shivaathervedi wrote:
Also you did not address my question, why MSMS just started majalis in sub continent for Satpunthi khojas (where they receive Farmans) by EXCLUDING non khoja jamaits of Central Asia, China, and middle East?
You are mistaken, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah did not start Mijlases except for Chandraat Mijlas. All other including Baytul Khayal existed since time immemorial. For some Mijlases of Sacrifice or Service, the present Imam has made Farmans explaining that they go back to the time of Hazrat Ali.
Oh I know you will say there were 4 Khoja servants in the service of Bibi Fatima as per Ginans so the Mijlas at the time of Hazrat Ali was still a Khoja Mijlas....
In which Imam's time, majalis of life, F, N, and without name top majlis were started? Sure these were not from primordial times.
During the Momin Chetamani discussion (of Syed Imam Shah) it was refuted that there were any khojas at time of Prophet Muhammad, or Prophet gave Bibi Fatima 4 khojas as dowry. Please re visit the Momim Chetamani thread.
shivaathervedi wrote:
Also you did not address my question, why MSMS just started majalis in sub continent for Satpunthi khojas (where they receive Farmans) by EXCLUDING non khoja jamaits of Central Asia, China, and middle East?
You are mistaken, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah did not start Mijlases except for Chandraat Mijlas. All other including Baytul Khayal existed since time immemorial. For some Mijlases of Sacrifice or Service, the present Imam has made Farmans explaining that they go back to the time of Hazrat Ali.
Oh I know you will say there were 4 Khoja servants in the service of Bibi Fatima as per Ginans so the Mijlas at the time of Hazrat Ali was still a Khoja Mijlas....
In which Imam's time, majalis of life, F, N, and without name top majlis were started? Sure these were not from primordial times.
During the Momin Chetamani discussion (of Syed Imam Shah) it was refuted that there were any khojas at time of Prophet Muhammad, or Prophet gave Bibi Fatima 4 khojas as dowry. Please re visit the Momim Chetamani thread.
Whatever Moman Chetamni has said, it has said. No one can pretend Moman Chetamni did not say this. BK mijlas goes at least as far as Mukhi Harischandra and Tara Rani's time. I know you will not agree and this is the least of my worry. As I said several time, please read a little bit more on the Ismaili faith before posting
shivaathervedi wrote:
During the Momin Chetamani discussion (of Syed Imam Shah) it was refuted that there were any khojas at time of Prophet Muhammad, or Prophet gave Bibi Fatima 4 khojas as dowry. Please re visit the Momim Chetamani thread.
Sayyed Imam Shah in the Ginan: Tran tran ved states:
ejee aad unnaade aa satpa(n)th saacho
enne pa(n)the chaddee koi na valleeyo paachhojee............11
Since the beginning and indeed the pre-eternity this religion is the true one.
Anyone who has travelled upon this path has not returned.
Admin wrote:
You are mistaken, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah did not start Mijlases except for Chandraat Mijlas. All other including Baytul Khayal existed since time immemorial. For some Mijlases of Sacrifice or Service, the present Imam has made Farmans explaining that they go back to the time of Hazrat Ali.
Oh I know you will say there were 4 Khoja servants in the service of Bibi Fatima as per Ginans so the Mijlas at the time of Hazrat Ali was still a Khoja Mijlas....
In which Imam's time, majalis of life, F, N, and without name top majlis were started? Sure these were not from primordial times.
During the Momin Chetamani discussion (of Syed Imam Shah) it was refuted that there were any khojas at time of Prophet Muhammad, or Prophet gave Bibi Fatima 4 khojas as dowry. Please re visit the Momim Chetamani thread.
Whatever Moman Chetamni has said, it has said. No one can pretend Moman Chetamni did not say this. BK mijlas goes at least as far as Mukhi Harischandra and Tara Rani's time. I know you will not agree and this is the least of my worry. As I said several time, please read a little bit more on the Ismaili faith before posting
You did not address my question, in which Imam's time ,majalis of life, F, N, AND TOP MAJLIS started?
Religious get to gather, discussions forums, sat sungs exit from beginning. The question is related to modern time majalis.
The word Ismailism did not existed in times of Tara rani.
shivaathervedi wrote:
During the Momin Chetamani discussion (of Syed Imam Shah) it was refuted that there were any khojas at time of Prophet Muhammad, or Prophet gave Bibi Fatima 4 khojas as dowry. Please re visit the Momim Chetamani thread.
Sayyed Imam Shah in the Ginan: Tran tran ved states:
ejee aad unnaade aa satpa(n)th saacho
enne pa(n)the chaddee koi na valleeyo paachhojee............11
Since the beginning and indeed the pre-eternity this religion is the true one.
Anyone who has travelled upon this path has not returned.
Till today majority of Central Asian Ismailis and Arab Ismailis do not know about Veds and stories mentioned in that literature. You should know literally how that literature was developed. Pirs used that literature through Ginans to prove their point. From Hari to Naklanki.
