Interpretation of various ginans and related concepts

[Admin]

The Ginan section in the new Heritage site has been updated with these translations from first to last post above this one.

There are also translations of the Gugri Ginans in this forum at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... &start=315

You may want to add them.

It will be done.

[erumsuleman]

TO: kmaherali

It is good to see that at least few people are still aware of the subject like "Unpublished Ginans". Apart from this could you please tell the source from which you copied this ginan (MuneDeedar Deedho Mowla)???

[kmaherali]

TO: kmaherali

It is good to see that at least few people are still aware of the subject like "Unpublished Ginans". Apart from this could you please tell the source from which you copied this ginan (MuneDeedar Deedho Mowla)???

I heard it in JK and became eager to find out. It was not in any published books, so I got it from the person who recited it.

[erumsuleman]

Which JK??? Apart from this do you raed khojki or Gujarati??? Or which publications???

[kmaherali]

Which JK??? Apart from this do you raed khojki or Gujarati??? Or which publications???

Franklin & NW JKs in Calgary. I don't read Khojki but do read Gujerati. As mentioned, it is not a published Ginan.

[Admin]

TO: kmaherali

It is good to see that at least few people are still aware of the subject like "Unpublished Ginans". Apart from this could you please tell the source from which you copied this ginan (MuneDeedar Deedho Mowla)???

I heard it in JK and became eager to find out. It was not in any published books, so I got it from the person who recited it.

See also discussion of the year 2009 on this matter at

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... db684805ab

[erumsuleman]

To Kmaherali:

You have done a good effort in presenting this unpublished ginan but we always need to remember that we cannot write down ginan that we collect from a single person. If you hear any such ginan then kindly make sure that the wordings you write are correct.

Let me tell you one thing. I am going to present a paper at a conference in Ireland. The conference details are given on this link.

https://isasr.wordpress.com/2017/03/19/ ... -deadline/

I am presenting unpublished ginans there as a source of Ismaili myths.

Not only this but in the last conference in Ottawa, Canada where Admin had presented the collection of the heritage society, I presented on "Naklanki Gita" and one of my friend presented on "Unpublished Ginans".

You can watch my recording on youtube. The link is given below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31no9WWm540


In conclusion, Please refer to the text of the ginan before posting them with meanings and other details. I am talking about the "Unpublished Ginans".

You can write me personally at [email protected] if you are interested in unpublished ginans. We have hundreds of them in our collection and around 10 to 15 granths as well.

We collect "Unpublished Ginans" by studying the manuscripts.

I will request Admin personally to put the manuscript of Buj Nirinjan as well on the occasion of Diamond Jubilee. We have the oldest manuscript of Buj Nirinjan. Oldest means that no other collection of Ismaili manuscripts contain this much old manuscript of Buj Nirinjan including the collection at IIS, Harvard University and Collection of Heritage Society as well.

[shivaathervedi]

JUST A PIECE OF INFORMATION:
Some time back I attended Sultanabad JK Karachi. In between prayers a lady from Mumbai visiting Karachi recited a Ginan. After ceremonies I asked couple of persons sitting near me," Are you familiar with the Ginan the lady recited?" They replied never heard before. After few days, again she recited the same Ginan in some JK in Garden area. There couple of missionaries who heard that Ginan objected, because that Ginan was no where found in Ginan books. Finally they found she was reciting a popular BHAJAN and not a Ginan.

[Admin]

To Kmaherali:

I am presenting unpublished ginans there as a source of Ismaili myths.

You mean the published ginans are not source of "ismaili myths"?

What would be "ismaili myth" and who is deciding what is "myth" and what is not in the wonderful tradition which has to be kept for children yet to be born?

[Admin]

Mune Deedar Deedhaa Mowla e (unpublished)

Kmaherali need some explanation of the line, you posted of an unpublished Ginan.
PATHAR POOJA HAVEY SHAH NI KARU(N)
You translated," Now I perform the IDOL worship of my Imam".
My question is, Ismailis are against IDOL worship ( PATHAR KE SANAM) then how come such a line be related to Pir Hasan Shah?!!

Since Imam is not a "Pathar," this line obviously mean I will replace the Pathar Puja by the Puja of the Imam, not that i would do Puja of my Pathar Imam

[erumsuleman]

General Message:

"Pathar Puja" also means "Strong Faith" or "Strong or concentrated worship" (Surati Dhiyan).

