Allah and the Nur of Allah

[FreeLancer]

In my opinion:
Soul or Noor is the heart beat of universe. Every creation has soul or Noor particles. Witout Soul or Noor body is like a light bulb without electricity, a computor without software. The movement in universe and creation is because of this Soul. This Noor or Soul is the binding force of universe. The Noor is like glue which binds particles of different bodies small or large together. There is a very beautiful line said by Allamah Iqbal the famous poet of subcontinent;

LAHU KHORSHEED KA TAPKE GAR ZAREY KA DIL CHEEREI(N)

Trans; If some one split or dissect the heart of ray, the blood (Light or Noor) of sun will trickle.
The Soul or Noor is the foundation of 'aql, intelect or brain power. Those who use intellect or brain power are mostly successful in wordly or sriritual affairs.

[FreeLancer]

The explanation of 'Al ARDH' and 'SAMAWAT' by Karim is appreciable. Let me add my opinion about Al ARDH. In Quran an important word is used i.e AR RUH. In Ginan a word used is PURUSH. Now this word PURUSH, AR RUH, or AL ARDH is used for Al Insaanul Kamil who will guide and help in spiritual domain.

[kmaherali]

In my opinion:
Soul or Noor is the heart beat of universe. Every creation has soul or Noor particles. Witout Soul or Noor body is like a light bulb without electricity, a computor without software. The movement in universe and creation is because of this Soul. This Noor or Soul is the binding force of universe. The Noor is like glue which binds particles of different bodies small or large together. There is a very beautiful line said by Allamah Iqbal the famous poet of subcontinent;

LAHU KHORSHEED KA TAPKE GAR ZAREY KA DIL CHEEREI(N)

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us.

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

[FreeLancer]

What is difference in between NOOR and NAAR? In Arabic both words have same root letters.

[kmaherali]

An-Nar (Arabic: نار) Literally means fire, but usually means the Fire of the next world, including all seven levels of Hell-fire as a whole. It is a derivative of the noun نور (Nur) which means “luminosity”. Hence, the Arabic word for “fire” gets its name due to its incandescence. When looking for the word Nar in classical Arabic lexica one will have to look up Nur in order to find it.

“an-Nar: Called thus due to its flame which is perceivable by the senses..and for the Nar of Hell mentioned in His Word:…[Burning with men and rock] in al-Baqarah 24..”

http://islamic-dictionary.tumblr.com/po ... s-fire-but

[FreeLancer]

An-Nar (Arabic: نار) Literally means fire, but usually means the Fire of the next world, including all seven levels of Hell-fire as a whole. It is a derivative of the noun نور (Nur) which means “luminosity”. Hence, the Arabic word for “fire” gets its name due to its incandescence. When looking for the word Nar in classical Arabic lexica one will have to look up Nur in order to find it.

“an-Nar: Called thus due to its flame which is perceivable by the senses..and for the Nar of Hell mentioned in His Word:…[Burning with men and rock] in al-Baqarah 24..”

http://islamic-dictionary.tumblr.com/po ... s-fire-but

NAAR (fire) is from NOOR therefore, is Noor be considered as fire?
Why poor rocks/stones will burn in fire along men? Are rocks sinner as men?

[FreeLancer]

Can some one explain, what is Noorani Dedaar? Do we see a MAN OF LIGHT or shining face of Imam during bandagi? But Noor is formless and faceless!!

[FreeLancer]

There are some Sanskrit words resembling Arabic words with same meaning. Here I am giving two examples.
Sanskrit: Devta, deva ,deep.
Arabic: Dhiya' (ziya) means light, luminosity. Dhiyau Shams means sun light.

Sanskrit: Nar (guru who bestow ilmi light or wisdom to get nirvana)
Arabic: Noor (Noor Mowlana, Imam who bestow intellectual light to path of Nirvana)

My understanding: Nar (as used in Ginans) is Noor as well as Naar. We pay attention to Noor by neglecting Naar, until we shall not burn ourselves with love in Naar we can not achieve Noor.

[kmaherali]

Can some one explain, what is Noorani Dedaar? Do we see a MAN OF LIGHT or shining face of Imam during bandagi? But Noor is formless and faceless!!