It is aslo said by Pir Saheb;
KALEY BHOJAN JAMIYA TENA AAJHE SHA WAKHAN RE.
shivaathervedi wrote:
You did not address my question, in which Imam's time ,majalis of life, F, N, AND TOP MAJLIS started?
This information and dicussion is not for a public forum like this one. If you were a member you would know about such matters via Farmans read out in the respective majalis.
shivaathervedi wrote:
Till today majority of Central Asian Ismailis and Arab Ismailis do not know about Veds and stories mentioned in that literature.
Today there is no excuse not to know. Knowledge is becoming increasingly available.
That is the strength of diversity. Each tradition learns about other traditions gaining fresh insights into their own tradition.
In many areas of Central Asia there is no electricity, hence no luxury of internet. Majority do not know English, neither there are good libraries.
The question is about doctrines and not traditions. Ismaili doctrines are uniform.
shivaathervedi wrote:
You did not address my question, in which Imam's time ,majalis of life, F, N, AND TOP MAJLIS started?
This information and dicussion is not for a public forum like this one. If you were a member you would know about such matters via Farmans read out in the respective majalis.
I have asked a general question, don't think there is any secrecy. I am not questioning about Farman. The question is in which Imam's times these majalis started? It is like a question, when prince Rahim or prince hussain was born.
Why so secrecy,' touch me not Bashira'!!
shivaathervedi wrote:
I have asked a general question, don't think there is any secrecy. I am not questioning about Farman. The question is in which Imam's times these majalis started? It is like a question, when prince Rahim or prince hussain was born.
Why so secrecy,' touch me not Bashira'!!
As I said the Farmans indicate that majalis or gatherings of the same purpose have existed since time immemorial. They were called by different names.
shivaathervedi wrote:
I have asked a general question, don't think there is any secrecy. I am not questioning about Farman. The question is in which Imam's times these majalis started? It is like a question, when prince Rahim or prince hussain was born.
Why so secrecy,' touch me not Bashira'!!
As I said the Farmans indicate that majalis or gatherings of the same purpose have existed since time immemorial. They were called by different names.
In religious circles satsung, religious forums, religious gatherings did existed but my question is simple, let us take in this way if you shy to answer;
Which Imam gave the names of majalis like life, F, N and I know top majlis is nameless. When purpose is same then why they have different names with different aims? Should be one majlis, with one name, with one purpose, on same time.
All Mijlases have different purpose. Please ask Imam for guidance in this matter if you do not understand.
This subject is not appropriate for discussion in public Forum. What is private should remain private. If one day you become Ismaili, you will have access to these mijlases and will get your answers from listening to the Farmans.
kmaherali wrote:Why is Adam different than Muhammad?
Noor e Muhammadi is higher in status than Adam. It is recorded in many Shia traditions, when Adam and Eve became disobedient to God they repented by invoking names of Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Hussain and God forgave them in the name of Holy Five. Ismailis follow the same tradition and ask forgiveness of Allah by invoking names of Ahl e Bait in the 6th part of Du'a.
Ya Ali Madad:
I assume this the 10th avatar ( login id ).of a frustrated non Ismaili blogger totally unblessed wth Sufi/ batting perception of our faith
HATS OFF TO ADMIN FOR MODERATING & HAVING FANTASTIC SITE.
Divine Essence being the God beyond attributes or the absolute one which transcend all the attributes is the source of all these spiritual ranks down the heirarchy. We can say that Divine Essence is beyond understanding and comprehension. (Woh Khuda Hy kia Jo Samjh Ajaye)
On the other hand, Universal Intellect and Universal Soul who is the first and Second being are the ones which should be associated with the attributes or we can say that Universal Intellect and Soul, though being two being are actually one in true essence and it's God the Attributes.
Divine Command/Word (Ilahi Amr/Ism e Azam) inspires Universal Intellect and Soul to use their attributes, let's say to Create or Destroy, Being Merciful and Gracious etc. We can say Universal Intellect is Muhammad or Noor e Muhammadi. Noor e Muhammadi or Bhrama whatever you call it is always associated with the Knowledge. Prophets are known as the Knowledge givers. As one of the Hadees of Prophet says, " I am the city of Knowledge and Ali is it's gate ".
The source of lower Intellect in all the plains whether it's Human Intellect or Animal or Intellect of Jinnat, is from the Universal Intellect. Qadi Nauman has mentioned human intellect as "Nabi e Batuni" which means "Esoteric Prophet", because work of the human intellect is same as the Prophet, it helps an individual to understand cosmos which contains everything.
Universal Soul can be interpreted as Spritual Adam because it's the source of the Cosmos which includes all the creation in all the plains . We can say that Universal Soul is the origin of Cosmos/Matter/Energy or Cosmos is the Manifestation of the Universal Soul, as mentioned by Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah A.S in his Memoirs and I am paraphrasing it here (Anyone who has the original text can post it here). Imam says,
"This Universe which seems infinite is one of the infinite manifestation of the Universal Soul".
