there is a dedicated stone instead of water that is used for Wadu(if you are Arabic)/Wazzu(Persian, Paki and others).
There is a protocol for the Wadu/Wazzu, the way and steps of performing it, that I don’t think most people in JKs or let alone on this site, with out googling can tell you how.

[ShamsB]

I think folks (here) have to understand a few things (even though there believes or foundations are/may not be of Islam) nevertheless if you are Ismaili than you must be Muslim first.
An Ismaili is a Muslim first.
Now in a nutshell: in the Shia Tradition/Interpretation of Islam, The Nobel Quran confers the authority of The Imam as the holder of the authority. If you give no value to Quran, than you have no basis to claim what The Imam or His authority is.
I think the views us as of ShamsB and others alike incubate the ideas or questions that are littered on this site, i.e. Ismailis not considered Muslims, Hinduism in Ismaili, Ismaili bashing, and on and on.
Now I have said my peace, this is what I can share about my thoughts and practices to hpatel’s post. Well, I shower everyday and I shower the second time right before I head out to JK (and some occasions even afterwards too but that is an another thread it self!).
In some far in deselect places in the desserts of Middle East where the water is in short or no supply there is a dedicated stone instead of water that is used for Wadu(if you are Arabic)/Wazzu(Persian, Paki and others).
There is a protocol for the Wadu/Wazzu, the way and steps of performing it, that I don’t think most people in JKs or let alone on this site, with out googling can tell you how.

In MY opinion..ismailies are the only muslims..as they are the only ones that have actually followed the guidance of the prophet. i.e. followed the IMAM.

The Imam's authority for me doesn't come from the Qu'ran..neither is he dependant on the Quran.
..
Remember the IMAM was ALWAYS THERE..from the DAY OF CREATION and will be THERE to the DAY OF JUDGEMENT, the Qu'ran came after the Imam.


Shams

[ShamsB]

[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?

btw..
please show me where wazu is mentioned..or that we should wash our hands and feet outside Jamat Khana..
all it refers to is taking a bath..or washing one's self...before prayer..or if one can't find water..using the earth. Wazu isn't mentioned here.

I just reread it clearly!
So Wazu isn't enforced upon us..however we have been told to go to Jamat Khana clean and with clean and simple clothes.

Shams

[hpatel]

[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?

btw..
please show me where wazu is mentioned..or that we should wash our hands and feet outside Jamat Khana..
all it refers to is taking a bath..or washing one's self...before prayer..or if one can't find water..using the earth. Wazu isn't mentioned here.

I just reread it clearly!
So Wazu isn't enforced upon us..however we have been told to go to Jamat Khana clean and with clean and simple clothes.

Shams

The quran often times does not directly refer to things. This was just my interpretation of this verse. The part which pertains to wazu was:"until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands;" Also i never said that wazu is or should be enforced upon us I simply asked why it is not necessary for us ismailis.

[ShamsB]

[4.43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

If I'm not mistaken, this quranic verse talks about physical purification before prayers (wuzu/ablution) why is it that wuzu is not enforced upon us ismailis? Is there a farman that talks about this?

btw..
please show me where wazu is mentioned..or that we should wash our hands and feet outside Jamat Khana..
all it refers to is taking a bath..or washing one's self...before prayer..or if one can't find water..using the earth. Wazu isn't mentioned here.

I just reread it clearly!
So Wazu isn't enforced upon us..however we have been told to go to Jamat Khana clean and with clean and simple clothes.

Shams

The quran often times does not directly refer to things. This was just my interpretation of this verse. The part which pertains to wazu was:"until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands;" Also i never said that wazu is or should be enforced upon us I simply asked why it is not necessary for us ismailis.

so..Wuzu isn't necessary for us..(the act of washing OUTSIDE the Jamat Khana) however...we have farmans of MHI and MSMS that instruct us to come to jamat khana in a clean condition and in simple and clean clothes.

We should take a bath/shower before going to Jamat Khana and dress in clean and simple clothes to show respect for not only the status of Jamat Khana and to follow the Farman..but also for our fellow Ismaili brothers and sisters.

Shams

[unnalhaq]

In MY opinion..ismailies are the only muslims..as they are the only ones that have actually followed the guidance of the prophet. i.e. followed the IMAM.

The Imam's authority for me doesn't come from the Qu'ran..neither is he dependant on the Quran.
..
Remember the IMAM was ALWAYS THERE..from the DAY OF CREATION and will be THERE to the DAY OF JUDGEMENT, the Qu'ran came after the Imam.