To Admin:

I didn't get your point. I think Unpublished Ginans is the only untouched topic as a source of Ismaili myths.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
Pattar means object from some type or raw stone ( not an idol /murti).Puja mean prayers that can be dua,namaaz salaat.
This word follows IMMD after the line on kaaba,so the Pir refers to Kabaa as stone.
So here refers that his heart is abode of God and not Kabaa a sstatic black cube of stone.
All shariati are STONE WORSHIPPER may be not full time idol worshipper.
here the word Pattar not murti symbolises Kabaa.
So praying to Kabaa,heart,stone means the same for Pir to express it's point.as in that period shariatis perform prayers around the stone and Hindu prayed to Idol made from different material including stones.

[kmaherali]

Kmaherali need some explanation of the line, you posted of an unpublished Ginan.
PATHAR POOJA HAVEY SHAH NI KARU(N)
You translated," Now I perform the IDOL worship of my Imam".
My question is, Ismailis are against IDOL worship ( PATHAR KE SANAM) then how come such a line be related to Pir Hasan Shah?!!

According to my interpretation of the Ginan, Pir Hasan Shah is considering Kaba and the associated Hajj as Idol worship. Hence worshipping the Imam is idol worship in comparison to the idol worship of those do who perfrom the Hajj. And that kind of idol worshipping and bowing happens all the time. The Imam in the heart is the idol to be worshipped just as Kaba is the idol that is worshipped by the majority.

[shivaathervedi]

Mune Deedar Deedhaa Mowla e (unpublished)

Kmaherali need some explanation of the line, you posted of an unpublished Ginan.
PATHAR POOJA HAVEY SHAH NI KARU(N)
You translated," Now I perform the IDOL worship of my Imam".
My question is, Ismailis are against IDOL worship ( PATHAR KE SANAM) then how come such a line be related to Pir Hasan Shah?!!

Since Imam is not a "Pathar," this line obviously mean I will replace the Pathar Puja by the Puja of the Imam, not that i would do Puja of my Pathar Imam

No doubt Imam is not pathar (stone) but he is Noor e Illahi. Please look at the sentence and flow of words, instead of PATHAR PUJA the words NOORANI PUJA could have been used or Pir Saheb wanted to appease new converties?

[shivaathervedi]

[quote="erumsuleman"]General Message:

"Pathar Puja" also means "Strong Faith" or "Strong or concentrated worship" (Surati Dhiyan).

Erum according to meaning puja is not faith but for concentrated puja pure faith is compulsory. May be Pir Saheb used pathar puja analogy to explain new converties.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad.
Pattar means object from some type or raw stone ( not an idol /murti).Puja mean prayers that can be dua,namaaz salaat.
This word follows IMMD after the line on kaaba,so the Pir refers to Kabaa as stone.
So here refers that his heart is abode of God and not Kabaa a sstatic black cube of stone.
All shariati are STONE WORSHIPPER may be not full time idol worshipper.
here the word Pattar not murti symbolises Kabaa.
So praying to Kabaa,heart,stone means the same for Pir to express it's point.as in that period shariatis perform prayers around the stone and Hindu prayed to Idol made from different material including stones.

In sufism the phrase "KA'ABA E DIL" is common and is used in Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, Gujrati, Punjabi and other languages poetry. When Hajjis perform Hajj they chant LABAIK ALLAHUMA LABIK. KA'ABA is an ancient structure in Mecca and from time of Prophet Abraham Hajj is performed. Prophet Muhammad changed some pagan rituals and introduced Islamic values. Prophet Muhammad, Mowla Ali, Hazrat Hasan, Imam Hussain, Imam Zainul 'Abideen, Imam Baqir, Imam Ja'far Imam Ismail their family members, many Ismaili Da'is performrd Hujj saying LABAIK ALLAHUMA LABAIK; Do you consider them Shariatis? Still today thousands of Ismails all over the world perform Hujj, are they Shariatis?

[shivaathervedi]

Kmaherali need some explanation of the line, you posted of an unpublished Ginan.
PATHAR POOJA HAVEY SHAH NI KARU(N)
You translated," Now I perform the IDOL worship of my Imam".
My question is, Ismailis are against IDOL worship ( PATHAR KE SANAM) then how come such a line be related to Pir Hasan Shah?!!