There has been discussion on this at:

Doctrines --> Four type of Deedar

[FreeLancer]

Can some one explain, what is Noorani Dedaar? Do we see a MAN OF LIGHT or shining face of Imam during bandagi? But Noor is formless and faceless!!

There has been discussion on this at:

Doctrines --> Four type of Deedar

Let me quote from the thread you mentioned. You wrote,"
Noorani Deedar means a total experience of awe, wonder filled with peace, love and contentment felt by an individual with or without any Zaheri perspective It is something that is given and not acquired. Noorani Deedar is a subset of Batini Deedar".

Your answer and explanation is not what I asked. My question is; Do one can see the MAN OF LIGHT or SHINING FACE OF IMAM during Noorani Dedaar?
Your answer for Noorani Dedaar is love, peace, contenment and so on.

[FreeLancer]

Noor is not a substance though it is embedded in all substance and matter.
Noor is faceless, colorless, formless, odorless, foamless.....
All our Imams from Mowla Ali to Imam Shah Karim have declared that Allah is beyond imagination and comprehension. The word Nirinjin in Ginans also indicates the same theme. As Allah is beyond imagination so His Noor is also.
Therefore a murid can not have Noorani Dedaar in his life time.

[kmaherali]

Therefore a murid can not have Noorani Dedaar in his life time.

Please let us carry on the discussion about Deedar in the Deedar thread. Otherwise we will be mixing subjects in this thread.

[FreeLancer]

There is a couplet in Ginan;

NOOR NA PIYALA CHHANDHITI
DEKHO HURAA(N) AAEI RE

Look Huurs have brought bowls filled with NOOR.

Is Noor a form of liquid can be poured in cups or bowls for distribution?
Why the word HUUR is used and not an ANGEL?

[kmaherali]

There is a couplet in Ginan;

NOOR NA PIYALA CHHANDHITI
DEKHO HURAA(N) AAEI RE

Look Huurs have brought bowls filled with NOOR.

Is Noor a form of liquid can be poured in cups or bowls for distribution?
Why the word HUUR is used and not an ANGEL?

Of course Ginans are allegorical and hence cannot be interpreted literally. The verse that you are referring to is:

Khatt ghaddi raat rahi tame cheto moraa bhaaire,
noor-naa piyaalaa huraaoon chhantt ti aaire - tun jaag 3

O my brother! The six ghaddis of the night have remained, now be vigilant about it. The houries have come sprinkling from the vessels of Noor. Wake up....

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/32854

Just as our body thirsts for water, our soul thirsts for the Nur. In this sense the Nur is considered as 'liquid' which can be poured into spiritual containers. 'Drinking' this Nur one becomes spiritually quenched and nourished.

There isn't any difference between houris and angels:

Houri
Previous (Hotspot (geology))Next (House Un-American Activities Committee)
In Islam, the word Houri (Arabic: حورية,‎ also ḥūr or ḥūrīyah) refers to heavenly angels, splendid beings,[1] or celestial virgins who await the saved in paradise after death; alternatively, the term may designate delicious white raisins found in the Qur'anic account of paradise.[2]

Islam teaches that heavenly delights await believers in paradise. Usually translated as "virgins," the Houri appear frequently in Muslim writings. Their various accounts and descriptions have been the source of much speculation and debate concerning the role of sexual intercourse in heaven.[3]

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Houri

[sheri]

Since there is no standard definition of the word Noor, Noorani Deedar could mean different things to different people. To some it means spiritual enlightenment (leading to Ali-Allah), to some it means Soul, to some it means Light (Guidance), to some it means (Ab-e-Shafa), to some it means (Ginans), to some it is the creator, to some it means all the above.

Terms like Allah, God, Noor, Soul, Big Bang are intangibles. They are concepts which are introduced so that we as humans can explain the most basic of questions "where did we come from?" This question has haunted humans from the very beginning. Since we as humans can't explain this most basic question, we created intangibles that no one has experienced or seen so there would be way to prove its existence intellectually. These words Allah, God, Noor, Soul, Big Bang are all in the same category. No one can proof its existence, however, they are necessary as we don't know the real answer to the question "where did we come from?"

[Admin]

No one can proof its existence, however, they are necessary as we don't know the real answer to the question "where did we come from?"