Let’s make this elementary and see where it leads us and I think it is a very important discussion that warrants some time to be spent on.
What tells you that the Imam(s) have the authority? Or What constitutes the legitimacy of the Imam(s)?

[curious2]

What tells you that the Imam(s) have the authority? Or What constitutes the legitimacy of the Imam(s)?

It is totally out of context/thread but since you're at it, let me ask you this:

Who gave permissions to Abu Bakr to take upon himself the role of a leader of the Ummah while Ali was washing Prophets body for burial?
Who gave permissions to Abu Bakr to call in a meeting of few like minded individuals (minus Ali) to elect himself the leader?
Who then gave permissions to Abu Bakr to select Umar as a next leader of the Ummah? This without consulting Ali once again or even calling in a vote of his own people.
Any idea why Hasan and Hussein were protecting Uthman when the angry mob of another clan came to kill Uthman for his incompetencies?
Any idea why Ali chose to become the fourth caliph but decided not to take the title as choosen by Uthman? (instead he reversed it to what Umar had).

Shian-e Ali always knew the authority of the Imam, they always knew the legitimacy of the Imam. Just look around the politics of the current day and age then track yourself backwards and you'll get the idea of why they never accepted Ali as the rightful hereditary Imam from Ahl-e bait and Hashami clan.

[azamour]

ShamsB Said

[/quote]In MY opinion..ismailies are the only muslims..as they are the only ones that have actually followed the guidance of the prophet. i.e. followed the IMAM.

The Imam's authority for me doesn't come from the Qu'ran..neither is he dependant on the Quran.
..
Remember the IMAM was ALWAYS THERE..from the DAY OF CREATION and will be THERE to the DAY OF JUDGEMENT, the Qu'ran came after the Imam.

Since the topic of discussion is a Shariati matter answer should be given on the same level. So that every one can understand. If a Non Ismaili is asking you a Question about Ismaili practices and Only answer you have is that "Imam was there from the day of Creation and He will be there till end" than you might as well just say i dont know why we practice Islam this way but i do whatever Imam says.
Which to me would be against Ismaili spirit. As Imam says You should put My Farmans on your Neck through Akl(Wisdom,Intellect).

[azamour]

Excuse the Technical Error.... Quotation part was my opinion

[azamour]

unnalhuq said:

Let’s make this elementary and see where it leads us and I think it is a very important discussion that warrants some time to be spent on.
What tells you that the Imam(s) have the authority? Or What constitutes the legitimacy of the Imam(s)?

Argument with ShamsB we are having is that No Ismaili can say that Quran is Irrelivant. I dont think it would be in Ismaili spirit to discuss Hazar Imams authority. Even ShamsB's statement is i think out of his love for Imam. We all consider Imams love to be above all things, so lets just correct him(as we cant allow Qurans disrespect either) and lets keep it to that.

[kmaherali]

I think we must make a distinction between what we understand and know for ourselves and what we articulate to others. The former approach would be the 'Batini' perspective to which ShamsB and curious2 are alluding to and the latter would be the 'Zaheri' approach.

From the 'Zaheri' perspective the Quran is important. Our constitution recognises it as the final revealed message of Allah. Mowlana HazarImam is building bridges with other Muslims and it is only the Quran that can be used for this purpose being the basis of all interpretations of Islam.

[curious2]

I think we must make a distinction between what we understand and know for ourselves and what we articulate to others. The former approach would be the 'Batini' perspective to which ShamsB and curious2 are alluding to and the latter would be the 'Zaheri' approach.

From the 'Zaheri' perspective the Quran is important. Our constitution recognises it as the final revealed message of Allah. Mowlana HazarImam is building bridges with other Muslims and it is only the Quran that can be used for this purpose being the basis of all interpretations of Islam.

Another thing we should all realize is the concept of traditionalist and rationalist schools of thoughts when it comes to Quran. Although the historic schools of these two branches had their say in earlier times but their reminisces still persists (that's where the current fight is I believe). Examples of those who come up with zahiri questions like above mentioned subject (and many other topics) are usually those who have their religious understandings firmly grounded in traditionalist school of thoughts.

So the battle is tough, but some how we have to come up with work arounds.

Building a solid bridge on the basis of Quran is the best approach. Quran is the only zahiri thing that binds us all.