According to my interpretation of the Ginan, Pir Hasan Shah is considering Kaba and the associated Hajj as Idol worship. Hence worshipping the Imam is idol worship in comparison to the idol worship of those do who perfrom the Hajj. And that kind of idol worshipping and bowing happens all the time. The Imam in the heart is the idol to be worshipped just as Kaba is the idol that is worshipped by the majority.

You have right of your interpretation. But your explanation is confusing. You wrote," Hence worshiping the Imam is IDOL worship in comparison to the IDOL worship of those who perform the Hujj". Further you explained,: The Imam in the heart is the IDOL to be worshiped just as Ka'ba".
Then what is the difference between an idol in heart and Ka'ba, a structure of water and clay/stone and Noor of Imam? I am quoting here some beautiful couplets of Dr. Jawad Nurbukhsh for you and readers.

FARQ AST MIYAA(N) TAA'IF E DIL
BA AA(N) KE NAMUDAH AAB WA GILL HUJJ

What a vast differece lies between those who circle the heart within
And those who circle the house made of water and clay.

DARWESH BRAYEY DOST BASHED
AALAM BUDD AZ BRAYEY DARWESH

The sufi lives for the beloved
The world exists for the sufi

DARWESH AGAR KHUDA NA BASHED
SHAK NEEST KAZ UU JUDA NA BASHED

If the sufi is not himself God
No doubt he is not apart from God

Dr. Jawad Nurbakhsh

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
First was basic level post ,now we go into elementry level before moving into advance levelin next post
In my young age I wrote few poems.
The extract of one verse from it is.
KAABA QURAN TU HAI ALI
YE HAI MERAA DAWA ALI.
JAB DIL MEE BETHAA TU HI ALI .
TO ROJ HOTI HAI HAJJ BHI MERI.
this can be core faith of Sufi and may have been expressed in different ways and language.
If I am praying to ALI in my heart ,Am I praying to stone/idol,bcoz words Kabaa ,hajj is mentioned in the poem?
My own eyes observation.
Pls reply from it.
I have seen a religious shariati ,in his big shop has frame of Kabaa put up particular location.
Every day he circulates agarbatti (incense stich ) and circle Round the frame after opening the shop, akin to a Hindu doing to an idol or frame.He prays openly facing towards the frame and bow down to it.
My question is.
1.Is he praying to Kabaa/stone.?
2.is he commiting shrik ?
3.Is he praying to God with Kaaba as symbol of God in his mind?
Akin to Christian having cross and Jews having tablets as symbol..
As a true Ismaili, we have to do what MHI tells us to do today ,not past imam did physically or personally xxxx years back.
Going with hadith of prophet
Seeing Face of ALI is Ibaadat.
So an Ismaili having image of ALI/MHI as symbol in a frame/etc is nothing less than medium of Ibaadat for him/her,if one know the TRUE status of Ali and see the picture with eyes of his heart,.one will see moist/tears of bliss in one eyes.
That is BEAUTY OF ISMAILSM.
.All bhagats into UNWARRANTED Ginans should be called as Pandits/Scholars as a mark of respect to them.( even Pir Saddardin was called as one).

[Admin]

Still today thousands of Ismails all over the world perform Hujj, are they Shariatis?

Yes.

Lets keep this section clean to contians only various ginan's meaning.

Discussions on the meaning or source or interpretation can continue in the other ginan section, not here.

[kmaherali]

Then what is the difference between an idol in heart and Ka'ba, a structure of water and clay/stone and Noor of Imam? I am quoting here some beautiful couplets of Dr. Jawad Nurbukhsh for you and readers.

FARQ AST MIYAA(N) TAA'IF E DIL
BA AA(N) KE NAMUDAH AAB WA GILL HUJJ

What a vast differece lies between those who circle the heart within
And those who circle the house made of water and clay.

I enjoyed the verses you quoted, very nice!

The definition of an idol is:

-an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

-•a person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered

So both the Imam and the Kaba are idols for worship but of course there is a vast difference as per the poem you have quoted.

Whereas the kaba idol is static, the Imam idol in in constant flux guiding and inspiring constantly.

Mowlana Rumi said:

When you circle a mine you become a ruby. When you circle a Perfect Person you become perfect (you are transformed).