Though Divine Command/Word inspires Universal Soul and Intellect, in it's real essence all the three are one and can be perceived as Muhammad. As Pir Shams has mentioned in the first part of his granth Bhram Prakash,
Sat Shabd hai Guru Hamara
Meaning: The true "Word" is our "Guru" (Spritual Guide).
In Ginanic terminologies, the word Guru is associated with Muhammad or Noor e Muhammadi/Noor e Nabuat/Noor e Piratan.
The Divine Essence is Ali, as mentioned in Pir Sadardin's Granth "Momin Chitveni"
Pir has explained the Panjtan Pak with an example of a pure being whose pure chest is Fatima, pure head is Muhammad, pure eyes are Hassan and Hussain while the being himself is the Ali (Divine Essence).
Ismaili cosmology use this heirarchy to make us understand the concept of God and Creation but Esoterically, the heirarchy is itself One and that One is the Absolute One (Divine Essence), because in Ismailsm, one cannot differentiate between Ali and Muhammad, they both are actually One Noor (Divine Essence)
1.) As God is Above everything , So does it mean that Universal Intellect takes test? or The Universal Soul?
A. The taking of test is a explanation we give ourselves to make sense of the sufferings in our lives. Rather they must be considered to be a part of our corporeal life in this world. If and when they occur, they remind you of how fleeting our lives our and that we ought to wake up and act accordingly.
2.) Whats Ismaili Point of view on Tests Of Life , Which are taken by God, Are these same as Sunni and other muslim views
A. Ismaili views are diverse in accordance to the level you are situated at in your intellectual purification.
3.) Why Do God/Universal Intellect Takes Test when he already know what is going to happen?
A. Universal intellect is not God. And there not any testing but a series of accidents that occur because we are separated from the universal soul.
4.) If we consider God as Unconditioned Reality, Why do we call him as He ? or even normally , Why People Call or visualize God As Masculine
A. Nobody should, God can't be called anything, we call the universal intellect as He for it is the masculine principle. And reason why people call God as a He is that we tend to conceive the masculine as the origin of feminine.
5.) Thinking Of God as Unconditioned Reality , Which Means he does not depend on anyone , But Isnt God Depend on Prophets and Imam so its creation can recognize him , Like If is not dependable on anyone , why do he need prophets and imam or any other being for transmission of his message ?
A. God doesn't need anyone. The universal soul has created us and it doesn't need us either. It needs the prophets and Imams themselves so that through them, it may becomes one with the universal intellect.
6.) If 99 names of Allah , Are applied to Universal Intellect , then why Universal Soul Created Everything , not Universal Intellect , And Whats are the Qualities or Attributes of Universal Soul.
A. The universal intellect has the qualities of praise, worship and perfection. The soul has Majesty, action and sustenance.
7.) Even if we are bad soul [ the sinful one] are we still going to unite to Universal Soul isnt this going to make her Impure .
A. You won't. That's why there is hell for people like these. You will have to let go of all sins and impurities either in this life or hereafter and then you will die in the universal soul and become alive as the soul.
You never become the soul, you die before it.
8.)First thing ever created was Universal Intellect and in Hadith there is mention of Pen , Book , And Light of Prophet Muhammad . So Why Do We consider Imam as Reflection/Manifestation of Universal Intellect if first ever thing created was Prophet Light ? Why Universal Intellect is Called Muhammadan Reality , Why Universal Soul is not called Muhammadan Reality
A. Because Prophet Muhammad also achieved the status of Imam and the then muslims didn't acknowledge the Imamate as much as they wholesome did for prophet Muhammad.
9.) If we consider Prophet Muhammad as a Pir , so does it mean that Pirs are also Prophet ?
A. Pirs are technically greater than the Prophets, except perhaps some prophets have achieved the status of Imamate and so that may change.
10.) What is the difference between Imam and Prophet , as whatever authority Prophet also Imam have.
A. Imam is Universal intellect and prophets are at different levels depending on the person of the individual prophets.
11.) Is Revelation is from of Quran is from Allah or From Universal Intellect ? as Allah is beyond Knowledge . Or is prophet reading/translating the spiritual knowledge as he is manifestation of Universal Soul so whatever Knowledge Universal Soul have , also Prophet have .
A. Revelation is Light emanating from the universal intellect that united in Muhammad and then, the Prophet spoke the light in human language.
12.) Is it really important to follow Quran as a source of life or Farmans of Imam are enough , i mean As He is manifestation of Universal Intellect , He Know More , Than Prophet (if prophet is reciting from Universal Soul's Knowledge)
A. Prophet Muhammad was a natiq and so He spoke in a literal fashion what our Imams speak in batin or esoterically. The status does not get affected because of their different interpretations.
13.) O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. [Surah Nisa , 59] Why Do Quran says that If you disagree over anything refer it to Allah and the messenger , How can we disagree from Imam , As he is designated by Nass
A. It says obey Allah and the messanger and the Imam. If you disagree (as this point in time) confirm this by going back to the prophet and asking for clarity in regards to this command of Allah.