Four type of Deedar

[FreeLancer]

How do you know? Have you been present at all Bol ceremonies?
The fact that I am asking you this question - should be an answer to your assertion that the Imam only gives Bol in Arabic without going into a lot of details.

Bol can be any word that the Imam chooses. Why are you setting rules on the Imam? Islam is a universal faith - not bound by a single culture or language.

Shams

Some one told me you were a missionary may be still active.
Your question, how I come to know, is not a difficult question for me. I have discussed BOL subject with many missionaries, even they were kind enough to provide me BK Farmans with restrictions. It is on that information I wrote Imam grants BOL from the Attribute names of Allah. Past many years Imam is asking murids to recite names of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali. He NEVER said to recite names of Om, Hari, Krishna.
Shams Saheb in 5th part of Du'a what you recite 'Ya Ali Ya Muhammad' or Har e Krishna- Har e Rama.

Once again - Have you been present at all the Bol ceremonies conducted by Hazar Imam?
You like quoting ginans - i'll quote one...paraphrasing
..Azazil Firashta Bujo bhai...
chattris karod kitaba pariya..par bhitar bhed na janiya...

I think i've made my point.

Faith doesn't require proof. If the Imam were to say he spoke all languages, you would ask him to prove it to you. When you realize that the Imam can give any word - any word to be that link - and it could be Om or Hare Krishna - you will then decry him as not an Imam - because he doesn't stick to Arabic. I am surprised that you haven't called him out not being an Imam - because he doesn't wear what Imams are supposed to wear.

Another ginan I will quote in closing...

Ek fikar munivar tamaari chhe amne
maannas rupe saaheb jaanno ho bhaai ji

I am assuming i don't need to translate.

One cannot even begin to fathom the depths of who or what the Imam truly is. Or what faith truly is - or love ..which is what bandagi actually is...and in love - there is no boundaries of religion or language.

Shams

In my post I mentioned that I got this information from some senior missionaries. You asked me again," Have you been present at all the Bol ceremonies conducted by Hazar Imam"?
Now it is my turn," Were you present in Bol ceremonies where you witness Imam bestowed Ism as Hari or Om or Rama to Bol seekers"? You quoted a part of Ginan;
..Azazil Firashta Bujo bhai...
chattris karod kitaba pariya..par bhitar bhed na janiya..

I am dying to see any library with chhatris kror books. Even library of Congress in New York does not have. Don't mind it is just a passing remark. I like the character of Azazil. He sacrificed himself for cause of God. He full filled the plan of God. Say, if he had bowed in front of Adam, the God's drama should have been flopped, and He had to re write new script. I know you like poetry of Iqbal (you are from same area Punjab). Allamah Iqbal said, it is a conversation in between Gabriel and Azazil:

GAR FURSAT HO MUYYASSR TOU PUCHH ALLAH SE
QISA E ADAM KO RANGEEN KAR GAYA KIS KA LAHU
MAI(N) KHATAKTA HU(N) DIL E YAZDAN MEY KANTE KI TARAH
TU FAQAT ALLAHU ALLAHU ALLAHU ALLAHU

Our Du'a is in Arabic, Janazah, Eid Namaz, Ziarat, Juma Namaz, Nikah these are all in Arabic, then why is this fuss all about.

We do not have photo/picture of Noor, we see Imam in human form, we adore him, obey him, love him.

You like poetry, here is a couplet for you:

JO SAMINEY HAI USSEY LOG BURRA KAHTEY HAI(N)
JISEY DEKHA BHI NAHI USS KO KHUDA KHATEY HAI(N)

[kmaherali]

Just for understanding, Bol is like an elevator (lift) which in a minute help a person to reach top floor (destination) of Burj Al Khalifa. Where as other means is like using stairs to reach top floor.

With a Bol or Ism e Azam given by Murshid e Kamil is more effective and helps adept to succeed in his/her spiritual mission. Without Murshid e Kamil and Bol, it is difficult for a salik to advance in bandagi leaps and bound. Without Murshid it is difficult and time consuming.

OK you found the word 'non-sense' an offence.

Are you now saying that it is fair that khojas are given the elevator and others are condemned to climb the stairs?

Help of the Mursheed is vital. However Bol is not the only means of his help. There are other forms as well.