This is the case of all concept related to faith, regardless of the religion

[kmaherali]

These words Allah, God, Noor, Soul, Big Bang are all in the same category. No one can proof its existence, however, they are necessary as we don't know the real answer to the question "where did we come from?"

It is true that such answers are not known through ordinary means. However they can be known through extraordinary means and these are provided through the contact with the right authority - in the case of Ismailism the chain of Imamat.

[FreeLancer]

These words Allah, God, Noor, Soul, Big Bang are all in the same category. No one can proof its existence, however, they are necessary as we don't know the real answer to the question "where did we come from?"

It is true that such answers are not known through ordinary means. However they can be known through extraordinary means and these are provided through the contact with the right authority - in the case of Ismailism the chain of Imamat.

You wrote," ... in the case of Ismailism the chain of Imamat".
Let us request our Imam/Pir to give us the real definition of Noor, Soul, Sa'a, Huur? For sure we shall get allegorical answers.

[FreeLancer]

There is a couplet in Ginan;

NOOR NA PIYALA CHHANDHITI
DEKHO HURAA(N) AAEI RE

Look Huurs have brought bowls filled with NOOR.

Is Noor a form of liquid can be poured in cups or bowls for distribution?
Why the word HUUR is used and not an ANGEL?

Of course Ginans are allegorical and hence cannot be interpreted literally. The verse that you are referring to is:

Khatt ghaddi raat rahi tame cheto moraa bhaaire,
noor-naa piyaalaa huraaoon chhantt ti aaire - tun jaag 3

O my brother! The six ghaddis of the night have remained, now be vigilant about it. The houries have come sprinkling from the vessels of Noor. Wake up....

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/32854

Just as our body thirsts for water, our soul thirsts for the Nur. In this sense the Nur is considered as 'liquid' which can be poured into spiritual containers. 'Drinking' this Nur one becomes spiritually quenched and nourished.

There isn't any difference between houris and angels:

Houri
Previous (Hotspot (geology))Next (House Un-American Activities Committee)
In Islam, the word Houri (Arabic: حورية,‎ also ḥūr or ḥūrīyah) refers to heavenly angels, splendid beings,[1] or celestial virgins who await the saved in paradise after death; alternatively, the term may designate delicious white raisins found in the Qur'anic account of paradise.[2]

Islam teaches that heavenly delights await believers in paradise. Usually translated as "virgins," the Houri appear frequently in Muslim writings. Their various accounts and descriptions have been the source of much speculation and debate concerning the role of sexual intercourse in heaven.[3]

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Houri

Appreciate your answer you tried hard. The definition which you adopted from hot spot about houri mentions three meanings, splendid beings, heavenly angels, celestial virgins, which is correct?
In Quran for angels the word used is malik, plural malaika. No where in Quran is mentioned that Huurs and Malika are same.

Of course many Ginana are in allegorical forms, I think it is only Pir who can explain the reality in Ginans. Pir's intention is appreciable like in this Ginan;
Khatt gaddi ...... Tame jago mera bhai (for ibadat). But why he allure the sleeping person, look the pretty Huur has come, why not the word malik used at least for men? Please don't be annoyed. With the name of pretty Huur the sleeping bag may jump up from the bed.

[sheri]

These words Allah, God, Noor, Soul, Big Bang are all in the same category. No one can proof its existence, however, they are necessary as we don't know the real answer to the question "where did we come from?"

It is true that such answers are not known through ordinary means. However they can be known through extraordinary means and these are provided through the contact with the right authority - in the case of Ismailism the chain of Imamat.

So after 8000+ years of humans presence we still don't know what are Soul, God, Nur etc. There are 7.5 billion people on earth and we still can't determine the answers to these questions. We have had Pirs telling us about every little details about life, but have not answered the most pertinent question about what is Soul, Nur etc. We have a living Imam for 49 generations (1400 years) who refers to the soul but does not explain what it is - the word Soul was introduced by Ancient religions and adopted by Islam. Here is a nice article on it:
https://www.livescience.com/7631-human- ... -idea.html

[FreeLancer]

Other perspective:

We can not compare Allah with any object in universe. LAISA KA MISLI SHAI'.
Allah does not have any opposite word or gender.
When we say Allah is Noor, there comes its opposite word Zulumaat (darkness), as used in Quran. But Allah is beyond comparison or comprehension so how can we fit the word Noor in this equation?