[shivaathervedi]

Then what is the difference between an idol in heart and Ka'ba, a structure of water and clay/stone and Noor of Imam? I am quoting here some beautiful couplets of Dr. Jawad Nurbukhsh for you and readers.

FARQ AST MIYAA(N) TAA'IF E DIL
BA AA(N) KE NAMUDAH AAB WA GILL HUJJ

What a vast differece lies between those who circle the heart within
And those who circle the house made of water and clay.

I enjoyed the verses you quoted, very nice!

The definition of an idol is:

-an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

-•a person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered

So both the Imam and the Kaba are idols for worship but of course there is a vast difference as per the poem you have quoted.

Whereas the kaba idol is static, the Imam idol in in constant flux guiding and inspiring constantly.

Mowlana Rumi said:

When you circle a mine you become a ruby. When you circle a Perfect Person you become perfect (you are transformed).

You omitted other two couplets, wished you should have shed light on them.
You have given goggle definition of the word IDOL but not complete. Google further defines " a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly a FALSE GOD; a likeness of something OBSOLETE; PRETENDER; IMPOSTOR. A form or appearance visible but without substance an enchanted phantom, a lifeless idol".
Please note that Ka'ba is made of clay and water, so is the physical form of SHAH made of clay and water. The difference is Noor. Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali both CIRCUMAMBULATED KA'BA. The discussion is about PATHAR PUJA!!
Mirza Galib said; DIL HIE TOU HAI NA KE SUNG WA KHASHT. Sung means stone (pathar) and khasht means brick. Dil (heart) is not made of stone or brick.....
I wished you should have quoted Rumi's couplet in Farsi to understand proper wordings. You have given meaning," When you circle a mine you become ruby". In my opinion one should merge with the soil/stone to become ruby, a stone circulating any building can not become ruby, it should be nurtured by nature and polished by some one.

[shivaathervedi]

[quote="nuseri"]Ya Ali Madad:
First was basic level post ,now we go into elementry level before moving into advance levelin next post
In my young age I wrote few poems.
The extract of one verse from it is.
KAABA QURAN TU HAI ALI
YE HAI MERAA DAWA ALI.
JAB DIL MEE BETHAA TU HI ALI .
TO ROJ HOTI HAI HAJJ BHI MERI.
this can be core faith of Sufi and may have been expressed in different ways and language.
If I am praying to ALI in my heart ,Am I praying to stone/idol,bcoz words Kabaa ,hajj is mentioned in the poem?
My own eyes observation.
Pls reply from it.
I have seen a religious shariati ,in his big shop has frame of Kabaa put up particular location.
Every day he circulates agarbatti (incense stich ) and circle Round the frame after opening the shop, akin to a Hindu doing to an idol or frame.He prays openly facing towards the frame and bow down to it.


To Nuseri;

Not only a shari'ati Muslim does with photo of Ka'ba or a Hindu does with statue of Ghunpatti bapa, or a Shia with Taziya or a horse, same way an Ismaili Khoja does with photo of Imam circulating agarbattis around the photo and praying. What is the difference in them. What a Shari'ati Muslim is doing same ritual is done by a follower if Imam!! Do you call these followers of Imam Shari'ati?
I asked you a question in my previous post which you did not answered. Let me ask you again:
" Prophet Muhammad, Mowla Ali, Hazrat Hasan, Imam Hussain, Imam Zainul 'Abideen, Imam Baqir, Imam Ja'far Imam Ismail their family members, many Ismaili Da'is performrd Hujj saying LABAIK ALLAHUMA LABAIK; Do you consider them Shariatis? Still today thousands of Ismails all over the world perform Hujj, are they Shariatis"?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Imitating past imam is mimicking some physical tradition and custom deemed fit then is as ignorant as a donkey in today's time.
All Ismailia doing hujj now are shariati inclined out if ignorance the baatin ascept as expressed by many Sufi.
MHI has said ours is SUFI TARIQA and not shatiati tariqat.
As a matter of fact almost all religions of the word have atleast one of more physical symbol for either to pray to God and or pray itself to aa symbol.
We see FACE of living NOOR ,whose value is said by the prophet.
Beauty of Imamat is that they guide to that period and time.
So what past Imams did has nothing to do with us NOW.
as shariat (nursery level) being base evolve with time toward tariqat,Haqiqat& Marifat.
those early imam based on faith level of followers around looked outwardly (Zahiri) shariati ,but what they told of themselves was Haqiqat.(I am the creator ,I am face of God in heavens and earth).
So an ignorant non believer donkey will say Imams were shariatis as well as liars.
Hadith goes as.
Truth is where ALI is.
Quran is with ALI and ALI is with Quran.
Seeing FACE OF ALI is Ibaadat.
So an act of Ismaili gaping at MHI IMAGE can be deemed as submission/Ibaadat ,for other symbols ,one need to reqd true hadith ,,wheter circling agarbatti around black stone image is mockery or Ibaadat..
Meaning of the word idol( static object) and to idolize( like,love,worship) the living/image/reality has different meaning.