[FreeLancer]

Just for understanding, Bol is like an elevator (lift) which in a minute help a person to reach top floor (destination) of Burj Al Khalifa. Where as other means is like using stairs to reach top floor.

With a Bol or Ism e Azam given by Murshid e Kamil is more effective and helps adept to succeed in his/her spiritual mission. Without Murshid e Kamil and Bol, it is difficult for a salik to advance in bandagi leaps and bound. Without Murshid it is difficult and time consuming.

OK you found the word 'non-sense' an offence.

Are you now saying that it is fair that khojas are given the elevator and others are condemned to climb the stairs?

Help of the Mursheed is vital. However Bol is not the only means of his help. There are other forms as well.

I wrote, without Murshid and Ism e Azam (bol), it is difficult for salik to continue his spiritual mission and achieve the goal. He needs guidance, protection, and encouragement from Murshid to continue his journey and should not sit back in despair.

You wrote," Bol is not the only means, there are other forms also".
Let me give you my example, I sleep around 1 am at night. It is not possible for me to get up at 3 am and prepare for bandagi from 4-5 am. According to Imam's Hidayat vird of Bol should be in between 4-5 and not any other time during day. As you suggest there are other means also, please let me know what are these means so that without Bol and Murshid I can continue my spiritual journey.

[kmaherali]

I wrote, without Murshid and Ism e Azam (bol), it is difficult for salik to continue his spiritual mission and achieve the goal. He needs guidance, protection, and encouragement from Murshid to continue his journey and should not sit back in despair.

I agree with you that the guidance, protection and encouragement from the Murshid are important. However that is seperate from taking Bol. Taking Bol is voluntary and not necessary.

You wrote," Bol is not the only means, there are other forms also".
Let me give you my example, I sleep around 1 am at night. It is not possible for me to get up at 3 am and prepare for bandagi from 4-5 am. According to Imam's Hidayat vird of Bol should be in between 4-5 and not any other time during day. As you suggest there are other means also, please let me know what are these means so that without Bol and Murshid I can continue my spiritual journey.

On Dec 13th 2008 MHI made the following Farman:

"Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah, and those that are part of the Sharia, common to all Muslims, albeit with denominational specificities. Examples of this are the historic co-existence between Namaz and Du'a, and the concept of private prayer and personal search, which has an important place in Islam, since it concerns the relationship of faith with life. It is in this light that, in Shia Ismaili Islam, the Imam-of-the-Time recognises a variety of prayers, tasbihs, Bait-ul-Khayal, Qaseedas, Ginans, by which an individual can submit to the Divine and protect himself or herself against the materialism of secular life, and the many other challenges of daily life."

From the above Farman it is quite clear the BUK is not the only means of submission. We have a variety of prayers, tasbihs, Qasidas and Ginans as well.

If you have taken Bol, then BUK is compulsory. If you haven't like myself, then BUK (4-5 am) is not compulsory.

[FreeLancer]

I wrote, without Murshid and Ism e Azam (bol), it is difficult for salik to continue his spiritual mission and achieve the goal. He needs guidance, protection, and encouragement from Murshid to continue his journey and should not sit back in despair.

I agree with you that the guidance, protection and encouragement from the Murshid are important. However that is seperate from taking Bol. Taking Bol is voluntary and not necessary.

You wrote," Bol is not the only means, there are other forms also".
Let me give you my example, I sleep around 1 am at night. It is not possible for me to get up at 3 am and prepare for bandagi from 4-5 am. According to Imam's Hidayat vird of Bol should be in between 4-5 and not any other time during day. As you suggest there are other means also, please let me know what are these means so that without Bol and Murshid I can continue my spiritual journey.

On Dec 13th 2008 MHI made the following Farman:

"Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah, and those that are part of the Sharia, common to all Muslims, albeit with denominational specificities. Examples of this are the historic co-existence between Namaz and Du'a, and the concept of private prayer and personal search, which has an important place in Islam, since it concerns the relationship of faith with life. It is in this light that, in Shia Ismaili Islam, the Imam-of-the-Time recognises a variety of prayers, tasbihs, Bait-ul-Khayal, Qaseedas, Ginans, by which an individual can submit to the Divine and protect himself or herself against the materialism of secular life, and the many other challenges of daily life."