[kmaherali]

Other perspective:

We can not compare Allah with any object in universe. LAISA KA MISLI SHAI'.
Allah does not have any opposite word or gender.
When we say Allah is Noor, there comes its opposite word Zulumaat (darkness), as used in Quran. But Allah is beyond comparison or comprehension so how can we fit the word Noor in this equation?

The Qur'an states that Allah is the Nur. It is not comparing Allah to anything but rather it is the best way of 'describing' or 'relating' Him to us through symbolism of Nur.

[FreeLancer]

Other perspective:

We can not compare Allah with any object in universe. LAISA KA MISLI SHAI'.
Allah does not have any opposite word or gender.
When we say Allah is Noor, there comes its opposite word Zulumaat (darkness), as used in Quran. But Allah is beyond comparison or comprehension so how can we fit the word Noor in this equation?

The Qur'an states that Allah is the Nur. It is not comparing Allah to anything but rather it is the best way of 'describing' or 'relating' Him to us through symbolism of Nur.

In other words you imply that Noor is symbol or trade mark of Allah. In reality Allah has not described what is Noor? Things are recognized by their opposites. Opposite to Noor (light) is Zulimat (darkness) as mentioned in Quran. Noor has its opposite but God is beyond comparison for which the word NIRINJIN is used in Ginans.

[kmaherali]

In other words you imply that Noor is symbol or trade mark of Allah. In reality Allah has not described what is Noor? Things are recognized by their opposites. Opposite to Noor (light) is Zulimat (darkness) as mentioned in Quran. Noor has its opposite but God is beyond comparison for which the word NIRINJIN is used in Ginans.

There is a verse of Saloko Nano which states:

satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10

The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).

The above verse suggests that there are two levels of light. The first level is that of Niraakaar Nirinjan - the formless and unknowable.

Then there is the second level which is the Universal Intellect through which the guidance is given and is manifested in the Pir.

In another Ginan: NarNaklank keri vaat, it is stated:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning,
is indeed in the form of Ali.

Prophet Muhammad the Pir is the manifestation of the guidance (light of intellect). Ali is the manifestation of the Nirinjan.

In another Ginan: Imami aa jugmaanhe jaaniye, it is stated:

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22889

[FreeLancer]

In other words you imply that Noor is symbol or trade mark of Allah. In reality Allah has not described what is Noor? Things are recognized by their opposites. Opposite to Noor (light) is Zulimat (darkness) as mentioned in Quran. Noor has its opposite but God is beyond comparison for which the word NIRINJIN is used in Ginans.

There is a verse of Saloko Nano which states:

satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10

The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).

The above verse suggests that there are two levels of light. The first level is that of Niraakaar Nirinjan - the formless and unknowable.

Then there is the second level which is the Universal Intellect through which the guidance is given and is manifested in the Pir.

In another Ginan: NarNaklank keri vaat, it is stated:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning,
is indeed in the form of Ali.

Prophet Muhammad the Pir is the manifestation of the guidance (light of intellect). Ali is the manifestation of the Nirinjan.

In another Ginan: Imami aa jugmaanhe jaaniye, it is stated:

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22889

With due respect to Ginans, Pirs have not explained, declared, taught WHAT IS NOOR? How can we understand unvisible and formless Noor. So far we are there from where we started.
There are many levels of light and not only two levels. There is a phrase in Arabic NOORUL ANWAAR which suggests different levels and different directions of Noor.

[kmaherali]

With due respect to Ginans, Pirs have not explained, declared, taught WHAT IS NOOR? How can we understand unvisible and formless Noor. So far we are there from where we started.

That which does not have any form or cannot be described cannot be explained through ordinary means or language. It has to be experienced and that is the reason for having an esoteric tradition and the related practices such as BUK. MHI does not encourage anyone to articulate the experiences of the degrees of noor.

[FreeLancer]

With due respect to Ginans, Pirs have not explained, declared, taught WHAT IS NOOR? How can we understand unvisible and formless Noor. So far we are there from where we started.