[star_munir]

Ya Ali Madad all

In Ginan Buj Niranjan, Pir Sadardin says,"The Holy Quran should be understood for it is interpreted by the Nabi for you."
I agree that Imam was before Quran but just like Khoja Ismailis got the Shanakht of Imam from Ginans same can be with Non Khoja Ismailis that they may have recognized Imam through Quran. As it is in Ginan Moman chetamani verse 16,"The right knowledge has come from Ali and His Progeny as is forecast by Holy Quran and the Holy Quran has come from God Himself and the proof ofall that is really in this Satpanth."
If any one is asking an explanation of Quranic verse, I dont think he or she has done any thing wrong in that.
But however,in Ismailism the Farmans are far more important then any other thing. There are many examples which we can find in history with this regards like the battle at the time of Imam Ali in which Imam claimed to be Speaking Quran and ordered to continue the war etc. I would like to repeat the post of K.Maher Ali here which he replied to a Non Ismaili who wrote
"Words of Imam are more important than the words of Allah .. Interesting"
K.Maher Ali replied,"It would also be interesting for you to note that Islam is pluralistic. That there are many interpretations of Islam possible. According to Shia Ismaili interpretation MHI interpretes and contextualizes Allah's message and in that sense his message is equivalent to Allah's but more recent than the Quran. "By the institution of the 'Ulu'l-Amr', who can be interpreted as Imam and Caliph, and by placing obedience to 'Ulu'l-Amr' immediately after that to God and Prophet, he ensured that the Faith would ever remain living, extending, developing with science, knowledge, art and industry." -Hz. Imam Sultan Muhammed Shah Aga Khan III (Sept. 1934

Now regarding Wazzu.
Also in verse it is mentioned like O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath......
To clean body not necessary means to do Wazzu..Further I would request that is same section there is another topic with name wazzu, you may also refer to the posting there. In one of the post there is mention of Spiritual Wazzu which is very much worth reading.

[nowroozalisabiti]

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0pt">Dear all YAM,<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You should pay attention, Muhammad (S) has said in o&shy;ne Hadith," I remain two things for the Ummah, and they remain after me in the world; o&shy;ne is Quran that is the&nbsp;speech of Allah and the other is the thread of Imamat. If any o&shy;ne takes refugee&nbsp;to these&nbsp;two things he/she will&nbsp;never stray" Quran proves the Imam and Imam tells the Quranic hermeneutics to Ummah keeping with&nbsp;each&nbsp;era where the IMAM of the Time lives. If you guys want to ask information, I refer you to a book. Waj-e-Deen of Nasir Khusraw is o&shy;ne of the books it explains in details what WUZU is. You should know both the Zaher and Baten. From Zaher we can prove baten. Please find an English translation of Wajh-i-Deen and you will find what the reality of the WUZU is. OK!</P>

[kmaherali]

Dear all YAM,

You should pay attention, Muhammad (S) has said in one Hadith," I remain two things for the Ummah, and they remain after me in the world; one is Quran that is the speech of Allah and the other is the thread of Imamat. If any one takes refugee to these two things he/she will never stray" Quran proves the Imam and Imam tells the Quranic hermeneutics to Ummah keeping with each era where the IMAM of the Time lives. If you guys want to ask information, I refer you to a book. Waj-e-Deen of Nasir Khusraw is one of the books it explains in details what WUZU is. You should know both the Zaher and Baten. From Zaher we can prove baten. Please find an English translation of Wajh-i-Deen and you will find what the reality of the WUZU is. OK!

YAM nowroozali,

Yes I have read the tawil of wuzu in the Waj-i-deen and I must say it is beautiful like his tawil of other practices including the much acclaimed significance of Hajj.

However we must realize that the personal and communal health was the primary reason for the institution of wuzu by the Prophet (AS) as stated by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his statement (Precious Perals, No. 106); "The care of the body is incumbent upon Muslims and the necessary ablutions and washings that Islam encourages are part of that.."

However we must not get into the mindset that because there is a beautiful tawil of it, we should start practising it today. The essence of the tawil is that it represents the washing away of false concepts and reminds us of the correct metaphysical principles expressed through various physical personalities or the hududs as means of attaining correct knowledge and salvation. This function can equally be achieved through the recitation of appropriate verses of Ginans and Qasidas before Dua.

During the Fatimid period it was necessary to practice all the external Islamic rituals in common with other tariqahs otherwise the Fatimid period would not have lasted that long. Therfore the dais of that period thought of ingenious tawil in keeping with the esoteric and intellectual nature of our tariqah. However times have changed and we need not practice the wuzu in the form that it was practiced then. We should still strive to be as clean as we can physically before we go for Dua in JK.

[aatimaram]

EJI UTTAM HOI NAAI DOEI APNA ALAKH NE AARADHO

Cleanliness is next to Godliness.