From the above Farman it is quite clear the BUK is not the only means of submission. We have a variety of prayers, tasbihs, Qasidas and Ginans as well.

If you have taken Bol, then BUK is compulsory. If you haven't like myself, then BUK (4-5 am) is not compulsory.

When Ginans, Qasidahs, Tasbihaat, and variety of Prayers are enough for spiritual search then I think there is no need of majlis BK and Bol.
Imam's above Farman was related to comparison of Namaz and Du'a because he wanted to start Namaz and explained both can co exist.
Till today Tariqa and top leadership is scratching their heads how to implement.

[kmaherali]

When Ginans, Qasidahs, Tasbihaat, and variety of Prayers are enough for spiritual search then I think there is no need of majlis BK and Bol.
Imam's above Farman was related to comparison of Namaz and Du'a because he wanted to start Namaz and explained both can co exist.
Till today Tariqa and top leadership is scratching their heads how to implement.

That is the reason that BUK and Bol are voluntary and were only given to khojas as a boost from excessive materialism. There is no connection between Namaz and Dua. BUK is a separate issue.

[FreeLancer]

When Ginans, Qasidahs, Tasbihaat, and variety of Prayers are enough for spiritual search then I think there is no need of majlis BK and Bol.
Imam's above Farman was related to comparison of Namaz and Du'a because he wanted to start Namaz and explained both can co exist.
Till today Tariqa and top leadership is scratching their heads how to implement.

That is the reason that BUK and Bol are voluntary and were only given to khojas as a boost from excessive materialism. There is no connection between Namaz and Dua. BUK is a separate issue.

You quoted the Farman regarding Namaz and Du'a.
In the time of 46th Imam when BK majlis was introduced khojas/mominas were poor masses. Mostly were peasants, laborers, poor farmers. Life was miserable for them. As I wrote before, there was a taunting phrase used for them," khoja uthao bhoja". Under such circumstances, how was it possible that those khojas/mominas be materialists?
Even today, take example of khojas/mominas practicing Bol. Hardly 5-10% of jamait present 4-5 am on any given day for zikr.

[Admin]

In the time of 46th Imam when BK majlis was introduced khojas/mominas were poor masses. Mostly were peasants, laborers, poor farmers. Life was miserable for them. .

You are misguided. Maybe life is miserable for you but Baitul Khayal was there since times immemorial. Tara Rani used to practice it and the Prophet himself used to practice it. There is even a Farman saying that the strength of Muslims in the past came from practicing BK.

Again I am warning you to stop making statements which have no truth in them. This is an Ismaili Forum, not a conversion platform where you come to preach some cult.

This thread is on various form of Deedar. If you have nothing to contribute, please do not post

[kmaherali]

You quoted the Farman regarding Namaz and Du'a.
In the time of 46th Imam when BK majlis was introduced khojas/mominas were poor masses. Mostly were peasants, laborers, poor farmers. Life was miserable for them. As I wrote before, there was a taunting phrase used for them," khoja uthao bhoja". Under such circumstances, how was it possible that those khojas/mominas be materialists?
Even today, take example of khojas/mominas practicing Bol. Hardly 5-10% of jamait present 4-5 am on any given day for zikr.

I quoted Dua and Namaz but it has nothing to do with BUK. It is just a separate matter.

BUK has been practiced since time immemorial. However the granting of Bol as a special practice has been recent. Materialism is a state of mind. It is not about how much wealth one has. One can be greedy/lusty even though he is poor whereas a rich person can be chaste/charitable.

[Admin]

Didar be it Zaheri or Batini is whenever and wherever Imam decide to give Didar, be it in Jamatkhana or in the street.

[Admin]

BUK has been practiced since time immemorial. However the granting of Bol as a special practice has been recent.

If Bol was a recent event, there would not be several dozen ginans talking of the "Ajampiya Jamp"

Because Bol is a private matter, people in the past have not been discussing it openly, which does not mean that Imam was not giving Bol in the past, be it in the Time of Hazrat Ali, before and after.

[kmaherali]

If Bol was a recent event, there would not be several dozen ginans talking of the "Ajampiya Jamp"

Because Bol is a private matter, people in the past have not been discussing it openly, which does not mean that Imam was not giving Bol in the past, be it in the Time of Hazrat Ali, before and after.