That which does not have any form or cannot be described cannot be explained through ordinary means or language. It has to be experienced and that is the reason for having an esoteric tradition and the related practices such as BUK. MHI does not encourage anyone to articulate the experiences of the degrees of noor.

Why the Noor is not explaining what is Noor. We all shall be exited to understand the Noor. Why this narrow window is allowed for BK members only neglecting 7 billion souls. Are these souls do not belong to Noor?

[sheri]

kmaherali said: "Noorani Deedar means a total experience of awe, wonder filled with peace, love and contentment felt by an individual with or without any Zaheri perspective. It is something that is given and not acquired. Noorani Deedar is a subset of Batini Deedar. This is the Deedar that we all must aspire for."

I agree with this - It is a feeling, an emotion, a belief. It's like a baby who is crying and then you give it candy and it will content, in peace etc. The only difference is that the candy is a physical object, while Noor is an unknown. No one knows if it exists, it cannot be proven, and even if you sit in Bait-ul-Khayal or do Ibadat 24 hrs a day, you will never know what Noor is. After doing so much of prayers it is obvious that you will get the feeling as described by kmaherali.

FreeLancer, you won't get any answers for Allah, Noor, Soul etc because they are intangibles. How do we know Allah exists - just because a man (prophet muhammad) told us that Allah exists, hence we believe that Allah exists. Has anyone ever seen or communicated with Allah - out of 7.5 billion people, not a single person knows what is Allah. Similarly, no one knows what is Noor or Soul. All these concepts of Allah, Noor, Soul/Atman, Spirit, Brahman, YHWH, Om etc are a result of a human being telling another human being that all these things exist. There is no way anyone can explain, describe or experience these things.

[kmaherali]

Why the Noor is not explaining what is Noor. We all shall be exited to understand the Noor. Why this narrow window is allowed for BK members only neglecting 7 billion souls. Are these souls do not belong to Noor?

There are limitations of what can be explained through language. The understanding has to come through seeking the Noor. Pir Sadardeen explains in the Ginan verses:

sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re.........................12

O beloved ones, my Lord (attained through this experience) does
not bear any telling (as He is undescribable) and He is nameless.
He can only be seen or experienced.

sakhee alakh anaamee saaheb laagyaa mitthaa re
bhanne peer sadardeen shaah, me najare deetthaa re...............13

O beloved ones, this nameless and indescriptible Lord was felt to
be very sweet to me. Peer Sadardeen teaches this ginaan and says:
"I have seen the Lord with my own (inner)eyes".

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23118

This experience is not confined to those who attend BUK, but rather it is available to anyone who sincerely seeks and makes an effort to understand. There are esoteric/mystical traditions outside of our tariqah for those seeking the light and understanding.

[FreeLancer]

Why the Noor is not explaining what is Noor. We all shall be exited to understand the Noor. Why this narrow window is allowed for BK members only neglecting 7 billion souls. Are these souls do not belong to Noor?

There are limitations of what can be explained through language. The understanding has to come through seeking the Noor. Pir Sadardeen explains in the Ginan verses:

sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re.........................12

O beloved ones, my Lord (attained through this experience) does
not bear any telling (as He is undescribable) and He is nameless.
He can only be seen or experienced.

sakhee alakh anaamee saaheb laagyaa mitthaa re
bhanne peer sadardeen shaah, me najare deetthaa re...............13

O beloved ones, this nameless and indescriptible Lord was felt to
be very sweet to me. Peer Sadardeen teaches this ginaan and says:
"I have seen the Lord with my own (inner)eyes".

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23118

This experience is not confined to those who attend BUK, but rather it is available to anyone who sincerely seeks and makes an effort to understand. There are esoteric/mystical traditions outside of our tariqah for those seeking the light and understanding.

With due respect to ginans, I am not criticizing but to point out that in above ginan of Pir Sadardin,
sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re..
Pir Saheb explains that ' ee tou jova sarikho chhe alakh anaami.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said, " You cannot get water of Noor in your life time".
How come ALAKH, ANNAMI, NIRIJIN, FACELESS, COLORLESS. ODORLESS without address be visible. and approached.
In my opinion it is sensation, feeling, mental state.
JISS KO DEKHA BHI NAHI USS KO KHUDA KAHTEY HAI(N).