[Admin]

He used word donkey twice. May be you like donkeys of his tribe. .

Use of offensive words and insults are not permitted. Whenever I notice this, I delete the whole post. While I do not notice all of the occurrences, I would say I do for most and this has nothing to do with the author of the post. It is your responsibility to remain polite, you have been warned many many times.

[shivaathervedi]

Merely looking at photo of Imam is not an act of ibadat as many non Ismailis and non Muslims also see his photos in news papers and magazines BUT to obey his Farmans is great ibadat and salvation. Imam's current hidayat is " Remember ALLAH throughout the day". True Ismailis do not believe and pray icons, idols, statues, drawings or photos.

No doubt 'Al Haqq is with Ali and Ali is with Al Haqq'. These are two different entities. Al Haqq is attribute name of Allah.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Going with hadith of prophet
Seeing Face of ALI is Ibaadat.
So an Ismaili having image of ALI/MHI as symbol in a frame/etc is nothing less than medium of Ibaadat for him/her,if one know the TRUE status of Ali and see the picture with eyes of his heart.
This is extract of my previous post.only Ismaili believe and see MHI as ALI ,so others do NOT SEE HIM ALI AT ALL.maybe as Agakhan.
While hadith says FACE OF ALI.I have put a rider to pre qualify to that act of Ibaadat.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
Going with hadith of prophet
Seeing Face of ALI is Ibaadat.
So an Ismaili having image of ALI/MHI as symbol in a frame/etc is nothing less than medium of Ibaadat for him/her,if one know the TRUE status of Ali and see the picture with eyes of his heart.
This is extract of my previous post.only Ismaili believe and see MHI as ALI ,so others do NOT SEE HIM ALI AT ALL.maybe as Agakhan.
While hadith says FACE OF ALI.I have put a rider to pre qualify to that act of Ibaadat.

Face of Mowla Ali was seen by pagans, Christians, Jews and none Muslims, was their looking at face of Mowla Ali be considered Ibadat?
By looking at photo and praying is not allowed in Ismailism. 1400 years back the phrase Aga Khan did not existed.
The drawing of Mowla Ali's face (which exists on Heritage site and other Shia places) is fake and there is difference in facial features and body. Mowla Ali was bearded and Shah Karim is not.
My point is just looking at photo and thinking one is doing ibadat is not a free ticket to paradise. Ibadat is Farmanbardari which pave the way for salvation. Ismailis believe in NOOR and they do not have photo of NOOR!!

[Admin]

As Imama Sultan Muhammad Shah said "They look at my photo and they bow to my Noor" Something very difficult to understand for people who are sinking in the vast ocean of Shariah.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
In just one line ,Imam SMS tells who he is.
As per Quran ,a person can only bow to ALI+lah= Allah.
To believe the word Truth is where ALI is in posting is useless and life wasted,gutted but actually believe to the highest level of what Imam tells about their status at times is indeed a blessed status of Haqiqati Ismaili,that itself is a blessing in itself.
all tom dick & harry ( human being) Carry spark of noor (receiver)and GOD/Imam/Ali is bearer/emitter of Noor,the emiiter and bearer has a human body.
That need not to be disbelieved or suspected,
Sunlight in an analogy is light/Noor,it look formless to naked,but in reality they form straight line pattern as rays from the emitter which has FORM and shape.

[shivaathervedi]

As Imama Sultan Muhammad Shah said "They look at my photo and they bow to my Noor" Something very difficult to understand for people who are sinking in the vast ocean of Shariah.

Common sense, photo is not Noor!! A piece of paper or card board can't be Noor of Imam.