"Ajampia Jamp" is not Bol. "Ajampia Jamp" means unpronounceable word. These are sound vibrations which are felt by murids advancing on the path.

[Admin]

Ajampia Jamp" is not Bol. "Ajampia Jamp" means unpronounceable word. These are sound vibrations which are felt by murids advancing on the path.

Lets agree to disagree.

[FreeLancer]

If Bol was a recent event, there would not be several dozen ginans talking of the "Ajampiya Jamp"

Because Bol is a private matter, people in the past have not been discussing it openly, which does not mean that Imam was not giving Bol in the past, be it in the Time of Hazrat Ali, before and after.

"Ajampia Jamp" is not Bol. "Ajampia Jamp" means unpronounceable word. These are sound vibrations which are felt by murids advancing on the path.

Ajumpia jaa(n)m is a saas usaas (breathing) yoga system in Hindu dharma from beginning repeating constantly some words. Sound vibrations are related to word OM.

[kmaherali]

Sound vibrations are related to word OM.

Sound vibrations are not related to any particular word.

[FreeLancer]

Sound vibrations are related to word OM.

Sound vibrations are not related to any particular word.

Then what kind of these vibrations are?

[kmaherali]

Then what kind of these vibrations are?

As per Ginan verse:

sakhee hi(n)che hinnddollaa khaatt ke saas usaase re
maaraa a(n)gaddaa maa utthee chhe laher piyaajee ke paase re......3

O my Friend! My breath is swaying like a swing. Ripples of love gush within my body when I am near my Beloved.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23120

[FreeLancer]

Then what kind of these vibrations are?

As per Ginan verse:

sakhee hi(n)che hinnddollaa khaatt ke saas usaase re
maaraa a(n)gaddaa maa utthee chhe laher piyaajee ke paase re......3

O my Friend! My breath is swaying like a swing. Ripples of love gush within my body when I am near my Beloved.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23120

Laher means wave.
When a lover reaches near beloved his/her rhythm of heart increases with joy. These heart beats are not called vibrations. These are calm joyous waves of happiness.

[Admin]

Laher means wave.
When a lover reaches near beloved his/her rhythm of heart increases with joy. These heart beats are not called vibrations. These are calm joyous waves of happiness.

We all know of the anecdote of Sultan Muhammad Shah been presented 7 translations of a ginan and he said the meaning that the Pir intended has not been covered in these 7 translations.

We are not going to debate vocabulary here. People have their own preference for translations and meanings nor can we play Trump vs Kim's famous song "my button is bigger than yours"

[Admin]

so what is your problem. If you have some extra ordinary knowledge about what Pirs intended to convey, please share your knowledge with us. May be you are flying on 7th sky of spiritualism.

Rules of posting do not allow any personal attack. Your posts will be deleted up to the time you digest this policy.

[FreeLancer]

so what is your problem. If you have some extra ordinary knowledge about what Pirs intended to convey, please share your knowledge with us. May be you are flying on 7th sky of spiritualism.

Rules of posting do not allow any personal attack. Your posts will be deleted up to the time you digest this policy.

You make the rules and brakes the rules.
As Admin you should also have to abide by rules. If you taunt or disrespect others it will be reciprocated to you.

[FreeLancer]

Laher means wave.
When a lover reaches near beloved his/her rhythm of heart increases with joy. These heart beats are not called vibrations. These are calm joyous waves of happiness.

We all know of the anecdote of Sultan Muhammad Shah been presented 7 translations of a ginan and he said the meaning that the Pir intended has not been covered in these 7 translations.

We are not going to debate vocabulary here. People have their own preference for translations and meanings nor can we play Trump vs Kim's famous song "my button is bigger than yours"

It is not the question of my button is bigger than yours or my bottom is bigger than yours.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in one on his Farmans said,( Discuss my Farmans ), then why not Ginans. If 7 translations were not correct, then who will give us correct translation or Ta'leem about Ginans? How we come to know, what Pir intended to convey his message?
By discussing Ginans or Farmans, understanding vocabulary and translation we are adding and sharing knowledge.

[Nuseri_1]

To Kmaherali,Admin & ShamsB:
YA ALI MADAD.
If human beings are moving in a car called Haqiaqti,If a dog outside running alongside keeps barking at the car.

[deleted by Admin]

-----------------------------------

Note from Admin:

Offensive posts are not allowed. Reed rules of posting before posting.

[kmaherali]

Laher means wave.
When a lover reaches near beloved his/her rhythm of heart increases with joy. These heart beats are not called vibrations. These are calm joyous waves of happiness.

OK may be waves or ripples according to you do not produce vibrations. How about:

nahee tur jahaa(n) hay bee turaa, nahee(n) sur jahaa(n) hay bee suraa..........................................................71

You hear a flute (or a trumpet) without the presence of a flute and you hear music without the presence of musicians. [Tur is a windward musical instrument and sounds like a 'sharnai'. Compare with what Peer Sadardeen says in another of his geenaans: "Anek vaajaa vaaji(n)tero vaaje, akalla svaroop dekhee duniyaa laaje", meaning, " there is the sound of several musical instruments (celestial music) and hearing all this the worldly mind boggles".]

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/31376

[FreeLancer]

Laher means wave.
When a lover reaches near beloved his/her rhythm of heart increases with joy. These heart beats are not called vibrations. These are calm joyous waves of happiness.

OK may be waves or ripples according to you do not produce vibrations. How about:

nahee tur jahaa(n) hay bee turaa, nahee(n) sur jahaa(n) hay bee suraa..........................................................71

You hear a flute (or a trumpet) without the presence of a flute and you hear music without the presence of musicians. [Tur is a windward musical instrument and sounds like a 'sharnai'. Compare with what Peer Sadardeen says in another of his geenaans: "Anek vaajaa vaaji(n)tero vaaje, akalla svaroop dekhee duniyaa laaje", meaning, " there is the sound of several musical instruments (celestial music) and hearing all this the worldly mind boggles".]

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/31376

In Braham Prakash many such similes are used by Pir. For example;

kaho kon so kahi-e turaa - kaho kon so kahi e suraa..........................................................................73
Ask, with whom can we discuss the sound of the flute and ask with whom can we discuss the brightness of the sun.

kaho konku(n) kahee-e ga(n)gaa - kaho konku(n) kahee-e sa(n)gaa....................................................74
Ask, with whom we can discuss this Ganges and with whom can we discuss this company.

anhad naad baaje jahaa(n) turaa - te j puja uge jahaa(n) suraa......................................................75
Where the unlimited sounds are heard, there is the Flute and where there is abundant light, there is the Sun.

When Salik reaches at higher spiritual station he hears the sound of flute without flute, sees flashing lights, sees water without river, or sees sun light without sun and so on. At this station Salik is spiritually intoxicated as he has drank Madera and lost his senses. At this stage there are no vibrations but desire to see Him.

[kmaherali]

At this stage there are no vibrations but desire to see Him.

The Ginan states that sounds of flute and trumpets are heard and of course they are vibrations. These are evidences of higher life beyond sensory perceptions.

[FreeLancer]

At this stage there are no vibrations but desire to see Him.

The Ginan states that sounds of flute and trumpets are heard and of course they are vibrations. These are evidences of higher life beyond sensory perceptions.

Sound needs a medium for transmission. Sound is reception of waves and their perception by the brain. But soul does not has brain. Also sounds seize in space and ether.

[kmaherali]

Sound needs a medium for transmission. Sound is reception of waves and their perception by the brain. But soul does not has brain. Also sounds seize in space and ether.

That is what I am trying to tell you. The verses indicate mystical experiences which are not mediated through the normal sensory perceptions which are dependent on the conditions of space and time. The experiences are beyond space and time as we normally perceive them.

[FreeLancer]

Sound needs a medium for transmission. Sound is reception of waves and their perception by the brain. But soul does not has brain. Also sounds seize in space and ether.

That is what I am trying to tell you. The verses indicate mystical experiences which are not mediated through the normal sensory perceptions which are dependent on the conditions of space and time. The experiences are beyond space and time as we normally perceive them.

In poetic literature there is a word used called PUN, means play on words. The flute type of similes are available also in Farsi, Sindhi, Punjabi, Sindhi, Gujrati poetry. When soul is merged with God there will be tranquility and no sounds.

[kmaherali]

When soul is merged with God there will be tranquility and no sounds.

This Ginan is not about the soul merged with God. It is about the soul journeying toward the goal. In the process it experiences many mystical states alluding to a higher life. The sounds are heard according to the Ginan!